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Post by von Bek on May 19, 2006 14:17:01 GMT -5
;D Funny story about your student. I had trouble a couple of times on other boards for using the word black. Can you imagine that?...
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Post by dlw66 on May 19, 2006 14:44:08 GMT -5
I am all for people being able to name themselves. I just think sometimes we worry so much about semantics that it gets in the way of relationships, education, tolerance, etc.
Whooo -- getting a little philosophical on the ol' Avengers boards...
Back to the Groovy 70's:
Let's say Hercules and the Black (oops -- here we go again ;D) Widow decide to re-form the Champions. In addition to those two, who would you like to see in an LA or other West Coast-based superteam?
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Post by bobc on May 19, 2006 15:23:09 GMT -5
Remember Killdozer? hee hee~ definately back in the day!
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 19, 2006 16:57:11 GMT -5
Night Phantom's latest post ... or a Stan's Soapbox reprint? You decide! That's the kind of hype I like Phantom. Good on you. That Handbook sounds interesting. I was merely trying (badly) to capture some ’70s spirit with a little anachronistic lingo; if I had been trying to channel Smilin’ Stan, I probably would have put in a few choice phrases like “greetings, true believers!” or “who says this isn’t the Magnificent Marvel Age of Happily Helpful Hark-Back Handbooks?!!!” But upon rereading my post with your interpretation in mind, I could hear the Man’s voice spieling my words, and so I concede the point. Thanks—high praise indeed! Now, face front! ;D
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Post by bobc on May 19, 2006 17:16:27 GMT -5
I loved Stan Lee's good-natured chutzpah.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 19, 2006 21:21:27 GMT -5
ILet's say Hercules and the Black (oops -- here we go again ;D) Widow decide to re-form the Champions. In addition to those two, who would you like to see in an LA or other West Coast-based superteam? I’ve read only one issue of Champions and don’t have a strong sense of the team. But I do like the idea of that particular motley collection of heroes, and so I wouldn’t mind seeing some of the Widow’s and Herc’s former LA teammates back in action alongside them. In a way, it’s surprising that She-Hulk never served in the West Coast Avengers. In the ’80s, Stern and Byrne (rhyme unintended) often played her up as the transplanted “California girl”. But I suppose it’s easier to be the California girl when you’re not in California. (I once read an anecdote about an elderly Israeli who wished to move to his native Russia for his remaining days. One of his Israeli friends was incredulous, pointing out that the man’s friends, family, and life were all in Israel; what would he have in Russia? The man replied that in Israel, he would die a Russian; in Russia, he would die a Jew.) Shulkie has been part of the New York scene for so long, invested there in both her professions, that it might be interesting to see her transplanted back to her home state, where her nostalgic “California dreamin’” might be disturbed by unpleasant realities. (I’m not saying California is a horrible place—but like any other, it’s not perfect, either.) Another Avenger, Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), was also based in LA back in the ’70s. She later relocated to San Francisco. I’m not a fan of the espionage plot she’s currently mired in, but I like her character in general and wouldn’t mind seeing her on such a team. Jack Russell, a.k.a. Werewolf by Night, was also an LA resident back in the ’70s. (I’m not going out of my way to assemble a ’70s California line-up, folks—they’re just coming to me!) I miss the “California gothic” comics (not that I read them until years later), and I would enjoy seeing them represented through such a membership. (Spider-Woman’s comic also intersected with the California-gothic world.) At times Jack has been able to retain his rationality during his wolf state; I wouldn’t mind seeing him in an incarnation in which he has self-control but has to struggle to keep the beast in check. While three nights a month might be a little too rare, on the other hand it might be nifty to see him participate in a team while being forced to serve as both man and monster according to the Moon’s schedule. Maybe some compromise would be in order: he transforms every night, not just at full moons. (For that matter, I wouldn’t mind seeing a revival of the Legion of Monsters concept, without the flaws of the recent Nick Fury’s Howling Commandos.)
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Post by dlw66 on May 20, 2006 9:07:35 GMT -5
Wow -- you should be an editor -- great suggestions for what would make an interesting comic!
The only thing missing in your Israeli/Russian/Jew story, and perhaps it's part of the irony of the tale, is the long tradition of antisemitism in Russia, from the imperial times to the present. After the Holocaust, many Americans would assume that the Jews were able to reconstruct their lives in Eastern Europe; sadly, the opposite has been true. I think for your fictional Israeli to say he would die a Jew leaves out the notion that he would also die a hated man. But again, to die a Russian in Israel brings perhaps the same outcome.
OK, back to comics, a much lighter-hearted subject.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 20, 2006 15:05:31 GMT -5
Wow -- you should be an editor -- great suggestions for what would make an interesting comic! Well, you know what they say at the House of Ideas: the readers are the real editors! (Well, they used to say that... ) Perhaps the thing that was really missing from my post was clarity! ;D When I said it’s “easier” for Shulkie to be Californian outside California and likened the situation to being Jewish outside Israel or Russian outside Russia, I was referring to the notion that one’s identity as a member of a group is much more distinct when one is not surrounded by members of the same group. Outsider status is much more tangible than conformist status. I did not mean to suggest that outsider status makes life in general easier, since of course that’s so often not the case. But if a certain identity is important to you, then it may be easier to explore and maintain that identity away from a crowd of identities identical to your own. That’s what I’ve always taken the Russian-Israeli story to mean. (And as for dying a hated man, well...maybe he was greatly disliked in Israel, too! ) Well, actually I did mean something else, too, though I don’t think it applies to my anecdote. She-Hulk has a habit of romanticizing California, but I think it would be harder for her to maintain such an idyllic view while there, since she would be confronted with certain realities that would be less romanticizable. Yes, let’s pull out our copies of Maus...
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Post by dlw66 on May 20, 2006 18:49:05 GMT -5
I teach Maus each spring to 9th graders. It is a powerful graphic novel -- even students who have no comics background at all, who don't even check the Sunday funnies love that book. By the second or third page they are hooked and forget that the story is told with animal metaphors. In Volume II Spiegelman worries "aloud" about his feelings of inadequacy at portraying Auschwitz in the comic format. He succeeded so well... My absolute favorite scene in that book is when Art is meeting with his therapist over his aversion at attempting to relate Vladek's stay at Auschwitz, and they are discussing Art's feeling that he can never convey the fear the prisoners must have gone through. The therapist hesitates for a minute, then screams "BOO!!" right in Art's face. Of course Art about jumps out of his skin. The therapist says, "It felt like that... but all the time." Man, that puts it in perspective for me, and I always stress that scene with my students. If any posters are interested in Maus, I would also direct you to Will Eisner's graphic novel The Plot, which is about The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. It is excellent in portraying a work that survives to this day and is used by antisemites, despite the fact that it was exposed as a fraud and a plagiarism around 90 years ago. In many places in the Middle East, The Protocols is the second-best selling book, behind only the Koran. Night Phantom, I understand what you mean about She-Hulk. Thanks for illuminating your point further.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 20, 2006 20:34:56 GMT -5
I teach Maus each spring to 9th graders. Boy, did I open my big mouth... ;D Actually, I enjoyed reading your slice of life. Keep in mind that Arabs are a Semitic people, just like ethnic Jews. While situations like the sectarian violence in Iraq, anti-democratic Middle Eastern regimes, and the phenomenon of Arab suicide bombers might suggest there’s a lot of anti-Arab feeling among Arabs—which in turn could be part of a broader anti-Semitic feeling—I suspect that anti-Semitism per se is really not much at play there. I am sure there is a lot of anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, and/or anti-Israeli feeling in Arab nations, alas, but probably little in the way of full-blown anti-Semitism (in superficial feeling, anyway—though again, perhaps the practice is another story!). And thank you for your illuminations, too!
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Post by dlw66 on May 21, 2006 14:46:16 GMT -5
I don't think the term antisemitism applies to Arabs -- only to Jews, at least in the popular sense of the term. When German journalist Wilhelm Marr coined the term in 1879, it was directed at the Jews, who were supposedly from an ancient Middle Eastern "race", the Semite race. Your point about "ethnic" Jews was well-taken -- too often people look for biological differences to justify their hatred of others. What we generally just end up with is a dislike of the unlike -- xenophobia.
Sorry if I gave you more than you wanted after the Maus comment. I teach a class to high school seniors entitled Social Injustices, of which the Holocaust is a major unit.
OK, back to being "groovy"... aside from the Dave C/Mike Grell makeover for the Legion of Super-Heroes, are there any other memorable costume changes that you feel were directly the result of the disco era?
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 21, 2006 18:22:33 GMT -5
I don't think the term antisemitism applies to Arabs -- only to Jews, at least in the popular sense of the term. When German journalist Wilhelm Marr coined the term in 1879, it was directed at the Jews, who were supposedly from an ancient Middle Eastern "race", the Semite race. Obviously some people have terribly uncharitable feelings about both Jews and Arabs, and commonalities between both those Semitic groups may have something to do with that, at least some of the time. I don’t know, but in Marr’s Germany it may be the case that Jews were more of an “issue” than Arabs: there are many Arabs (and other non-Semitic Muslims who get lumped in with Arabs) in Germany today, but (I’m guessing) they were relatively few in that land at that time, whereas Jews formed quite a sizable and visible segment of the population in and around Germany during Marr’s life. So, I wouldn’t be surprised that in that era “anti-Semitism” (“Antisemitismus”) was applied more or less exclusively to Jews, since in the absence of Arabs (or, more to the point, the absence of thought about Arabs) it’s harder to apply the sentiment to them. But they are Semites, carrying on a Semitic-derived culture; and I think that to ignore that fact when throwing around the terminology would be just as erroneous as referring to the “African-American” population of Europe (aside from expatriates like Josephine Baker and Richard Wright, natch). Indeed, given the current state of the world, I think it’s particularly pernicious to employ language that insidiously (if unintentionally) denies Arabs both their own roots and their common fellowship with Jews. Agreed. But simultaneously I can’t help also taking on the issue from another angle. As I suggested in my previous post, from a certain point of view, some political and social tendencies in the Arab world are anti-Arab (and thus possibly anti-Semitic). And Arabs certainly have no monopoly on hatred for one’s fellow man: Irish vs. Irish, Americans vs. Americans, Christians vs. Christians, Sudanese vs. Sudanese, etc.—all part of a very long and inglorious story. Sadly, anti-humanism is rife among the human race. No, actually I think it’s quite cool that you’ve found a way to legitimately incorporate comics into the teaching of a serious subject seldom associated with comics (in America, anyway). I hope your students enjoy your class and grow with it, but I have to wonder if—at least, before they actually start attending the course—they tend to make comments like, “ All my classes are social injustices!” Well, there’d be the change from Allison Blaire’s classic Dazzler outfit, directly due to it no longer being the disco era. And I realize this costume accompanied a wholesale change of identity driven by other concerns, but don’t you think Steve Rogers as Nomad looked ready for the clubs? ;D
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Post by dlw66 on May 21, 2006 20:10:26 GMT -5
Jews formed quite a sizable and visible segment of the population in and around Germany during Marr’s life.
Actually, at the time of Hitler's ascension to the chancellorship, only a couple of generations past Marr's coining of the phrase, the Jewish population of Germany was around 500,000 out of a total German population of around 60 million -- or less than 1%. It is a commonly held myth that the Jewish population was "strangling" the "Aryans"; in fact, Jews controlled no major industries or even major corporations, and while there were Jews in the Reichstag, they certainly were in no way close to a viable political faction -- in fact, between the Orthodox, Reform, etc. there were leanings toward communism, the Social Democrats, and other lesser fringe parties.
I hope everyone else around here is either learning something from this conversation, or at least bearing with us! ;D
Black Goliath was definitely disco-ing it with that 6-pack exposed! And yes, Nomad had quite a fine Elvis collar on his suit (I stand corrected -- after some research, I was mistaken about a high collar on Nomad's cape -- apologies!!)! And let's not forget the Winsome Wasp and her many changes of attire!!!
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 21, 2006 20:35:23 GMT -5
I hope everyone else around here is either learning something from this conversation, or at least bearing with us! ;D Well, I am! I knew that German conventional wisdom about the power Jews held within their country was greatly exaggerated...but (although I’d say half a million is a sizable group, despite the paucity in percentages) I did not know it was that greatly exaggerated. (But there’s a certain point at which I have to stop examining the specific scale of wrongs like the Nazis’. Even sending one person to the “death showers” is an atrocity...the actual quantities, while fairly quantifiable, remain staggering...) Actually, I had thought of BG in his original blue costume, which might have been a tad early for disco-mania, though perhaps not. On the other hand, now that I think about it, the crazy white (satin?) costume he wore when he assumed the “Giant-Man” name bespoke some hustlin’ funk! And Arcade? He was already a Johnny-come-lately, yet he’s still stuck in that bygone era!
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Post by dlw66 on May 22, 2006 7:36:57 GMT -5
Books from the era: Anyone have Origins of Marvel Comics, Son of Origins, etc.?
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Post by Bored Yesterday on May 22, 2006 8:21:09 GMT -5
Bring on the Bad Guys! --
the third in the series, was my introduction to much of the Marvel Universe, and I read it repeatedly for many years, until it just eventually fell apart.
I"ve still got a handful of the paperback size reprints. How about those? They came out in I think 1979 or so. They had 2 or 3 volumes of Spider-man, Captain America, 2 volumes of Hulk, F.F., I think Conan too. These really are like the original "essential" editions. They are technically, "trade paperback" bound, and they are in color. The only downer is that they are about 1/2 or 1/3 original published size.
Marvel's reprints of the classics, much like their Essential editions today, are part of the comic book cultural indocrtination that turns casual readers into lifelong readers. I think Bring on the Bad Guys had a lot to do with my appreciation of Marvel's Silver Age roots. Also, there were the Marvel "Fun Books" full of crossword puzzles, word finds, and other puzzles that taught me about many of the second tier characters I had never actually read about in a comic. It's the same techniques Sunday schools use to teach a large number of stories and characters to children. It works.
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Post by dlw66 on May 22, 2006 8:35:58 GMT -5
boredyesterday -- You write as if telling about my own childhood! I had many of those paperbacks you mention (file them under "now where did that book go to?"). I have Bring on the Bad Guys, and it's follow-up The Super-Hero Women. I also still have both volumes of The Mighty Marvel Fun Book.
Power Records, anyone?? I have the FF one, which is a reprint of an issue in the 120's (I think) that retells their origin. I also have the Spidey one which reprints the first Man-Wolf story from Amazing #126 (or 125, I forget).
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Post by Bored Yesterday on May 22, 2006 9:38:22 GMT -5
I used to have the Power Records book of Captain America and the Falcon. They were captured by Baron Zemo and suspended over a vat of -- "ADHESIVE X!" I think they were rescued by Redwing.
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Post by dlw66 on May 22, 2006 11:14:07 GMT -5
I used to have the record that went with Escape From the Planet of the Apes. I was a huge Apes fan as a youth.
Planet of the Apes, comics, Megos, Kiss, old Johnny Weismuller Tarzan flicks on Friday night television (which were preceded by the Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon serials)... wow, what a time to have been a kid!
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 22, 2006 15:47:05 GMT -5
I had one retelling the story of Frankenstein, from the initial issues of Marvel’s Frankenstein Monster series, which afterwards told new stories. At the time, though, I had no idea that such an ongoing series existed (however, it may have ended before I got the book & record), much less that it tied into the world of superheroes. (Sure, the names and pictures of Spider-Man, Captain America, and the like adorned the included ads for other Power Records products, but I assumed they existed in some different fictive universe, like the Planet of the Apes stories that were also being promoted.) It would be the mid-’80s before I started regularly reading superhero comics. For a long time, the Marvel–Power Records version would be my idea of the “definitive” Frankenstein story. I have since discovered the joys of the original novel—but I still have a soft spot for that comic.
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Post by dlw66 on May 23, 2006 7:40:09 GMT -5
Of Star Wars: A New Hope and Superman: The Movie... Which one was "the best movie you'd ever seen"?
For me it was Star Wars, then Superman, and that has only to do with chronology. I still have great memories from the first time I viewed either of them. Of course, in my "best picture" hierarchy, each was replaced by its sequel.
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Post by Shiryu on May 23, 2006 8:10:14 GMT -5
Oh, finally I can join in this topic since I watched both movies (ok, a few years later, but still ^^). I think of these two I enjoyed Superman a bit more, but only because it was self concluding rather than continuing into a trilogy. They were both great movies though.
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Post by dlw66 on May 23, 2006 11:54:55 GMT -5
Marvel Treasury Editions? I have a few, including the first Amazing Spider-Man. I would like to get the Avengers one, because it has oversized reprints of some early Vision stories and the Lady Liberators, too! I have the FF one that reprints the Galactus story with his herald Gabriel. It looks great in the large-size format!
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Post by Bored Yesterday on May 23, 2006 13:55:02 GMT -5
I have the FF one with Gabriel, Galactus, and the Silver Surfer. Good stories. I really liked the Treasury size. Is that about the size of the original artwork? Is that the basis of having oversized comics. I sort of like the premise of publishing artwork in its original size.
They are hell to store though. All my surviving Treasury mags are beat up pretty bad. I remember hauling them around and reading them in the backseat of my parents' car. No wonder they're a little dinged.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 23, 2006 15:46:15 GMT -5
They are hell to store though. I keep mine in a short-length magazine box. Treasury is bigger than standard magazine size, but I have a system. Instead of positioning them in the usual way (facing forward), I turn them so that they are resting on a lateral edge and facing the right “wall” of the box. They fit quite well.
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Post by dlw66 on May 24, 2006 7:40:16 GMT -5
I have a shelving unit in my comic room that, when the contractor designed it, was made large enough to house the treasuries standing up. They're still roughed up from being well-loved those many years ago, but hopefully further deterioration has been delayed somewhat.
Not sure if any of you are regular readers of TwoMorrows publishing's Back Issue magazine, but there's a short article in this month's issue (www.twomorrows.com) on the Spider-Mobile!!
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Post by dlw66 on May 24, 2006 8:43:43 GMT -5
Of Wonder Man's 70's duds: The green original outfit, the Bride of Ultron era multi-colored get-up, or (as the Beast called them) the civvies?
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Post by bobc on May 24, 2006 17:07:07 GMT -5
Holy crap--I totally forgot about "Bring on the Bad Guys" and those other books! I guess they were the precursors to graphic novels
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Post by dlw66 on May 24, 2006 18:57:23 GMT -5
Probably more accurately precursors to the trade paperbacks of today. And do you remember the cover price on those 1-inch thick tomes?? $6.95. That's it...
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Post by bobc on May 25, 2006 16:12:30 GMT -5
oh God--I remember thinking that was a lot of money at the time! I was a po' little kiddo cleaning out horse stalls for money. Maybe that explains why my posts are so crappy.
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