Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 28, 2006 23:41:10 GMT -5
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rui
Force Works-er
Posts: 15
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Post by rui on Aug 29, 2006 0:59:01 GMT -5
That's it? These are the Mighty Avengers? I don't know...somehow I'm not as thrilled as I thought I would be... at least it has more REAL Avengers than the New Avengers. Just tell me that's not Ares (or worse, Gilgamesh!)...
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 29, 2006 1:19:17 GMT -5
It's Ares.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 29, 2006 5:07:49 GMT -5
Oh My God.
Marvel actually gave us a decent team of people who COULD be a real Avengers line-up! (Plus Ares)
I think that pretty much confirms that Mister Pym won't be outlasting Civil War....
PS: Happy Birthday, Ultron!
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 29, 2006 7:39:01 GMT -5
Since the Henry Peter Gyrich days, the Avengers have regularly had 7 members on a given roster. Do you suppose there will be a major introduction/re-introduction at the end of one of the first few issues? Lord knows it will take at least a trade paperback's worth of issues to get this puppy off the ground..
Odd dynamic of characters if you ask me.
And a Happy Birthday to Ultron from me as well!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 29, 2006 9:49:23 GMT -5
Since the Henry Peter Gyrich days, the Avengers have regularly had 7 members on a given roster. Do you suppose there will be a major introduction/re-introduction at the end of one of the first few issues? Lord knows it will take at least a trade paperback's worth of issues to get this puppy off the ground.. ONE TPB? With Bendis? I think someone is being overly optimistic  In any case, my bet is still on Thor as another member. Anyone else wish the bounding Beast was there? Ah, him and leisure suit Wonder Man... good times.... |
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 29, 2006 10:45:15 GMT -5
I would love to see the George Perez-era Beast (not the current cat-looking guy I've seen in some pix). I agree with Thor as a potential 7th member. Hercules, anyone?? He and Ares existing together?? Now that would make for some group dynamics.
I have always preferred the Avengers with Cap. While I am not planning to pick this up while Bendis is the writer, I will try to keep up with what is going on in the book through the Previews solicitations, this board, etc.
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Aug 29, 2006 11:14:49 GMT -5
Could someone please remind me why we need a new Avengers book? And who is going to be on the roster for the "New Avengers" book. And why would you want the Wasp and the Black Widow on a team that sports 4 power houses like Iron Man, Wonderman, Ms Marvel and Ares. Please don't tell me either one is going to lead the team.
And isn't it a little ironic to have BW waving the American flag since she started out as a Russian spy.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 29, 2006 12:06:12 GMT -5
Just in answer to your questions, not in defense of the new book...
My take on Wasp and Black Widow in the book would be that they are the "stealth" element of the team, which actually shows a little foresight on someone's part. New Avengers as the roster currently exists is just a horrible mix of powers and personalities. This at least looks like it could be an Avengers line-up (Ares???).
I would have an easier time following Wasp or Natasha than I might following Iron Man...
Does anyone know if Natasha ever became a naturalized US citizen?
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 29, 2006 12:56:06 GMT -5
PS: Happy Birthday, Ultron! And a Happy Birthday to Ultron from me as well! Thanks guys!  Another nail in the coffin |
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steed
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 215
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Post by steed on Aug 29, 2006 12:57:26 GMT -5
No, but she resides in the US under an extended visa issued by SHIELD
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Post by von Bek on Aug 29, 2006 13:01:14 GMT -5
Wasn´t the original idea behind New Avengers that the team needed the A-list superheroes (at least in terms of sales) on the roster and that the second and third stringers were one of the main reasons the book wasn´t a (at least comercial) juggernaut?
So here we have the second and third stringers back plus Ares (WTF?)... Guess Marvel´s logic is too deep for me...
P.S. : Feliz Aniversário, Ultron!
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Post by redstatecap on Aug 29, 2006 13:46:14 GMT -5
Hey, it's Crossbones with a spiffy helmet! Oh wait, that's Ares. Ares on the Avengers...unbelievable.
Hey completists! Ares, of all people! This is what you get for supporting Marvel's idiocy, so stop complaining and belly up for another helping.
It's going to be a long, long time till I can buy this book again.
RSC
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 29, 2006 14:59:39 GMT -5
Do you suppose Ares got his helmet at the Maximoff family garage sale?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Aug 29, 2006 16:23:38 GMT -5
Since the Henry Peter Gyrich days, the Avengers have regularly had 7 members on a given roster. Do you suppose there will be a major introduction/re-introduction at the end of one of the first few issues? Although a seven-member team has often been used since then (I assume you mean the original Gyrich days), post-Gyrich Avengers teams have often settled at a greater or lesser number of members. But certainly it’s possible that a seventh member is already planned. I don’t know if this is the answer, but I noticed that in Marvel’s October solicitations, the entry for Doctor Strange: The Oath #1 says, “This limited series will firmly establish Doctor Strange in the current Marvel Universe as well as setting him up to join a surprising new team!” Feliz dia de anos, Ultrão! |
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rui
Force Works-er
Posts: 15
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Post by rui on Aug 29, 2006 16:39:50 GMT -5
That would be interesting. I never understood why Dr Strange was never a member of the Avengers. Is it because he looks like Tony Stark twin brother!? But seriously, most of the members of the Defenders were at some point or were offered membership in the Avengers. E.g.: Hulk, Namor,Hawkeye, Black Knight, Hellcat, Luke Cage (yes, he was there too), Moondragon, Beast, etc. So why not the good Doctor? But as dlw66 said, there's someone missing... Captain America. I guess we just have to wait what happens after Civil War...
Just a footnote: didi anyone noticed that Luke Cage has been in three major teams? Fantastic Four, Defenders and now Avengers (well not that major). Maybe in the future we will find out that he is a mutant and someone can put him in the X-Men roster....
Parabén Ultron!!
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Post by The Night Phantom on Aug 29, 2006 16:57:53 GMT -5
That would be interesting. I never understood why Dr Strange was never a member of the Avengers. Is it because he looks like Tony Stark twin brother!? But seriously, most of the members of the Defenders were at some point or were offered membership in the Avengers. E.g.: Hulk, Namor,Hawkeye, Black Knight, Hellcat, Luke Cage (yes, he was there too), Moondragon, Beast, etc. So why not the good Doctor? Nothing against him, but as I mentioned yesterday, I like the notion of different teams having different “spaces”. Having any character serving on any team erodes the differences between the teams and, in my opinion, makes them less interesting. |
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Post by balok on Aug 29, 2006 17:30:36 GMT -5
Dr. Strange is hard to write as a member of a team. He can literally do almost anything and that means his opponents are similarly powerful. Anything powerful enough to give him a decent fight is going to mop up most other heroes. Ares' costume is just plain dumb looking. Like something a bad 1970's era wrestler might wear. And the chipped stone axe? The God of War should wield a sword and a d**n nice looking one, at that. And that's once you get past the idea that a major god of the Greek pantheon would stoop to this sort of involvement in Earthly affairs. His involvement would likely be creating the kind of problems the Avengers would be called on to solve. Ah, well, anything to bring in the munchkins, I guess...  |
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Post by The Night Phantom on Aug 29, 2006 18:04:45 GMT -5
The God of War should wield a sword I dunno—a rocket launcher might make more sense. |
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 29, 2006 20:27:02 GMT -5
PS: Happy Birthday, Ultron! And a Happy Birthday to Ultron from me as well! Thanks guys! Another nail in the coffin Aww, Ultron, you'll just upgrade to a new body. Long live Ultron 13, or Ultron 14 or Ultron 27... |
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 30, 2006 11:27:57 GMT -5
.... I am thoroughally convinced now that no comic fan will allow themselves to be happy.  NOT I wish to stress, on this board, but on CBR, there were a number of Avengers fans complaining non-stop about Ares and saying it outwighed the 'few good things' about the roster. Here's what it seems to me. Marvel are giving Avengers fans a GREAT (and ACTUAL AVENGERS) roster. Plus Ares. And giving Avengers fans the writer they absoloutely despise. I'm certainly going to TRY Mighty Avengers. I mean... it can't possibly be worse than New Avengers unless Ares is the most major character Let me put it like this: I'd rather have Bendis writing a REAL Avengers team than a REAL Avengers writer writing the New Avengers. Because if a real writer were writing New AVengers, it would be a great book which still wasn't vengers. Now, however, we are getting a probably-horrible book. But it IS Avengers. Progress, Marvel. Progress. (PS: Actually, I'd rather have Kurt Busiek and Perez working on Mighty Avengers to be quite honest, but still. One step at a time. ) |
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Post by redstatecap on Aug 30, 2006 12:06:02 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you.
The New Avengers (with the exception of Wolverine) is to me a perfectly valid lineup as far as the characters themselves go.
The problem is what the writer did to get that lineup, and what he has subsequently done with those characters.
First he used AD as a completely unnecessary springboard to clear the slate in the most expeditious manner possible. Not to mention idiotic developments like how "Man Suit Ronin" was brought on board, and how Cap practically begged on his knees for Daredevil (of all people) to join. All that crap virtually guaranteed that there would be some prejudice toward the characters themselves.
Cap and Iron Man -- Staple Avengers
Spider-Man -- An idea that goes way back, and not a bad one.
Spider-Woman -- Not a particularly interesting character, but I'm not opposed to her for any particular reason either.
Cage -- Likewise. Neither a particularly interesting or uninteresting choice on his own merits.
Sentry-- A foolish ripoff of a character, but there have been worse Avengers.
Ronin -- A bad, bad JOKE as he/she was written. Done better it would simply have been another run-of-the-mill street-level ninja character.
Wolverine -- Never should have been on the team.
I think a competent writer could have made this roster work, with the exception of Wolverine, whom the real Avengers would never have tolerated. Unfortunately, on the Avengers title at least, Bendis is not competent and he's managed to make a train wreck of his own pet roster.
Second, the roster of his own choosing has been grossly underutilized, with zero team dynamic and most of the effort going towards pushing Spider-Woman, and to a lesser extent Cage and Sentry. This is IMO another big factor in the lack of acceptance of this roster. Whatever his apologists think, everyone else can see that there has been stunningly little inter-character development. People somewhat mistakenly associate that with the characters rather than with poor writing. Take JMS' Amazing Spider-Man. Whatever you think of JMS, there has been ten times the amount of character development on the Avengers roster in a very few issues of ASM crossovers, than there has been in 23 issues of the main title. And given that in the main title the NA have done precious little fighting and a lot of standing aroung talking, that's a damning indictment.
All this goes to what I'm trying to point out, which is that it's not the lineup, it's the writer. I guarantee you -- the "more classic" lineup of Mighty Avengers (excepting again the inexplicable choice of Ares) will be just as big a train wreck as New Avengers, because Bendis has proven over two years that he simply is not capable of doing better. Heck, it's very possible that Mighty Avengers will be a worse train wreck. Why? Because all those characters (except Ares) are very-well-known, longstanding Avengers. Unlike, say, Cage or Spider-Woman, fans know how they should behave and interact on the team. Unfortunately, it can be taken as a given that Bendis will not know (or care!) and will saddle them with whatever out-of-character behaviors and motivations he pulls out of his *ss.
Did I mention that I'm ticked off that Bendis is getting the second book?
RSC
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 30, 2006 12:12:45 GMT -5
I would like to politely disagree with Doom's position on a different writer on New Avengers. I think the writing is what has made the book what I think it is, not the character roster. The Avengers have certainly had their share of strange rosters in the past (#300 with The Captain, Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, and Gilgamesh?  ), so I don't want to slam NA strictly on that part of it. As many have said, it's the lack of characterization and in many cases accurate characterization that has made the book bad. Coupled with better-solo characters like Spider-Man in the mix, we have a bad book. However, a writer more willing to play up the A-listers and, as bobc has so eloquently put it -- not make Cap such a wuss -- would help tremendously. I could live with Cage and Spider-Woman if they were written as supporting characters and if I had a good reason why they were in the book. Wolverine... I'll have to get back to you on that one! For me it's always been art then story, but I won't stay around for good art in a dumb book. Not that I think Cho's T&A fest is necessary... |
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 30, 2006 12:14:11 GMT -5
redstatecap -- we must have been typing at the same time!! Funny how close our posts are...
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Post by bobc on Aug 30, 2006 12:20:07 GMT -5
There was an interview with Bendis in Wizard and the new artist (I forget his name) and with his usual "grasp" of the characters, Bendis said the Avengers need a "stealth ninja" so he included the Black Widow. Someone needs to tell Bendis that she isn't a ninja, she is a former spy from the former Soviet Union
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 30, 2006 12:30:30 GMT -5
There was an interview with Bendis in Wizard and the new artist (I forget his name) and with his usual "grasp" of the characters, Bendis said the Avengers need a "stealth ninja" so he included the Black Widow. Someone needs to tell Bendis that she isn't a ninja, she is a former spy from the former Soviet Union Good luck on that, bendis keeps claiming that he knows all about the Avengers and has always been a big fan, but every time he says something, he proves that he does not have a clue. My favorites are: That the Scarlet Witch didn't know about here children. Wrong already handled Mr. Bendis. That Black Widow is a ninja. Wrong again. That chaos magic doesn not exist. Wrong again... And on and on it goes.... What is funny is I think if Bendis and Joe Q where not such good friends none of this would be happening. |
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Post by redstatecap on Aug 30, 2006 12:45:23 GMT -5
redstatecap -- we must have been typing at the same time!! Funny how close our posts are... Heh, yeah it is. Great minds think alike, I always say! BTW, I edited my post and added quite a bit more, including comments on why I think Mighty will be as bad if not worse. Re-read it and tell me what your opinion is. RSC |
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 30, 2006 12:51:57 GMT -5
I did notice that you tried to sneak some text by us!!!
I agree with just about everything you say. This is not unlike having to put up with the Batman TV show, then the rapidly-declining 89-90's movie franchise until we got (in between) Batman: The Animated Series and Batman Begins. Good stuff and crap all mixed together.
As others have said, this era will pass as other low points have before. But I am like many who just can't figure out why people think this book is good, for all the reasons we've stated.
As I've said, I am taking Quesada's/Bendis' advice and getting my fix from the Silver and Bronze Age work. It's fun, sometimes new again (if that makes sense -- time does cloud the memory, and revisiting is nice), Buscema's Silver Age work is without peer, and Roy generally wrote the team as I'd expect they should behave. I just don't think that that's too much to ask for in the present day.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 30, 2006 16:00:12 GMT -5
Please, do not mistake what I was saying. I think another Avengers on New Avengers would write a great book- maybe one of Marvel's best. But it isn't the Avengers. They have had their strange rosters in the past.... but there is such thing as credibility pushing. I think the fact that we are asked to believe that they have recruited Spider-Woman, Power Man etc, and NOT Black Widow, Yellowjacket, Wasp, Ms Marvel, Wonder Man, Justice, Firestar, etc- all EXTREMELY qualified- just shows how far we are asked to sink. Spider-Man should never be an AVenger. Yes I know he was an old reserve Avenger but normally he just popped up VERY occasionally for a comic relief issue. I love Spidey, he is my second favourite character, and I can say right now he has no right being in the New Avengers- it's contrary to his personality, his character, his very BEING, etc. I might appreciate this more if it didn't feel like 'Marvel team-up: Featuring Wolverine!' I think the cover of NA 20 says at all. Who could ever have foreseen the day when we would see the Big Three Avengers reflected... and they were Cap, Tony and... WOLVERINE. I could swallow it if there were four or five old Avengers and three or four newbies. But the actual team? Nope, no way. It's just not the Avengers to me. Has Bendis written Wonder Man or Black Widow or Wasp much before? If not, maybe we do have SOME hope he won't butcher THEM. Hell, maybe he'll even write the whole Mighty Avengers team well, maybe. You know what REALLY worries me about Mighty Avengers? The fact that more than ANY OTHER WRITER, bendis is writing Tony as an evil tool in Civil War... so God knows how he'll handle him in a book with him as the leader. This is what I love about AA, we can poplitely agree to disagree, friends. On CBR I would have been engaged in a war by now |
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 30, 2006 17:49:13 GMT -5
redstatecap -- we must have been typing at the same time!! Funny how close our posts are... Yes...  |
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Another nail in the coffin 
), so I don't want to slam NA strictly on that part of it. As many have said, it's the lack of characterization and in many cases accurate characterization that has made the book bad. Coupled with better-solo characters like Spider-Man in the mix, we have a bad book. However, a writer more willing to play up the A-listers and, as bobc has so eloquently put it -- not make Cap such a wuss -- would help tremendously. I could live with Cage and Spider-Woman if they were written as supporting characters and if I had a good reason why they were in the book. Wolverine... I'll have to get back to you on that one!