What The?...Dissassembled -- Review [SPOILERS]

[redstatecap]

Notice that I put "What The?..." in the title instead of "What If?..."
As in "WHAT the F***"
I wasn't sure it was possible to write a story so moronic, so crowded with stupidity, that it could succeed in making Avengers Dissassembled look almost competent by comparison. I'm here to tell you that it is.
The story begins with the Beast and Ms. Marvel taking it upon themselves to investigate and get to the bottom of the reasons for Dissassembled.
Cut to the chase...
The Beast and Ms. Marvel discover that Captain America was having a secret affair with the Scarlet Witch. And furthermore...
Captain America is brain-damaged as a result of the SSS and the time on ice, which leads to his becoming mentally unbalanced. (note: This root reason isn't found out until the end -- I place it at the beginning for clarity.)
After hooking up with Wanda, he convinces her that they should use her power to impose a utopian society on the planet.
To that end, he convinces her that it is necessary to murder their fellow their Avengers, because a blood sacrifice is required to begin to power her up enough to accomplish that goal. All, that is, except the Vision. Cap had Wanda destroy the Vision purely out of jealousy. Are you with me so far? Great!
Cap and the SW agree that she should then pretend to be insane to cover up his role in masterminding the operation.
After much investigation, the Beast and Ms. Marvel figure things out and assemble a team under Cyclops to take on Cap and Wanda, confronting the two of them in Genosha. (Magneto is there as well, but is a construct of Wanda.)
This is ultimately exactly to Captain America's plan. That is, Cap needed the opportunity to provoke a large number of heroes to attack -- and then be murdered by -- Wanda in order to have their deaths fully power-up Wanda's spell to impose Cap's dream of a utopian society on the world. Still with me? Great!
Things are going according to plan until Wanda is touched by Rogue, who was somehow disguised as Ms. Marvel. The utopia-spell fizzles and things return to normal as the heroes gain the upper hand.
At this point, Captain America, in a moment of clarity of the threat he and Wanda pose to the world, induces Wanda to use her powers to enable them to committ suicide together.
.
.
.
Wow. Just, wow. And here with CW going on I thought that the standards for professional competence at Marvel had already reached an all-time low. This has to be by far the worst idea for a What If? ever to see print. Scratch that -- this has to be by far the worst idea for any Marvel comic that has ever seen print.
It had been rumored that this issue might find its way into continuity in some respects. The one upside is that this issue is so laughably idiotic that that will never happen.
There is one legitimate lesson you can pull out of this story, which is that the same basic problem damns this effort as damned Bendis' Dissassembled. That is, a total lack of research. Jeff Parker probably read an issue or two about the SSS driving recipients crazy. Or maybe he just heard something, somewhere. Who knows. And then he said: "AHA! There's my story!" Well, no, Mr. Parker. The Vita-Ray treatment, which Steve Rogers had, is well established as having been the difference in stabilizing the SSS. Everything that follows stands (and collapses) on his totally false assumption. This is a direct parallel with Bendis having the SW go nuts as a result of finding out about her ficticious children, when in fact that story was long-since settled.
Furthermore, Mr. Parker's propostion requires the reader to believe that Cap has essentially been nuts, or going nuts, since the Silver Age. The small problem is that Cap has to be the most level-headed, non-neurotic hero in all of Marvel. I must've missed the part where he's brain-damaged and unstable. lol
There are moments of unintentional hilarity as well. In the final battle between Cap&SW on the one side and the assembled HoM heroes on the other, Wanda pops Iron Man's armor off effortlessly, and Cap seizes the helmet and stuffs it down on Cyclops' head. Cyclops then spends some number of panels blundering about in IM's helmet like one of the Three Stooges, apparently forgetting that he has two hands that could be used to, say, remove the helmet.
I want to know how the hell this story saw print. Honestly. This story makes a 9-year-old's fan fiction look like Pulitzer material.

RSC

[Engage]

That actually sounds pretty good for What If.

I actually want to read this thing now for its insanity. The best What Ifs are the ones that make the least sense in the most bizarre way.

The fact that its Captain America makes it great. If it made more sense it just wouldn't be What If. The point of What If is that nothing makes any sense and ultimately everyone dies in new and exciting ways.

Is it really any different that "What If Wolverine Was Lord of the Vampires", which treated us to a merger of The Punisher and Dr. Strange?

If it was in 616 continuity I would agree, but there's no way anyone can hold a What If up to the same criticism as a regular continuity book.

[redstatecap]

engage said:

That actually sounds pretty good for What If.
I actually want to read this thing now for its insanity. The best What Ifs are the ones that make the least sense in the most bizarre way.
The fact that its Captain America makes it great. If it made more sense it just wouldn't be What If. The point of What If is that nothing makes any sense and ultimately everyone dies in new and exciting ways.
Is it really any different that "What If Wolverine Was Lord of the Vampires", which treated us to a merger of The Punisher and Dr. Strange?
If it was in 616 continuity I would agree, but there's no way anyone can hold a What If up to the same criticism as a regular continuity book.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand the concept of the What If? books.
The What If? format is premised on making one small, believable change, and seeing how things play out.
This story is anything but believable, requiring one to accept that Captain America is insane, while giving a completely false reason for why he is insane.
Put another way -- you could write a What If? where Cap goes insane from the SSS. But you have to account for how that can happen given that it's established that the Vita-Ray treatment has already dealt with this problem. You would also have to explain how Captain America -- the highest profile hero within the MU and leader of the Avengers -- could be insane and no one notices anything. You would also have to explain how he could be insane, but still be able to plot murders in Dissassembled and beyond in a rational manner, and hold it together while it played out. You would also have to account for the fact that this story has Cap being brain damaged and mentally unbalanced for the last 40 years in spite of there being no evidence to support that.
In this story, Cap is being treated as an evil mastermind -- not as a mentally unbalanced individual.

RSC

[Doctor Bong]

To each his/her own, engage; if that's your kind of pleasure in a What If story, fine, good for you but, personally, I have to agree with redstatecap on this one...
Anything should be allowed to happen in a What If, but then a reasonable (for comics) explanation or motivation for what happened & how it happened should be provided, as well as plausible consequences & ramifications, consistent with the internal logic of the given situation.

[Doctor Doom]

Honestly, I find it difficult to rank this below Disassembled on my story-o-meterr or indeed below Infinite Crisis on my "Ridiculously bad characterization-o-meter"

But let's say it's as close as possible

[redstatecap]

Despite my well-known hate-on for Bendis and Dissassembled, this story is in some respects worse. It really is.
Dissassembled presented Wanda as an insane murderer. That's bad enough.
What If? Dissassembled presents Wanda as a sane murderer, and Captain America as an insane murderer. Cap gets thrown under the bus, and Wanda comes off worse than in Dissassembled, since she no longer has the excuse of insanity. Great job, Mr. Parker.
I suppose it's against board rules to toss personal insults at creators, so I'm not going to call Jeff Parker an incompetent clown, even if he displays the characteristics of being an incompetent clown.
My remaining question is, will Mr. Parker's worthy effort on What If? Dissassembled will be rewarded by Marvel brass with a third Avengers title?

RSC

[ozbot]

Aw, heck. My fanfic site, Marvel Flipside, was going to feature Steve Rogers as a villain, precisely because of the same reason-- his brain was damaged due to his suspended animation (although I just might throw in the idea that he didn't receive the vita-ray treatment now that you mention it.) In other differences, Rogers isn't awakened by the Sub-Mariner, he adopts the guise and costume of Phoenix (remember Baron Helmut Zemo's first costumed identity?), and is a villain for the Avengers and Captain America... At least the identity of the Flipside's Captain America can still be mystery... (Flipside's Avengers #3 will come out next Monday)

Dang. I'd say "great minds think alike" but that might get me in trouble with redstatecap! (Chalk me up to being kind of intrigued by the What If sotry)

[Doctor Doom]

RSC confused me for a moment there when he said "Mr Parker"- I thought he was talking about Spider-Man

[imperiusrex]

yeah, but who's to say that this alternate Cap ever got vita rays to stabilize him?
couldn't that in fact be the thing that made this reality possible? there has to have been some difference in order to make it possible, maybe that was it. the noble steve rogers fought the effects for years, but eventually succumbed to the unstable formula...
I'm not saying it's a good story, dude. don't get that impression. I thought the ending was ridiculous.
but you're basing the major gripe on a plot point about Cap, which in our Marvel U, I would totally agree with.
but in an alternate Marvel U, anything is possible i.e. maybe when the Skull did the blood transfusion with Cap (right at the beginning of the waid/ garney run) some of the vita ray treated blood was filtered too excessively.
however I don't want to give it too much credence because I know there's a little next generation brian michael bendis out there reading the story going "gee Cap would make a great villain."

[redstatecap]

imperiusrex said:

yeah, but who's to say that this alternate Cap ever got vita rays to stabilize him?
couldn't that in fact be the thing that made this reality possible? there has to have been some difference in order to make it possible, maybe that was it. the noble steve rogers fought the effects for years, but eventually succumbed to the unstable formula...
I'm not saying it's a good story, dude. don't get that impression. I thought the ending was ridiculous.
but you're basing the major gripe on a plot point about Cap, which in our Marvel U, I would totally agree with.
but in an alternate Marvel U, anything is possible i.e. maybe when the Skull did the blood transfusion with Cap (right at the beginning of the waid/ garney run) some of the vita ray treated blood was filtered too excessively.
however I don't want to give it too much credence because I know there's a little next generation brian michael bendis out there reading the story going "gee Cap would make a great villain."

As I said to Engage above -- the premise of the What If? is to change one thing and see what happens.
Clearly that one thing was not the vita-ray treatment. It wasn't even mentioned, and I'd lay serious money that the writer, Mr. Parker, never even heard of it until the issue got out and people started laughing their asses off. He didn't do his research. Five minutes on a comic board like this one would have been enough to anonymously run the question of Cap's mental stability regarding the SSS past fans who know 1000% more than he does. There's no excuse.
Furthermore, this issue is confusing and inconsistent even as a What If. I wonder if Mr. Parker really understood the premise he was supposed to be writing under, which is that What Ifs start with one clearly defined change and run with it.
For example:
"What If the Avengers Became Pawns of Korvac?"
"What If Captain America was Never Frozen?"
"What If the Invaders Stayed Together After WWII?"
etc.

In this issue -- what is that change? (You need to browse the issue to fully understand what I'm getting at, but I'll try.)
Is it that Wanda is not insane?
Is it that Cap is brain-damaged (if for a specious reason) and insane?
Is it that there is now such a thing as Chaos Magic again?
Is it that certain Avengers decided to investigate AD?
Note on this last question -- from this follows the unpleasant implication that in the real MU, where the Avengers did not to investigate AD, that Captain America actually is an insane villain, since only in the What If? story is he investigated and caught. In other words, has MU Cap gotten away with being an insane murderer because the Beast and Ms. Marvel did not investigate AD in regular Marvel continuity?
The closer you look at this issue the worse it gets.

RSC

[Shiryu]

I pretty much agree with RSC on this one. I usually like what ifs but only as long as they have some sense. For example, there was a "what if Punisher killed the Marvel Universe" (or something like that) which I found pretty rubbish (basically showing Castle to kill each and every hero and villain in the MU by himself, getting only a few minor injuries here and there).
Also, this What If seems not to have a point of divergence, which is the core of these types of books. It seems to be implied that reality changed waaay back to when Cap was revived, and still things were normal until the affair with SW and Disassembled, which doesn't really make sense.
On a better note, the art was nice IMO.

[BigDuke]

In this issue -- what is that change? (You need to browse the issue to fully understand what I'm getting at, but I'll try.)
Is it that Wanda is not insane?
Is it that Cap is brain-damaged (if for a specious reason) and insane?
Is it that there is now such a thing as Chaos Magic again?
Is it that certain Avengers decided to investigate AD?
Note on this last question -- from this follows the unpleasant implication that in the real MU, where the Avengers did not to investigate AD, that Captain America actually is an insane villain, since only in the What If? story is he investigated and caught. In other words, has MU Cap gotten away with being an insane murderer because the Beast and Ms. Marvel did not investigate AD in regular Marvel continuity?
The closer you look at this issue the worse it gets.

RSC

I read this statement and I just got a big chill. Perhaps they are trying to lay AD at Cap's doorstep and he comes outas the bad guy in Civil War. Given the attention to continuity and the desire to make big splash moves over at Marvel right now I am afraid for what they may do.

My paranoid rantings aside, RSC, you really hit the nail on the head: where is the point of divergence?

[ozbot]

RSC, if Marvel could legally title this Esleworlds, would you have as big a problem with it? In other words, I can't get behind one of your biggest gripes (that there needs to be a single point of divergence in order for this to even be considered a proper "what if") You are assuming that all What Ifs that have ever been written and will ever be written must adhere to this principle. That clearly isn't the intent of these 5th-week event comics, which are merely giving an alternate ending to the events of a recent thematic event. You have to judge the comic for what it is, not what it is not. You have plenty you want to talk about regarding what it IS, so those complaints I'll listen to.

[imperiusrex]

redstatecap said:

imperiusrex said:

yeah, but who's to say that this alternate Cap ever got vita rays to stabilize him?
couldn't that in fact be the thing that made this reality possible? there has to have been some difference in order to make it possible, maybe that was it. the noble steve rogers fought the effects for years, but eventually succumbed to the unstable formula...
I'm not saying it's a good story, dude. don't get that impression. I thought the ending was ridiculous.
but you're basing the major gripe on a plot point about Cap, which in our Marvel U, I would totally agree with.
but in an alternate Marvel U, anything is possible i.e. maybe when the Skull did the blood transfusion with Cap (right at the beginning of the waid/ garney run) some of the vita ray treated blood was filtered too excessively.
however I don't want to give it too much credence because I know there's a little next generation brian michael bendis out there reading the story going "gee Cap would make a great villain."

As I said to Engage above -- the premise of the What If? is to change one thing and see what happens.
Clearly that one thing was not the vita-ray treatment. It wasn't even mentioned, and I'd lay serious money that the writer, Mr. Parker, never even heard of it until the issue got out and people started laughing their asses off. He didn't do his research. Five minutes on a comic board like this one would have been enough to anonymously run the question of Cap's mental stability regarding the SSS past fans who know 1000% more than he does. There's no excuse.
Furthermore, this issue is confusing and inconsistent even as a What If. I wonder if Mr. Parker really understood the premise he was supposed to be writing under, which is that What Ifs start with one clearly defined change and run with it.
For example:
"What If the Avengers Became Pawns of Korvac?"
"What If Captain America was Never Frozen?"
"What If the Invaders Stayed Together After WWII?"
etc.

In this issue -- what is that change? (You need to browse the issue to fully understand what I'm getting at, but I'll try.)
Is it that Wanda is not insane?
Is it that Cap is brain-damaged (if for a specious reason) and insane?
Is it that there is now such a thing as Chaos Magic again?
Is it that certain Avengers decided to investigate AD?
Note on this last question -- from this follows the unpleasant implication that in the real MU, where the Avengers did not to investigate AD, that Captain America actually is an insane villain, since only in the What If? story is he investigated and caught. In other words, has MU Cap gotten away with being an insane murderer because the Beast and Ms. Marvel did not investigate AD in regular Marvel continuity?
The closer you look at this issue the worse it gets.

RSC

Well the premise of What If is to view what happens when one reality diverges from another because of a pivotal (although sometimes seemingly minor event). In some issues, it's nothing more than a pause or a heartbeat's decision.
However, in some issues, they clearly show one event prior to the pivotal event that's changed that is also inconsistent with the Marvel U., thus having a domino effect.
Now the title of the What If is "What If The Scarlet Witch hadn't acted alone?" which to me indicates that the event that diverged takes place before the story.
makes sense, right?
Now if you want to keep any possible suspense, you couldn't show a divergent event featuring Cap, could you?
Again, lousy story and yes if they were going to use this gambit, they should've illustrated it at least towards the end, but if the story had started by showing Cap get one less second of vita ray treatment or some other divergent aspect, then the ending is telegraphed, isn't it?
For example, let's say they do a one page recap, showing that Cap didn't get his full vita rays, the gunman burst in two seconds earlier on Prof. Reinstein and the process ends heartbeats earlier, and that's the divergent event. Doesn't that then tell you that Cap will play a huge part in the outcome of the story? And if parker tells you that from the outset, then the story is dead in the water as a mystery.
Now did jeff Parker actually think of that? Probably not, but he couldn't show motivation before the reveal. So we can't know.
I agree the story is rather lame, and doesn't work but I don't think this story is completely inconsistent with What If methods.
And also, so far the only person who says chaos magic doesn't exist is BMB speaking through Strange.
When Disassembled is retconned in ten years or so, I'm sure the inconsistencies, like that one, in the original story will be exploited...

[redstatecap]

ozbot said:

RSC, if Marvel could legally title this Esleworlds, would you have as big a problem with it? In other words, I can't get behind one of your biggest gripes (that there needs to be a single point of divergence in order for this to even be considered a proper "what if") You are assuming that all What Ifs that have ever been written and will ever be written must adhere to this principle. That clearly isn't the intent of these 5th-week event comics, which are merely giving an alternate ending to the events of a recent thematic event. You have to judge the comic for what it is, not what it is not. You have plenty you want to talk about regarding what it IS, so those complaints I'll listen to.

I believe that the What If premise is superior to a book where the writer simply has carte blanche to imagine a new reality in any way he wants to according to whim.
--With multiple changes, the reader must necessarily wonder: if there are so many points of difference just on the page, then there must be differences off the page which logically are affecting the reality we see on panel.
--With multiple changes, the reader must be left wondering just what the impacts of those changes are. Are the multiple changes cancelling each other? Reinforcing each other?
--With multiple changes the reference point of a known reality is lost. With no background stories available to provide context, the reader will care less, if at all, about the story being told.
--With multiple changes the thematic impact is lost. The reader has too many things to focus on, and must wonder what the impacts of each of these are on the plot.
--With multiple changes making it a very different reality, it's hard to see how there could even be a plot. It would have to be written as a totally self-contained one-shot, explaining everything and relying on no previous knowledge.

In short, with a What If? book we get a story that can be placed in the context of known past stories.
With an "alternate reality" book we get a snapshot of a reality with an unknown level of differentiation from the one we know, and with no context to place it in.

Let's take a short example. Let's say that we get an "alternate reality book" (i.e. one where there are many changes, not all of them clear) where on the page it's stated that Captain America's father survived to play a role in his upbringing. Then we see, on the page, a very different-looking and different-acting Captain America. So first we think, "hey, his dad living had a major impact on him."
But did it? Or did the fact that, in this reality, the US lost WWII have a much more important effect on him, and his father surviving was trivial? You see what I'm getting at?

RSC

[redstatecap]

imperiusrex said:

Well the premise of What If is to view what happens when one reality diverges from another because of a pivotal (although sometimes seemingly minor event). In some issues, it's nothing more than a pause or a heartbeat's decision.
However, in some issues, they clearly show one event prior to the pivotal event that's changed that is also inconsistent with the Marvel U., thus having a domino effect.

I haven't read every What If by any stretch, but the ones I have were all right on or close enough to the principle of "one divergent change" to work.

Now the title of the What If is "What If The Scarlet Witch hadn't acted alone?" which to me indicates that the event that diverged takes place before the story.
makes sense, right?
Now if you want to keep any possible suspense, you couldn't show a divergent event featuring Cap, could you?
Again, lousy story and yes if they were going to use this gambit, they should've illustrated it at least towards the end, but if the story had started by showing Cap get one less second of vita ray treatment or some other divergent aspect, then the ending is telegraphed, isn't it?

I agree that, logically, this story would have to have started with a premise like "What if Cap didn't receive the vita-ray treatment." You could preserve the element of surprise by not mentioning on the cover or solicits the association with AD. The reader would go into the story believing it was merely about Cap dealing with a slide into instability, and then the writer springs his responsibility for AD on you.
This could explain his insanity while retaining the element of surprise.
However, this does not explain how he did not go insane in the 4 years of WWII service, or the ten (sliding timeline) years post-freezing.
It also does not explain how Cap could be crazy enough to want to murder his fellow Avengers and take over the world, but not crazy enough for anyone to notice anything amiss.
It also does not account for Wanda not being insane, and in fact being sane, yet willing to go along with it, which is far worse.
Any way you look at the story, it simply can't be salvaged. It's total crap.

RSC

[imperiusrex]

redstatecap said:

imperiusrex said:

Well the premise of What If is to view what happens when one reality diverges from another because of a pivotal (although sometimes seemingly minor event). In some issues, it's nothing more than a pause or a heartbeat's decision.
However, in some issues, they clearly show one event prior to the pivotal event that's changed that is also inconsistent with the Marvel U., thus having a domino effect.

I haven't read every What If by any stretch, but the ones I have were all right on or close enough to the principle of "one divergent change" to work.

Now the title of the What If is "What If The Scarlet Witch hadn't acted alone?" which to me indicates that the event that diverged takes place before the story.
makes sense, right?
Now if you want to keep any possible suspense, you couldn't show a divergent event featuring Cap, could you?
Again, lousy story and yes if they were going to use this gambit, they should've illustrated it at least towards the end, but if the story had started by showing Cap get one less second of vita ray treatment or some other divergent aspect, then the ending is telegraphed, isn't it?

I agree that, logically, this story would have to have started with a premise like "What if Cap didn't receive the vita-ray treatment." You could preserve the element of surprise by not mentioning on the cover or solicits the association with AD. The reader would go into the story believing it was merely about Cap dealing with a slide into instability, and then the writer springs his responsibility for AD on you.
This could explain his insanity while retaining the element of surprise.
However, this does not explain how he did not go insane in the 4 years of WWII service, or the ten (sliding timeline) years post-freezing.
It also does not explain how Cap could be crazy enough to want to murder his fellow Avengers and take over the world, but not crazy enough for anyone to notice anything amiss.
It also does not account for Wanda not being insane, and in fact being sane, yet willing to go along with it, which is far worse.
Any way you look at the story, it simply can't be salvaged. It's total crap.

RSC

The story may say Wanda's sane, but she's sure acting like total loon, so let's take that with a grain of salt...
also, a cover story about what if Cap went crazy doesn't have the sales potential of a disassembled story. You have to have that cover if you want to make money and Joe Q wants the money.
Also cap not going crazy prior is easy enough to explain. he's a man of strong character; he fought the mental instability for years, but finally succumbed.
Stupid? Surely.
Impossible? Not in the Marvel U.

I'm sure plenty of old Marvel fans like you and I were suckered in hoping for an alternate take where we could see maybe Mephisto or Immortus pulling strings and maybe get some satisfaction from that. a "see, our good heroes aren't crazy, someone did this to them" kind of thing.

We didn't get it. In fact the story was just as silly as the original, again, trying for a shock ending that just doesn't add up. But I don't think it violated the laws of What If, only it didn't illustrate them as well as most stories have in the past.
Can we agree that the story was just bad and leave it at that?
I don't think there's any disagreement there...

[ozbot]

redstatecap said:

I believe that the What If premise is superior to a book where the writer simply has carte blanche to imagine a new reality in any way he wants to according to whim.

Well, fair enough, that's your preference. (Although it still is judging the story on what it's not, and not what it is.) Again, if you are telling me to steer clear of this book because it isn't in lock step with past What If stories, then I'm going to say that isn't enough reason for me to stay away. Incidently, was Uatu used as a framing device for the story also? That seems a staple of past What Ifs that you are referring to. If it didn't, is that another example of the author failing to do his research? or that the author is trying to do somethign new?

redstatecap said:

--With multiple changes, the reader must necessarily wonder: if there are so many points of difference just on the page, then there must be differences off the page which logically are affecting the reality we see on panel.

Is that what happened in this story? From your summary, it seems unlikely, as the author told us all the salient points to make *his* story work. But it's hard to prove a negative (since we can only assume there are difference we can't see) so I find this an illogical reason as well. And what about the fan who likes these suppositions, and sees all kinds of storytelling possibilites in this hypothetical example? Worser things have happened-- and one creator even spawned a whole line of comics (MC2) with just this example.

redstatecap said:

--With multiple changes, the reader must be left wondering just what the impacts of those changes are. Are the multiple changes cancelling each other? Reinforcing each other?

A storyline that makes people think? to wonder about other implications? Sounds good to me. But i've already addressed some of the illogic in this with the above example.

redstatecap said:

--With multiple changes the reference point of a known reality is lost. With no background stories available to provide context, the reader will care less, if at all, about the story being told.
--With multiple changes the thematic impact is lost. The reader has too many things to focus on, and must wonder what the impacts of each of these are on the plot.

There is a both a reference and a thematic point. It's Avengers Dissassembled. It's a bit more complex than one single event, but it's a reference and theme that most readers will recognize. I doubt anyone picking up any of these 5th week What Ifs are going to experience "known reality [being] lost" and "too many things to focus on" since they are already familiar with the event as it occured.

redstatecap said:

--With multiple changes making it a very different reality, it's hard to see how there could even be a plot. It would have to be written as a totally self-contained one-shot, explaining everything and relying on no previous knowledge.

Sorry, I'm still not convinced. This was a totally self-contained one-shot, wasn't it? It seems to contain enough for *me* to see a plot. A story should just have to explain *enough,* not *everything* in order for it to be effective. That seems to be your argument, that he didn't explain *enough*. There doesn't need to be a single departure point for this to happen. Why can't it be that the exposure to ice for decades made Cap unhinged?

redstatecap said:

Let's take a short example. Let's say that we get an "alternate reality book" (i.e. one where there are many changes, not all of them clear) where on the page it's stated that Captain America's father survived to play a role in his upbringing. Then we see, on the page, a very different-looking and different-acting Captain America. So first we think, "hey, his dad living had a major impact on him."
But did it? Or did the fact that, in this reality, the US lost WWII have a much more important effect on him, and his father surviving was trivial? You see what I'm getting at?

An example of this sort is hard to use. Cap not receiving a vita-ray treatment and the US losing WWII are not comparable. Let's say in this hypothetical example, the father plays a pivotal role in the story, making it a moody psychological piece about sins of the fathers and redemptive power of family. Then, no, the fact that US lost WWII doesn't really have an impact, does it?

[Doctor Bong]

While I believe most of the posters made excellent points & great sense, I must say that redstatecap's last post is the one that convinced me.

[imperiusrex]

ua2 said:

While I believe most of the posters made excellent points & great sense, I must say that redstatecap's last post is the one that convinced me.

aww if I'd known we were competing I would made charts.
and graphs...

[Doctor Bong]

And don't forget TV spots badmouthing each other...!!!

[sharkar]

This story sounds incredibly lame and as such, is a must-read.

Anyone familiar with "What If...Jessica Jones Had Joined The Avengers?" I think it was published in 2005. Not sure whose fantasy it was supposed to be, but it played out like this: She joins the Avengers, notices Wanda is talking to herself, tips off Cap that Wanda is acting strangely, which leads to Wanda getting help- -so Disassembled never occurs. Oh, and Jessica and Cap get married.

[Doctor Bong]

Yeah, who penned that tale, anyone knows...?

[The Night Phantom]

redstatecap said:

Furthermore, this issue is confusing and inconsistent even as a What If. I wonder if Mr. Parker really understood the premise he was supposed to be writing under, which is that What Ifs start with one clearly defined change and run with it.

That’s assuming he really was supposed to be writing under the classic What If? premise. Editorial may not have explained or expected it. I’m not saying that to excuse the writing, just to point out that the problems might have started higher up, before Jeff Parker was even brought into the project.

However great the scope of guilt, I do think the classic rule should have been respected. Ozbot asked whether the story would have been acceptable under another name (besides What If?). Setting aside his actual question, I ask another: why present under the What If? name without following the What If? tradition? (I’ve said similar things about the current Avengers comic…) If the story is valid (let’s just assume that for the sake of argument), why not give it a name that isn’t a misnomer? If Marvel’s going to blatantly misuse its own trademarks, it might as well have referred to the story event as X-Men Disassembled! For that matter, I was bemused by the title of this special even before I learned the specifics of the story. Both Marvel tradition and English tradition hold that the words following “What If” should form a sentence. Clearly, Marvel was not seeking to adhere to that standard—yet the title does form a sentence. And I found it a confusing one—for the Avengers had disassembled!


Modified: inserted the word “higher” in the last sentence of paragraph 1—it had mysteriously disappeared during the editing process.

[The Night Phantom]

ua2 said:

Yeah, who penned that tale, anyone knows...?

I believe the initials were “BMB”…

[redstatecap]

Yeah, the What If? Jessica Jones issue was Bendis' product. Yeesh. Cap falls out of a quinjet and falls in love with Jessica Jones in the middle of a battle. Genius.
I don't know what it is about Bendis, but he does seem to have a bizarre interest in hooking Cap up with curious choices. Jessica Jones? Scarlet Witch?
At some point in the future I honestly believe he's going to reveal that his favorite Spider-Woman has a crush on Cap.

RSC