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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 9, 2007 11:56:07 GMT -5
I've found most of the issues since I entered the 200's pretty blah. Then I got to this one.
Fight fans this one is a must.
Avengers vs. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants
Mystique Rogue Destiny Blob Pyro Avalanche
The fights between the Avengers and the Brotherhood are fast and furious. I've always liked Rogue and getting to see her take Thor down so quickly was fun. Also the fights in the prison were classic back and forth battling.
You also get to see the results of what happened with Carol Danvers after she went off with her son/lover. That was a very weird series in the title and I had my questions about how it turned out. This answered those questions, in a very sad way for Carol.
I'd never read any books where Rogue was starting out as a bad guy. I knew they existed, just hadn't read them. So this was a real treat.
The only real downside for me was the artwork. The ladies eyes were drawsn almost Magna large. and the coloring left much to be desired. It was bad enough for me to cost this one an entire Loony
So overall this gets 8 1/2 Loonies out of 10
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 10, 2007 9:16:56 GMT -5
I've always, always hated this book. I know it's got gorgeous Golden art, but Claremont totally makes the Avengers look like dopes. First the whole Carol thing...we all know that the ending to 200 was changed because the original ending was too close to a What If? right? and it was changed on the fly essentially so it was never intended for the Avengers to sound like complete patsies for Marcus Immortus. Second Carol was a grown woman and said she wanted to go with him. How do you tell her no? That one line about a subtle boost from his machines is one throwaway line and for the Avengers to have been lambasted over that is silly, so Claremont's whole ripping into the Avengers for letting Carol go is just some omniscient narrator taking poorly written characters to task. Next, for a team that has fought Absorbing Man, boy does Rogue beat them pretty easily. She takes out Thor and Cap without breaking a sweat. Not surprisingly she's a woman and character that Claremont wanted to hype so she's practically unstoppable this issue. If not for the intvention of Spider Woman, the A Team would've pretty much been beaten handily. A team that had hawkeye, Vision, Beast, Witch and Wonder Man. But they needed Spider Woman. In fact, the whole thing reads much more like a Spider Woman story and I believe Claremont was handling that title as well. Oh I could go on for hours, but I really hate this book and only have it because of the art...
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Post by von Bek on Apr 10, 2007 9:45:24 GMT -5
I've always, always hated this book. I know it's got gorgeous Golden art, but Claremont totally makes the Avengers look like dopes. First the whole Carol thing...we all know that the ending to 200 was changed because the original ending was too close to a What If? right? and it was changed on the fly essentially so it was never intended for the Avengers to sound like complete patsies for Marcus Immortus. Second Carol was a grown woman and said she wanted to go with him. How do you tell her no? That one line about a subtle boost from his machines is one throwaway line and for the Avengers to have been lambasted over that is silly, so Claremont's whole ripping into the Avengers for letting Carol go is just some omniscient narrator taking poorly written characters to task. Next, for a team that has fought Absorbing Man, boy does Rogue beat them pretty easily. She takes out Thor and Cap without breaking a sweat. Not surprisingly she's a woman and character that Claremont wanted to hype so she's practically unstoppable this issue. If not for the intvention of Spider Woman, the A Team would've pretty much been beaten handily. A team that had hawkeye, Vision, Beast, Witch and Wonder Man. But they needed Spider Woman. In fact, the whole thing reads much more like a Spider Woman story and I believe Claremont was handling that title as well. Oh I could go on for hours, but I really hate this book and only have it because of the art... Couldn´t agree more. Those are exactly my toughts about the annual too, and that whole "Carol has been raped" crap just makes me sick. Claremont has always been jealous of certain characters he wrote back in the 70´s (remember him retconning the great Barry Smith 'Weapon X' arc as false memory implants? : and here, because he disagrees with Carol´s fate he just demolishes what Shooter and Michelline did in issue 200. And all this to turn Carol into Binary (ugh!) in the pages of... X-Men. And yes, Spiderwoman is another female character he wrote, so no surprise she´s the star here...
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Apr 10, 2007 10:47:01 GMT -5
Ok, ok, I hear the critiicism, but if you don't care about the off-page baggage the characters and creators carry, the book is really good in its own right. The action is well choreographed and exciting. The introduction of Rogue is exciting -- kind of a neat power and a neat character. The return of Carol Danvers to this plane of existence is an exciting development.
And I'm glad they retconned the Marcus thing. The ending to issue 200 was totally creepy and a bum way to take Ms. Marvel off the team. It was good to have her back.
Binary though, never interested me a bit.
I consider this issue a true classic in every way. Claremont on the Avengers should be tried again soon. I also find it interesting that the art was Nutcase's main complaint, but it was the one redeeming factor in the view of imperiusrex.
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 10, 2007 11:35:10 GMT -5
Ok, ok, I hear the critiicism, but if you don't care about the off-page baggage the characters and creators carry, the book is really good in its own right. The action is well choreographed and exciting. The introduction of Rogue is exciting -- kind of a neat power and a neat character. The return of Carol Danvers to this plane of existence is an exciting development. And I'm glad they retconned the Marcus thing. The ending to issue 200 was totally creepy and a bum way to take Ms. Marvel off the team. It was good to have her back. Binary though, never interested me a bit. I consider this issue a true classic in every way. Claremont on the Avengers should be tried again soon. I also find it interesting that the art was Nutcase's main complaint, but it was the one redeeming factor in the view of imperiusrex. but if you know why 200 ended the way it did, you realize it wasn't the way the story should've or would've gone if not for one really bad editorial decision forced on the creators. like when a director is forced to change a movie by the studio, do you take the director and the story he was forced to make to task when you make the sequel? yet it seems to me that Claremont did indeed do that. and he certainly knew that marvel forced that decision on michelinie and perez. I dunno I just think he could've found another way instead of picking apart 200 and making the story look so bad. in the years hence, I think 200 has only become worse in fan's eyes and CC had a chance to make it better instead of worse. I'd still take him over bendis though. however i would expect an all woman avengers team within six months of his debut...
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Post by von Bek on Apr 10, 2007 12:42:29 GMT -5
Ok, ok, I hear the critiicism, but if you don't care about the off-page baggage the characters and creators carry, the book is really good in its own right. Gotta have to disagree with you here on two levels. First, even the story itself wasn´t that good to begin with, second it´s really hard to separate the story from Claremonts intentions with the story. The action is well choreographed and exciting. The introduction of Rogue is exciting -- kind of a neat power and a neat character. The return of Carol Danvers to this plane of existence is an exciting development. Making the Avengers be beaten up by X-villains in their own annual, and by a - then - Z-grade character like Rogue doesn´t make the book exciting, at least for me. And the return of Carol as some angry and bitter victim didn´t really help her development as a character. The Binary thing and later becomming a supporting cast character for the Starjammers (!!!) only worsened that. God bless Busiek for bringing her back in her full glory (and with the Avengers again!). And I'm glad they retconned the Marcus thing. The ending to issue 200 was totally creepy and a bum way to take Ms. Marvel off the team. It was good to have her back. Binary though, never interested me a bit. I consider this issue a true classic in every way. Claremont on the Avengers should be tried again soon. Claremont on the Avengers?!! Please don´t... have you read any of the stuff he´s putting out now at Marvel (like Exiles, for example)? I also find it interesting that the art was Nutcase's main complaint, but it was the one redeeming factor in the view of imperiusrex. Yeah, I also found that interesting. Michael Golden remain one of my favourites, though.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 10, 2007 12:45:47 GMT -5
but if you know why 200 ended the way it did, you realize it wasn't the way the story should've or would've gone if not for one really bad editorial decision forced on the creators. If I´m not mistaken the Supreme Intelligence should have been the antagonist in that story (#200). Anybody know more details about that?
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 10, 2007 15:23:30 GMT -5
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 10, 2007 16:17:28 GMT -5
If someone says they like or dislike something how can you tell them they're wrong? Some people don't like it. If I tell them they're wrong I'm telling them they don't know what they like. If folks don't like something, it's ok. I don't like broccoli. If you do, that doesn't make me wrong. It just makes us different. That being said. You guys are wrong. You really enjoyed this book. jk
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 10, 2007 16:58:50 GMT -5
Avengers 200 was the comic that got me to stop buying Avengers for at least a year.
It was disgusting, humiliating, and made the Avengers look like a bunch of idiots. Regardless of the editorial decisions made, there should have been some way to rewrite this story so that: A) Carol is not running off with her abuser, and B) the other Avengers are not such clueless jerks.
Ms. Marvel is raped. There's no way around it. She's kidnapped and brainwashed, and forced to become pregnant. I can't even begin to explain just how horrifying and repugnant this whole story was.
Claremont's Annual 10 has its faults, but when I read that as a young woman, it felt like there was at least someone at Marvel who recognized the huge miscarriage of justice that occured in #200.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 10, 2007 18:28:49 GMT -5
I agree with your take on 200 Tana
I was surprised that the Avengers unquestioningly let her go. The insanity of the entire situation, you think they'd look into it closer.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Apr 10, 2007 21:15:06 GMT -5
No, Bek, I haven't read any of Clarement's recent stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that his recent stuff is not as good as his best work -- such as AVENGERS ANNUAL NUMBER 10.
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 11, 2007 0:36:18 GMT -5
Avengers 200 was the comic that got me to stop buying Avengers for at least a year. It was disgusting, humiliating, and made the Avengers look like a bunch of idiots. Regardless of the editorial decisions made, there should have been some way to rewrite this story so that: A) Carol is not running off with her abuser, and B) the other Avengers are not such clueless jerks. Ms. Marvel is raped. There's no way around it. She's kidnapped and brainwashed, and forced to become pregnant. I can't even begin to explain just how horrifying and repugnant this whole story was. Claremont's Annual 10 has its faults, but when I read that as a young woman, it felt like there was at least someone at Marvel who recognized the huge miscarriage of justice that occured in #200. I agree that it's a terrible comic, but given that Michelinie and Perez had to write a story that both would fit into the existing story structure and please Shooter who was supposedly adding his own bits here and there, it's not like the intent of the story was to harm the character. And there were other ways to fix the story. personally I've always thought that having Carol leave so she could take her own revenge on Marcus and not have to worry about the Avengers no killing code would have made a great story. Can you imagine a terrified marcus Immortus running through time trying to escape a murderous Ms. Marvel. Oh and remember when morty (sorry couldn't resist calling him that) said he influenced her with a subtle boost from his machines, well who's to say carol was the only one who got that zap? he could've done that to the entire team, I mean it's not like they would've been any less susceptible. In fact in retrospect the whole story seems out of whack. why not just mentally influence all the Avengers? I think a really good writer could actually dot all these "i"'s and cross all these "t"'s and get a good story out of what was marcus' real intent with this gambit...
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Post by von Bek on Apr 11, 2007 9:21:07 GMT -5
If someone says they like or dislike something how can you tell them they're wrong? I´m not telling anyone they´re "wrong", I´m just posting the reasons why I disagree that the annual was good. And I expect who disagree with me to give the opposite POV. That´s what makes these boards interesting, don´t you agree? If folks don't like something, it's ok. I don't like broccoli. If you do, that doesn't make me wrong. It just makes us different. That being said. You guys are wrong. You really enjoyed this book. jk It´s more in the lines of you saying why you don´t like brocoli, and I´m saying why you should eat it. And yes, reading Avengers Annual 10 is like eating brocoli...
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Post by von Bek on Apr 11, 2007 9:33:50 GMT -5
Avengers 200 was the comic that got me to stop buying Avengers for at least a year. It was disgusting, humiliating, and made the Avengers look like a bunch of idiots. Regardless of the editorial decisions made, there should have been some way to rewrite this story so that: A) Carol is not running off with her abuser, and B) the other Avengers are not such clueless jerks. Sorry, but how did that story makes the Avengers clueless jerks? Carol said she wanted to go to Limbo with Marcus. Why wouldn´t they believe her? Immortus had been an Avengers foe, friend and/or ally in the past, why couldn´t Carol really be in love with Immortus son? If let´s say... Hawkeye left the Avengers with a princess from another dimension to a paralell world, would your reaction be the same? Ms. Marvel is raped. There's no way around it. She's kidnapped and brainwashed, and forced to become pregnant. I can't even begin to explain just how horrifying and repugnant this whole story was. Sorry but why? Even brainwashed she could have liked Marcus and wanted to go to bed with him. In the Kang Wars both felt a strong atraction to each other, when they met. Claremont's Annual 10 has its faults, but when I read that as a young woman, it felt like there was at least someone at Marvel who recognized the huge miscarriage of justice that occured in #200. According to your POV (different from mine) wouldn´t it have been better if Carol could have come back to our world without being turned into some bitter victim (and yes, it could have been easily done that way)?
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Post by von Bek on Apr 11, 2007 9:40:03 GMT -5
personally I've always thought that having Carol leave so she could take her own revenge on Marcus and not have to worry about the Avengers no killing code would have made a great story. Can you imagine a terrified marcus Immortus running through time trying to escape a murderous Ms. Marvel. I´m gonna disagree with you here, Imperiusrex. Turning Carol into a female Punisher would be just as bad as what Claremont did.
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 11, 2007 9:55:30 GMT -5
Avengers 200 was the comic that got me to stop buying Avengers for at least a year. It was disgusting, humiliating, and made the Avengers look like a bunch of idiots. Regardless of the editorial decisions made, there should have been some way to rewrite this story so that: A) Carol is not running off with her abuser, and B) the other Avengers are not such clueless jerks. Sorry, but how did that story makes the Avengers clueless jerks? Carol said she wanted to go to Limbo with Marcus. Why wouldn´t they believe her? Immortus had been an Avengers foe, friend and/or ally in the past, why couldn´t Carol really be in love with Immortus son? If let´s say... Hawkeye left the Avengers with a princess from another dimension to a paralell world, would your reaction be the same? Sorry but why? Even brainwashed she could have liked Marcus and wanted to go to bed with him. In the Kang Wars both felt a strong atraction to each other, when they met. Claremont's Annual 10 has its faults, but when I read that as a young woman, it felt like there was at least someone at Marvel who recognized the huge miscarriage of justice that occured in #200. According to your POV (different from mine) wouldn´t it have been better if Carol could have come back to our world without being turned into some bitter victim (and yes, it could have been easily done that way)? 1. The Avengers look like clueless jerks because they have heard Marcus admit he used a device to tamper with Carol's mind. Once that is said, no matter what else happened, he has already violated her on some level and can't be trusted. If I were them I would question whether he wasn't still affecting her mind. 2. 'Even brainwashed she could have liked Marcus and wanted to go to bed with him. ' But that's the point. She was brainwashed, so her free will was removed from the equation! That's like saying, "well my date might have wanted to have sex with me even if I hadn't slipped her those rufi's." It doesn't matter what her feelings might be, if her ability to choose that course of action is gone, it is essentially a rape. 3. I think Claremont's characterization of Carol was pretty accurate for what she had gone through. Certainly the incident would have made her bitter towards the people she considered her friends, who let her down at a critical moment in her life. She may be a powerful superhero, but she's been subject to a very humiliating experience that made her feel helpless. That's not easy to recover from.
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Post by redstatecap on Apr 11, 2007 10:12:59 GMT -5
You know, I thought about trying to defend this story, together with Avengers #200, but I really can't. Both of these stories I remember from my youth when I was frankly too young to have standards -- kind of like today's young people who like Bendis' New Avengers. I remember loving Annual #10, and I guess some things about it I still do. The art for one. But I now agree with people's arguments that the story is hideous. What Claremont should have done is right then and there taken the opportunity with Annual #10 to fix #200. Instead he made #200 worse, and as people point out he used the annual to lambaste the Avengers as characters for #200 when, obviously, they didn't have much choice in the matter. I appreciate the position Micheline and Perez were put in -- but it's still hard for me to understand how such a repugnant story cannot be immediately recognized as such. Go figure. I'd say that -- even after 25 years and a ton of continuity built on these events -- if Marvel pulled some kind of mega-retcon right now, this should be at the top of the list to erase.
RSC
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Post by von Bek on Apr 11, 2007 10:18:59 GMT -5
1. The Avengers look like clueless jerks because they have heard Marcus admit he used a device to tamper with Carol's mind. Once that is said, no matter what else happened, he has already violated her on some level and can't be trusted. If I were them I would question whether he wasn't still affecting her mind. They also heard Carol saying she wanted to go with Marcus. And Marcus original plan was to stay on earth, not leave to Limbo. 2. 'Even brainwashed she could have liked Marcus and wanted to go to bed with him. ' But that's the point. She was brainwashed, so her free will was removed from the equation! That's like saying, "well my date might have wanted to have sex with me even if I hadn't slipped her those rufi's." It doesn't matter what her feelings might be, if her ability to choose that course of action is gone, it is essentially a rape. The abilty to choose her course of action wasn´t gone, he didn´t turn her into a zombie. I wanted to say that the idea was that Carol was in love with him, not that she might have been in love with him...
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 11, 2007 11:18:50 GMT -5
personally I've always thought that having Carol leave so she could take her own revenge on Marcus and not have to worry about the Avengers no killing code would have made a great story. Can you imagine a terrified marcus Immortus running through time trying to escape a murderous Ms. Marvel. I´m gonna disagree with you here, Imperiusrex. Turning Carol into a female Punisher would be just as bad as what Claremont did. well that's only if you consider wanting to kill one person who violated you the same as shooting thousands of criminals as surrogates for those who took your family. But I'm not saying she would kill him, merely it would've been interesting to see her turn the tables and put fear in his heart. I think that would've given the character a measure of power back as opposed to the Claremont story which just made her more of a victim...
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Apr 11, 2007 11:30:05 GMT -5
Let's compare the story where Thor was mind controlled to be Moondragon's consort. In that case, as I recall, the Avengers were very quick to confront her to try to free Thor's will. In that case, the mind control is treated as the attack that it is, no matter how much Thor might have thought he was having a good time.
True, I don't remember this quite as clearly as I wish I did, but isn't that correct?
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 11, 2007 11:53:46 GMT -5
1. The Avengers look like clueless jerks because they have heard Marcus admit he used a device to tamper with Carol's mind. Once that is said, no matter what else happened, he has already violated her on some level and can't be trusted. If I were them I would question whether he wasn't still affecting her mind. They also heard Carol saying she wanted to go with Marcus. And Marcus original plan was to stay on earth, not leave to Limbo. 2. 'Even brainwashed she could have liked Marcus and wanted to go to bed with him. ' But that's the point. She was brainwashed, so her free will was removed from the equation! That's like saying, "well my date might have wanted to have sex with me even if I hadn't slipped her those rufi's." It doesn't matter what her feelings might be, if her ability to choose that course of action is gone, it is essentially a rape. The abilty to choose her course of action wasn´t gone, he didn´t turn her into a zombie. I wanted to say that the idea was that Carol was in love with him, not that she might have been in love with him... As much as I think we're probably coming from completely different mindsets on this situation, let me offer one more example: A woman is kidnapped from her home by a man who takes her away and keeps her as his sex slave. After nearly a year, the authorities locate the man and arrest him, and free the woman. The woman however insists she loves her captor and doesn't want him in jail. Don't you think that regardless of what she says, a crime has been committed? Don't we have to question whether the woman is truly in her 'right mind' - ie, is she suffering from some sort of Stockholm Syndrome, where she has come to sympathize with and identify with her captor? If you were her father/brother/ friend, wouldn't you want her to take some time and maybe get some counseling, and see if the feelings she has for this man are real or a development of her trying to survive her ordeal?
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 11, 2007 12:03:10 GMT -5
Let's compare the story where Thor was mind controlled to be Moondragon's consort. In that case, as I recall, the Avengers were very quick to confront her to try to free Thor's will. In that case, the mind control is treated as the attack that it is, no matter how much Thor might have thought he was having a good time. True, I don't remember this quite as clearly as I wish I did, but isn't that correct? Good point, BY. As I recall, she wound up being taken to Asgard to be judged by Odin no less! Although the situations are different (Thor was actively attacking his fellow Avengers), in both cases, the heroes' were not acting from free will. At least in Thor's case, the Avengers recognized this.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 11, 2007 12:29:38 GMT -5
well that's only if you consider wanting to kill one person who violated you the same as shooting thousands of criminals as surrogates for those who took your family. Maybe after the first kill she would go after the Avengers (you know, the ones who "let it happen") and after that who knows, maybe a one shot called 'Miss Marvel kills the Marvel Universe' written by Garth Ennis... But I'm not saying she would kill him, merely it would've been interesting to see her turn the tables and put fear in his heart. I think that would've given the character a measure of power back as opposed to the Claremont story which just made her more of a victim... Here we agree. One of the things that irritates me most in that Claremont story was turning her into a defenceless victim...
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Post by von Bek on Apr 11, 2007 13:05:15 GMT -5
As much as I think we're probably coming from completely different mindsets on this situation, let me offer one more example: A woman is kidnapped from her home by a man who takes her away and keeps her as his sex slave. After nearly a year, the authorities locate the man and arrest him, and free the woman. The woman however insists she loves her captor and doesn't want him in jail. Don't you think that regardless of what she says, a crime has been committed? Don't we have to question whether the woman is truly in her 'right mind' - ie, is she suffering from some sort of Stockholm Syndrome, where she has come to sympathize with and identify with her captor? If you were her father/brother/ friend, wouldn't you want her to take some time and maybe get some counseling, and see if the feelings she has for this man are real or a development of her trying to survive her ordeal? I see where you´re coming from, but your example of a 'real world situation' seems a little bit forced. Marcus didn´t turn her into his sexual slave, and he didn´t force her against her will to do anything. You could say he used his (or Immortus) machines to seduce her, but that´s not the same thing that forcing someone (I think you´re even implying physically) to do all sorts of sexual favours.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 11, 2007 14:37:31 GMT -5
Let's compare the story where Thor was mind controlled to be Moondragon's consort. In that case, as I recall, the Avengers were very quick to confront her to try to free Thor's will. In that case, the mind control is treated as the attack that it is, no matter how much Thor might have thought he was having a good time. True, I don't remember this quite as clearly as I wish I did, but isn't that correct? Good point, BY. As I recall, she wound up being taken to Asgard to be judged by Odin no less! Although the situations are different (Thor was actively attacking his fellow Avengers), in both cases, the heroes' were not acting from free will. At least in Thor's case, the Avengers recognized this. you are both 100% correct. I think, in some sense tho' that annual 10 was a was an attempt to fix 200. For that time tho' this was a pretty heavy topic to try to cover. Today, people would hardly bat an eye.
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 11, 2007 15:05:35 GMT -5
you know what I love most about this conversation? people from marvel and other bendis supporters like tout how older fans never complain about the stuff from the past. yet here we are absolutely ripping into a couple of books from the "good old days." so maybe the complaints about the current direction aren't just nostalgia run rampant, eh?
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 11, 2007 15:07:48 GMT -5
yeah, I think you are right. Also I'm surprised this issue gets so much attention.
There definately doesn't seem to be any fence sitting on this issue. It's either they liked it or hated it.
I love Rogue, so it could've been terrible (I still dont think it was) but I would've liked it anyway.
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Post by redstatecap on Apr 11, 2007 15:53:28 GMT -5
Some parts of the issue can be forgiven I think. Claremont wanted to push Rogue. OK, that's hardly unusual, and one could say it was justified because the character became a major success, even coming at the expense of the Avengers in their annual. Making the Avengers out to be rubes and responsible for editorial decisions regarding Carol is not doing his job as the writer of the Avengers. It would be like, oh, Busiek bopping over for one X-men annual and dropping a bomb, then saying: "Seeya suckers! Deal with it!" Some would argue that Claremont was just following the logical progression of #200. And he was, strictly speaking. The counter-argument is that he also could have instead come up with a fix at that point in time that did right by both the Avengers and Carol, and this would all be no more than a trivia question for Avengers fans.
RSC
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Post by Tana Nile on Apr 11, 2007 16:17:02 GMT -5
As much as I think we're probably coming from completely different mindsets on this situation, let me offer one more example: A woman is kidnapped from her home by a man who takes her away and keeps her as his sex slave. After nearly a year, the authorities locate the man and arrest him, and free the woman. The woman however insists she loves her captor and doesn't want him in jail. Don't you think that regardless of what she says, a crime has been committed? Don't we have to question whether the woman is truly in her 'right mind' - ie, is she suffering from some sort of Stockholm Syndrome, where she has come to sympathize with and identify with her captor? If you were her father/brother/ friend, wouldn't you want her to take some time and maybe get some counseling, and see if the feelings she has for this man are real or a development of her trying to survive her ordeal? I see where you´re coming from, but your example of a 'real world situation' seems a little bit forced. Marcus didn´t turn her into his sexual slave, and he didn´t force her against her will to do anything. You could say he used his (or Immortus) machines to seduce her, but that´s not the same thing that forcing someone (I think you´re even implying physically) to do all sorts of sexual favours. I know this is a lost cause, as we don't even have any common ground here to work with, but let me try. It seems to me that you are implying that since Carol might have been attracted to Marcus before he used his machines on her (and again, to me this implies a violation) that she essentially gave her consent to have sex with him. Let's go back to the date rape example I used earlier. Say a guy and a girl go out on a date. They are having a good time, hanging out and talking. Things appear to be going well. The girl leaves to use the bathroom. When she is gone, the guy puts a drug in her drink. Later, when she is incapacitated, he has sex with her. Is it rape? Most courts would say so. Does it matter if prior to ingesting the drug, the girl wanted to have sex with the guy? I would contend no, it doesn't matter, because once he has put the drug in her drink and she drinks it, he's denied her the ability to make that decision herself. Look, when I read Avengers 200, it's clear to me that Carol was not in her right mind. Marcus admits that he used an artificial method to affect Carol's attitude and/or behavior to get what he wanted. Whether she was attracted to him or not, whether she would have slept with him without the machine's influence, is irrelevant because there's still been a violation. The Avengers should have, at the very least, questioned the situation. But it really all boils down to some bad decisions made on the part of the editor and writer, and we're stuck with it.
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