|
Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 3, 2007 16:49:42 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Apr 4, 2007 14:53:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 4, 2007 15:41:53 GMT -5
Er... not really. It's more this whole "Newsarama actually like the direction of Marvel today" thing than that they're always pleased.
As long as you NEVER, EVER, EVER go near the forums.
|
|
|
Post by Black Knight on Apr 4, 2007 15:50:15 GMT -5
I don't know, Newsarama just seems to be always pleases about everything, not just Marvel stuff. Smart business to not tick off the companies that can damage you.
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Apr 4, 2007 16:46:49 GMT -5
Er... not really. It's more this whole "Newsarama actually like the direction of Marvel today" thing than that they're always pleased. As long as you NEVER, EVER, EVER go near the forums. Er...my opinion. I'm entitled to it. Should you wish to create a chart showing their fair and balanced coverage and create statistical norms that can be double checked, then I'll defer. until then, I'll be happy to post my thoughts on their coverage. And Dittman isn't always pleased. he just tends to give glowingly good quotes for coverage. Can you say that conclusively say that newsarama doesn't do that?
|
|
|
Post by Tana Nile on Apr 4, 2007 19:44:59 GMT -5
I'd tend to agree that Newsarama is usually positive about both Marvel and DC projects. It can be hard to find truly objective reviews. I think the worst 'news outlet' is Wizard - if you followed them, you'd think every book is fantastic. I also don't like how they influence the back issue market. And the situation with Captain America 25 and their eBay sales was just plain unethical.
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 4, 2007 20:53:02 GMT -5
This interview does bring up one very important question. Which team will Bobby Knight be on? I think this could turn the tide against evil.
|
|
|
Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 4, 2007 21:02:21 GMT -5
Which team will Bobby Knight be on? Thunderbolts?
Apparently there was a shipping problem at my friendly neighborhood comics shop, and my copy of #1 will have to wait till next week!!
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Apr 4, 2007 22:10:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Tana Nile on Apr 4, 2007 23:21:18 GMT -5
I actually picked this book up today. I wanted to like it, I really did, but it left me with a bad taste in my mouth. There are some spoilers ahead, so read at your own peril.
First up, the new character, the Gauntlet. I'm sorry, but this guy just looks lame. He's got a mechanical arm the size of his whole body...I don't know if this is more anime influence or what, but to me, this just looks stupid.
We meet the Gauntlet in Iraq. That's right kids, we already have supers overseas. And apparently if Henry Gyrich gets his way, we'll have a lot more of them overseas.
I realize many people have no problem with this concept. For me though, it is just part of what I perceive as the downward spiral Marvel has put itself in by so closely mimicking real world politics.
We then move to the US. The Cloud 9 character is introduced. She's a cute kid but not especially interesting at this point. We then meet 2 more kids, MVP and Armory, who strangely enough is another person with a big gun/device on her arm... has she appeared before?
All the kids wind up on a bus headed to Camp Hammond, the Initiative training center. We then get a very dated drill sargeant routine from Gauntlet. Ya know, the only time this shtick worked was when I saw 'Full Metal Jacket' the first time. Anyway, moving on...
There's some discussion of the draftees by War Machine, Justice, and Yellowjacket. Then we get some teen angst stuff, with the young Cloud 9 feeling out of place with all these, uh, developed girls in the locker room. I actually liked her exchange with MVP, but there are a lot of books out there that can give me the awkward-young-hero-stuff, so this didn't really score that many points with me.
We move on to a danger room situation with Armory and another character named Trauma. Now we have this highly controlled environment, where the people in charge want to insure that all heroes are well-trained and that no innocent person is ever hurt by supers. They are apparently aware of Trauma's power. But they don't bother to tell Armory about it? No, they just throw them in a tense situation together and let it fly. His power scares the bejeezus out of Armory, which causes her to wildly fire off her gun, resulting in the death of MVP (in what I felt was an unnecessarily graphic way). Gyrich then tells the students "Nothing leaves this room. This did not happen."
They promptly remove Armory's weapon and wash her out of the program. End of issue 1.
If this is what Slott has in store for us, I'm really not interested. Yes, it's partly because it offends me politically, like much of the SHRA. But it's also because so much of it is unoriginal, nonsensical, and damned dark.
|
|
|
Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 5, 2007 1:45:17 GMT -5
I also picked this one up, and it was interesting. Spoilers ahead so ya know read at your own risk.
First up was Gauntlet, not surprising someone who doesn't appear to be a high caliber power is the army's pregnant dog. If I remember right there was a character in She-Hulk who had a gauntlet that let them create telekinetic hands, but that was a teenage girl. Either way I guess this guy's gonna be in the spotlight a while. I guess I'll see where that goes, but its not a bright spot.
THen we have Cloud 9, who seems pretty interesting. Definately not your average superhero personality, and no apparent omega level powers to supplement that, so not much of a threat. Not fiting the mold at all, I really wanna see what the 'system' is like for the akward supertype.
I like Justice and Warmachine in the support cast roles, it seems like they would make good teachers and mentors.
MVP was pretty cool, before he bit the dust.
As for Armory, Trauma and the incident, I think it was essential. It established just how dangerous training superhumans can be. Even to a greater extent than the xmen were because of the overall volume that the Innitiative has taken on from day one. Proffesor X started with 5 students and went from there. This is a bunch of military and Former Avengers trying to start up a Superhuman University, Its dangerous, and considering how lightly everyone had been taking things and just running things like a lazy bootcamp, with no specific attention to students. Well obviously something bad was going to happen. I hope this incident gets the higherups to focus on doing things right, and makeing sure they understand everone on the roster.
Its also interesting to see washing out obviously comes with the removal of your powers/weapons.
The team has potential, I'll see where this goes. Plus I've heard that the series will cover multiple teams as well all accross the innitiative right? Seeing the whole Innitiative at work would be interesting, to watch the variety and such.
I'll get the next one, if not to find out what was so interesting about MVPs autopsy.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 5, 2007 4:25:26 GMT -5
Hold up, RSC-
ALVAROS!?
NEGATIVE ABOUT A MAJOR MARVEL PRODUCT SPINNING OUT OF CIVIL WAR?
Say it ain't so!
What's next- Avengers Assemble dislikes something written by Bendis!??
Couldn't get this issue because my rubbish Local comic sdhop managed to forget to reserve it, Omega Flight AND Fallen Son. So I didn't get any.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 5, 2007 17:44:04 GMT -5
Spoilers... First up, the new character, the Gauntlet. I'm sorry, but this guy just looks lame. He's got a mechanical arm the size of his whole body...I don't know if this is more anime influence or what, but to me, this just looks stupid. Yes, indeed. Add to this the fact that he's a stereotypical drill sergeant, and it's hard to see what he brings to the party except the same drill sergeant riffs that, let's face it, Full Metal Jacket already did as well as they can ever be done. Especially lame was the bit of throwaway dialog suggesting that someone other than Iraqi insurgents was responsible for the truck bomb. We meet the Gauntlet in Iraq. That's right kids, we already have supers overseas. And apparently if Henry Gyrich gets his way, we'll have a lot more of them overseas. I raised exactly this point on another thread. The Initiative is going to begin a superheroic arms race. Gyrich is counting on the United States to come out ahead, but in that race one guy can tip the scales. I realize many people have no problem with this concept. For me though, it is just part of what I perceive as the downward spiral Marvel has put itself in by so closely mimicking real world politics. Agreed. Ya know, the only time this shtick worked was when I saw 'Full Metal Jacket' the first time. Anyway, moving on... I swear I wrote my comment above before I read this far! We move on to a danger room situation with Armory and another character named Trauma. Now we have this highly controlled environment, where the people in charge want to insure that all heroes are well-trained and that no innocent person is ever hurt by supers. They are apparently aware of Trauma's power. But they don't bother to tell Armory about it? No, they just throw them in a tense situation together and let it fly. His power scares the bejeezus out of Armory, which causes her to wildly fire off her gun, resulting in the death of MVP (in what I felt was an unnecessarily graphic way). Gyrich then tells the students "Nothing leaves this room. This did not happen." Where to begin? First off, how long does Gyrich think he can keep the rottenness secret. Sooner or later one of his trainees is going to grow a conscience, and if they're lucky, they'll pick a reporter other than Sally Floyd who will actually tell the story. Then people will start to dig, and the entire corrupt underpinning of it will come crashing down. If the capes think people don't trust them NOW, what will it be like when they're discovered to be a part of what seems to be developing into a cesspool of immorality. Second, what happened with Armory was as much the result of poor training as anything else. She should have been told what to expect. That she wasn't led directly to her reaction and therefore to MVP's death. A pity she didn't get Gyrich; that rat bastard has needed a dirt nap for a lot of years. Third, why does the Initiative get to steal from Armory when it washes her out (apparently also performing surgery on her against her will - or something). Simply because they want her tech? Unless they issued her that weapon they have no right to it. They can tell her that she's not a hero, and they can tell he she's not to use her powers under the totalitarian SHRA, but that should be the end of it, unless the law has facets that legalize this sort of theft. I'll reserve some judgment until/unless we learn where she got that device, but unless the Initiative gave it to her, it's wrong for them to take it, even if she washes out. Especially since she washed out because of poor training. And Yellowjacket was right there watching, so he's lost the hard won respect slowly regained after he lost it all for dotting Jan's eye years ago. Marvel under the SHRA is an unpleasant place. They're trying to turn 616 into the Ultimate universe in hopes of stimulating sales. I so hope it backfires on them, and in the way that sees Quesada booted out the door. I shall not return for issue #2. I see why Quesada is so happy with Slott over this book, though. Like Jenkins and Millar and Ellis, he has managed to craft a book the reading of which makes one feel as though bathing in a sewer.
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Apr 5, 2007 17:47:05 GMT -5
I was a little surprised by this. It came off to me as more of a "Generation X" to the "Avengers." Almost like a replacement for "Young Avengers" or something. I wasn't completely impressed with the first issue, but I plan on seeing it out a few more issues before making my final call.
OH, and I hate Gauntlet too. Lame-o.
~W~
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 5, 2007 17:48:35 GMT -5
Having read snippets of the issue and summaries, I am very optimistic for when I do get my hands on it. I doubt it will be as well-written as Civil War or as purely fun as Thunderbolts or Mighty Avengers, but the concept of this and what I've seen are so good I doubt that Daniel Way himself could sully it.
Maybe it's best not to tempt fate.
PS: yes, I admit the Thunderbolts thing was just a crack at you, Balok. Funny how you think it's "so dark" and I rate it as the funnest title on the market, no?
|
|
|
Post by Alchemist-X on Apr 5, 2007 19:43:45 GMT -5
Third, why does the Initiative get to steal from Armory when it washes her out (apparently also performing surgery on her against her will - or something). Simply because they want her tech? Unless they issued her that weapon they have no right to it. They can tell her that she's not a hero, and they can tell he she's not to use her powers under the totalitarian SHRA, but that should be the end of it, unless the law has facets that legalize this sort of theft. I'll reserve some judgment until/unless we learn where she got that device, but unless the Initiative gave it to her, it's wrong for them to take it, even if she washes out. Especially since she washed out because of poor training. And Yellowjacket was right there watching, so he's lost the hard won respect slowly regained after he lost it all for dotting Jan's eye years ago. If you consider the implications of the SHRA it would really only make sense that washouts be stripped of their powers if possible. I think that any washouts who keep their powers would be extremely dangerous to the system that the SHRA is trying to create, and could even potentially turn to supercrime. As for Yellowjacket, that guy is the Ultimate Superhero patsy. He was blamed for the most recent Thunderbolts/Avengers conflict at least once, he beat his wife, the man will find no redemption ever. For every step forward someone writes for him, there are 50 writers more than willing to write him 30 steps backward. Whenever Marvel needs a good guy to do something wrong, but be accepted back for it, They'll turn to this guy.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 5, 2007 19:52:29 GMT -5
If you consider the implications of the SHRA it would really only make sense that washouts be stripped of their powers if possible. I think that any washouts who keep their powers would be extremely dangerous to the system that the SHRA is trying to create, and could even potentially turn to supercrime. I'm not sure they're any more likely to turn to Supercrime than are people who never join. But evidently Rust Age Marvel shares your opinion. As for Yellowjacket, that guy is the Ultimate Superhero patsy. He was blamed for the most recent Thunderbolts/Avengers conflict at least once, he beat his wife, the man will find no redemption ever. For every step forward someone writes for him, there are 50 writers more than willing to write him 30 steps backward. Whenever Marvel needs a good guy to do something wrong, but be accepted back for it, They'll turn to this guy. Perhaps this is the answer. More and more, though, when I look to Marvel's heroes I find only disappointment. Iron Man adopting ends justify the means, Reed Richards a spineless toady, Yellowjacket and Iron Man responsible for creating and recreating the murderous Clor, and so on.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 5, 2007 20:52:16 GMT -5
It's not just Cap who was a victim of CW... The whole concept of superheroism, as we knew it in the old, uncool Marvel is dead as well...
|
|
|
Post by thew40 on Apr 6, 2007 15:44:42 GMT -5
It's not just Cap who was a victim of CW... The whole concept of superheroism, as we knew it in the old, uncool Marvel is dead as well... Because they're making sure that there no more wreckless people with powers out there by training them? What are the Avengers then, if not heroes? What is Spider-Man? The Fantastic Four? The X-Men? They're still heroes. They may have a dark patch here and there, but they are still heroes. It's not like everything they do is negative or that they're only doing it for themselves. ~W~
|
|
|
Post by Tana Nile on Apr 6, 2007 16:03:38 GMT -5
It's not just Cap who was a victim of CW... The whole concept of superheroism, as we knew it in the old, uncool Marvel is dead as well... Because they're making sure that there no more wreckless people with powers out there by training them? What are the Avengers then, if not heroes? What is Spider-Man? The Fantastic Four? The X-Men? They're still heroes. They may have a dark patch here and there, but they are still heroes. It's not like everything they do is negative or that they're only doing it for themselves. ~W~ For me, the problem is, there's now a system behind superheroing, and that system has been shown repeatedly to be corrupt. That casts a huge shadow over all of the registered heroes. Pre-SRA, heroes by and large were motivated to do good deeds by their own sense of moral responsibility. Now with the SRA, it appears that many are going to be told where to go and what to do, and that motivation is now coming from some governmental agency. It feels far less heroic. It reminds me of a situation with some of my nieces, all in high school: they have mandatory "volunteerism"! Their school requires them to volunteer a certain number of hours every week at shelters, all of which are chosen by the school. When I talked to the girls about this, it was obvious that this was something they didn't necessarily like, but had to do. Is this true volunteerism? What are the girls really learning here? Sure, it may help people, but the spirit of service is not the same. But in an 'ends justify the means' sense, I suppose it works.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 6, 2007 17:48:49 GMT -5
I lovew how- it's Balok who's most guilty of this- there's this one situation, this one time when Stark and Richards aree absolutely 100% definitely beyond doubt certain that if they fail, ALL of super heroes will be outlawed or else a superhuman apocalypse will happen, and to prevent this they do what they have to because they KNOW what will happen otherwise...
...I love that because of this one situation everyone seems convinced that Stark and Richards always now and always will believe the ends justify the means in any case. Very amusing.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 6, 2007 18:00:17 GMT -5
Because they're making sure that there no more wreckless people with powers out there by training them? No. Because the system established for this purpose is not voluntary, and is corrupt. It is likely that Gyrich's "people upstairs" were interested in Trauma for the purpose of interrogation. That ability would be very useful in that line of work. Probably they put Trauma together with Armory, without warning her, to see how someone unprepared would react. They got their answer and it cost MPV his life. This, I'm supposed to regard as training? Then they used that excuse to steal technology from Armory that, as far as we now know, wasn't theirs to begin with. Starting with what Tony did to establish it, and working through the Initiative as displayed in this issue we see an undercurrent of decidedly unheroic corruption and vileness, and long established heroes who once would have fought fiercely against such things are instead falling into line with it. As if the only thing that mattered any more was respect for authority. This nascence of totalitarianism.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 6, 2007 18:02:13 GMT -5
I lovew how- it's Balok who's most guilty of this- there's this one situation, this one time when Stark and Richards aree absolutely 100% definitely beyond doubt certain that if they fail, ALL of super heroes will be outlawed or else a superhuman apocalypse will happen, No one is a hundred percent certain of the future. And one must always question whether a goal achieved through immoral means is a goal worth achieving. And don't even get me started about the cheap ploy of shamelessly ripping off Asimov's psychohistory and then writing its use incorrectly! Doom's chief problem with me appears to be that I won't agree with him!
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 6, 2007 18:13:10 GMT -5
No, Balok, my chief problem with you as very clearly stated above is that you insist upon trying to use precedent for wildly different situations and assuming human beings are machines where "Well, if they react as such in Situation A, they must react EXACTLY like this in Situation B".
It's been proven by Reed that there is nothing, NOTHING outside the SHRA that can save Earth from a new holocaust. So if there is something, it has to be something even Reed Richards can't predict. So the probability of it is somewhere in the vicinity of 1% at maximum.
So basically what you're saying is it's MORE moral to let the Earth be destroyed praying for something with a 1% chance of happening to happen than it is to do a "little evil for the greater good" and save the Earth? That's what I call one screwed up morality system, friend.
|
|
|
Post by balok on Apr 6, 2007 19:51:39 GMT -5
It's been proven by Reed that there is nothing, NOTHING outside the SHRA that can save Earth from a new holocaust. So if there is something, it has to be something even Reed Richards can't predict. So the probability of it is somewhere in the vicinity of 1% at maximum. So basically what you're saying is it's MORE moral to let the Earth be destroyed praying for something with a 1% chance of happening to happen than it is to do a "little evil for the greater good" and save the Earth? That's what I call one screwed up morality system, friend. You touch here on my chief argument against some of the supposed measures this country has taken to protect itself from terrorists. End of the day, if you let fear change you into something vile, it IS better to be destroyed. This country once respected freedom. I would rather see it destroyed, confident something better could be rebuilt, than see it debased into a police state. And so it is with the Marvel Universe. Rather than see it turn into what it has, I would sooner Galactus drew the life from it. In time, perhaps elsewhere in the universe, some race might recreate the experiment of democracy and respect for individual rights with a better outcome. There are worse things than death.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 6, 2007 20:17:21 GMT -5
No, Balok, my chief problem with you as very clearly stated above is that you insist upon trying to use precedent for wildly different situations and assuming human beings are machines where "Well, if they react as such in Situation A, they must react EXACTLY like this in Situation B". It's been proven by Reed that there is nothing, NOTHING outside the SHRA that can save Earth from a new holocaust. So if there is something, it has to be something even Reed Richards can't predict. So the probability of it is somewhere in the vicinity of 1% at maximum. So basically what you're saying is it's MORE moral to let the Earth be destroyed praying for something with a 1% chance of happening to happen than it is to do a "little evil for the greater good" and save the Earth? That's what I call one screwed up morality system, friend. You may call it that, Doom, but the fact is that many of the greatest minds who, through the centuries, have dwelled on ethics, morals & spiritualism have arrived to precisely that conclusion: the end does not justify the means, and the corollary that well intentioned people, on using dubious ends for achieving their noble goals, have enmeshed themselves and, often, innocent bystanders as well, into an ever-downward spiraling path which gets darker & darker... hence: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". The excuse of performing heinous deeds in the name of necesity is an old one, friend... probably one of the oldest... and it leaves Reed & Tony in very unsavory company... Look, quite frankly, if Marvel indeed made clear that it was 100 % a certainty that without the SHRA the world would end, as you say, then it was a case of one of the worst lame-a-- justifications for an event & for mischaracterization that I have ever seen, just plain horrible writing, in other words... NOBODY, not Reed, not your namesake, are infallible; nobody can't predict any one particular future for certain, not even in the MU... And then there's the matter of trusting even 51% the goverment to be in charge of the superhumans. There's a reason why Cap opposed US Agent when he was wearing his uniform & leading the New Invaders into interfering in the affairs of another country... It's because, when well written, Cap is a very different character than US Agent... the latter is the kind of superhuman who's filled with pseudo-patriotism & an "us against them" type of mentality... as such, he is really quite naive & easily manipulated by unworthy or uncaring goverment officials, as he will always be ready to do as he's told, for he confuses "country" with "current government", thinking they're one & the same... Cap, on the other hand, knew that sometimes the truly patriotic thing to do is to honorably oppose your own government, for the ideals of America, unlike the goverment & it's officials, don't change and, in the wors of a movie I love: "are definitely not subject to negotiation"; yes, Doom, he even knew that sometimes, out of love for his country, that even means going against popular laws and sentiments... just as Iron Man and most of the Avengers used to know... That's why the old Marvel was so irreverent, and why the Avengers & other Marvel heroes never put themselves directly under the orders of the US government or even the UN, before (I mean in the militarized way so many of them are willing to accept now: because they knew that there would be left very vulnerable to the manipulations of greedy, uncaring, power-lusting officials or infiltrators or, even, as is the case witn IM as currently written, by good-intentioned people willing to use unethical means to achieve worthy goals... Also, it's kinda naive to think that, if faced with another tough moment of decision -and we knoe he will...- IM will resist the temptation of using underhanded means again... after all, why mess with success...? And he's definitely one of those people with an adictive personality...
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 6, 2007 20:18:21 GMT -5
Doom, Tony has proven at other times in the past that he will use the ends to justify the means. Armor wars, rather than clue everyone in, he took the situation in his own hands and killed one person, attacked an Avenger and betrayed Cap, knowing ahead of time he would have to. I don't have my IM back issues to go through, but I can remember there are plenty of other times where he used people to get what he wanted.
Now Reed, on the other hand, that was one of the things that bothered me. He has not been an end/means kinda guy. He always seemed to me to be the guy who'd go out of his way NOT to do that. Also he always one to know there is always a way to beat the long odds.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 6, 2007 20:22:43 GMT -5
I had to exalt you after reading your last post on this thread, Balok... Well said!!!
|
|
|
Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 6, 2007 22:11:16 GMT -5
So basically what you're saying is it's MORE moral to let the Earth be destroyed praying for something with a 1% chance of happening to happen than it is to do a "little evil for the greater good" and save the Earth? That's what I call one screwed up morality system, friend. When one’s morality entails throwing itself away, then one is left with no morality at all.
|
|
|
Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 7, 2007 14:30:08 GMT -5
I am trying to work on my compulsion to buy a complete set of a title once I've bought the first issue. I am tempering that with the guidance given on this site by someone who encourages not to judge a series by the first book.
That being said.
Issue 2 will need to go farther to hold my attention. For me, it's not about disliking an artist. It's just the story doesn't grab me. Them going out of their way to show Gyrich as the slimey government typ is done to death. Most of the new characters are just not that interesting to me. The separation of people from their powers seems like it is gonna be problematic.
I hope it picks up, I really want to like it.
|
|