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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 20, 2007 19:04:39 GMT -5
I have not read anything that suggests Tony shares Gyrich's agenda, or is even aware of it, but I have not read anything that suggests he's not, either. That's a story yet to be told. Certainly from what Tony said during Civil War one might conclude that his chief goal is to prevent Stamford type incidents, which suggests his focus is on the training, and not on building an army. It's possible they're setting the stage for conflict between Stark and Gyrich at some future point. At the risk of expressing a wildly exaggerated opinion, I'd be real curious to see how anyone could defend the events shown in the preview as consistent with sound strategy, sound tactics, or good training doctrine. Sounds more like bravado & empty boasts to me...
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 20, 2007 19:09:42 GMT -5
Excellent ideas in this preview: Sending barely trained cadets out to fight hardened criminals. Sending people out on equipment they're not qualified to operate (jet packs). Building jump gates that weaken the interface between the Negative Zone and "reality." Building enough such gates that when villains break out of 42, they'll have dozens of options. George W. Bush staying at his ranch in this situation, when the first thing the Secret Service does is rush him to safety. Heck, Dick Cheney only comes out of his post 9/11 spider hole for photo ops and the occasional bill signing! Injecting a strong neo-conservative viewpoint into this book at a time when neo-conservative policies are widely regarded as failures. What's Slott trying to do, prop up Mr. Bush's dismal numbers? Perhaps Slott wants to further add to the "realism" by paralleling the US's current quagmire in Irak: poor planning, inadequate equipment, overconfidence & considering your own forces basically as cannon fodder...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 20, 2007 20:37:29 GMT -5
now the cannon fodder thing is in keeping with Gyrich's character. He has always seen the Super-hero population as weapons only. To be used and disposed of at the Nations wishes, and ultimately at his own personal discretion.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 21, 2007 0:02:50 GMT -5
Slott, I have learned, is a writer with long-range agendas and a knack for writing situations that are not as they seem. With that in mind, I’m willing to see how the situations previewed in #2 pan out (e.g., simulations?), and the same goes for the agendas of Gyrich et al. (e.g., building Gyrich up as a foe?).
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 21, 2007 6:49:26 GMT -5
again though, Gyrich is one of the better one-dimensional charaters, in that you can always be sure that no matter what his plans are it'll eventually turn out badly for any heroes involved.
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 21, 2007 12:15:18 GMT -5
Slott, I have learned, is a writer with long-range agendas and a knack for writing situations that are not as they seem. With that in mind, I’m willing to see how the situations previewed in #2 pan out (e.g., simulations?), and the same goes for the agendas of Gyrich et al. (e.g., building Gyrich up as a foe?). You know Phantom, because there are so many egregious elements in this storyline, and because I have enjoyed Slott's work before, I have been wondering if he isn't setting us all up. Perhaps his whole point will be that this is the wrong way to do things, and we'll eventually see a 180 turn in how the Initiative is handled. Still, even if that is his plan, it reflects poorly on the heroes involved.
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Post by balok on Apr 21, 2007 17:06:42 GMT -5
I wonder, too, how long it will be until Blastaar or Annihilus or one of the other unpleasant denizens of the 'zone discovers all these gates and camps out like a noob hunter in Warcraft to slaughter some of the Initiative recruits...
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 21, 2007 18:16:14 GMT -5
if you're following Black Panther at all you know that has already happened. Noit only found the gate but have passed into our universe.
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Post by Van Plexico on Apr 22, 2007 19:38:46 GMT -5
Finally worked my way down through the stack to INITIATIVE #1 today.
Dan Slott amazes me. He is a very skilled, very talented writer.
Under other circumstances, I would not have been terribly excited about this issue. But in his hands, with the extraordinary skill he displays in laying the story out... Wow! I was very impressed.
He's so good he makes it look like he did less than he actually did. Go back and read that comic again, if you doubt me. He sets everything up so well, with very economical use of scenes and character "bits" to lead to emotional payoffs very quickly.
I am impressed.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 22, 2007 23:29:29 GMT -5
Slott, I have learned, is a writer with long-range agendas and a knack for writing situations that are not as they seem. With that in mind, I’m willing to see how the situations previewed in #2 pan out (e.g., simulations?), and the same goes for the agendas of Gyrich et al. (e.g., building Gyrich up as a foe?). again though, Gyrich is one of the better one-dimensional charaters, in that you can always be sure that no matter what his plans are it'll eventually turn out badly for any heroes involved. You know Phantom, because there are so many egregious elements in this storyline, and because I have enjoyed Slott's work before, I have been wondering if he isn't setting us all up. Perhaps his whole point will be that this is the wrong way to do things, and we'll eventually see a 180 turn in how the Initiative is handled. Tana actually articulated something I was thinking. Nutcase, I didn’t mean to imply that Gyrich is something other than he appears to be, but I did mean to question the apparently common assumption that A) Gyrich’s methods and goals are being endorsed by the comic and its writer and B) said methods and goals will continue unchecked indefinitely.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 23, 2007 0:07:14 GMT -5
I can see what you are saying Phantom. But let me share my view on Gyrich. He is the ultimate beauracrat. He doesn't care about reasons or circumstances. He's drunk on the rulebook and elated with the power that gives him over others.
Put it this way,.. he'd be great in the DMV
thats my take on it.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 23, 2007 18:06:16 GMT -5
But let me share my view on Gyrich. He is the ultimate beauracrat. He doesn't care about reasons or circumstances. He's drunk on the rulebook and elated with the power that gives him over others. In my opinion, Gyrich isn’t interested in power except as a means to his true goal: serving the interests of the American public…as he sees them. Of course, that makes him no less dangerous.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 23, 2007 19:37:44 GMT -5
Yeah but think about this. He never has liked supers. I believe he's made that clear enough on multiple occasions. I think he was originally created to show how some people react when they feel inadequate. I think he has always felt that way next to them. and any time his job allowed him to wavr that responsibility/power over their heads, I think he gets a thrill out of it.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 29, 2007 14:37:37 GMT -5
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 29, 2007 15:34:18 GMT -5
Y'know, I've spent so much time criticizing the boot camp aspect not being very tru to form, I never got around to saying, I'm sort of enjoying this. I am looking forward to the character development.
I also agree with Vance. That 'New Warrior 'crap is wrong. I liked the warriors.
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Post by balok on Apr 29, 2007 21:35:24 GMT -5
Oh, what Doctor Doom or the Mad Thinker could do with Trauma and a telepathic amplifier. The possibilities boggle the mind!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 30, 2007 13:15:21 GMT -5
Why Doom would need such rubbish as that boggles a mind. He made a time machine 13 years ago, I'm sure he could make a device to cause everyone see their worst nightmare in his SLEEP
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 1, 2007 13:04:42 GMT -5
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Post by balok on May 1, 2007 19:27:51 GMT -5
That "even accounting for the previous 25 issues of New" makes me leery of this guy, though. I found all but the first half-dozen or so issues of New wretched beyond the telling of it, and this guy seems to imply that he liked some or all of them. Which would suggest that, for my purposes, a good review from him is valueless.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 2, 2007 10:27:36 GMT -5
Actually, personally I interpreted it as saying that this was better than New or Mighty, even if you counted the past issues of New, IE: This was better than all of New, which doesn't imply a positive or negative. But certainly it's very possible to interpret it the way you did.
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Post by Alchemist-X on May 2, 2007 18:09:07 GMT -5
Issue 2 is definately better than the first. It seems to deal with the unethical/immoral people in the book and how they are starting to but heads with our heroes who don't want to continuously compromise their morals. (Justice and Pym specifically)
Other than Justice and Pym however the cast seems to have gotten even more lackluster than before with the exception of Trauma who gets to stay on the team despite multiple screwups because apparently he's got some holy grail of power sets.
Overall teh best part of the book was when the President was thanking Yellowjacket and called him Pymmy I couldn't help but imagine it in a GW immitation voice like they do on Robot Chicken and I had to laugh out loud.
The cliffhanger nature of the ending makes me think i'll at least consider getting the 3rd, but It'll need more than finding out Traumas new tutor to keep me on this title.
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Post by iastagehand on May 3, 2007 19:29:58 GMT -5
I'm in for at least 6 issues. i like Dan but he's no Bendis. okay let the smiting begin! (kidding) (and kidding about the Bendis part! i like my karma where it is!)
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Post by balok on May 4, 2007 13:49:24 GMT -5
I read the book. Possible spoilers... It was... okay. Not significantly better or worse than the first issue. Whether Slott is making fun of the Initiative (subtly) is hard to say, but he's certainly making fun of George W. Bush by putting the "Heckuva job, Pymmy" comment in his mouth. (For those that don't know or remember, George W. Bush told FEMA chief Michael D. Brown, "You're doing a heckuva job, Brownie" mere days before Brown, considered by most a career bungler, quit the agency following the government's response to Hurricane Katrina, judged by many to have made a bad situation worse.) Some of what the Initiative is doing is outright dangerous, and they know it, which is perplexing - it's more dangerous to establish the jumpgates, with their potential to degrade the interface between the negative zone and 616. In addition, they're throwing children into battle situations inadequately trained - exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to do. Hank Pym rode the Hydra helicarrier to the ground. Presumably everyone aboard died when it exploded. I guess that's okay 'cause they were evil. I wonder what happened to the people who lived where they landed? That was a darn big explosion. I guess those people all survived because the writers didn't want to suggest the Initiative might make a mistake. Why are the people of Stamford okay with having a training camp for rookie heroes in their town? Seems to me that'd open all kinds of wounds... Gauntlet's crack about the New Warriors moved him from the merely annoying to the downright unlikeable. It's like the man has no understanding of what really happened, and no sense of decency or compassion. Boy, it's special when a longtime Marvel hero gets a morality lesson from a Nazi. That's one of the things that suggested that Slott is, at least on some level, mocking the Initiative. Good thing Hank's got plenty of anti-anxiety meds. I wonder if they'll make his conscience quit hectoring him? And just exactly what is it that that rat b*****d Gyrich wants to turn Trauma into? Actually, I think we all know. Some heroes.
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 4, 2007 15:47:00 GMT -5
Why are the people of Stamford okay with having a training camp for rookie heroes in their town? Seems to me that'd open all kinds of wounds... Gauntlet's crack about the New Warriors moved him from the merely annoying to the downright unlikeable. It's like the man has no understanding of what really happened, and no sense of decency or compassion. I think there is a scene in the first issue that shows protesting outside the gated isn' t there. As far as that New Warriors Schtick, I think Gauntlet and Vance might be headed for words about that.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 6, 2007 16:04:41 GMT -5
As far as that New Warriors Schtick, I think Gauntlet and Vance might be headed for words about that. “Gauntlet…I would have words with thee.”
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 6, 2007 16:29:46 GMT -5
As far as that New Warriors Schtick, I think Gauntlet and Vance might be headed for words about that. “Gauntlet…I would have words with thee.” That's just not as moving coming from Vance. ;D
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 6, 2007 16:59:44 GMT -5
It'll need more than finding out Traumas new tutor to keep me on this title. I suspect I can give you that answer anyway. My conclusion is that it’s Danielle Moonstar, formerly Psyche and Mirage of the New Mutants. She used to have similar powers until M-Day, she has a Xavier’s connection, she used to instruct superhumans (at Xavier’s), and look at that shadow complete with her characteristic braid!
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 24, 2007 15:25:04 GMT -5
I have to think you are right about moonstar NP. It looks like her shadow if she hasn't changed her hairstyle.
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Post by Doctor Doom on May 24, 2007 16:28:56 GMT -5
Moonstar is definitely the most likely one.
Personally, I just can't wait for 4...
World War Hulk... with a writer who hopefully WON'T just have Hulk own everyone... aah...
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