Are the big events overlapping too much?

[freedomfighter]

I won't go into too much detail on the subject. I was poised to provide examples, but it's a gut reaction and opinion really. It just feels like we couldn't really understand the ramifications of decimation and House of M because Civil War came right in its wake and then World War Hulk, and before New York could even rebuild, the Skrulls came along. Now we've got a villain event coming and War of Kings and I'm thinking, it's just too much. In Marvel time, all of this must be happening in less than a year. Too much to explore in such a short period of time.

[woodside]

Yes and no.

Basically, Marvel has two kind of events going on.

1) The first type is the wide-scale event, one reaching a more vast amount of Marvel titles. Disassembled, House of M, Civil War, the Intiative World War Hulk, and Secret Invasion all apply here.

2) The second type is the more scaled down events, where the crossover only impacts the other comics in it's group. For example -- the X-Men had Decimation, Endangered Species, Messiah CompleX, Divided We Stand, and the up-coming Manifest Destiny. Spider-Man had the Other, Back in Black, One More Day and now Brand New Day.

The problem is not so much "too much in a small amount of time" as it is the massive continunity issues. For example, try and get World War Hulk, Fallen Son, and Mighty Avengers # 1-12/New Avengers # 27-39 to fit together. It's just about impossible. If there's a problem, it's there.

I don't mind that Marvel is doing an event to event thing, though I should point out that "War of Kings" will be fairly contained (along the scale of "Annihilation"), and that there's not supposed to be that huge of an event most of '09 due to a need to wrap things up (as paraphrased from San Diego).

[dlw66]

As the '90's were marked by endless crossovers, gimmick covers, and 4-times-per-month Spidey, Superman, et al., the '00's will be marked by the "big event".

[Tana Nile]

Personally, I am suffering from Big Event Fatigue. This goes for both Marvel and DC. I'd like to go a year at least without any huge company-wide event. These events lose any sense of being special when they happen all the time.

[starfoxxx]

Is it me or is Secret Invasion making a total mess of the New and Mighty avengers titles or what?

It just seems like no one is posting about the current/new AVENGERS books in an AVENGERS forum.

Personally, I'm enjoying ALOT of other books, and just hoping Secret Invasion will go away......


The only DC book I read regularly is JLA, and JSA is getting really interesting, so i might start picking it up, too. I don't know how you guys/gals who are big DC fans can keep up with all the DC Big Events, (talk about overlapping, they sure know how to OVER-DO it, IMO. I seriously doubt this will be the FINAL crisis....)

Lately, I have to say ...... MAKE MINE MILLAR, uh, I mean MARVEL!

[spiderwasp]

Aug 15, 2008 17:30:26 GMT -5 starfoxxx said:

Is it me or is Secret Invasion making a total mess of the New and Mighty avengers titles or what?

It just seems like no one is posting about the current/new AVENGERS books in an AVENGERS forum.

Personally, I'm enjoying ALOT of other books, and just hoping Secret Invasion will go away......


Lately, I have to say ...... MAKE MINE MILLAR, uh, I mean MARVEL!

I couldn't agree more. I have nothing against the discussion of old books but I come hear primarily to discuss Avengers. The problem is, there's nothing to discuss. New Avengers hasn't felt like an Avengers book to me (And quite a few others) for some time, Mighty Avengers now belongs to Nick Fury and the Skrulls, Young Avengers is just getting started with a new story (Which, once again, they don't get to carry alone) so it's too early to say much there and the Initiative is...well... the Initiative. Like it or hate it, it's got about as much to do with the Avengers as...uhm, Mighty Avengers. Hmmm, that point wasn't as easy to make as I was hoping.
Of course we can always discuss Secret Invasion which does involve the Avengers so here goes:

Hey everybody! Have you heard? Hank Pym was replaced by a Skrull. Oh and in further news- Hank Pym isn't Hank Pym. He's a Skrull. And also, everything we've read about Yellowjacket over the past year - well, it turns out it was a Skrull. Oh yeah, Elektra was replaced too. That was about a year ago but it's still big news. There's also a good chance that some other folks were replaced too- just like (Are you ready for this?) HANK PYM.

Does anyone have anything to add?

[Doctor Doom]

Eh, I can wait until December. I just read Secret Invasion as the sole Avengers book, with heavy guest-stars.

[steed]

Spiderwasp hit the nail on the head. Will something please happen in one of these books? I'm sooooo tired of all these "Big Events" being tailored around selling a graphic novel or compilation book a month after the regular series.

Here are my 3 big beefs with big events,

1. I'm tired of feeling that I missed something or that I'm reading something I read before. In the good old days they used to footnote where events referenced in a story happened. Stan and Roy Thomas were the kings of the footnote. Why did both Marvel and DC stop? If I missed something and they told me where it was I would go buy that book. Lets face it, Secret Invasion needs a ton of footnotes.

2. Will something please happen in a $3 book. C'mon. The artwork in most of this stuff sucks on ice. Can't the story at least be a story? Being an old timer I'm used to spending $.12 to $.50 for something to happen. (God, I'm as old as dirt. There isn't even a "cent" sign on my keyboard.) I'm not kidding, look at books that came out 25 years ago. Things happened. Not today. Christ, between the horrible artwork (when they discover that Electra was a Skrull I had no idea by the artwork. Fortunately the bad writing clued me in.) and the lazy writing, nothing happens anymore. Not just in Marvel, DC sucks just as bad. The latest issues of the JSA are annoying. The FF is worse. DO SOMETHING FOR CHRIST SAKE!!!!!!

3. Lastly, I'm sick to death of stories that could have been told in 3 issues being dragged out to 6 issues because they want to sell the whole story as a graphic novel. Both DC and Marvel do it. Please, stop it. Some stories are only supposed to be 3 issues long. It reads better. Stop looking at the bottom line and write better book.

[dlw66]

What he said.

Steed, if there was a +50 karma button, you'd have gotten it. You'll just have to settle for the 1 I could dole out.

[Dr. Hank Pym]

Steed also gets a +1 karma from me, too! That perfectly sums up the problems with the current big event out there right now!

Honestly, I just wish that the Big Event's would be over with, and the Mighty Avengers could go back to being about the team, because I would love to see the actual Mighty Avengers team for the first time, since I've heard that they're like the Avengers of old. Is this Secret Invasion really selling any books, to justify how d**n long it is? When is it going to end? Does anyone know?

[The EVIL Dr. Bolty]

Aug 15, 2008 10:13:06 GMT -5 Tana Nile said:

Personally, I am suffering from Big Event Fatigue. This goes for both Marvel and DC. I'd like to go a year at least without any huge company-wide event. These events lose any sense of being special when they happen all the time.

Yeah...the only readable comics from the big two these days seem to be the little guys who are affected as little as possible by the crossover-a-rama (IE Blue Beetle).

[Doctor Doom]

Aug 18, 2008 14:40:43 GMT -5 Dr. Hank Pym said:

Honestly, I just wish that the Big Event's would be over with, and the Mighty Avengers could go back to being about the team, because I would love to see the actual Mighty Avengers team for the first time, since I've heard that they're like the Avengers of old. Is this Secret Invasion really selling any books, to justify how d**n long it is? When is it going to end? Does anyone know?

It ends in November and yes, it's selling INCREDIBLY well, the main title has been number one in the charts by a wide, wide margin and all tie-in book sales are being bumped quite considerably too. Not as much as Civil War, but more than WWH or House of M.

[freedomfighter]

I'll add a couple of things to this one.
First I'm not merely concerned with sales. To me being able to push multiple covers better than the other guy isn't impressive to me. That has as much to do with marketing as anything else and doesn't speak to the quality of the product.
However here are some numbers at least so people can gauge on their own the relative success of the product. Myself I think a storyline that has supposedly been in the works for several years should be doing a little better...
I'm also glad that the guy at newsarama doesn't entirely understand the way they chart this stuff, and thinks it should be simplified as do I
blog.newsarama.com/2008/06/16/that-has-to-hurt/
www.newsarama.com/comics/080721-diamond-june-sales.html
I especially like Marc Oliver Frisch who really examines the numbers and makes some sense of them, especially between the two mega events of the summer.
pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/08/05/dc-month-to-month-sales-june-2008/

Next, I think that it's not just a matter of sales, it's also reader overload. six months ago our time, Hulk absolutely ravaged the MU and before that Civil War absolutely ravaged the MU, and before that House of M totally warped the MU. In Marvel time that all happens in about a few weeks.
For both me as a reader and for the MU to really recover so that these have some relevance and these things to have some impact they should be better paced.
Right now, the MU New York can't possibly be rebuilt and the city should be a crater at this point.
Just too much in every aspect.
Believe me am not loving Final Crisis either, I read this storyline in Morrison's Justice League about ten years ago and it was only mildly good then.

[woodside]

Quality of the actual event is rather pointless to debate, if you ask me, because I predict that all but a few of us will automatically dislike it.

However, in terms of crossing over into other titles, it depends on the event. Let's take last year's World War Hulk as an example.

Obviously, Hulk's title is a logical tie-in. So are X-Men, Avengers: The Intiative, Frontline, and Iron Man are logical choices because they deal with certain elements that arise from the events of the crossover. Professor X's involvement with the Illuminati, Iron Man's absence from SHIELD during WWH, the Intiative's response, and the down-to-earth human element.

Now, we've got other tie-ins. Ant-Man, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Heroes for Hire . . . what do these have to do with Hulk attacking New York? Not much.


However, in terms of "Civil War," it's the complete opposite. This was a major event that changed the very way super-heroes lived on a day-by-day basis. There needed to be vast impact and we needed to see how all these different characters reacted to the changes set forth during "Civil War." And it worked. Each and every character had a motivation for doing what they were doing. We had insight to their goals and their opinions and their choosing of sides.

"Secret Invasion" is somewhere in between "Civil War" and "World War Hulk" in terms of impact. Again, some titles are logical. Some deal with the main assualt, while others give the story a more wide-spread feel by dealing with the Skrulls in different parts of the world. However, we again have fairly useless tie-ins like Deadpool and Punisher War Journal.

[woodside]

Aug 16, 2008 23:24:19 GMT -5 steed said:

1. I'm tired of feeling that I missed something or that I'm reading something I read before. In the good old days they used to footnote where events referenced in a story happened. Stan and Roy Thomas were the kings of the footnote. Why did both Marvel and DC stop? If I missed something and they told me where it was I would go buy that book. Lets face it, Secret Invasion needs a ton of footnotes.

I miss Footnotes, too, actually. I wish Marvel would at least have a reference page, like in "Avengers Forever."

In the meantime . . . comicnewsi.com/article.php?catid=99&itemid=11973

[freedomfighter]

Aug 19, 2008 10:35:54 GMT -5 woodside said:

Quality of the actual event is rather pointless to debate, if you ask me, because I predict that all but a few of us will automatically dislike it.

However, in terms of crossing over into other titles, it depends on the event. Let's take last year's World War Hulk as an example.

Obviously, Hulk's title is a logical tie-in. So are X-Men, Avengers: The Intiative, Frontline, and Iron Man are logical choices because they deal with certain elements that arise from the events of the crossover. Professor X's involvement with the Illuminati, Iron Man's absence from SHIELD during WWH, the Intiative's response, and the down-to-earth human element.

Now, we've got other tie-ins. Ant-Man, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Heroes for Hire . . . what do these have to do with Hulk attacking New York? Not much.


However, in terms of "Civil War," it's the complete opposite. This was a major event that changed the very way super-heroes lived on a day-by-day basis. There needed to be vast impact and we needed to see how all these different characters reacted to the changes set forth during "Civil War." And it worked. Each and every character had a motivation for doing what they were doing. We had insight to their goals and their opinions and their choosing of sides.

"Secret Invasion" is somewhere in between "Civil War" and "World War Hulk" in terms of impact. Again, some titles are logical. Some deal with the main assualt, while others give the story a more wide-spread feel by dealing with the Skrulls in different parts of the world. However, we again have fairly useless tie-ins like Deadpool and Punisher War Journal.

I have no problem NOT debating the quality of said events. The sales figures were interjected by another poster and the impression seemed to be that because sales were good, that the event was good. I presented an opposing viewpoint.
That's all.
And I don't have a problem with the scope of said events. A well written Punisher Skrull story would be fine.
I am more concerned with both the Marvel Universe and the reader.
As silly as it was when it would happen, the endings like that of the Infinity Gauntlet when everything was restored back to normal, were a necessary evil. Otherwise you're blowing up the biggest cities in the Marvel Universe every other week. And the impact of that is just as big as any villain invasion, in fact bigger. People need places to live and jobs to go to. You couldn't work a regular job in the current Marvel Universe. Cities would go bankrupt.
The events also need to be more spaced out so they hit me a reader with more punch again.
I now know every six months, Joe Q is going authorize a couple of high profile kills, some major upheaval and a big bang.

[Nutcase65]

There is no way I can remember where I ranted on this before (somewhere right after CW ended showing a lead-in to initiative) But I am glad to see more fans are coming to be tired of the 'one-right-after-the other' routine.

I wonder if Marvel is just afraid to try to write stand alone stories anymore. Maybe they just don't feel like they have the talent?

[Doctor Doom]

Aug 26, 2008 13:11:44 GMT -5 Nutcase65 said:

T
I wonder if Marvel is just afraid to try to write stand alone stories anymore. Maybe they just don't feel like they have the talent?

I doubt it's that so much as that every time they slap an event logo on something, sales explode. People continue to claim "Event fatigue", but it CERTAINLY hasn't translated int the sales- at least, not at Marvel. At DC, Final Crisis has been crushingly disapponting.

[spiderwasp]

Aug 26, 2008 13:11:44 GMT -5 Nutcase65 said:

I wonder if Marvel is just afraid to try to write stand alone stories anymore. Maybe they just don't feel like they have the talent?

I love stand alone stories, however, unfortunately, I think they do reduce sales in this day and age. I was talking to someone recently who said "I don't buy any regular comics because they are too expensive. I wait for them to be collected in a trade because it's a better deal."
Stand alones are difficult to gather into a trade.
Of course one solution could be lower prices. I remember the glorious days when advertising within comics helped pay the printing costs, thereby logically reducing what the company had to charge. It's similar to what high school yearbooks do by selling ads to help pay for the books or t.v. stations do through commercials. The books today are just as full of ad pages but they are almost all intercompany ads. I'm tired of paying $3.00 for 6-10 full page ads for other books. Especially when I get those ads in several different books. These pages cost just as much to run as the actual text of the book but they can't possibly offset the cost for us since they are being sponsored by the company itself.

[freedomfighter]

Aug 26, 2008 16:23:25 GMT -5 Doctor Doom said:

Aug 26, 2008 13:11:44 GMT -5 Nutcase65 said:

T
I wonder if Marvel is just afraid to try to write stand alone stories anymore. Maybe they just don't feel like they have the talent?

I doubt it's that so much as that every time they slap an event logo on something, sales explode. People continue to claim "Event fatigue", but it CERTAINLY hasn't translated int the sales- at least, not at Marvel. At DC, Final Crisis has been crushingly disapponting.

I really wish you'd provide some facts to back this sort of statement up.
For example in one of the links I provide they sales chart shows that Final Crisis isn't selling near Secret Invasion, but its dropoff is also far less dramatic.
pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2008/08/05/dc-month-to-month-sales-june-2008/
So it didn't start off well, but seems to be holding its core, whereas Secret Invasion dropped nearly 70,000 readers from one issue to the next.
So who knows how the final numbers will all play out when everything is said and done?
I don't mind if we bring up sales as a factor, they just need to quantified and examined if you're going to bring it up, right? Otherwise it's just an empty talking point with no reference. Agree disagree, folks?

[Doctor Doom]

Aug 26, 2008 17:02:19 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

I really wish you'd provide some facts to back this sort of statement up.

How about these?

1- In 2005, "Infinite Crisis #1" sold 250,000, #1 for the month
2- DC have been promoting "Final Crisis" since May 2007
3- Not only was "Final Crisis #1" second in the month, it wasn't even CLOSE to #1
4- DC put one of the biggest teams in comicdom on it and managed to sell only 160,000. Between "Infinite" and "Final", 90,000 sales were lost- between "Civil War" and "Secret Invasion", 10,000 sales were lost. And it started higher.
5- "World War Hulk", promoted as a minor event with little to no effect on continuity and just a "light smash-fest", with a high profile artist and a not high profile writer, managed to outsell FC 1 with it's first issue.
6- "Ultimate Origins", set as a prequel story in the lower selling Ultimate universe, managed to outsell DC's super-mega-giant-event in June, which is particularly embarassing.

It's difficult to see any way on which DC can regard this as a good thing, especially with such a huge team. They're basically selling in increments a monthly title could beat. Now, I LOVE Final Crisis- I find it better than Secret Invasion. But the sales cannot be close to what DC hoped.

For example in one of the links I provide they sales chart shows that Final Crisis isn't selling near Secret Invasion, but its dropoff is also far less dramatic.

Well, that's natural for any title- bigger numbers always means bigger drop-offs. But it looks like at best, DC just grabbed their hardcore and nothing more- particularly since critical response to FC #1 wasn't fantastic. (It deserved better, IMO)

So who knows how the final numbers will all play out when everything is said and done?

Well, given SI's drop has completely levelled off as of June and DC are having woes with artists and delays.... I think we have an idea.

[freedomfighter]

Aug 26, 2008 17:54:12 GMT -5 Doctor Doom said:

Aug 26, 2008 17:02:19 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

I really wish you'd provide some facts to back this sort of statement up.

How about these?

1- In 2005, "Infinite Crisis #1" sold 250,000, #1 for the month
2- DC have been promoting "Final Crisis" since May 2007
3- Not only was "Final Crisis #1" second in the month, it wasn't even CLOSE to #1
4- DC put one of the biggest teams in comicdom on it and managed to sell only 160,000. Between "Infinite" and "Final", 90,000 sales were lost- between "Civil War" and "Secret Invasion", 10,000 sales were lost. And it started higher.
5- "World War Hulk", promoted as a minor event with little to no effect on continuity and just a "light smash-fest", with a high profile artist and a not high profile writer, managed to outsell FC 1 with it's first issue.
6- "Ultimate Origins", set as a prequel story in the lower selling Ultimate universe, managed to outsell DC's super-mega-giant-event in June, which is particularly embarassing.

It's difficult to see any way on which DC can regard this as a good thing, especially with such a huge team. They're basically selling in increments a monthly title could beat. Now, I LOVE Final Crisis- I find it better than Secret Invasion. But the sales cannot be close to what DC hoped.



Well, that's natural for any title- bigger numbers always means bigger drop-offs. But it looks like at best, DC just grabbed their hardcore and nothing more- particularly since critical response to FC #1 wasn't fantastic. (It deserved better, IMO)

So who knows how the final numbers will all play out when everything is said and done?

Well, given SI's drop has completely levelled off as of June and DC are having woes with artists and delays.... I think we have an idea.

Well there's a bunch of points to argue (i.e. how can you say SI's drop has leveled off when it isn't finished yet- it could both rise or fall dramatically before its completion obviously, the Ultimate Universe being the lower selling universe, which seems to be contrary to Marvel's editorial decision to bring so many elements of the Ultimate universe to the 616 titles, and I would personally question World War Hulk being a minor event- I think I counted about 36 titles in this checklist, which costs about a hundred bucks plus to buy)
forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=170565
but at least there are some numbers to go off of. I'm going to check on some of these myself and see if there are any other issues that help or hinder these numbers.
but I am glad there's some quantification to the discussion.
One thing is for certain, Marvel tends to create much more "need to buy" with their crossovers. I've been reading several books and the impact of Final Crisis is barely felt. whereas you can't read a Marvel book without needing to buy ten others right now. It's much more canny in terms of marketing.
And I think Final Crisis is actually somewhat repetitive, very reminiscent of Grant Morrison's JLA Rock of Ages storyline in a lot of places.

[Doctor Doom]

Aug 26, 2008 20:08:57 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

[
Well there's a bunch of points to argue (i.e. how can you say SI's drop has leveled off when it isn't finished yet- it could both rise or fall dramatically before its completion obviously,

Before the end, yes, but in July it's numbers stabilised considerably and it's unlikely to see huge drops based on past patterns.

the Ultimate Universe being the lower selling universe, which seems to be contrary to Marvel's editorial decision to bring so many elements of the Ultimate universe to the 616 titles,

Decisions made years ago, but that it is the lower selling universe is irrefutable fact. Let us take June this year as our example (As no titles were in event mode)- and do some comparisons

Ultimates- 95,000
New Avengers- 108,000

Uncanny X-Men- 81,000
Ultimate X-Men- 48,000

Fantastic Four- 61,000
Ultimate Fantastic Four- 35,000

Amazing Spider-Man- 72,000/70,000/70,000
Ultimate Spider-Man- 57,0000

Okay, first the obvious, in every case, the 616 title is crushing the Ultimate one. More importantly, for Spidey, said title is coming out three times a month and still maintains a larger audience. New Avengers is in event mode, yes, but even pre event mode it was selling around the Ultimates, which has ALWAYS been the number one Ultimate title, and an excellent seller in its own right. Now consider that there are only four Ultimate books anyway and three of them are in large declines, I don't see how you can really argue that the Ultimate line is a lower seller.

and I would personally question World War Hulk being a minor event- I think I counted about 36 titles in this checklist, which costs about a hundred bucks plus to buy)

It's difficult to argue it's anything close to the scale of what the Crises or Civil War and Secret Invasion were supposed to be- the tie-ins are almost unanimously seperate miniseries or low-selling titles trying to get a boost in sales, and it had absolutely no lasting effects on any title that wasn't Hulk, not to mention its far lower level of promotion and the fact that major Marvel characters, such as the Avengers who have headlined the last few events, were barely ever touted in it- plus, as previously mentioned, out of every crossover since 2005, it's the only one not to have an A-list writer.


forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=170565
but at least there are some numbers to go off of. I'm going to check on some of these myself and see if there are any other issues that help or hinder these numbers.
but I am glad there's some quantification to the discussion.
One thing is for certain, Marvel tends to create much more "need to buy" with their crossovers. I've been reading several books and the impact of Final Crisis is barely felt. whereas you can't read a Marvel book without needing to buy ten others right now. It's much more canny in terms of marketing.
And I think Final Crisis is actually somewhat repetitive, very reminiscent of Grant Morrison's JLA Rock of Ages storyline in a lot of places.[/quote]

[dlw66]

Aug 26, 2008 16:31:19 GMT -5 spiderwasp said:

Of course one solution could be lower prices. I remember the glorious days when advertising within comics helped pay the printing costs, thereby logically reducing what the company had to charge. It's similar to what high school yearbooks do by selling ads to help pay for the books or t.v. stations do through commercials. The books today are just as full of ad pages but they are almost all intercompany ads. I'm tired of paying $3.00 for 6-10 full page ads for other books. Especially when I get those ads in several different books. These pages cost just as much to run as the actual text of the book but they can't possibly offset the cost for us since they are being sponsored by the company itself.

I love the DVD-ROMs for Marvel's books as compared to the Essentials or Masterworks because of the completeness of the books -- all ads, letters pages, etc. Those of you old enough, like me, probably miss Robert Bell, Sea Monkeys, and Charles Atlas!!! What a great way to pay the bills, as opposed to house ad after house ad that does nothing but pass on cost to the consumer.

[Shiryu]

Am I the only one who, up until 5 minutes ago, didn't know that Final Crisis had actually started?

To answer the original question, yes they probably are overlapping too much. However I think the problem is not the event itself, but months of books leading to it.
For example, for months New Avengers has mostly been about the upcoming S.I., which meant that little happened in that book concerning the Avengers themselves, other then the Hood arc and a couple of fights with the MA. Now we have SI until the end of the year, and every issue is SI related, then we'll probably have 2 or 3 months break followed by the build up for the next event.

These build ups mean that the event essentially lasts for over a year in some books, and that's where the overlapping becomes excessive. I wouldn't mind a series of consecutive events as long as they were mostly taking place in their own books with just occasional references and tie-ins, but the way things are it looks like Civil War, WWH and SI are the one and only thing happening in the books of te MU that I follow.

[Doctor Doom]

Aug 27, 2008 15:01:12 GMT -5 dlw66 said:

I love the DVD-ROMs for Marvel's books as compared to the Essentials or Masterworks because of the completeness of the books -- all ads, letters pages, etc. Those of you old enough, like me, probably miss Robert Bell, Sea Monkeys, and Charles Atlas!!! What a great way to pay the bills, as opposed to house ad after house ad that does nothing but pass on cost to the consumer.

I want to note two things here-

First, as I've noted before, I got the FF DVD. But this has not preventeed me from buying FF comic books, trying to complete my Byrne collection. Why? Because there's something far more concrete, something far BETTER, about having a comic book physically in your hands, than can ever be passed on by reading it on a screen- IMO of course.

Secondly, though they don't have the ads, the Marvel "Omnibuses" collect all the letter pages as well, and are PHENOMENAL value for money- you can get 2/3 of the Lee/Kirby FF run (Some of the best comics ever written, obviously) in just two of them, even though they're pretty d**n dear. Unforgivably though, there have been NO Avengers ones thus far- but three X-Men, including Lee/Kirby X-Men which, let's face it, wasn't exactly the best work they did! Still, there was the Iron Man one released to coincide with the film...

[freedomfighter]

Aug 27, 2008 5:55:08 GMT -5 Doctor Doom said:

Aug 26, 2008 20:08:57 GMT -5 freedomfighter said:

[
Well there's a bunch of points to argue (i.e. how can you say SI's drop has leveled off when it isn't finished yet- it could both rise or fall dramatically before its completion obviously,

Before the end, yes, but in July it's numbers stabilised considerably and it's unlikely to see huge drops based on past patterns.



Decisions made years ago, but that it is the lower selling universe is irrefutable fact. Let us take June this year as our example (As no titles were in event mode)- and do some comparisons

Ultimates- 95,000
New Avengers- 108,000

Uncanny X-Men- 81,000
Ultimate X-Men- 48,000

Fantastic Four- 61,000
Ultimate Fantastic Four- 35,000

Amazing Spider-Man- 72,000/70,000/70,000
Ultimate Spider-Man- 57,0000

Okay, first the obvious, in every case, the 616 title is crushing the Ultimate one. More importantly, for Spidey, said title is coming out three times a month and still maintains a larger audience. New Avengers is in event mode, yes, but even pre event mode it was selling around the Ultimates, which has ALWAYS been the number one Ultimate title, and an excellent seller in its own right. Now consider that there are only four Ultimate books anyway and three of them are in large declines, I don't see how you can really argue that the Ultimate line is a lower seller.



It's difficult to argue it's anything close to the scale of what the Crises or Civil War and Secret Invasion were supposed to be- the tie-ins are almost unanimously seperate miniseries or low-selling titles trying to get a boost in sales, and it had absolutely no lasting effects on any title that wasn't Hulk, not to mention its far lower level of promotion and the fact that major Marvel characters, such as the Avengers who have headlined the last few events, were barely ever touted in it- plus, as previously mentioned, out of every crossover since 2005, it's the only one not to have an A-list writer.


forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=170565
but at least there are some numbers to go off of. I'm going to check on some of these myself and see if there are any other issues that help or hinder these numbers.
but I am glad there's some quantification to the discussion.
One thing is for certain, Marvel tends to create much more "need to buy" with their crossovers. I've been reading several books and the impact of Final Crisis is barely felt. whereas you can't read a Marvel book without needing to buy ten others right now. It's much more canny in terms of marketing.
And I think Final Crisis is actually somewhat repetitive, very reminiscent of Grant Morrison's JLA Rock of Ages storyline in a lot of places.

[/quote]

Well keep in mind when many of these editorial decisions were made the Ultimate line was selling far better. For example, the first issue of new Avengers is laying the groundwork for Secret Invasion isnt it? So the influence of The Ultimates back then sales wise is what matters, and not today, when the book has a far less popular creative team.
And when the Ultimates started these are the numbers I found
The first volume of Ultimates #1 ranked fourth among the top 300 comics sold for February 2002, based on Diamond Publisher's indexes,[3] with the next three issues ranked second,[4] second,[5] and third,[6] respectively.

Popmatters.com praised Mark Millar's writing in the opening eight issues, stating the writer "is able to walk a very fine line of keeping the story measured yet entertaining".[7] Comics Bulletin, in a review of the "Homeland Security" story arc, states the artwork is "visual magnificence" yet is concerned about the dark writing of the characters stripped of their "super-heroic nobility" and was "disheartened by the book’s tone and cynicism".[8] Shakingthrough.net gave "Homeland Security" a 4.2 out of 5.0 stating it is an "engaging read, filled with intriguing and amusing modern takes on classic Marvel characters" whilst praising Bryan Hitch's artwork by saying it is "amazing, gorgeous artwork, which continues to set the standard for cinematic photo-realism."[9]

Ultimates 2 #1 ranked second among the top 300 comics sold for December 2004,[10] with the next three issues ranked second,[11] fourth[12] and sixth,[13] respectively.

Reviewing Ultimates 2, Curledup.com praised Millar's writing of the classic heroes and the "inclusion of current-day politics" improves the storyline.[14] Comics Bulletin reviewed the final issue #13 but found it anti-climatic with the issue degenerating to a "slug fest". The artwork was praised with the reviewer stating that Bryan Hitch's "artwork has definitely been one of the main elements that will make this series memorable."[15] Denofgeek.com praised the artwork, with "Bryan Hitch doing some of the best work of his career", but was critical of the Millar's writing stating it had "no substance".[16]

Ultimates 3 #1 ranked first in December 2007's Top 300 comics with preorder sales of 131,401,[17] Issue #2 ranked number seven with 105,070 preorders.[18] Issue three ranked better than its predecessor, falling at number five, but had a smaller number of preorders, totaling at 97,210.[19]

Reviewing Ultimates 3, IGN called the book a "reasonably decent experience" although the issue "falters on its own merits",[20] only to later state while reviewing the third issue that "Behind the theatrics and swagger, there's just nothing there to draw me in. These are the characters that I used to enjoy in name only, hollow shells of what they used to be."[21]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimates#cite_note-2

So the numbers for the Ultimates in its early inception would've had a far greater impact on current Marvel and those numbers were quite robust. I believe Ultimate Spider Man was like this as well and Joe Q has made it no secret he enjoyed seeing the Ultimate Spider Man who wasn't married and could still date and have that particular brand of emotional angst that the character was lacking these days.

Of course, it's quite interesting to see that The Ultimate Universe is in steep decline now. I believe I read in an interview that Kurt Busiek left the Avengers in part due to feeling he would have to compete with these new version of the Avengers and felt it was a lose-lose situation. One, it would dilute the uniqueness of the current characters, and two if it sold better, it would put him in an unfortunate spot whereas if it sold worse it wouldn't matter because it was an experiment.

I also recall reading that many of DCs events do better in trade paperback form than is expected which may help overall sales in the long run. That's something I'll have to verify though.

And I would still disagree about World War Hulk. First just because Greg Pak wasn't a superstar writer isn't an issue. After all, Grant Morrison and Mark Millar weren't always superstar writers. The audience had to see a project that wowed them and the sales increased because of that notice. That's much more a current mentality where only superstar writers and pencilers are put on big events. It's a silly "rockstar" sort of thing that I wish would pass so that we don't get the same sort of projects all the time.
Also many collectors I know are completists, it's part of the mentality. If you put out a checklist with forty books even if they only crossover tangentially, some collectors will pick them up. Their own fault? Agreed, but it is a tactic and its being utilized and it will effect 10% or 15% or more of the people buying the crossover...

[starfoxxx]

Who cares about sales?

I bet the new NEW Kids on the Block CD will sell more copies/make more money than your favorite musician/band. Does that mean they're better???

Hey everyone has different taste, that's great, but Avengers fans deserve more than what we
have been offered recently. I admit, I'm still buying New Av, Mighty Av, and Secret Invasion, and other "big event" comics (I couldn't pass up Perez drawing the Legion, for example) but I still appreciate a forum where I can complain if I believe I just threw away $3-4 bucks. I also like to complain about creators/editors who seem out of touch with what made comics special in the first place (I'm talking to Joe Quesada here). My local comic shop owner cares about sales, I don't.

[Dr. Hank Pym]

Sept 3, 2008 15:06:15 GMT -5 starfoxxx said:

Who cares about sales?

Marvel certainly does -- No sales = no comics!