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Post by uberwolf on Nov 22, 2006 23:21:40 GMT -5
As long as we're doing the super hero couple thing.... suppose some crappy writer came up with the storyline Captain America must marry or 500 babies will die, who should should be the lucky girl?
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 23, 2006 2:32:59 GMT -5
Too bad DC wouldn't allow it to be Wonder Woman...! Similar taste in clothes & all... You know who I think might be a good candidate...? (Gosh, I hope nobody hates me for this): Echo/Ronin... Really! I would not want her for anything on any serious Avengers' roster this side of "What the... ", but I think she could be a good match & partner for Cap. Failing that, I would put together a storyline where Miss America comes back from the dead & falls for Cappy.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 23, 2006 3:28:35 GMT -5
I just started a similar thread below, but I'll repost my comments here because it happens to be on-topic. Ever since reading the Invaders 20+ years ago, I've thought that Cap and Jacqueline Falsworth (Spitfire) would make a great couple. She served with Cap throughout WWII, and all the while had an intense, silent crush on him. Cap never returned it both because of his own natural shyness, and the Torch's prior interest in her. For those who haven't read the Invaders, the love triangle between the stolid and awkward Cap, the naive and enthusiastic Spitfire, and the smitten but inferior-feeling Torch was one of the best things Roy Thomas did on the title. Jacquline is Cap's contemporary in age (Steve was born in 1917, Jacqueline in about 1925) and shares experiences and beliefs in a way that really no other character does. She's been de-aged recently to roughly the age she was during the war. While super-powered, she's a fairly low-level superhuman, which presents few if any problems to Cap's "street-level" book. Those of you who read Captain America know she had prominent role in a recent arc. For what it's worth, my opinion is that Mr. Brubaker actually does intend to develop a relationship between the two of them over the next 2-3 years. Not necessarily carry it through, but develop. On the downside my opinion is also that Mr. Brubaker ultimately intends to develop it to the point the fans are interested, and then expend her for dramatic purposes ala Jack Monroe. I give Cap a 90% chance of ending up with Sharon (a thousand ughs!) and a 10% of ending up with Spitfire over the next few years.
RSC
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 23, 2006 3:35:33 GMT -5
You know who I think might be a good candidate...? (Gosh, I hope nobody hates me for this): Echo/Ronin... Really! I would not want her for anything on any serious Avengers' roster this side of "What the... ", but I think she could be a good match & partner for Cap. I hate you for this. Jeeze, Ronin has to be one of Bendis' worst ideas, which given that we're talking about Bendis here, is truly saying something. Cap could never live down dating a girl in a man-suit. People would talk. Not to mention the whole handprint-on-face thing. It's not attractive. RSC
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 23, 2006 16:54:26 GMT -5
Uuummm... now that's an idea...!!! A thread with a poll to vote on Bendis' worst idea ever...! IMO, though, having Ares in the Mighty Avengers marginally trumps Ronin, the Avengers He/She... Well, what if she would ditch the man-suit...? Still no love...?
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Post by von Bek on Nov 24, 2006 9:07:50 GMT -5
Uuummm... now that's an idea...!!! A thread with a poll to vote on Bendis' worst idea ever...! IMO, though, having Ares in the Mighty Avengers marginally trumps Ronin, the Avengers He/She... Well, what if she would ditch the man-suit...? Still no love...? Without that stupid sci-fi ninja disguise she could potentially be an interesting character, but not as Cap´s wife. Maybe Hawkeye´s? Clint had lost (part of) his hearing too before Heroes Reborn and suffered under BENDIS! like Eccho/ Ronin (could this guy stop ripping Frank Miller´s stuff off? Now a character named "Ronin"...)
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 24, 2006 13:35:17 GMT -5
Yes, but apparently the uberhackfuhrer has plans for Clint & Wanda instead... unless they turn out to be clones, or robo-clones, or perhaps even clownes (someone in other thread mentioned how scary clowns can be, so...)...
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ozbot
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 103
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Post by ozbot on Nov 24, 2006 14:21:00 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that Cap needs a superpowered gf. Why not have a civilian? I know that it's a cliche if she would become the target of any supervillain attack, but still... It seems kinda fitting for an "everyman" to have a regular wife. Uh, that sounded weird. You know waht I mean.
That said, I liked Cap's early struggles over Agent 13 and I liked the Diamondback relationship.
Or, you could invert the expectation... Maybe Cap falls for an Inhuman? A Kree? A Eternal? An Olympian or Asgardian? It would be interesting to see Cap deal with a relationship where he is less famous, less powerful, etc.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 24, 2006 15:47:08 GMT -5
Now, once again I find myself interested plot-wise by a book I despise with unrelenting passion, for the most part: if indeed those ARE Clint & Wanda, and they start a romantic relationship, it would be interesting to see if Cap could actually feel jealous of Clint, as during Disassembled he -sorta, almost...- started a relationship with the Witch himself, and at the time he seemed to be growing increasingly comfortable with the idea, despite some misgivings (we're talking about Cap, after all...). I remember it because I bought that issue where Cap & Wanda appear locked in a kiss on the cover... I have very seldom collected CA through the years, but I have to admit that the cover I'm talking about really caught my attention. Now, if this scenario would happen, Cap being jealous of Hawkeye, this would slightly change their interpersonal dynamics, even if it were only for the time being as, traditionaly, it has usually been the other way around for those two: Clint jealous of Steve. On the other hand, that would make Wanda the -no contest, I think- queen of love geometrical shapes, leaving triangles waaay behind.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 25, 2006 0:57:00 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that Cap needs a superpowered gf. Why not have a civilian? I know that it's a cliche if she would become the target of any supervillain attack, but still... It seems kinda fitting for an "everyman" to have a regular wife. Uh, that sounded weird. You know waht I mean. Non-super interests inevitably fall into one of two cliches: 1)The damsel-in-distress cliche 2)The "I can't take you running off risking your life" cliche Cap, more than any other superhero, needs a girl who understands the business he's in, understands that he will never give it up, and understands that she will always come second to his duty. Nothing could be more tiresome than another whiny Bernie or Connie. I think a distinction should be made between "in the business" and "superpowered." A non-powered character like DB or, God forbid, Sharon, still works because they're "in the business." Some of those possibilities could be interesting on a theoretical basis. Sersi (an Eternal) pursued him back in the Avengers circa #325, but he rebuffed her. Ms. Marvel was briefly teased as an interest in Avengers #194. There could be some intersting story possibilities in contrasting Cap's old fashion values with a girlfriend that is on the order of 100 times stronger than he is. However, this sort of thing presents serious problems for Cap's book. For example, Crossbones has always been a particularly tough opponent for Cap. Now imagine that Sersi is a regular in Cap's book. She'd put Crossbones in a block of concrete, or turn him inside-out, or physically graft his body onto a cow. All the situations Cap struggles to overcome could be solved with a snap of the fingers by Sersi, Ms. Marvel, etc. RSC
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 25, 2006 1:36:04 GMT -5
Now, once again I find myself interested plot-wise by a book I despise with unrelenting passion, for the most part: if indeed those ARE Clint & Wanda, and they start a romantic relationship, it would be interesting to see if Cap could actually feel jealous of Clint, as during Disassembled he -sorta, almost...- started a relationship with the Witch himself, and at the time he seemed to be growing increasingly comfortable with the idea, despite some misgivings (we're talking about Cap, after all...). Don't be fooled by another of Bendis' idiotic ideas. The proposed Hawkeye/Wanda thing is at least as stupid as the Cap/Wanda thing and probably more so. Bendis promoted Cap/Wanda in AD, but he's de-legitimizing the Cap/Wanda idea because he can't stick with it. Now it's Wanda/Clint. What's next? Will it be revealed that Wanda always had a secret crush on Iron Man? Or Jarvis? Cap was temporarily close to Wanda because he was being mind-controlled/mind-altered. Period. Over 40 years of Avengers history, Cap has declined to pursue a relationship with a teammate at least 4 times -- Wanda, Black Widow, Sersi, and Ms. Marvel. (There are probably more examples.) This isn't an accident -- it's consistent characterization.As I mentioned above, he'd probably never seriously consider a relationship with someone on his team. Furthermore, the idea of stooping to jealousy over a woman is basically so far outside Cap's characterization as to be unbelievable. RSC
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 25, 2006 2:09:07 GMT -5
Well, I'm not sure I completely agree, redstatecap; after all, Cap's only human, in spite of his (when handled acurately) admirably heroic traits. After all, I didn't say giving in to jealousy... I agree Cap would never do that, at least not more than for the briefest instant, but to FEEL jealous is very human, after all, and I wouldn't put this as unthinkable for Cap to experience... And, of course, being Cap, he wouldn't dwell on it for too long (by Marvel's standards) & then he would move on... But I definitely agree when you say that he probably would never seriously consider another active Avenger for a romantic interest. If for no other reason, because Cap, being more often than not their leader, would feel that having his girlfriend on the team could be the cause at any given moment for a conflict of interests.
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 25, 2006 3:32:07 GMT -5
The reason I stated a scenario where Cap HAD to get married is based on Cap's sense of duty. I don't think he would marry otherwise. The man has spent nearly his entire life in the service of his country. There have been times when he's become disillusioned, his Nomad and just plain "The Captain" phases, but when is enough enough? I haven't followed CW at all but it seems Cap has realized the country he's been fighting for is becoming as bad as the Nazi regime he was created to fight. Could he just away and say the heck with it and try a normal life for once.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 25, 2006 10:47:29 GMT -5
Well, I'm not sure I completely agree, redstatecap; after all, Cap's only human, in spite of his (when handled acurately) admirably heroic traits. After all, I didn't say giving in to jealousy... I agree Cap would never do that, at least not more than for the briefest instant, but to FEEL jealous is very human, after all, and I wouldn't put this as unthinkable for Cap to experience...And, of course, being Cap, he wouldn't dwell on it for too long (by Marvel's standards) & then he would move on... I should point out that another very consistent facet of Cap's characterization is that he doesn't pursue women -- they pursue him. He's almost always seen as either indifferent or oblivious to the advances of one female or another. Honestly the single example (that I can recall) of Cap being more the initiator was Sharon back in the 1960s. This makes it tough for me to believe that Cap would be inclined to jealousy, because that would imply that he was pursuing her. Agreed. RSC
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 25, 2006 16:21:53 GMT -5
The Black Cat ;D I'd love to see how he would react to her amoral behaviours
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 26, 2006 0:28:44 GMT -5
The Black Cat ;D I'd love to see how he would react to her amoral behaviours He'd probably react like he did with Diamondback initially and jump out of a plane to get away from her. RSC
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 9, 2006 16:05:31 GMT -5
If Cap were to get married, it would seem fitting if his wife somehow served as a personification of values just as Cap does. While some sort of “Mrs. America” character would be the obvious nod in that direction, it could be more interesting if the character’s symbolism contrasted against Cap’s—though, one would hope, not so heavily as to lead to irreconcilability. A topical choice for today’s world (and one that may remain relevant for decades to come) would be a Muslim, preferably from a real-world predominantly Muslim country (Iraq? Indonesia?). Or maybe a Mexican or Mexican-American with ties to the illegal-immigration issue that has so vexed many Americans over the years. My idea is that such a hypothetical character would not only come from the culture in question but also represent it as a superhero à la Cap. I suggest these options because too many view those peoples as fundamentally incompatible with American values; and the marriage could demonstrate that, while there are differences that could spark some marital conflict, ultimately harmonious coexistence is possible between the individuals and between their respective peoples.
Modified: For greater clarity, in the last sentence I replaced a comma with a semicolon and added a second iteration of the word “between”.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 9, 2006 16:06:31 GMT -5
The Black Cat ;D I'd love to see how he would react to her amoral behaviours He'd probably react like he did with Diamondback initially and jump out of a plane to get away from her. Heh, I thought the same thing. ;D
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 9, 2006 18:18:16 GMT -5
Well, how about Firebird then, Night Phantom...?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 9, 2006 18:40:26 GMT -5
Well, how about Firebird then, Night Phantom...? That’s Hank Pym’s girl—! I didn’t have any preëxisting characters in mind, but possibly Bonita could be built up into such a character. I would prefer that said character have a codename, costume, and stated mission that more prominently expressed her cultural affiliation, just like Captain America.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 9, 2006 23:21:10 GMT -5
Now, that's interesting to think about, Night Phantom... Is there already such a character out there, in the MU, or would she have to be created...? To my knowledge, there isn't, that is, someone who falls between the parameters you specified: codename, costume & stated mission, whether we say the Muslim or the Hispanic worlds/communities, but I could very well be wrong...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 9, 2006 23:42:32 GMT -5
To my knowledge, there isn't, that is, someone who falls between the parameters you specified: codename, costume & stated mission, whether we say the Muslim or the Hispanic worlds/communities, but I could very well be wrong... I don’t believe there is such a person either—but with the Marvel Universe being such a big place, it’s hard to be certain!
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Post by redstatecap on Dec 9, 2006 23:54:03 GMT -5
If Cap were to get married, it would seem fitting if his wife somehow served as a personification of values just as Cap does. While some sort of “Mrs. America” character would be the obvious nod in that direction, it could be more interesting if the character’s symbolism contrasted against Cap’s—though, one would hope, not so heavily as to lead to irreconcilability. A topical choice for today’s world (and one that may remain relevant for decades to come) would be a Muslim, preferably from a real-world predominantly Muslim country (Iraq? Indonesia?). Or maybe a Mexican or Mexican-American with ties to the illegal-immigration issue that has so vexed many Americans over the years. My idea is that such a hypothetical character would not only come from the culture in question but also represent it as a superhero à la Cap. I suggest these options because too many view those peoples as fundamentally incompatible with American values; and the marriage could demonstrate that, while there are differences that could spark some marital conflict, ultimately harmonious coexistence is possible between the individuals and between their respective peoples. I believe that this approach is an unfortunate one. Cap is too often used as a mouthpiece for whatever political ax a given writer wants to grind. I believe that one should have respect for the character, and "write the character." I don't believe this includes making him into the proponent of some nebulous vision of racial/religious unity one day, and the next day whatever other trendy political philosophy comes down the pike. I had a strong impression that this was happening in CA vol. 3 and 4, where in succession he had an Hispanic and an Asian girlfriend. I figure the writers were intent on "proving" how hip and egalitarian Cap was by having him date "ethnic" women. I don't believe that this kind of tokenism accomplishes anything. RSC
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 7:49:57 GMT -5
I believe that this approach is an unfortunate one. Cap is too often used as a mouthpiece for whatever political ax a given writer wants to grind. I believe that one should have respect for the character, and "write the character." I don't believe this includes making him into the proponent of some nebulous vision of racial/religious unity one day, and the next day whatever other trendy political philosophy comes down the pike. I had a strong impression that this was happening in CA vol. 3 and 4, where in succession he had an Hispanic and an Asian girlfriend. I figure the writers were intent on "proving" how hip and egalitarian Cap was by having him date "ethnic" women. I don't believe that this kind of tokenism accomplishes anything. I object to the notions that A) desire for egalitarian human unity is merely a “trendy political philosophy”, B) said desire is not part of Cap’s character, and C) fiction that attempts to portray it in action is automatically engaging in mere tokenism.
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Post by redstatecap on Dec 10, 2006 11:04:45 GMT -5
I object to the notions that A) desire for egalitarian human unity is merely a “trendy political philosophy”, B) said desire is not part of Cap’s character, and C) fiction that attempts to portray it in action is automatically engaging in mere tokenism. I'm not saying that "Cap should never date a non-white." If the relationship clearly started for a story reason, I don't have a problem with it. Firebird during her time with the Avengers would be a pretty good example of someone of similar beliefs, in a close working environment, who could work. However, starting with the decision that you want to make a political/social point, and then hammering out a story to fit that mold, I don't agree with at all. Certainly some issues will have plot points that attempt to deliver a political/social message. Sometimes they are even good ideas. But I don't agree with using such an important facet of the character's life (marriage) to do this. I hope you can see the distinction here. RSC
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 11:56:23 GMT -5
If the relationship clearly started for a story reason, I don't have a problem with it. Firebird during her time with the Avengers would be a pretty good example of someone of similar beliefs, in a close working environment, who could work. However, starting with the decision that you want to make a political/social point, and then hammering out a story to fit that mold, I don't agree with at all. Why can’t it be both? (And if both motives were present, it seems to me that you wouldn’t necessarily know that the second one was.) In any case, I would agree that the latter approach when taken alone would be undesirable. Usually, when I suggest something to be done, I don’t mean that it should be done poorly! For the record, my suggestion was predicated on the hypothetical situation that, one way or another, Cap was going to be married off. Frankly, I think I’d prefer to see Steve remain single. But I decided to run with the “if” as a given. I proceeded from my view that Cap’s character, to a greater degree than most “headliners”, is wrapped in a certain set of philosophies and symbols, which often form the basis of his story directions. So, my suggestion was an attempt to satisfy that traditional characterization. It might not be the only way to do so. I think it can be done well, but that’s not to say that any such attempt would necessarily be done well. Also, I didn’t envision a particular timeframe in which the hypothetical marriage would have to come to be, and so I’m comfortable with the idea that it might take several years (our time, not necessarily Marvel time—sheesh!) for it to develop, whether by chance or design or some combination. If the marriage didn’t feel right (i.e., if it didn’t fit the psychological characterization as well as the more abstract philosophical/symbolic characterization) by the time it took place, then I would consider it a failure of storytelling.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 12:10:08 GMT -5
By the way, a few more words about Firebird as a possible future wife for Cap. In terms of personalities, I could see it developing. Although she is clearly a Hispanic American (of Mexican descent, I believe—if I recall correctly, she has ancestors who lived in northern parts of Mexico that later became part of the United States), I don’t see her character, as currently or previously depicted, as symbolizing that cultural heritage strongly. (I’m guessing that Marvel doesn’t either: they seemed content to run with the contention—possibly started by the press, not Marvel—that Araña was Marvel’s first Latina superheroine!) In my view, to get good mileage out of the concept, Firebird would need to be positioned more specifically as not just a Hispanic heroine, but a Hispanic-oriented heroine (just as Cap is not merely an American hero but an American-oriented one). I suppose this could happen even after the hypothetical marriage took place.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 10, 2006 13:36:21 GMT -5
Uuummm... well, since perhaps the main reason for that is Firebird's underuse as a character, with the exceptions of when she was running with the West Coasters and, more recently, during the Kang War storyline, I would qualify your statement, Night Phantom... It seems to me that, quite often, she's been -briefly- shown to be highly commited to her small western community, a commitment which is deeply interwined with her strong religious beliefs. That would be an interesting mix, I think since, to my knowledge, while Cap's convictions are as strong as humanly possible, they stem from a markedly secular, humanistic point of view and he's not known for spouting or spousing any particular set of religious belief systems, again, to my -admitedly limited- knowledge of Cap's solo adventures.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Dec 10, 2006 13:38:55 GMT -5
By the way, wasn't Firebird's background supposed to include an american native lineage, as well as a hispanic one...?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Dec 10, 2006 15:17:06 GMT -5
It seems to me that, quite often, she's been -briefly- shown to be highly commited to her small western community, a commitment which is deeply interwined with her strong religious beliefs. That would be an interesting mix, I think since, to my knowledge, while Cap's convictions are as strong as humanly possible, they stem from a markedly secular, humanistic point of view and he's not known for spouting or spousing any particular set of religious belief systems, again, to my -admitedly limited- knowledge of Cap's solo adventures. Recall that for a short while, Bonita even changed her codename to “La Espirita” (I guess that’s supposed to mean “The Spirit”, but I’m not sure it’s authentic Spanish—I would expect something like “El Espíritu”—but then, codenames like “Magneto” aren’t authentic English either) and positioned herself as a specifically Christian-oriented heroine. She doesn’t seem to take that overt stance anymore, though I think that she’s still Christian on a personal level. It’s reasonable to assume that her religious beliefs would be a palpable part of any marriage she would enter into, though it’s hard to say how much of that aspect the writing would show. I believe I read somewhere that Stan Lee in general purposely avoided indicating his characters’ religious affiliations, making them everymen and everywomen in that aspect (as he often did in other aspects, too). In my early days of the Marvel Universe (before I read the above about Stan), I guessed that the regular characters were mostly Christians of various sorts, at least nominally: they were generally American (and therefore likely to reflect America’s predominant Christian affiliation), they tended not to have civilian names suggesting other religions, they occasionally underwent rites (marriages, funerals) that looked Christian to me, and I was used to the idea that American mass-media entertainment tended to act as though its fictional characters were all Christian unless there was some particular reason not to. Even when I realized that Stan Lee and some other important Marvel creators were Jewish, I didn’t alter my theory, since it still seemed to make sense, and I figured that Jewish creators might write goyim for a predominantly Gentile audience. It turns out I was wrong about the Thing—and now that I write this, I wonder what Don Blake’s religious affiliation might be… Steve Rogers is a character who, on the rare occasions I think of him vis-à-vis religious affiliation, I might guess is of Christian background and possibly still of Christian beliefs. That said, I would guess that his religiousness would be fairly mild. But I would be willing to believe that he is nonreligious or possibly that he has some other religious affiliation. I’m not sure this question is ever addressed in the comics, and so it may be a moot point at present. In any case, he seems to have a strong sense of religious tolerance. His strong sense of humanism might argue for his being strictly secular, but humanistic values are not necessarily incompatible with privately holding religious values. I guess that at this point, it’s an open question as to how the intersection of Steve’s and Bonita’s beliefs would play out, should they ever share a romance or even a marriage.
By the way, wasn't Firebird's background supposed to include an american native lineage, as well as a hispanic one...? Well, she’s a native of the United States. I’ve also looked through OHOTMU and West Coast Avengers to verify that she is of Mexican heritage. (Yes, she is.) If you meant an aboriginal American lineage (e.g., Navajo, Chumash)—I don’t know that that has ever been established, though it would not surprise me, since many Mexicans have mestizo ancestry.
I was thinking about Bonita’s suitability or lack thereof as Cap’s mate and thought of a couple of arguments in favor. One is that she established a good rapport with Thor during Busiek’s Avengers run, and I think the common thread of friendships would work in favor of a Cap–Firebird relationship. The aforementioned rapport was built on the notion that Firebird may, like Thor, be more or less immortal—a good quality in the wife of an eternally youthful super-soldier!
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