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Post by Doctor Doom on May 3, 2007 10:48:35 GMT -5
This question gets asked time and time again, but it needs a new poll each time to reflect the current thinking of the forum  Who is the Avengers' greatest foe? Who is the enemy who, every time they come up, you think Excellent, the REAL grudge match. For me, the Avengers are interesting is that they are the only major franchise for whom it's really a dispute. Fantastic Four will ALWAYS have Doom as the nemesis, SPidey will always have the Goblin pull ahead (though Venom and Doc Ock may be close behind), Daredevil has the Kingpin with Bullseye a second, and the X-Men have Magneto, with Apocalypse a distant second. But with the Avengers, it seems no one can agree. 9/10 times either Kang or Ultron seems to be picked but the fanbase is in dispute about them. So I wanna know the most updated opinions; who is their greatest foe and WHY? What makes them such a threat, what is that great dynamic? For myself, Iread the Shooter Ultron Stories and always thought Ultron. Ultron Unlimited reinforced that. Then "Avengers Forever" and "The Kang War" turned me totally and irrevocably around on Kang, with a whole new spin that made me love him. Now for me, it's neck and neck with maybe a slight advantage to the Conqueror. But I want to know YOUR views! |
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Post by Tana Nile on May 3, 2007 10:51:42 GMT -5
You left out Ninjas??!!!  Seriously, I would say Ultron. Not only is he incredibly hard to stop, but he has connections to the team that go deep. The emotional level is always up a notch when they fight him (her?). |
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Post by Nutcase65 on May 3, 2007 11:47:17 GMT -5
I'm gonna pick Loki. He's the reason we have them and his animosity towards his brother has attached itself to them as well. He might not be in there as often as Ultron or Kang, but I vote for him.
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Post by dlw66 on May 3, 2007 12:03:41 GMT -5
I think this question needs to be answered at two levels -- immediate physical threat (Ultron) and potentially greatest adversary (Kang). While there have been some great Kang stories through the years, he is truly untapped potential. The number of "across time and space" stories that can be told with him is limitless. Coupled with the Avengers roster through the years, the alternate reality characters that pop up from time-to-time, and the whole Kang/Immortus/Rama tut/Doom/Scarlet Centurion identity crisis make Kang the greatest overall threat. Obviously, I voted for Kang  . |
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Post by iastagehand on May 3, 2007 19:20:29 GMT -5
i went with ultron cuz you got to keep it in the family. Kang would be my second choice
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Post by ultron69 on May 7, 2009 7:22:18 GMT -5
Kang is a good choice, but I went with Ultron, largely because of his connection to several of the Avengers. Kang has had some great stories, but ultimately, I would hope that the greatest foe of a 20th/21st century team is not somebody from 40th century.
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Post by bobc on May 7, 2009 9:04:22 GMT -5
I'd say Ultron. I said this a while back but I'll repeat it: John Buscema created Ultron but when I spoke to John, he didn't even remember who Ultron was! I had to explain Ultron to John and then he remembered!
I'd put the Masters of Evil and Kang at number 2.
But in terms of a seriously kick ass battle, nobody tops Nefaria from the Byrne years. Now THAT was a memorable battle.
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Post by ultron69 on May 7, 2009 11:46:08 GMT -5
You spoke to John Buscema? That's pretty cool.
I agree, the Nefaria battle was awesome. I just re-read it last week, in fact.
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Post by bobc on May 7, 2009 13:10:24 GMT -5
Ultron--back in 2001 I think--I was working at Acclaim and one day this artist named Manny came walking into my office, out of the clear blue sky, and handed me his cell phone. He said "Bob John Buscema wants to talk to you." I was completely dumb-founded! There I was talking to one of my lifelong idols--I'm lucky I could even form words! I was so completely caught off guard that after I finished talking to John, I asked Manny how in the hell he even knew I was a Buscema fan--and apparently during my interview at Acclaim, the team asked me who my artistic influences were and I said John Buscema! I totally forgot about that!
John told me he hated drawing comics, didn't remember creating Ultron and said if he could have figured out a better way to make money, he'd never have drawn comics in the first place. I was shocked! He swore a lot, too! JB was like the kind of blustery old guy you'd meet at a hole-in-the-wall bar and really enjoy talking to! He was really down-to-earth, zero ego, and swore like a sailor!
Unfortunately John was losing his battle with cancer at the time and I think I was talking to him while he was in the hospital. He died shortly thereafter. Nobody, but nobody, drew a more striking Black Panther, Vision or Black Knight. Am I right?
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Post by ultron69 on May 11, 2009 14:08:12 GMT -5
Wow, that's a great story, bobc! That is surprising, and sad, that John hated drawing comics. Did he tell you what he did want to do instead of draw comics?
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Post by bobc on May 11, 2009 14:14:41 GMT -5
No--not that I recall. You have to understand that I was so shocked that I was talking to him that everything went out of my head like air! I know he did work for ad agencies before he did comics, so maybe drawing comics was a more stable source of income. I do want to be clear here though--hearing JB say those things about comics didn't coming across like he was complaining. It was more like he just wasn't that interested in comics even though he drew them. I know the feeling--I do video games for a living and never play them. In fact, I've never even looked at a game I made after it came out. Zero interest. Anyway JB remembered Ultron eventually--but I had to explain who Ultron was.
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Post by sharkar on May 11, 2009 20:28:10 GMT -5
John Buscema!... Nobody, but nobody, drew a more striking Black Panther, Vision or Black Knight. Am I right? Oh, God, yes!!! Just a few highlights: Black Panther: John obviously relished drawing the athletic T'Challa; what with that pared down costume, it must have been like drawing the perfect male physique. JB didn't stint on the face either; look at how handsome T'Challa is in Avengers #77... reminds me of Lloyd Haines from Room 222, though the actor never had the benefit of those trademark Buscema cheekbones as T'Challa did! Vision: Page 1 of Avengers #57, where the Vision's flying--no, floating--amidst the raindrops. Incredible. And I won't mention the oft-cited last panel of #58 ; instead, check out #81, specifically the panels in which Vision has just rescued Wanda from the lake; and then the next page, when the two of them are entering Van Lunt's hacienda--look at their body language. Vizh comes off as so freakin' masculine. No wonder Wanda fell for him. Black Knight: The shot in #54, when Dane's reading the letter from the Masters of Evil, the way he's sitting--very powerful. Apart from fight scenes, JB was at his best drawing men sitting in classical and/or in pseudo-"Thinker"(Rodin) poses--such as the famous shots of Loki and Mephisto in the 1960s Silver Surfer series, or even an insignificant character like one of the Gambonnos in Avengers #60! Incredible artist. |
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Post by sharkar on May 11, 2009 20:50:56 GMT -5
I know he did work for ad agencies before he did comics, so maybe drawing comics was a more stable source of income. Yes, that was a big part of it. He'd done comics in the late 1940s-50s before the Atlas Implosion, but when work dried up, like so many other artists, he had to find work elsewhere (ad agencies, etc.) Later on, when Marvel was making waves, in the mid-60s Stan called him and finally convinced him to give comics a try again. Ultron69: John's distaste for superhero comics is well-documented--check out any interview with him or any article about him. He seemed to be a fine artist/illustrator at heart and looked down on commercial art/cartooning. But as bobc surmised, he had a good gig at Marvel and he was a big fish in a small pond. From all accounts I've read, he was happier when he finally got to do his beloved Conan (circa 1973), but in order to accommodate his wishes Marvel had to reduce his workload on other Marvel books. So starting in 1973, he began a practice of doing only layouts and/or breakdowns (rough pencils) for other Marvel books (like the FF) which other artists would then finish (usually by the inker). As much as I love Joe Sinnott and Tom Palmer (two of his more famous embellishers), neither of them is the artist Buscema is. To me, his post-1970s work is a far cry from his late 1960s work (when he was doing full pencils). And Bobc: great story! |
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Post by humanbelly on May 11, 2009 21:15:39 GMT -5
Ohhhhh, I hate to do this--- I'm going to jump back to the poll, 'cause it gives me an opportunity to voice a problem I have with the use of Kang in general. Great discussion about John B, though.
Okay, I voted for Ultron. But primarily because he does seem to fit what my idea of an individual "nemesis" should be. He's there to do in the Avengers. . . . and subsequently eliminate the rest of humanity as a bonus. (That. . . . may be an oversimplification.).
Now, although I've enjoyed Kang immensely over the years, his relationship with the Avengers has become FAAAAAAR to complicated. There have been at least two occassions (and I think there are more) where the Avengers have been reluctantly allied with him to serve the greater good (like, a planet, the omniverse, etc.). And his impossibly complex existence and vendetta has gone far, far, far, FAR beyond the immediate goal of defeating those darned, pesky Avengers, who are perpetually protected by that time-storm (or whatever) in the 20th & 21st centuries of. . . uh. . . this particular "prime" reality.
Do people remember that mid-to-late in the run of vol 3, he defeated the entire earth, and put lots of folks in prison camps? That, according to the text, he brutally ruled the earth for several months? (Actually, is this the arc that's referred to as "The Kang Dynasty"?) I mean-- that simply had to have been a HUGE event in the reality of the Marvel universe-- and it seems like it never had any noticeable effect. Kang murdered thousands of human beings in his invasion. Many as "examples" to disruptive prisoners. In my mind, this takes him out of the realm of being a nemesis, and puts him in the rarified company of a Hitler or a Stalin or a Ghengis Khan. It certainly shined a light on how ugly that "Conquerer" title really is when one examines it closely. Kang was often (and generally) portrayed with an innate sense of nobility and purpose. . . . "conquerer of a thousand, thousand worlds" being tossed about in a way that the old British Empire would have been proud of. But noble he ain't. Just smart, tough, ruthless, certainly brave, and often pragmatic. But also horrible, coldly cruel and completely self-serving. I don't recall that we've seen Kang again since that event--- but it would be awfully hard swallowing any storyline that runs along an "I'll get those Avengers if it's the last thing I do!" vein again with him. At this point, he's an interplanetary war criminal. There's almost no plot device that's appropriate for him other than bringing him to long-overdue justice.
Wow-- can't believe I went off like that. I had no idea I was so emotionally involved with this topic. . . . . !
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Post by sharkar on May 11, 2009 22:52:03 GMT -5
Do people remember that mid-to-late in the run of vol 3, he defeated the entire earth, and put lots of folks in prison camps? That, according to the text, he brutally ruled the earth for several months? (Actually, is this the arc that's referred to as "The Kang Dynasty"?) I mean-- that simply had to have been a HUGE event in the reality of the Marvel universe-- and it seems like it never had any noticeable effect. Kang murdered thousands of human beings in his invasion. Many as "examples" to disruptive prisoners. In my mind, this takes him out of the realm of being a nemesis, and puts him in the rarified company of a Hitler or a Stalin or a Ghengis Khan... You make many excellent--and sobering--points, hb. I am just now reading this storyline (it's included in the hardcover collection Avengers Assemble #5, which I picked up a few weeks ago). From what I've read so far, it does catapult Kang into a whole different level. |
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Post by bobc on May 12, 2009 10:05:11 GMT -5
Sharkar--if any single comic artist is responsible for my 35 year love affair with comics and the Avengers in particular, it is John Buscema! In the 3rd grade I had a friend named Francis Rhineheart and he had an older brother who was into comics. He had tons of old 60's issues of the Avengers, so naturally Francis and I always sneaked into his room to read them! I distinctly recall that one late 60's Avengers issue where the Vision just calmly walks down through a sidewalk, intangible, and I thought that was so incredibly cool! I couldn't wait to find out more about him! Then--I think in the same issue--you had Yellowjacket clinging to a brick wall at insect size, and I wanted to know more about him too! Then when the Black Panther smashed through a car windshield, capturing two thugs--it was all over.
John Buscema was so good at capturing the Vision's spooky, detached air back in the 60's and 70's. And the Panther always looked catlike and cool. And nobody drew women as beautifully as JB!
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Post by Tana Nile on May 12, 2009 10:22:19 GMT -5
If you folks haven't already, you should check out Alter Ego #13 from March 2002. Roy Thomas tries to interview John Buscema about the Avengers stories they collaborated on, but Big John has no recollection of anything! Every time Roy asks a question, whether it is about the design of a costume or evolution of a character, John has a cranky "I don't recall" answer. It's kind of funny, you can sort of feel Roy's frustration as it goes along.
It's also clear from the interview that John didn't enjoy doing comics and had no interest in them, aside from Conan. He says the only comics of his he saved were Conan ones. He said one of the reasons he didn't save anything is that "other people were inking my stuff, and that is not my work. I can't look at it. The ones I inked, yes, I keep. Anything with super-heroes, I'm not interested. Only the Conans."
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Post by bobc on May 12, 2009 10:47:16 GMT -5
BLASPHEMY!! I loved what Tom Palmer did with JB's work!!
Man JB certainly was a character! What a diva!
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Post by sharkar on May 12, 2009 11:02:32 GMT -5
Bob and Tana (and anyone else),
I'm going to continue our John B discussion over in the Silver Age Artists thread. See you there!
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Post by sharkar on May 12, 2009 11:51:04 GMT -5
You know, Sal Buscema lives- or used to live- in my area, and by all accounts of folks I know that have bumped into him (he was active in local community theater), he is just about the nicest guy you could ever hope to be around, and has always embraced the work he does. Yes, John always said that Sal should have been an actor (and from photos I've seen, Sal was not not bad looking!). John brought Sal into Marvel and within a few years, Sal had developed into Marvel's workhorse. I believe there's going to be a book about his work published in the fall--long overdue! Wow, we're wildly off-topic-thread. Your earlier post shamed me into shifting this discussion over to the venerable "Silver Age Artists" thread in the general section. I hope you, bobc, and anyone else who is interested in Big John (isn't that everyone?) and art in general will join us there. |
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Post by sharkar on May 12, 2009 11:52:28 GMT -5
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Who is the Avengers' greatest foe? Who is the enemy who, every time they come up, you think Excellent, the REAL grudge match. For me, the Avengers are interesting is that they are the only major franchise for whom it's really a dispute. Fantastic Four will ALWAYS have Doom as the nemesis, SPidey will always have the Goblin pull ahead (though Venom and Doc Ock may be close behind), Daredevil has the Kingpin with Bullseye a second, and the X-Men have Magneto, with Apocalypse a distant second.
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