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Post by Bored Yesterday on Oct 6, 2006 8:25:34 GMT -5
This issue has been discussed on the board before, but apparently not in its own thread. I tried to find it, but can't, so here's a new one. Finally read this issue. The firs adventure of the original New Avengers, by Stan Lee and Don Heck. Find the cover at -- www.plexico.net/avengers/covers/a011.htmlHere we have Captain America leading the new team of Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye. Their mission, to find some more muscle for the team, the Hulk. Instead, they are captured by the Moleman, and while fighting to escape, they learn that there is no need for additional power, because if they work as a team, they have enough power amongst themselves. This book is cool, in part because we get to see some of the earliest interaction among characters who became like family in later decades. Now, it's old hat to have characters comment on what a great leader Captain America is, but in this issue, they are observing this for the first time. Also, whereas we are used to seeing Cap rely on the proven abilities of trusted team mates, in this issue, we get to see the formulation of that trust. It's fun to old standby Avengers be surprised at how Cap can fight. Somebody commented in another thread how Cap used to always remind Hawkeye to use his arrows in these early New Avengers storeis. It's true. It's a hoot. The action in the story is moderately entertaining, but the success of the book relies more on characterization than plot itself. The Moleman is shown to be truly despicable. At one point, he captures Quicksilver and threatans to torture him to death unless QS reveals the secret of his speed power. One of the most suspenseful moments in the book, is when they fall into a "bottomless pit" and nobody on the team can fly. Cap reminds Hawkeye to use his suction arrow to fasten a line and save the team. The menace on the cover of the book is the Minotaur -- a monster under the control of Moleman. He out powers the Avengers in sheer muscle, but thansk to Wanda -- in the first of her miraculous saves -- the Minotaur's horns are embedded into the rock of an underground cavern. They comment that if he were to tear himself free, his horns would be ripped off, and the beast would die. The Avengers just leave him to suffer there. Has he reappeared since then? After defeating the Minotaur, the Avengers rescue QS and leave the Moleman be. They fly around in a new version of their yellow jets. Not yet called a "quin jet," but just sort of generically space-agey looking. The Hulk is included in the comic, but not really as part of the story. The Hulk is engaged in some action with the Leader some miles from where the Avengers are fighting the Mole Man. A few panels are devoted to showing that this is happening, but not a lot is told. The second to last panel shows Bruce Banner dead on the ground, and I suppose if this was the only book a 1965 readers read that month, he would assume the Hulk was dead forever. It's kind of neat, because as far as the Avengers are concerend, the Hulk is a dead issue. At the end of this comic, the Avengers don't need him -- and showing Bruce Banner dead is an unmistakable message to readers that he won't be joining the Avengers. This must have been a big question at the time, because Hulk had only left the Avengers 14 issue prior. Don Heck's art isn't as polished as his later issues, but I always enjoy the more realistic proportions silver age heroes are depicted as having. Wanda's big thighs ... lanky limbs on Cap and Quicksilver. Overall, this is a pretty fun book to read, as anyone with the DVD ROM can attest. I love reading the Stan Lee books that established the Marvel Universe's greatness.
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Post by bobc on Oct 6, 2006 9:25:38 GMT -5
I loved that issue! Isn't it funny that Wanda started out being the most powerful on the team, and they just depowered her and depowered her until she was pretty much useless in a year or two? And why would any sane person want the Hulk on the team? Didn't Iron Man suggest that? Talk about setting them up to fail!! I'm surprised he didn't suggest recruiting Doctor Doom or Galactapuss.
I'm pretty sure the Minotaur is still stuck there--he hasn't reappeared to the best of my knowledge.
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Post by bobc on Oct 6, 2006 9:26:32 GMT -5
Hey can someone PLEASE post a link to where I can purchase the CD ROM? I did a search on Amazon and came up empty.
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Oct 6, 2006 11:49:52 GMT -5
The Minotaur has all the makings of an arch-villain for the Scarlet Witch. He should escape, and after 40-years of being pinned to the ground, he would be enraged with a bloolust for the Witch who pinned him there. Of course, somebody would have to explain hwy Moleman didn't free him. Perhaps he tried, but in his rage, the Minotaur collapsed the cavern and so the Moleman gave up the effort.
Now, somehow, after the House of M nonsense, during Avengers Disassembled maybe, the Wtich's subconcious felt pity for the monster she so unfairly imprisoned on her first Avengers mission. and the monster was freed. Now it wants revenge.
A god villain like that might be all SW needs to claim her A-list status in comics.
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 6, 2006 12:08:15 GMT -5
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 6, 2006 13:22:26 GMT -5
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Post by bobc on Oct 6, 2006 13:38:36 GMT -5
Thanks Shiryu and DL.
Bored--sounds good to me. The Minotaur could be extra enraged if the bug-eyed minions of the MoleMan violated him in a most unnatural manner while he was stuck to that stone wall! Times are hard in the underground catacombs, I hear. And Minotaurs aren't too far from sheep if you think about it.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 6, 2006 13:44:02 GMT -5
I have always thought of the Subterraneans as fraternity brothers...
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Post by bobc on Oct 6, 2006 13:50:52 GMT -5
I thought they were like Pillsbury Doughboys with eating disorders. But whatever you call them, they were fabulous.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 6, 2006 14:17:54 GMT -5
bob -- Head over to the Civil War thread; I know you'll be happy you did .
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Oct 6, 2006 14:23:31 GMT -5
Thanks Shiryu and DL. if the bug-eyed minions of the MoleMan violated him in a most unnatural manner Exploring every cavern -- those subterraneans
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Post by bobc on Oct 6, 2006 16:57:06 GMT -5
OMIGOD!!!!
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 6, 2006 20:41:18 GMT -5
It gets lonely down there....
Have you ever seen the old FF where the Mole Man seemingly has a babe (looker, too), only she dumps him for Tyrannus? Broke my heart...
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 10, 2006 19:18:58 GMT -5
I just read this story again (for the first time in a few years) from the Marvel Masterworks Vol. 9 (Avengers 11-20). I concur with everything boredyesterday said about the story, and his comments were embellished nicely by Mr. bobc. I would like to point out two things that grabbed me about this story.
First, in one panel I believe the subterraneans are speaking. Either that, or the Mole Man is behind them off-camera. They don't speak ever, do they??
Second, as bored pointed out, Don Heck's art is not as nice as it would be through the #20's-#30's (until Big John Buscema arrived to give the book its classic look!!). I really think part of the problem is "Rich" (sorry -- the stupid censor program changed his real name to "thingy"... that just drives me crazy!!!! Fix it, Shiryu!!!) Ayers on inks. If anyone out there has the Essential Silver Surfer, you'll know how Ayers just buried Big John's pencils. I think that is the root of the problem in this book, because if you have access to issues #20-21 which are inked by Wally Wood, you'll find that Heck's pencils look very much different. It's like Kirby inked by Joe Sinnott, and Kirby inked by anyone else. Just doesn't look right...
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Oct 11, 2006 8:04:07 GMT -5
Yes -- the artwork improved a great deal when Wally Wood (why doesn't the censor fix that name?) took over inks.
I just read issues 19 through 22, and I'm so pleasantly surprised. The covers aren't that great, but the stories are truly superb. I keep meaning to post a thread about the intro. of the Swordsman, but just haven't gotten around to it yet. Those are very interesting issues in a number of ways.
I don't remember which specific issue, I think it was number 20 -- in the letter column, it says that Hawkeye's secret identity hasn't even gotten a name yet. I LOVE IT! They introduce a new member of the team based entirely on his super hero identity without much back story to speak of, don't even have a real name for him yet. Now that's the ingenuity of true comic book pioneers.
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Post by bobc on Oct 11, 2006 8:50:45 GMT -5
I remember that FF episode when the Mole Man got dumped for Tyrannus (I think that was his name)--and then everybody betrayed each other! Those were the good old days! It's really remarkable how Marvel remained so consistantly good throughout the 70's and 60's. Seems like things have gotten shallower and shallower (with some stellar exceptions) ever since.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 11, 2006 9:17:26 GMT -5
Let me STRONGLY recommend that any who have access read FF #'s 140-141. These are the issues where the FF fight Annihilus and at the end of the story Reed turns some Negative ray on Franklin, effectively turning him into a vegetable. I just re-read these off the DVD-ROM last night, and if you are looking for excellent writing, superb Buscema/Sinnott art, and CHARACTERIZATION then this is the story for you.
Those questioning whether Reed is in character or not in Civil War might enjoy this instance where the entire team walks out on him because of his actions.
Back to Avengers -- #'s 19-20 were my introduction to the book through reprints in Marvel Triple Action. Needless to say, I was hooked.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 11, 2006 10:59:33 GMT -5
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Post by Tana Nile on Oct 11, 2006 12:51:28 GMT -5
Let me STRONGLY recommend that any who have access read FF #'s 140-141. These are the issues where the FF fight Annihilus and at the end of the story Reed turns some Negative ray on Franklin, effectively turning him into a vegetable. I just re-read these off the DVD-ROM last night, and if you are looking for excellent writing, superb Buscema/Sinnott art, and CHARACTERIZATION then this is the story for you. Those questioning whether Reed is in character or not in Civil War might enjoy this instance where the entire team walks out on him because of his actions. Back to Avengers -- #'s 19-20 were my introduction to the book through reprints in Marvel Triple Action. Needless to say, I was hooked. Wow, I was just saying the other day that I have always had a poor impression of Reed, and part of it comes from the fact that some of the earliest F4's I read were the issues where he vegetablized Franklin! I still question his CW behavior, but yes, those old issues showed he can be capable of some nasty decisions. And Marvel Triple Action! between that series, Marvel's Greatest Comics, and Marvel Tales, I learned all about the beginnings of the MU, a good ten years or so after all of those stories originally occured. It was a great way for a reader to experience those old, ground-breaking issues.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 11, 2006 12:57:17 GMT -5
Concerning the aforementioned FF story, I had somewhat of a different impression of Reed this time around as compared to when I read it first as a 7 or 8-year old kid. Back then I am sure my immature mind couldn't grasp what had just happened. Now, as a 40-year old with a ton of life experiences behind me, I came to Reed's action with more of a sense of duty not only to Sue and Franklin but to the universe in general. Here is a man that is capable of literally saving the planet on a daily basis (regardless of what the threat might be) and chooses to do so at the potential expense of his baby. However, the father's love side of the story cannot be dismissed. As Franklin approached "critical mass", Reed used the ray to throw him into the comatose state until he could find the cure. As this is in the midst of one of Reed and Sue's major break-ups, everyone's reaction is magnified in the moment.
Wow, great Bronze Age stuff. As someone said on another thread earlier, it's a shame what today's readers get in relation to what those of us "older folks" grew up with!
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Post by bobc on Oct 11, 2006 13:22:16 GMT -5
Whether you had a good or bad impression of Reed, you have to admit that those stories made you think and provoked really strong emotions. That to me is the mark of a great writer--great characterization, as Dl says. To even remember, thirty years later, those events in FF history, says a lot about the quality of the stories. There were literally YEARS of bland FF stories that nobody remembers or cares about, but it seems like the 60's and early 70's were very memorable, but after that there was a wasteland until Byrne came along to reinvigorate the book.
The Avengers have been the same way. I wonder how many people will remember anything about the last couple years of the New Avengers. I mean other than outrage.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 11, 2006 22:19:06 GMT -5
I am working on a multi-issue, multi-book "Know the Classics" thread. Trouble is, I am not reading the books fast enough! But, it will be a nice tie-in to some things we've been discussing (if and when I get it written and posted!).
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Post by sharkar on Oct 11, 2006 22:48:04 GMT -5
I really like the art in issue #23, inked by John Romita (over Heck's pencils). Beautiful. As is the case with Wood, Jazzy Johhny Sr. really enhanced Heck's art.
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Post by sharkar on Oct 11, 2006 22:55:41 GMT -5
I really like the art in issue #23, inked by John Romita (over Heck's pencils). Beautiful. As is the case with Wood, Jazzy Johhny Sr. really enhanced Heck's art. Sorry, guys, I should have linked my post to dlw's and boredyesterday's earlier posts in which they referred to Wally Wood's inks. My post would benefit from being in context.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 12, 2006 12:04:43 GMT -5
dlw66, but there's a HUGE difference between what Reed did to Franklin then & what he's doing now... Elsewhere, I posited that the only 3 reasons I could see for the Avengers to engage in such an all-out war against each others & their allies were: 1) If some of them would have become evidently & obviously evil (or crazy), 2) If some (or all of them) were being mind controlled in such a way that their mental shackles could not be shattered or 3) If the survival of the world (or the universe) would be in question... I honestly don't see ANY OTHER REASON for so many of them to stand ready to tear each other's throats over this situation... Well, I believe Reed (& the FF, as a whole) would not behave any different among themselves & in respect to their longtime allies & friends... And another very important distinction that you mentioned, dlw66, is that then we were showed how doing what he did ripped Reed's soul apart... Now we're hardly being shown any kind of emotional consequences (with the exception of Spider-Man) and while that might work with Noir & hard-boiled stories, the kind that Mr. Bendis seems to be good at writing, from what I'm told, it just plainly doesn't work with the Avengers or the FF. It just makes them look like cold, insensitive jerks...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 12, 2006 17:11:07 GMT -5
"Rich" (sorry -- the stupid censor program changed his real name to "thingy"... that just drives me crazy!!!! Fix it, Shiryu!!!) Ayers Ya mean… Dick Ayers? Tip: just insert a zero-width joiner character (expressible in HTML as “‍”) in the censorship-prone word: e.g., “D‍ick” renders as “Dick”.
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 13, 2006 8:43:36 GMT -5
(sorry -- the stupid censor program changed his real name to "thingy"... that just drives me crazy!!!! Fix it, Shiryu!!!) Fixed it, I have deleted that specific censor, so now Rick Tracy goes and Dick Tracy is welcome back ;D I will put the censor back in case Dick is used in, well, "the other" sense
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 13, 2006 9:12:15 GMT -5
Thanks very much! I certainly understand why it is there, but it does pose a problem. Now, can we also fix it so we can say the beloved artist of the Legion and the All-New, All-Different X-Men: Dave Cockrum?
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 13, 2006 9:12:40 GMT -5
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Post by asgardian on Oct 20, 2006 1:49:47 GMT -5
The Minotaur has all the makings of an arch-villain for the Scarlet Witch. He should escape, and after 40-years of being pinned to the ground, he would be enraged with a bloolust for the Witch who pinned him there. Of course, somebody would have to explain hwy Moleman didn't free him. Perhaps he tried, but in his rage, the Minotaur collapsed the cavern and so the Moleman gave up the effort. Now, somehow, after the House of M nonsense, during Avengers Disassembled maybe, the Wtich's subconcious felt pity for the monster she so unfairly imprisoned on her first Avengers mission. and the monster was freed. Now it wants revenge. A god villain like that might be all SW needs to claim her A-list status in comics. That is a very good idea.
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