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Post by dlw66 on Jan 12, 2007 13:13:47 GMT -5
We've looked at high points, low points, favorite teams, etc. How about this -- what run of issues do you consider your favorite and/or the best span ever in Avengers history? You might give us a "why", too (sorry, that's the teacher in me...)!
I would say from around #128 (start of Celestial Madonna story) to around #190 -- of course, give or take an issue here or there.
Great story "arcs", characterization, the return of Wonder Man and the Whizzer, the Beast joined, Perez art comes to the Avengers, Kang, the Squadron Sinister, Thor whups Orka, Bride of Ultron, Korvac Saga... wow.
I should also file this in some way under the thread "Comics that made you go "Whoa!!".
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Jan 12, 2007 13:32:29 GMT -5
Issue #48 toabout #104 or #105.
I would have to name almost every issue to name all the really great things that happened in this run, but here's a few:
Black Panther joins. The Vision. "Death Be Not Proud" issue #56 that sets up the classic Avenger's Annual that pits the current Avengers (of that time) against the Originals. Jan and Hank's wedding. Hank becoming Yellowjacket, Clint becomes Goliath. The Ultron story that introduces Adamantium. The first Kang/ Grandmaster story that introduces the Squadron Sinister and the Invaders. The Lady Liberators' The Lethal Legion. The Kree Skrull war. Captain Marvel The Zodiac and the list goes on.
Top this with Buscema artwork. This series is the building blocks for the Avengers and other team stories in the future. I've always thought the Claremont/Cockrum/Bryne X-Men were a tribute to Thomas' run on the Avengers.
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Post by redstatecap on Jan 13, 2007 0:24:09 GMT -5
I believe the era of around 150-200 was the best long run in Avengers history. Lots of great, epic stories, Perez art, great dynamic on the team. Yeah, overall that was definitely my favorite run.
RSC
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Post by Van Plexico on Jan 13, 2007 9:52:54 GMT -5
I agree with RedState. From my own personal experience as a kid, I would specifically say 158-202. From Vision vs Wonder-Man to the "Evil Undying" Ultron story by Shooter and Michelinie.
That would encompass Graviton, Ultron, Nefaria, Korvac, Ultron again, Taskmaster, and Ultron again, among others. Plus it includes the funny stuff with Simon and Beast. (And the story I love where Iron Man singlehandedly defeats all the Champions. Hahaha.) ;D
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ozbot
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 103
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Post by ozbot on Jan 13, 2007 12:45:30 GMT -5
Stern, stern, stern! Then again, I think that it was also because I was a kid. Is there anyone out there whose absolute favorite WASN'T influenced by the first titles he/she picked up as a kid? My guess is no.
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Post by thew40 on Jan 14, 2007 1:18:41 GMT -5
I unfortunately haven't read much of the classic Avengers, outside of "Kree/Skrull War," "Celestial Madonna," "Bloodties," and the late 50s and 60s -- as well as some random issues here and there. However, I have been reading since "Onslaught" in 1996. That being said, I'd have to say (for me), it's the Busiek/Perez run. I like the Busiek run overall, but there was so much energy between issues # 1 - 25, that I felt like I was reading an epic each month.
~W~
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Jan 14, 2007 3:29:59 GMT -5
Stern, stern, stern! Then again, I think that it was also because I was a kid. Is there anyone out there whose absolute favorite WASN'T influenced by the first titles he/she picked up as a kid? My guess is no. Not for me either. I got on board with his writing, and they are the ones I keep going back to. Under Siege onwards. Although - and this is probably a guilty pleasure - I liked the run leading up to #300. An Avengers Disassembled storyline that didn't suck - Jarvis vs a Transformer!!!
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 14, 2007 20:10:24 GMT -5
Late '70's without a doubt. I know Perez and Byrne were there, not a clue who was writing. What can I say I was a kid at the time. Who cares who's playing base gotta love the lead singer.
Nefaria Ultron Korvak Red Ronin Guardians of the Galaxy Elements of Doom Gyrich
not to mention some Avengers Specials with
Thanos and Attuma - loved the scene where Iron Man leaps into battle and Tyrak crushes his chestplate and Tony falls to the ground helpless. Didn't he say some like " My chestplate... you dirty...." thump.
Not to mention the merriment of Simon and Hank. "It's Mr. Muscles YAAAAY"
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Post by Van Plexico on Jan 14, 2007 21:02:54 GMT -5
That was Shooter and Michelinie. My favorite era-- and, indeed, the one I started with.
Someone said they'd read from 200-up. Go back and read 158-200 plus the associated Annuals (7-10).
Annual 7 is the Thanos epic; Annual 8 is Arsenal; Annual 9 is Doctor Spectrum (I may have those two backwards); and Annual 10 is the Avengers vs the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, with Rogue and Ms Marvel's first encounter. And glorious Michael Golden art.
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 14, 2007 22:59:25 GMT -5
Avengers vs the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, with Rogue and Ms Marvel's first encounter. And glorious Michael Golden art. Ah yes, I remember that one quite well. That's where I got the idea Wonder Man and Rogue would make a viable couple. She tried to absorb his powers and couldn't "because he wasn't human". If you couldn't touch anyone at all without draining their mental and physical energy to the point of killing them, I would think you would seek out someone you could touch. It doesn't even matter if you like them or not, human beings have an inborn need to be social creatures. Yeah, that was me who said issues 200 - 385. My collection starts around the one eighty's but my one key doesn't work. I can't exclaim anything either. Curses.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 15, 2007 6:42:27 GMT -5
my one key doesn't work. I can't exclaim anything either. Curses. Until you get the keyboard fixed or replaced, can you not copy and paste the 1 and the ! ?
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 15, 2007 14:18:42 GMT -5
I would agree that our sentiments lie primarily with the books we began with, or at least that we consider important in our formative years. While I would state that the Avengers run I cited took me from early elementary school to the brink of high school, I would add that the same run of time for Amazing Spider-Man, while special, is not what I would consider to be "the best". As I discovered the Romita run through Marvel Tales (scattered here and there), and to an even greater extent later once I had some money and could afford back issues (and down to the present day with the Masterworks and Essentials collections), I would say that Spidey's zenith was from #39-#122. Those issues would also include art by John Buscema, Jim Mooney, and Gil Kane. Aside from the Lee/Kirby FF's (circa #43-100), that Spidey run may be the best comics run of all time...
Does anyone else notice that my end for the Spidey run (the death of Gwen Stacy/Green Goblin) and the FF run (Kirby would stay only a couple of more issues and then depart for DC) roughly coincide with many folk's end-dates for the Silver Age?
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 15, 2007 14:30:24 GMT -5
Does anyone else notice that my end for the Spidey run (the death of Gwen Stacy/Green Goblin) and the FF run (Kirby would stay only a couple of more issues and then depart for DC) roughly coincide with many folk's end-dates for the Silver Age? I would also argue that the end of Spidey's great period came before the oversaturation began. When there was one book per month, every issue was special and exciting. As we moved into the days when several Spider-man books were coming out per month, they all really lost something. I really think that whole oversaturation (Greed) caused a lot of the problems we would see in comics in years to come. As a kid, I had very little money to spend, but comics were cheap and I could keep up with my favorite characters by only buying a few titles a month. Kids have lost interest in comics since then but it could be partly because keeping up with a favorite character, especially Spidey or Wolverine, costs more than they can convince parents to shell out. If we could have continued to move along with one book per character or team, we might also not have seen many of the cancellations we've endured through the years and would have seen a more consistent level of writing.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 15, 2007 14:40:45 GMT -5
Excellent point. Marvel Team-Up began shortly before I started buying comics. The earliest one I can remember buying was #28 with Hercules; I am pretty sure I had a couple of earlier issues but may have gotten them through trades with friends (remember doing that??). Then, around the time I was probably in 6th grade Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man arrived. Originally supposed to be a character-driven book that would center a bit more on Peter, it soon turned into just an "Amazing 1-A", as well as an additional vehicle for team-up stories (the White Tiger circa issue #9, as well as Angel and Iceman circa #18). I tried to buy all three titles, along with a slew of other books, but as you say -- once those prices started to creep toward 40 cents, there had to be some budgeting for this young spender!
Amazing... at 40 cents a book I was forced to make decisions on buying. Is it no wonder I don't buy very much now when books (same size, and sometimes lesser overall quality) sell for anywhere from 7 to 10 times as much???
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Post by sharkar on Jan 15, 2007 17:32:44 GMT -5
Does anyone else notice that my end for the Spidey run (the death of Gwen Stacy/Green Goblin) and the FF run (Kirby would stay only a couple of more issues and then depart for DC) roughly coincide with many folk's end-dates for the Silver Age? I like what Craig Shutt, aka Mr. Silver Age, says in his "Baby Boomer Comics" and elsewhere- - that the end of the Silver Age can be marked by these two more or less simultaneous events: Kirby's last FF issue as its regular artist (FF #102, Sept. 1970), before he went to DC and Mort Weisinger's last Superman issue (Superman #229, August 1970), before he retired The "end" of the Silver Age didn't occur overnight, certainly, but there's a nice symmetry to his theory. I guess there is room for other theories as well, for even though Gwen's death was a few years later (Spider-Man #121, June 1973), Busiek used it in Marvels; because to him , that event marked the end of the SA.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 15, 2007 18:04:07 GMT -5
Some have said they even view Adams work on Batman as a definitive moment departing what had gone before.
For my money, Kirby's departure from Marvel was such a watershed event in comics history that it would be hard to argue. At the time, DC was for the most part insignificant (except to its loyal readers).
Hard to find a person who will say good things about working with Mort Weisinger...
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Post by sharkar on Jan 15, 2007 21:54:59 GMT -5
Yes, Weisinger was known for being a real SOB. Those stories Shooter and others tell about working for him (including Roy Thomas, when he worked for MW briefly in the 60s) are astounding. Shutt's point is that there was a dual changing of the guard at the Big Two comics companies in Aug/Sept. 1970, so for better or worse, change was imminent. Because of the loss of key personnel, the look/tone of at least two flagship franchises (FF and the Superman family) had to change, it was inevitable. And these changes had a domino effect and impacted other books. So even though Mort's retirement may have been a blessing for the DC staff, and even though his books were taken over by Julius Schwartz (whom many credit as the father of the Silver Age, since his and Infantino's Flash is considered to be the first SA hero, back in 1956), it was clear that, for DC, one chapter had ended and another was beginning. About Marvel and Kirby: no question Jack's leaving caused a lot of frantic rearranging/rethinking at Marvel. Immediately after Jack left, many Marvel books were in a state of flux (it took a couple of years for Buscema/Sinnott to establish itself as the "house style" in the 70s). While I'd felt that Jack's pencils (at least on FF) were getting less and less detailed (could be due to Sinnott, who has said that at some point he stopped making Jack's art "prettier"), to me Kirby's FF was the definitive version and I could not accept Romita as the artist when JK left. So my interest in the FF started waning and I stopped reading FF around issue #112 (IIRC, when Ben fought the Hulk). John B's artwork was beautiful and dynamic, of course, but I wanted Jack back on the FF! I'd also felt that Stan's writing had been getting sloppier (another sign the SA was waning); could be because he was wearing so many hats at that time. For me, personally, the Silver Age ended with Avengers #105. Not for any thematic or editorial reason, but because my family and I had moved to another neighborhood, one without easy access to a store that sold comics- -so #105 was the last Marvel issue I was able to buy (except occasionally). I basically stopped reading comics cold turkey. Is there anyone out there whose absolute favorite WASN'T influenced by the first titles he/she picked up as a kid? My guess is no. It's funny, isn't it, how those comics we read as kids stay in our minds? I mean, I was a pretty voracious reader of both books and comic books as a kid, but I still remember where I bought each comic, under what circumstances, what season it was, discussions I had with friends about individual comics, etc. I can't say I remember such details about regular books.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 15, 2007 22:33:17 GMT -5
Yes, Weisinger was known for being a real SOB. Those stories Shooter and others tell about working for him (including Roy Thomas, when he worked for MW briefly in the 60s) are astounding. Many creators tell of working with him in The Legion Companion. Shooter is about the only one who had anything resembling "neutral" to say. About Marvel and Kirby: no question Jack's leaving caused a lot of frantic rearranging/rethinking at Marvel. Immediately after Jack left, many Marvel books were in a state of flux (it took a couple of years for Buscema/Sinnott to establish itself as the "house style" in the 70s). While I'd felt that Jack's pencils (at least on FF) were getting less and less detailed (could be due to Sinnott, who has said that at some point he stopped making Jack's art "prettier"), to me Kirby's FF was the definitive version and I could not accept Romita as the artist when JK left. So my interest in the FF started waning and I stopped reading FF around issue #112 (IIRC, when Ben fought the Hulk). John B's artwork was beautiful and dynamic, of course, but I wanted Jack back on the FF! I'd also felt that Stan's writing had been getting sloppier (another sign the SA was waning); could be because he was wearing so many hats at that time. I completely agree with that. Having recently read a large chunk of this material from the FF DVD-ROM, I can also attest to the rocky start Roy Thomas got on the book. Even after several months, he told a clunker of a story here and there. For me, personally, the Silver Age ended with Avengers #105. Not for any thematic or editorial reason, but because my family and I had moved to another neighborhood, one without easy access to a store that sold comics- -so #105 was the last Marvel issue I was able to buy (except occasionally). I basically stopped reading comics cold turkey. That would have been depressing.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 16, 2007 10:21:42 GMT -5
Many creators tell of working with him in The Legion Companion. Shooter is about the only one who had anything resembling "neutral" to say. I completely agree with that. Having recently read a large chunk of this material from the FF DVD-ROM, I can also attest to the rocky start Roy Thomas got on the book. Even after several months, he told a clunker of a story here and there. That would have been depressing. It was horrible! My parents didn't allow me to subscribe (they felt comics were crap), and to make matters worse, where I used to live there was a great collectibles store where I could--and did-- buy back issues (from the early 60s). So when we moved, I was cut off from both new and old comics. I then became fascinated with movies and other things, and comics became a fond memory... Yes, it took Roy quite a while to settle in on the FF...surprising to me, since the quality of his work on the Avengers had been of a consistently high quality. I love the Legion Companion! And as you say, Shooter was charitable towards MW. Do you have the JLA Companion? Lots of Marvel references, even a Roy Thomas interview with information about the Squadron Supreme and the Red Tornado/Vision connection.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 16, 2007 10:50:59 GMT -5
No, I don't have that one, but would like to. Similarly, I'd like to go ahead and complete the library with the two All-Star companions and the Teen Titans volume. I just love reading the old anecdotes about creators and which idea belonged to who (and the disputes that sometimes arise from that). Speaking of this, and of Roy, I can't tell you how odd I found it that when I asked him about the Crystal/Quicksilver thread awhile back that he had no memory of the decision to marry them. I've read other things from him, specifically concerning his and Neal Adams' memories of the Kree/Skrull War, where he jumped up to defend ideas that he felt were his. Guess he didn't think my topic was as important... . My son is going to write his freshman term paper on the history of Batman. Last night I got him set up with 7-8 reference books on the character. Even leafing through them quickly, I found the arguments between Bob Kane and Jerry Robinson as to who created the Joker. Fun stuff!!
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Post by sharkar on Jan 16, 2007 20:45:22 GMT -5
Speaking of this, and of Roy, I can't tell you how odd I found it that when I asked him about the Crystal/Quicksilver thread awhile back that he had no memory of the decision to marry them. I've read other things from him, specifically concerning his and Neal Adams' memories of the Kree/Skrull War, where he jumped up to defend ideas that he felt were his. Guess he didn't think my topic was as important... . You're being too hard on yourself! I remember that thread--I was jealous that you had an inside track to Roy and could e-mail him- -until you said something like, well, his e-mail address is listed in every issue of "Alter Ego." D'oh! This was discussed previously in your great Crys-Quickie Classics thread, but I do believe that Roy genuinely forgot about why he paired these two up. (IIRC, back then in letter columns he and Steve Englehart were credited with coming up with the idea, though Gerry Conway scripted their actual wedding a couple of years later). I think Roy truly meant their pairing as just a convenient way to take care of two then-bland characters; they'd still be around, but by putting them together, he was tying up loose ends and ensuring (at that time) that they wouldn't interfere with the main storylines of the Avengers or FF (apart from Pietro popping up occasionally to criticize Wanda's relationship with Vision). As such, I feel that since Roy thought this development involved relatively inconsequential characters, he forgot any circumstances surrounding it. Back in the '70s, I don't think Roy was interested in exploring their union--or these two characters-- at all. It wasn't the 1980s that writers really began to pick up on Crys and Pietro and explore the possibilities: C & P had a baby, the conflict over submitting Luna to the Terrigen Mists, Crys and the real estate agent, Crys trying to win Johnny back, QS snapping and fighting the FF and the Avengers, etc. (not to mention the stories in the 1990s). As it turns out, their union really paved the way for the ultimate, ongoing crossover, because the union provided a real connection among the great Marvel teams- - FF, Avengers, Inhumans, X-Men/X-Factor. And this union continues to provide story fodder to this very day. That's fantastic that you and your son both share a love of comics and comics history. When I was a freshman, I returned home on break to find--what else?--my parents had thrown out my comics collection.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 16, 2007 21:04:29 GMT -5
He's actually a freshman in high school. He's into tpb's and collecting Marvel Legends action figures mostly. He also loves the McFarlane Sports Picks figures. With all of that, it gives us (along with my younger son, who also loves the "McFarlane's") a chance to go to the Chicago Con each summer.
BTW, I'm sure he will have a section in his paper on the 1966 Adam West movie and tv show. He just loves the scene in the movie when the rubber shark is hanging off Batman's leg and he pulls the "Bat Shark Repellent" out of his utility belt! Groan.... we comics fans have been paying for stuff like that ever since!
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Apr 26, 2007 20:35:57 GMT -5
Sorry if as a newbie I'm reviving old threads but asI've just done some griping on a couple of threads I thought I'd try and be more positive here. My favourite runs on the Avengers are as follows:
1. The Shooter/Micheline years. Set the standard and often had great art thanks to Byrne and Perez. Quite like Bob Hall too. Whilst a fine artist Gene Colan was totally wrong for the Avengers. 2. Roy Thomas with (mostly) John Buscema. The classics. 3. John Byrne on WCA. I understand that most of you really hated these. Oh well, I'm afraid that I loved them and wish there had been more. His writing on the regular Avengers at the same time was extremely mediocre oddly enough and wasn't graced by his artwork. Go figure. 4. Avengers Forever. Really great. 5. The Stern/ John Buscema period. I've never felt that Stern was a really great writer but rather a solid craftsman for Marvel. Old reliable. When he got Buscema working with him it raised the book to a higher level and this period is really enjoyable.
The early Lee/Kirby issues are pretty cool too.
Although the Avengers was always my favourite comic, it's nature as a commercial vehicle for Marvel has prevented it from having really creative work done on it (and probably quite rightly so) in my view. I wouldn't pick any Avengers comics amongst my best ever comics (with the possible exception of Avengers Forever) though I have great affection for all the runs I've mentioned.
Anyway, my top two choices I view as definitive. Everything you need to know about the Avengers is in them and they contain all the elements that make it a great comic book.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 26, 2007 21:08:22 GMT -5
Crimson, 2 things, first of all, don't worry about reviving old threads. It makes people happy. Right DLW? second, I have to agree with you on the WCA angle. I am one of the few non-haters.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 27, 2007 13:52:41 GMT -5
I'm going to offer my unpopular opinion then crawl back into my hole. The Busiek run will always be the defining run for me because it's the run that made me a bigtime Avengers fan. I can read old runs like the Shooter run and enjoy them, but I can't help but think storytelling has developed and while those may have been the best of their time, the Busiek run is far superior. I know, I know, blasphemy. Back into my suspiciously-castle-like hole now
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 28, 2007 0:17:26 GMT -5
I'm going to offer my unpopular opinion then crawl back into my hole. The Busiek run will always be the defining run for me because it's the run that made me a bigtime Avengers fan. I can read old runs like the Shooter run and enjoy them, but I can't help but think storytelling has developed and while those may have been the best of their time, the Busiek run is far superior. I know, I know, blasphemy. Back into my suspiciously-castle-like hole now Shockingly, D.D., I agree with you...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 28, 2007 3:58:52 GMT -5
I'm going to offer my unpopular opinion then crawl back into my hole. The Busiek run will always be the defining run for me because it's the run that made me a bigtime Avengers fan. I can read old runs like the Shooter run and enjoy them, but I can't help but think storytelling has developed and while those may have been the best of their time, the Busiek run is far superior. I know, I know, blasphemy. Back into my suspiciously-castle-like hole now Shockingly, D.D., I agree with you... ...Ag-reee?
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 28, 2007 8:42:12 GMT -5
I don't agree with either of you, but we've beat this horse bloody many times in the past. No one is right or wrong -- it comes down to generational preferences. When I want to go re-read a fun Avengers story, I'll gather up the Bride of Ultron 4-parter, Korvac Saga, the Celestial Madonna, or the Byrne Nefaria story. For history, anything by Thomas/Buscema. But the former group of stories are the one from my middle school/junior high school years, and they represent the era I'm most fond of. Even after having read most things Avengers, those stories are the pinnacle for me.
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Post by uberwolf on Apr 28, 2007 9:04:08 GMT -5
The Busiek run was really good. It revived the Avengers after years of shabby storytelling like The Crossing and Heroes Reborn. However, I find the late '70's work the era that will always be the defining Avengers moment for me.
Busiek did a great job restarting the title, but I found the ending to the "Triple Evil" storyline dissapointing after all the build up. It got swallowed in the Kang War which was too drawn out. Not a great story, but it had it's moments.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 28, 2007 10:58:13 GMT -5
Yeah, bur what about "Ultron Unlimited"...? Wasn't it one of the greatest Avengers' sagas ever...? The battle itself was awesome; it truly made me wonder how the Avengers were gonna win that one; however, what I especially liked was: A) How part of it was seen through the perspective of rookie Firestar B) How Justice was integral to defeating Ultron in spite of being sidelined C) Ultron confronting all the members of its "family" and D) Hank Pym at the end delivering the "killing" blow, rising to the occasion, or growing as a character, if you will (bad pun intended...) and achieving not a small measure of redemption, IMO, by staring straight at his past mistakes & his fears without blinking...
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