|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 16, 2007 17:59:46 GMT -5
This is the mirror to the earlier hero question.
My vote is for Psychosis. I know some of the bigger villians fall into other categories, but CRAZY gets me every time.
|
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 16, 2007 19:38:48 GMT -5
It depends on the villain. To some degree, villains reflect those they oppose and should have character flaws that help highlight the virtues of their opposition. I'm not sure any one characteristic applies to them all.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tana Nile on Apr 16, 2007 23:02:03 GMT -5
I picked zealousness, because I like a really motivated villain! ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 16, 2007 23:22:21 GMT -5
My favorite villians all had a serious hate on for someone, so I think thats gotta be the go-to quality for a bad guy
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 16, 2007 23:34:54 GMT -5
I chose vengeance, because I like villians who hold a grudge against the hero & blame him for their lives going wrong, ala Doom & Reed.
That being said, the crazy, truly insane ones like the Joker are quite interesting, as well...
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 17, 2007 14:54:33 GMT -5
Vengeance. Which is exactly why Hulk is a great villain for WWH  |
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 14:57:30 GMT -5
Doom, do you think of Hulk as a villian here? I hadn't thought about it.
What about this. People he trusted fired him off to who knows where when he was trying to help them.
These are VERY smart people who did this. How can he know they wouldn't try to do it again.
The argument could be made for self-defense.
That being said, it IS all about vengeance tho'
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 17, 2007 15:06:59 GMT -5
You act as though the heroes did it for selfish means though. It was for Bruce's own good as much as anybody else's.
Put it like this.
They took a controversial action which should kill no-one and save lives, and maybe even give Hulk a better life, feeling guilty with themselves but believing it was the only recourse- it's ultimate aim being to save many lives.
Hulk is taking psychotic actions on a personal vendetta against those he feels to have wronged him by invading their country, decimating a city, crushing all who stand in his way and causing insane collateral damage on innocent civilians for his own selfish vengeful ends.
...Now really, Nutcase. Who do you THINK better fits the bill of villain?
IlluminatI-
The Means: Taking a course which kills no-one even if the Hulk is deeply psychologically wounded by it.
The Ends: Saving many scores of lives and maybe even allowing the Hulk a better existence
The Reasons: Hulk was costing innocent lives
Hulk:
The Means: Invasion of New York, going through any who try to stop him, heedless of collateral damage
The Ends: Kill 4 individuals
The Reasons: He feels these 4 have wronged him personally.
No matter what way you stack it up, I can't see how anyone can say Hulk is the hero and the Illuminati the villains.
|
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 17, 2007 15:15:14 GMT -5
no, it being the Hulk, it IS all about vengeance. Rightful angry vengeance tho
|
|
|
|
Post by Shiryu on Apr 18, 2007 3:45:15 GMT -5
Uhm... I voted for greed. In the end villains are always greedy of power/money/acceptance or something else.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 18, 2007 10:46:42 GMT -5
Am I the only one who finds Stupidity out of place here?
|
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Apr 18, 2007 12:10:05 GMT -5
I, too, voted for zealousness. It can lead to a misguided, even noble, villain. Magneto is zealous -- he feels justified in his beliefs. Can we fault him for his ideals? Methodology yes, but his beliefs? Where is the line where opinion becomes wrong... when it is acted upon in a manner that negatively affects others. That's zealousness.
|
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Apr 18, 2007 12:48:38 GMT -5
I believe that there is one major trait common to all major villains -- ego. All major villains are egomaniacs that believe that their way is right, their way is the only way, and their way must be enforced on everyone. The details and the precise goals may differ radically, but it's still about ego.
Dr. Doom -- most definitely about ego. Ultron, Red Skull, Loki, Korvac, Magneto -- all these villains are ego-driven to their goals. I can't think of a major villain that isn't. Once you get down into the common-criminal range then more mundane motivations like money and revenge begin to predominate.
On the other hand, I can't think of a single hero driven by ego. Heroes are largely motivated by self-sacrifice and the greater good.
RSC
|
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Apr 18, 2007 12:51:30 GMT -5
On the other hand, I can't think of a single hero driven by ego. Heroes are largely motivated by self-sacrifice and the greater good. RSC John Walker, the USAgent. I'm not trying to be a pain, but his name immediately leapt to mind when I read your posit.  |
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Apr 18, 2007 13:16:52 GMT -5
John Walker is generally portrayed as an ass, but I don't think he's an egomaniac any more than Quicksilver is an egomaniac.
RSC
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 18, 2007 13:28:17 GMT -5
I don't think ego is anywhere near Magneto's biggest driver though, to be fair.
On the other hand, it's a HUGE factor in Doom beyond doubt. One could argue that several other traits- like his thirst for vengeance- COME from his ego in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Apr 18, 2007 13:50:55 GMT -5
Depends on who's writing Magneto.
If he's "misunderstood anti-hero" Magneto as he has been lately, ego isn't the big factor.
If he's "terrorist tw*t" Magneto, it is.
RSC
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 18, 2007 16:21:00 GMT -5
Yeah, wasn't he a bit of a cardboard villian at the beginning, thoroughly unlikable...? Why would he name his group "Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants" otherwise...?
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 18, 2007 16:25:03 GMT -5
He was, but those were simpler times and that is no more considered to be the defining characterisation of Magneto than we consider the origiginal Wasp, as Phantom and I spoke of lately, to be the true definitive Wasp.
And then there's Grant Morrison "Worst Written Debauchery of a comic character in the history of mankind"'s Magneto.
Seriously, for me Morrison's run was to the X-Men what you consider Bendis to the Avengers.
|
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Apr 18, 2007 16:25:47 GMT -5
Going off on a tangent, I hate the idea of "sympathetic, misunderstood Magneto," together with the trend in general to revamp thugs into "sympathetic, misunderstood" thugs.
He's a terrorist that deserves a bullet in the head.
Part of that is probably because I don't identify at all with the whole "we're so put-upon and angsty" X-Men vibe that has made them successful with a certain audience, and I suppose has been a factor in "legitimizing" Magneto's behavior.
RSC
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 18, 2007 16:27:42 GMT -5
It seems we radically disagree once more. Claremont took a 2-dimensional moron with nothing to distinguish him, and made him into one of, in my opinion, the deepest characters in comics. I can certainly think of no other villain with such complexity and motivation as a well written Magneto.
The big thing with Magnus is that I think if anyone wnet through what he had, they'd turn out the exact same way. I sure as Hell would, maybe MORE genocidal!
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 18, 2007 16:48:43 GMT -5
It seems we radically disagree once more. Claremont took a 2-dimensional moron with nothing to distinguish him, and made him into one of, in my opinion, the deepest characters in comics. I can certainly think of no other villain with such complexity and motivation as a well written Magneto. The big thing with Magnus is that I think if anyone wnet through what he had, they'd turn out the exact same way. I sure as Hell would, maybe MORE genocidal! Well, MOST people, anyway... A Gandhi, a Mother Teresa or a Martin Luther King Jr. wouldn't have... |
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 18, 2007 16:58:04 GMT -5
If the Hulk had realized what they were up to and killed them before they put him on the ship, you could make a case for self-defense. The current situation is strictly vengeance. That's not to say I'd be sorry if Tony got his azz kicked righteously by the Hulk. Perhaps Bruce could use Reed for a slingshot to launch Tony into orbit, having first pinched shut his boot jet nozzles! |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 18, 2007 17:03:06 GMT -5
[quote author=ua2 board=general thread=1176764386 post=1176932923
Well, MOST people, anyway... A Gandhi, a Mother Teresa or a Martin Luther King Jr. wouldn't have... [/quote]
No, honestly I wonder if they would have. After all, you listed three people who had ENORMOUS faith in their own beliefs... but I must wonder if the experience of the Holocaust would make even the most prayerful of people wonder if there was a God.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 18, 2007 17:36:42 GMT -5
[quote author=ua2 board=general thread=1176764386 post=1176932923 Well, MOST people, anyway... A Gandhi, a Mother Teresa or a Martin Luther King Jr. wouldn't have... No, honestly I wonder if they would have. After all, you listed three people who had ENORMOUS faith in their own beliefs... but I must wonder if the experience of the Holocaust would make even the most prayerful of people wonder if there was a God.[/quote] Well, sure, Doom, I think no sane person could experience such enormous display of Mankind's proclivity for evil & madness unscathed, without doubts which would shake their souls to the core; but there are, there were, IMO, always those few truly special spirits who manage to survive, heal, grow & become more... Those who are the true heroes & inspiration for us all... Every century produces at least a few... The former Pope, John Paul II (incidentally NOT a man I agreed with in many topics, but a man of peace, nonetheless) knew from personal experience of those camps, and yet he advocated forgiveness all his life & persued a career in the Church, and I'm sure if we would research we would find more examples like his. |
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 19, 2007 11:12:20 GMT -5
The Former Pope, mind you, is a man I CAN agree with on almost ALL topics, which is in some vague way possibly due to my Catholicism Anyway, I take your point, but even so my own remains essentially the same; Karol Wotjyla did not lose his entire family, he did not have his child burnt alive before his very eyes, he did not spend his entire life, both child AND adult, persecuted for being different. THe point is, if any regular person went through what Erik Magnus Lensherr did, I doubt we'd be able to find fault in his motivation, it's what makes him such a phenomenal character. |
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Apr 19, 2007 11:28:01 GMT -5
I disagree here.
Those that survived the camps went through the same trauma that Magneto (a fictional character) did. They lost all their possessions, their land, their vocations, and usually most of their families. They were brutalized for years (even before the war) and had to see things on a daily basis that no one should ever have to see.
And when they were liberated, what did they do?
If we are to believe Claremont's characterization, they all picked up the nearest rifle and started shooting non-Jews. Or they went back to society and became serial-killers.
Of course this is false. The vast, vast majority tried to remake their lives and went back to a sense of normalcy as much as that was possible. If the real people can do it, Magneto can do it.
Notwithstanding Claremont's contentions, Magneto is a murderer and a terrorist who uses the Holocaust as an excuse to be a murderer and terrorist.
RSC
|
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Apr 19, 2007 11:59:20 GMT -5
Well-stated, RSC. As somewhat of a Holocaust scholar, I find your characterization of not only survivors but Claremont's interpretation of same spot-on.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 19, 2007 14:10:17 GMT -5
Have to disagree again. I'm not denying that they picked up and moved on but they didn't have his powers to cause EXTRA stress, plus what he endured afterwards. In fact, many many Holocaust survivors went on to believe almost anything was persecution- hence why in the United States today, almost anything can be called anti-semitism, to completely ridiculous degrees like even remotely sympathising with the Palestinians in the current tragedy.
I think it's very far from unreasonable to suggest that someone like Magneto coming through that, and then with the further death of his daughter, would believe humanity could never accept that. I'm not saying all Holocaust survivors would automatically do that, I'm saying it's certainly evident why someone put through that would believe humanity cannot tolerate minorities.
There's a reason that's often listed as one of the best Marvel retcons ever, there's a reason why it stuck while so many other similar late-added origins and whatnot failed. You're free to disagree, but as I say for myself it's the best origin and motive of any villain in any comic ever created.
No, I disagree intensely. I'd say if we believe Claremont's characterization they all tried to get back to normal deeply scarred by prior events but things could never really be fully normal, not for them.
And I'd say THAT is spot on.
|
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 19, 2007 17:05:15 GMT -5
The Former Pope, mind you, is a man I CAN agree with on almost ALL topics, which is in some vague way possibly due to my Catholicism Anyway, I take your point, but even so my own remains essentially the same; Karol Wotjyla did not lose his entire family, he did not have his child burnt alive before his very eyes, he did not spend his entire life, both child AND adult, persecuted for being different. THe point is, if any regular person went through what Erik Magnus Lensherr did, I doubt we'd be able to find fault in his motivation, it's what makes him such a phenomenal character. I sincerely apologize, Doom, if in any shape or form I offended or slighted your religious beliefs...  I was just trying to state clearly that I wasn't using him as an example because he was someone close to my beliefs or ideology... But I said it in a most inelegant & clumsy way... |
|
