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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 25, 2009 17:37:03 GMT -5
Wow, thanks scottharris, I nearly forgot how great those New Mutants covers were. Usually the covers were the best part of the entire comic. That #39 was always one of my favorites (hubba-hubba), and alot of the Scienkiewicz stuff, too.
Hey, does anyone recommend the new New Mutants series?? I'm skeptical to pick up new stuff without a little heads-up.
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Post by sharkar on Jun 25, 2009 17:49:07 GMT -5
I've never heard of that reference-- "Pieta cover"-- any background on its origins? I've seen the term used at times to describe any cover that depicts a person grieving over an inert body he/she is carrying in his/her arms--so, visually similar to Michelangelo's Pietà (and as you mentioned, the basic image is iconic). The covers I mentioned are some examples, so is (it almost goes without saying) the Superman/Supergirl Crisis on Infinite Earths cover...though obviously, strictly speaking a cover such as the Death of Captain Marvel gn would be a closer match. Some other terms I've seen to describe this genre of covers are "fallen friend" or "fallen warrior" covers; but I think Pietà cover is catchier--so that's why I used it! That reminds me, would the Avengers 49 cover posted by Sharkar be called a Pieta Pietro or a Pietro Pieta? LMAO! Spiderwasp, consider yourself exalted! ;D
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Post by scottharris on Jun 25, 2009 17:53:47 GMT -5
Usually the covers were the best part of the entire comic. This is the truth. I almost said as much when I posted the pictures. In fact, I actually couldn't stand New Mutants for the first half a year I was reading it. At the time I just loved comics so much I would read anything whether I liked it or not, and this included New Mutants #29-35. Hated the art from Sienkiewicz, though I can appreciate now what he was doing (still don't like it, though). My feeling towards New Mutants did a 180 from hate to instant love when I purchased New Mutants Special #1 in 1985. This remains one of my favorite stories, with the awesome, awesome Art Adams artwork (he's never done better) and the story of the New Mutants getting scattered throughout Asgard (at the time the Simonson Thor had just finished the Ragnarok epic and was one of my favorite titles). Sadly, nothing after this special came close to recapturing the magic and though I kept reading New Mutants for another several years, I was almost always disappointed. They frequently had excellent covers thanks to Barry Windsor Smith and Art Adams, but almost never delivered (and don't get me started on the godawful Bret Blevins era, which made me want to gouge my eyes out to ensure I never had to see his art again). One notable exception: on his blog, Tom Brevoort recently asked people to name a comic book that had a deep emotional impact on them, and several people came up with New Mutants #45, which was, in fact, a really great stand alone story by Claremont. But the rest of the series was a collection of disjointed, disappointing stops and starts that eventually went nowhere.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 25, 2009 18:37:07 GMT -5
Yeah, for me, I hated seeing the New Mutants in the "magical" realm, like the Magick or Asgard storylines. For me, they were mutants who should battle other mutants (the Hellions were great adversaries) or supervillains, but they were way outclassed when fighting Norse gods or demons, IMO. The early stuff was my favorite, and the early covers and the Scienkiewicz covers were why I picked up New Mutants, tho when I look back, it was sporadically, since the stories usually weren't my cup of tea.
Anyone remember the early 80's images from the back of most Marvel comics (circa 83-84), one was a group shot from the waist up, really cool, and the other was Kitty crying because "You'll never be good enough for the X-babies!" ?? Marvel really tried to push the title back then, before they realized that all they had to do was call a book "X-whatever" and it would fly off the shelves, regardless of quality.
It's nice to reminisce about stuff I haven't thought about in a loooong time. My friends never got into New Mutants, it was too weird, I think. But, alas, I always have been a sucker for a great cover.
BTW, the top 70 list is super-weak.
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Post by scottharris on Jun 25, 2009 19:48:20 GMT -5
You know, as much as I love the Asgard story, I agree. I didn't like all the magic stuff, mainly because I couldn't stand Majik (aka Illyana Rasputin, the sister of Colossus). Just could not stand her, and I still don't like her now. And that was before I fully realized she was one of those "kid artificially aged to adulthood" characters, whom I loathe without exception.
Thinking back on it, New Mutants had to be one of the most random, directionless titles Marvel published. It seemed like there were no ongoing plots at all, it just randomly bounced from aliens to magic to time travel to whatever without warning or logic. Good characters, good premise, really iffy execution.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 25, 2009 20:11:03 GMT -5
Yeah, Magick sucked, and I can't believe they recently went back to her for X-Infernus or whatever such nonsense.
The characters DEFINITELY were the glue for the whole shaky series, IMO. I believe it was Claremont's idea, and it seems he fell back on what worked for the X-men. Diversity.
A country boy, a Latino, a Scot (or Irish?), an Asian, an American Indian (I hated the name Psyche, tho, Moonstar worked much better). Even Magma (can't even type that without hearing Dr. Evil's voice, ha-ha), yeah, Magma could have really worked as a Stranger-in-a-strange-land type, but was never really explored.
And Legion was a fantastic premise (although at my young age I questioned Prof. X having a bastard child). And Scienkiewicz was PERFECT for the Legion story, his scrambled inner thoughts.... Scienkiewicz was great at depicting what I could only compare to as nightmares. But the Demon Bear, and cowboys, etc. etc., it just got too weird and confusing. By the #60's, it was just total garbage (although I enjoyed the Acts of Vengeance issues).
If the New Mutants had fought the Wrecking Crew or the Brotherhood (etc...) every issue, with that diverse and thoughtfully characterized team, man, it would have been one of the best, IMHO. And sadly, we'll probably never see the original black/yellow costumes get the Marvel Legends treatment.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 25, 2009 20:15:22 GMT -5
You know, as much as I love the Asgard story, I agree. I didn't like all the magic stuff, mainly because I couldn't stand Majik (aka Illyana Rasputin, the sister of Colossus). Just could not stand her, and I still don't like her now. And that was before I fully realized she was one of those "kid artificially aged to adulthood" characters, whom I loathe without exception. Thinking back on it, New Mutants had to be one of the most random, directionless titles Marvel published. It seemed like there were no ongoing plots at all, it just randomly bounced from aliens to magic to time travel to whatever without warning or logic. Good characters, good premise, really iffy execution. Y'know, I've got the whole flippin' run of that title. Even well past the point where it was re-christened. . . X-FORCE, was it? And it turned into a Rob Liefeld "hot artist" thingy. But I can hardly recall any particularly memorable story arcs. I have a vague memory of Doug getting killed and Warlock sort of possessing him ("Douglock")--- but none of the surrounding circumstances. Lots of mutant angst swooshed around w/ teen angst. Something about Charles & Moira's extremely dangerous insane mutant son trying to destroy reality? In retrospect, I think there was a sense of Marvel trying 'WAY TOO HARD to make this a "hot" title, and forcing it to be bigger/faster/edgier/hipper than its initial vision dictated. This particular group of teenagers was about as UN-hip as you could ever hope for. Primarily figurative and/or literal wallflowers, god bless 'em. And that was their charm for the first 10 issues or so, I do remember that. Boy, yeah-- I do remember that White Queen cover, now! Kinda had to just slip that one into the stack so's the girlfriend (now wife) wouldn't give me the ol' hairy eyeball. . . HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 25, 2009 20:24:14 GMT -5
I've never heard of that reference-- "Pieta cover"-- any background on its origins? I've seen the term used at times to describe any cover that depicts a person grieving over an inert body he/she is carrying in his/her arms--so, visually similar to Michelangelo's Pietà (and as you mentioned, the basic image is iconic). The covers I mentioned are some examples, so is (it almost goes without saying) the Superman/Supergirl Crisis on Infinite Earths cover...though obviously, strictly speaking a cover such as the Death of Captain Marvel gn would be a closer match. Some other terms I've seen to describe this genre of covers are "fallen friend" or "fallen warrior" covers; but I think Pietà cover is catchier--so that's why I used it! That reminds me, would the Avengers 49 cover posted by Sharkar be called a Pieta Pietro or a Pietro Pieta? LMAO! Spiderwasp, consider yourself exalted! ;D Three solid responses to my question-- thanks all, you're most helpful and quite kind. And the Michaelangelo statue that scottharris showed us is exactly the one that was tugging at my memory. I knew I'd seen it somewhere. . . HB
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Post by scottharris on Jun 25, 2009 20:30:59 GMT -5
Ugh, now I am remembering all the things I didn't like about New Mutants. Magma was one of them. I have to also say I'm probably the only person in the world who will admit that Doug Ramsey was my favorite member of the team. The story where he got killed should have been a moving classic, but the art by Bret Blevins instead makes it a permanent blot on human existence. Douglock was TERRIBLE, and as annoying as Warlock had become by that time they should have just killed them both off, because once Douglock came around he was completely ruined forever. Just thinking about those issues is making me reach for my barf bag.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 25, 2009 20:41:38 GMT -5
Warlock was pretty weak, IMO, but I remember a bit of an uproar over the death of-----Cypher!?!? Yeah, the ultimate mutant translator. boo-hoo.
There was also a mutant in the Beauty and the Beast mini-series whose power was the ability to change an objects color. wow.
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Post by scottharris on Jun 25, 2009 21:05:12 GMT -5
There was also a mutant in the Beauty and the Beast mini-series whose power was the ability to change an objects color. wow. In a strange way, this reminds me of one of my all-time favorite series, D.P. 7. You know, much has been made of the X-Men and the metaphor where all those poor mutants were shunned and hated because they were different. Well, D. P. 7 had an interesting take on this. In this series, the people with powers were also outcast and banded together for mutual support. Except, there was this one guy in the series who had a power where he was constantly mutating, every day into a new, weird or gross shape and he couldn't control it. And what happened? The people with powers who could control thieir powers and looked more human shunned him and made him an outcast because he was too different. I really liked this kind of realism. Kind of like the Moorlocks in X-Men before they killed them all off, actually.
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Post by redstatecap on Jun 25, 2009 21:14:26 GMT -5
This list is heavily biased toward pushing current titles. I'll be frank and say that the vast majority of those 70 covers aren't worthy. In fact, I think that only 10 of those 70 are legitimate choices: Secret Wars #10, which deserves to be higher than 61. IM #128 @ 59 CA #111 @ 49 CA #1 @ 41 deserves, IMHO, to be at or near #1. It is THE golden-age cover. X-Men #137 @ 31 Hulk #1 @ 29 X-Men #1 @ 26 ASM # 39 @ 25 Avengers #57 @ 16 deserves to be at or near #1. Amazing Fantasy #15 @ 2
RSC
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Post by sharkar on Jun 25, 2009 22:09:21 GMT -5
I'm glad to see Steranko represented, and there are some other good selections. But as everyone here has said, some of the "winners" (and rankings) are just odd. Some people on the messages boards there are complaining that several worthy covers (including covers some of you have mentioned here, such as Avengers #223 and Silver Surfer #4) were not included in the list of nominees. The moderator responded by saying that anyone could suggest covers, but people there are saying that the option to do so was not clear or evident on the site. Here's the Captain Marvel cover I mentioned earlier.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 25, 2009 22:55:34 GMT -5
I have to also say I'm probably the only person in the world who will admit that Doug Ramsey was my favorite member of the team. I'll admit it. I really liked Doug too. Yes, his powers were pretty useless but that's what makes him special. I get tired of characters with the power of exploding suns. They bore me. Doug had heart and humor and is one of the few things I actually remember about this series because he was special amongst mutants. R.I.P. Doug Ramsey. Wait, he is still dead isn't he? With Marvel, you can never tell. There was also a mutant in the Beauty and the Beast mini-series whose power was the ability to change an objects color. wow. But I think that was the point. Not all mutant abilities had to be combat oriented. However, that character could have turned the tide of the the classic Warlock vs. Impossible Man battle. The only reason Impy had to concede that he couldn't do everything that Warlock could was because Impy couldn't change color. That was actually my favorite New Mutants story ever.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 26, 2009 9:20:22 GMT -5
I have to also say I'm probably the only person in the world who will admit that Doug Ramsey was my favorite member of the team. I'll admit it. I really liked Doug too. Yes, his powers were pretty useless but that's what makes him special. I get tired of characters with the power of exploding suns. They bore me. Doug had heart and humor and is one of the few things I actually remember about this series because he was special amongst mutants. R.I.P. Doug Ramsey. Wait, he is still dead isn't he? With Marvel, you can never tell. There was also a mutant in the Beauty and the Beast mini-series whose power was the ability to change an objects color. wow. But I think that was the point. Not all mutant abilities had to be combat oriented. However, that character could have turned the tide of the the classic Warlock vs. Impossible Man battle. The only reason Impy had to concede that he couldn't do everything that Warlock could was because Impy couldn't change color. That was actually my favorite New Mutants story ever. Boy, we have a lot of conversations going on in this one thread! Kinda neat. I, too, was very fond of Doug, and I think it took the heart out of this already rather-confused title when they killed/morphed him. BUT-- the fact that he was right in there, fist & glove, next to his super-powered teammates in extremely dangerous, life-threatening situations-- with NO protection whatsoever-- was the HEIGHT of ludicrous irresponsibility! Everyone else has been trained to use their powers to defend themselves (should be the FIRST aspect of training, in fact)-- Doug's only hope is to find a place to hide. He should never once have been out in the field, regardless of how he felt about it. As an unmarried younger reader at the time of publication, I kind of thought, "Cool, he wants to pull his own weight. Good for him!". As a parent, now, of a similar-aged child, I'm thinking, "Somebody (Xavier?) should have been nailed to the wall for allowing hime to ever be in that kind of peril!" Makes my blood boil. HB
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Doctor Bong
West Coast Avenger
Master of Belly Dancing (no, really...)!
Posts: 49
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 26, 2009 13:11:45 GMT -5
I'll admit it. I really liked Doug too. Yes, his powers were pretty useless but that's what makes him special. I get tired of characters with the power of exploding suns. They bore me. Doug had heart and humor and is one of the few things I actually remember about this series because he was special amongst mutants. R.I.P. Doug Ramsey. Wait, he is still dead isn't he? With Marvel, you can never tell. But I think that was the point. Not all mutant abilities had to be combat oriented. However, that character could have turned the tide of the the classic Warlock vs. Impossible Man battle. The only reason Impy had to concede that he couldn't do everything that Warlock could was because Impy couldn't change color. That was actually my favorite New Mutants story ever. Boy, we have a lot of conversations going on in this one thread! Kinda neat. I, too, was very fond of Doug, and I think it took the heart out of this already rather-confused title when they killed/morphed him. BUT-- the fact that he was right in there, fist & glove, next to his super-powered teammates in extremely dangerous, life-threatening situations-- with NO protection whatsoever-- was the HEIGHT of ludicrous irresponsibility! Everyone else has been trained to use their powers to defend themselves (should be the FIRST aspect of training, in fact)-- Doug's only hope is to find a place to hide. He should never once have been out in the field, regardless of how he felt about it. As an unmarried younger reader at the time of publication, I kind of thought, "Cool, he wants to pull his own weight. Good for him!". As a parent, now, of a similar-aged child, I'm thinking, "Somebody (Xavier?) should have been nailed to the wall for allowing hime to ever be in that kind of peril!" Makes my blood boil. HB But belly, I think underage sidekicks are pretty much a time-honored convention of the genre, like secret identities or the fact that superheroes are allowed to operate as crimefighters... since it's clearly not the real world we're talking about, I think this is one of those cases when we ought to let our ol' suspension of disbelief take the wheel; otherwise, trained or not trained, neither Bucky, Toro, Robin(s) or Kid Flash should have ever been allowed to wear the tights either. Even if I do get what you're saying, that Cypher didn't have any defensive or offensive powers in a combat situation, if we follow this approach to it's logical conclusion, none of them should have been risking their lives and (if we apply Real World logic to it) their adult counterparts were irresponsible and crazy for allowing it.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 26, 2009 14:19:29 GMT -5
[quote author=burundanga board=general thread=2609 post=31008 time=1246039905But belly, I think underage sidekicks are pretty much a time-honored convention of the genre, like secret identities or the fact that superheroes are allowed to operate as crimefighters... since it's clearly not the real world we're talking about, I think this is one of those cases when we ought to let our ol' suspension of disbelief take the wheel; otherwise, trained or not trained, neither Bucky, Toro, Robin(s) or Kid Flash should have ever been allowed to wear the tights either. Even if I do get what you're saying, that Cypher didn't have any defensive or offensive powers in a combat situation, if we follow this approach to it's logical conclusion, none of them should have been risking their lives and (if we apply Real World logic to it) their adult counterparts were irresponsible and crazy for allowing it.[/quote]
Oh, I know, I know-- and I'm falling into the realm of splitting nonsensical hairs in the fantasy world of superheroes. But still-- any one of the four sidekicks you mentioned I would happily recruit as a New Mutant (well, if they were mutants), because they all either have super-powers or are superb athletes and intensely trained fighters. Doug was neither-- he was just a kid! Not even particularly athletic, if I recall. Pretty much the kind of person superheroes are supposed to be protecting, not recruiting.
But you're ultimately right, of course-- it's simply necessary to suspend the ol' disbelief, or you've got no story at all. (I mean, as a parent, the entire run of Power Pack makes me go EEEEYAAARRRRRGGHHHH!!!-- much as I enjoyed a bunch of it! You think your kids are asleep in their beds, and it turns out their blowing up spaceships two galaxies away?? Or fighting demons in Manhattan?? No wonder their Mom went catatonic. . . )
HB
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Post by scottharris on Jun 26, 2009 17:17:49 GMT -5
The issue of Doug not having powers but still putting himself in danger was one of the main themes with the character at the time, which made his eventual death even more impactful (other than the horrific Bret Blevins non-art). One of the things that contributed to this was the fact that they didn't really have a responsible mentor guiding them at this time. After Xavier's heart attack in X-Men #200, he went into space to recover and the New Mutants were left in the care of Magneto. But he soon vanished also, and following the Mutant Massacre, the New Mutants were basically adrift, doing their own thing without much supervision form the X-Men, who were kind of busy with their own pointless nonsense.
If I had to pin the blame on anyone for Doug's death, I'd have to stick it on Storm, who was the leader of the X-Men and by extension the guardian of the New Mutants and who should have taken a more active role in their development.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jun 26, 2009 18:03:47 GMT -5
Hmm. Also, didn't Conan used to have an awful lot of good covers? You mean like this? or maybe this: If Barry's not to your tastes, how about another pieta cover: But this is one of my personal favorites (I could do without the 'frame' though): That Smith kid was good! His Conan might have been a might slender (I think JB really nailed Conan's look), but his sense of design and the detail are fantastic. And I really dug Conan's necklace way back when!
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Post by dlw66 on Jun 26, 2009 20:30:43 GMT -5
Hmm. Also, didn't Conan used to have an awful lot of good covers? You mean like this? [That Smith kid was good! His Conan might have been a might slender (I think JB really nailed Conan's look), but his sense of design and the detail are fantastic. And I really dug Conan's necklace way back when! I am guessing that the main reason the Conan covers weren't on the list is due to Marvel not owning the copyright to the character any more. Dark Horse currently has it, including the rights to reprint and sell the Marvel stories of yore!! Of course, no one voting on that list would know anything about those beautiful covers Tana posted anyway...
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Post by scottharris on Jun 28, 2009 2:30:16 GMT -5
Hmm. Also, didn't Conan used to have an awful lot of good covers? You mean like this? Those are some sweet covers; BWS had quite a few classics. This is my favorite Conan cover:
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Post by scottharris on Jun 28, 2009 4:23:17 GMT -5
A couple comics that absolutely should be on any Top 70 Marvel Cover list. The first appearance of Ghost Rider, an all-time great cover from Mike Ploog: This is so awesome, I bought a copy for my collection just for the cover alone:
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Post by scottharris on Jun 28, 2009 16:45:43 GMT -5
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Post by scottharris on Jun 28, 2009 18:23:05 GMT -5
I had to post a couple other G. I Joe covers from my childhood:
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Post by scottharris on Jun 28, 2009 18:48:18 GMT -5
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 28, 2009 21:19:41 GMT -5
Michael Golden Micronauts... Those were some of the most compelling covers I'd ever seen. I'll leave it up to one of you wizards to post the images on the board if you want to see them. I'll just toss a link up here. marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Micronauts/Covers
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