Initiative #2

[Nutcase65]

Now that we have had a chance to digest the first issue, how many of you will be continuing with issue #2?

I will

[Tone-Loc]

yup. Like Mighty, I said I would give this one 6 issues. I try to be fair.

Not a big fan of Gauntlet, of the old Avengers as drill sgt.'s... and being in bed with Gyrich makes my stomach turn... but, we'll see where it goes. I am looking for some conscience to be developed and fostered within the Reg forces, a la Ms. Marvel.

[The Night Phantom]

I voted yes. I had already placed this series on standing order at my friendly neighborhood comic shop—so, even if I had found #1 to be a complete stinkerama, I would be committed to further issues for the next couple of months or however long the pre-order lag extends. However, I anticipate sticking with the series for the first half-dozen issues at least.

[balok]

Issue #1 was so unappetizing it put me off a book I was going to read at least through issue #6. So, no.

[imperiusrex]

Not trying to be negative or mean, but here's my stance on Marvel (and DC for the matter).
A book has to "wow" me and it has to stay good. So I don't buy many books unless it's from a writer I really like and a concept I really dig. This just doesn't meet that criteria for me. Now it could get really good and when me over and I could decide to start picking it up, but I often just buy a TPB when that happens.
It's a given the first six issues will be collected before too long, so I'm not concerned.
But to answer the question for right now...no.

[Alchemist-X]

I really want to see where exactly things are going so I'll hang around for #2 at least

[Doctor Doom]

It's an excellent concept, really so good that any half competent writer could pull it off. Dan Slott is more than competent and while he didn't wow me, I know I'm guaranteed a firm, solid, consistently good read every month.

[Nutcase65]

This one looks like it has a lot more support, at least for now than Mighty does. Most people who are keeping tho' seem to be maintaining that 'wait and see' kind of attitude.

[Doctor Doom]

I'm in a "prise this title from my cold, dead hands" mode though until Daniel Way takes over!

[Doctor Bong]

nutcase65 said:

This one looks like it has a lot more support, at least for now than Mighty does. Most people who are keeping tho' seem to be maintaining that 'wait and see' kind of attitude.

With all those "this one" here & "this one" there you're starting to sound like your beloved Mantis, Nutcase...

[Nutcase65]

11th commandment:

Thou shalt not compare me to Mantis.

[Doctor Bong]

nutcase65 said:

11th commandment:

Thou shalt not compare me to Mantis.

The 12th: Thou shalt stone Bendis to death upon getting him within your eyesight... ;D (Just kidding...)

[thew40]

I wasn't a big fan of the first issue, but I'll stick around a little longer. I really hope it changes a bit and becomes more than just the "other" Young Avengers book. Maybe focusing on the Avengers a bit more and getting the younger characters involved with them.

~W~

[Doctor Doom]

I hope we see more of the Real Avengers that we don't see elsewhere- Hank is a good start, and I have a pet liking for Stingray myself...

[balok]

Stingray?!? Really??? That's one of those folks I always wondered how he ever got to be an Avenger.

Maybe if the new class of characters were somewhat interesting, or the people running it weren't basically villains, or they hadn't killed the character whom I liked the best. But as it is, it would be a toss up between reading this book, and having my arm torn off because the kids were yelling!

[Doctor Doom]

Difference of opinion again, I like the new class, particularly because of the realism of FINALLY having a super-girl who, as Cloud 9 says, did not just step off the cover of "Teen Vogue"

And obviously I don't view any of them as villains except Gyrich. And possibly Nazi guy, I don't really know yet

[Tana Nile]

docdoom said:

Difference of opinion again, I like the new class, particularly because of the realism of FINALLY having a super-girl who, as Cloud 9 says, did not just step off the cover of "Teen Vogue"

Terra from the Wolfman-Perez Teen Titans run was drawn quite realistically for a teenaged girl - and she even (unfortuntely) had buck teeth! That was what, 20 years ago?

[Nutcase65]

balok said:

Stingray?!? Really??? That's one of those folks I always wondered how he ever got to be an Avenger.

Maybe if the new class of characters were somewhat interesting, or the people running it weren't basically villains, or they hadn't killed the character whom I liked the best. But as it is, it would be a toss up between reading this book, and having my arm torn off because the kids were yelling!

I think he was like the kid in your neighborhood that was richer than everyone else. You let him play because he had the cool toys.
When the Avengers needed a place to launch Quinjets from due to FAA regulations, he had an island for them. (Hydrobase)

[balok]

Meh. Cloud 9 seems to have a fairly useless power. Sure, flight's cool, but it's not going to help fight a bad guy. MPH is dead, Armory is evicted and a murderer (one could argue she would not be had they actually done what they claim they're there to do, but that's another discussion), the fear guy might be able to hold his own, but not against anyone with experience dealing with their fears. Another one it's hard to imagine training to be very useful in a fight.

Gyrich was the villain I had in mind, of course, but since he runs things, and since other people are following his lead in a cover-up instead of airing the truth, they're all complicit in his villainy to some small degree. MPH's family, and America, deserve to understand that the Initiative is about, warts and all, so they can make properly informed decisions about whether to support it. Gyrich's orders are, in the sense that they preclude this kind of open discussion, deeply anti-American. And, of course, I'm not a fan of what they did to Armory at all, but most people don't seem to have a problem with it, so I'll have to be a lone voice of dissent. I don't know enough about the Nazi geneticist to know whether he's really a villain or not, but the fact that he was associated with that horrific regime and is now an employee of the Initiative says something unpleasant about the Initiative.

[Nutcase65]

The thing is Balok, there are plenty of people that have shown up that at first seemed to have useless powers. I am sure, that with the help of her training she will discover new depths and developments to her powers.

[balok]

nutcase65 said:

The thing is Balok, there are plenty of people that have shown up that at first seemed to have useless powers. I am sure, that with the help of her training she will discover new depths and developments to her powers.

You could be right, and it's certainly true that it would sort of defeat the point if the characters were fully developed right out of the gate.

But I don't like her name, either!

[Nutcase65]

yeah,.. cloud9 souds like the name you'd give to a super-stripper

[Tana Nile]

A five page preview is available at Newsarama:

forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=109641

This is all very confusing. Is the Initiative an agency set up to train superhumans to use their powers responsibly, to protect themselves and others, or is it just a way for the U.S. to build their own super-army? It really looks like the latter to me. We have the people in charge sending untrained kids out to fight Hydra? I thought they were trying to avoid another Stamford.

At this point it's hard to tell if this is purposeful or just bad writing.

And that "Avengers kick ass" line exemplifies all of what is wrong with the current direction.

And I hate NASCAR , MySpace, and American Idol too.

[Nutcase65]

Again, it just seems like the attempt to make a boot-camp comparison just doesn't even work.

If these are still new recruits, why are they already in full combat situations?

It is all a little too rushed. I still plan to get at least one more issue, but if I feel that way after reading #2 I'll probably save some money there as well.

[balok]

Excellent ideas in this preview:

Sending barely trained cadets out to fight hardened criminals.

Sending people out on equipment they're not qualified to operate (jet packs).

Building jump gates that weaken the interface between the Negative Zone and "reality."

Building enough such gates that when villains break out of 42, they'll have dozens of options.

George W. Bush staying at his ranch in this situation, when the first thing the Secret Service does is rush him to safety. Heck, Dick Cheney only comes out of his post 9/11 spider hole for photo ops and the occasional bill signing!

Injecting a strong neo-conservative viewpoint into this book at a time when neo-conservative policies are widely regarded as failures. What's Slott trying to do, prop up Mr. Bush's dismal numbers?

[balok]

tananile said:

Is the Initiative an agency set up to train superhumans to use their powers responsibly, to protect themselves and others, or is it just a way for the U.S. to build their own super-army? It really looks like the latter to me.

If you'll recall Gyrich's comments to Gauntlet, the Initiative is exactly the government's plan to build a superhuman army. Gyrich stated that the events of "House of M" depleted the number of mutants, leaving the available metahumans as mostly those who got their powers from "lab accidents and magic canes... the way God intended" (paraphrasing, but that's the sense of it). He goes on to state that House of M handed the United States a decisive victory in the superhuman arms race, because it leads the world in those sorts of weirdnesses.

[Tana Nile]

balok said:

tananile said:

Is the Initiative an agency set up to train superhumans to use their powers responsibly, to protect themselves and others, or is it just a way for the U.S. to build their own super-army? It really looks like the latter to me.

If you'll recall Gyrich's comments to Gauntlet, the Initiative is exactly the government's plan to build a superhuman army. Gyrich stated that the events of "House of M" depleted the number of mutants, leaving the available metahumans as mostly those who got their powers from "lab accidents and magic canes... the way God intended" (paraphrasing, but that's the sense of it). He goes on to state that House of M handed the United States a decisive victory in the superhuman arms race, because it leads the world in those sorts of weirdnesses.

It makes me wonder if Stark is aware of Gyrich's agenda. Despite Tony's recent behavior, I really did believe that he wanted to use the Initiative to train superhumans to be more responsible in using their powers. I thought the state teams were secondary to him, and certainly the safety of these "cadets" should be his foremost concern.

But even without Tony around, I'd expect experienced supers like Rhodey and Pym to have better judgment than to send unprepared kids out to fight Hydra. Just makes no sense to me.

[Doctor Doom]

Loving the preview, especially the use of the Negative Zone. I've already renounced any hope of anyone on this site using pure rational reason when it comes to the Initative, but I myself will wait until the issue before making comments. Can I fully defend what they're doing now? Sure. But when I read the issue, I suspect my task will be made ten times easier.

[balok]

I have not read anything that suggests Tony shares Gyrich's agenda, or is even aware of it, but I have not read anything that suggests he's not, either. That's a story yet to be told. Certainly from what Tony said during Civil War one might conclude that his chief goal is to prevent Stamford type incidents, which suggests his focus is on the training, and not on building an army. It's possible they're setting the stage for conflict between Stark and Gyrich at some future point.

At the risk of expressing a wildly exaggerated opinion, I'd be real curious to see how anyone could defend the events shown in the preview as consistent with sound strategy, sound tactics, or good training doctrine.

[Alchemist-X]

balok said:

I have not read anything that suggests Tony shares Gyrich's agenda, or is even aware of it, but I have not read anything that suggests he's not, either. That's a story yet to be told. Certainly from what Tony said during Civil War one might conclude that his chief goal is to prevent Stamford type incidents, which suggests his focus is on the training, and not on building an army. It's possible they're setting the stage for conflict between Stark and Gyrich at some future point.

At the risk of expressing a wildly exaggerated opinion, I'd be real curious to see how anyone could defend the events shown in the preview as consistent with sound strategy, sound tactics, or good training doctrine.

Well I think in the Ironman Civil War issues Tony talks about how he's doing this for the right reasons, but thousands of politicans are only using it as a part of their bigger agenda and he's constantly at odds with what they want and whats right or something.

As for the sound strategy of what they do in this innitiative issue I can only point out

1. We don't know how much time has elapsed since the last issue, after all Cloud 9 apparently has the highest scores on the firing range something that didn't happen last issue, how trained this kids are at this point is mostly unknown. Other than not knowing how to opperate jet packs that is.

2. The Rangers needed backup ASAP and Older Avenger members did head out with the new recruits so they didn't just cut these kids to the wolves.

I'll have to read the whole issue to figure it out, but based on that preview this series is getting put on the bubble, because like you are all pointing out, this has been so far, a lamer version of young avengers that seems to be inconsistent with so many ideas on the SHRA that have been outlined in the other books.