Know the classics, 129-135

[dlw66]

Even those of you who don't have access to these issues (which also include Giant-Size Avengers #'s 2-4) should have access to the Celestial Madonna in trade paperback form.

What more could you ask for?? Arguably the greatest Avengers villain -- Kang, up against Thor and Iron Man, along with Hawkeye, Vision, Wanda, Mantis, and the Swordsman. Vietnam references, a battle in limbo against the Legion of the Unliving (the original Baron Zemo, Frankenstein's Monster, the original Human Torch, the Ghost, and Wonder Man!), and the origin of the Vision. Support along the way from Agatha Harkness, Immortus, Rama-tut, the Crimson Dynamo, the Titanium Man, the Radioactive Man, a cool cat called the Slasher, Libra, the Mad Thinker, and Ultron. Whoo-boy!!

Comments?

[Bored Yesterday]

Had to go home and reference these issues to make sure I didn't stray too far off topic. Is it obvious that 30-year-old spoilers ensue below?




Yes my man, these are beauties. I have and have read all but Giant Size 3 and 4. We have fleshed out origins for the Vision, the origin of Mantis, a new beginning for the Scarlet Witch, the coming of Moondragon to the Avengers, the origin of the Kree race, the death of the Swordsman, a fleshing out of the Kang/Immortus/Rama Tut ties, but I can never keep track of how much of that is new at any point it is retold.

Favorite lines: when Kang remarks, after totally kicking the Avengers butts, even paralyzing Jarvis, he says something like, "If only I could meet a foe as ruthless as myself ..." then pretty soon he becomes a pawn to Immortus's game. Ha ha. I also like when Iron Man and Thor are hitting on Moondragon, and arguing over who gets to go on patrol with her -- or that might be a few issues later. I also like that Kang puts Thor, Iron Man, and Vision inside his killer robots as power sources. That's kind of hokey by modern standards, and was old fashioned probably even in 1975, but when someone as super sophisticated as Kang pulls something like that, it's kind of believable.

The Vietnam setting is neat to see, as historical context for the story. The Titanic Three is a pretty hilarious name for the super team of villains, but it's interesting how it's 3 villains who make up the force of law and order in North Vietnam. Interesting how Thor defends their right to call the shots against Stark's refusal, in light of Stark's Vietnam history. Overall, very entertaining characterizations within the team.

I'm dying to get Giant Size 3, for the Legion of the Unliving Battles. The portions of those battles that I have are very cool. I'm also dying for Giant Size 4 for the marriage of the Witch and Vision.

I like when Scarlet Witch brings the chair to life under the tutelage of Agatha Harkness -- Wanda fans really have to have that issue, 133 I think. It's like a second origin for her. It didn't make the cover, but it's an important chapter in her history -- and really -- if she hadn't been supercharged with mystical arts, we never would have had the inflation of her power which led us to the House of M.

The Slasher IS a cool cat. Covered with Razor Blades. Vision just turns dense and punches him out. Did Slasher ever return? I think he ended his career in issue 133 or so, in a Vietnamese prison, off panel. He was a jewel thief trying to frame the Avengers, which brought the Titanic Three into play. I'd like to see the Titanic Three return to fight the New Avengers. Come on -- that would be worth 3 bucks a month, even if they never got around to fighting.

Because now, the Titanic Three would be the super team for all of Vietnam.

[dlw66]

I really don't think there has been another Kang story that was as much fun as the Celestial Madonna arc. Perhaps the one a couple of years ago in Avengers Vol. III... Elsewhere there is a thread on here about "the triangle" -- well let me tell you, it was never more of an issue than in this story!

[dlw66]

To all of you who also post over in the New Avengers and Civil War threads:

Go to the cover gallery section of this website and click on the covers for Vol. I issues 131-140. This is what the Avengers are about. If you could get your hands on these 10 issues, you'd see what action combined with character development is all about.

[Bored Yesterday]

Bias against thought balloons and narrative captions is a bias against two of the biggest strengths of comic book storytelling.

You're right about this being a good Kang story. He really has a motivation here, besides destruciton of the Avengers, and it's neat to read. The idea of a Celestial Madonna -- whatever that is -- just has a resonance that communicates to the reader -- like it's obvious that whatever a Celestial Madonna is -- you want that on your side. Since I don't have Giant Size 3 and 4 -- I don't know whether it was ever really explained -- but if not -- it was a brilliant idea.

You know, speaking of -- I know Busiek just got awarded for giving greatness to the Avengers -- why not a full blown AVENGERS CREATORS HALL OF FAME? Again, I stray off topic, but you know, just thinking of the brilliance of the Celestial Madonna storyline made me think that Englehart should be in the Hall of Fame, then I realized that there is no such thing. And what better sponsor than the Avengers Assembled website?

[dlw66]

Bringing this back to the main page -- it is certainly relevant to much of what we've been doing around here since April of 2006, when the former last post was made. Re-read this, and find the thread on Avengers 141-143 for additional enjoyment.

[steed]

I've always thought reading the Avengers was like a roller coaster ride with all it's peaks and valleys. Strangely, when this story first came out, I thought it was a valley. Just recently, a friend gave me a trade paperback of the Celestial Maddonna story and I was surprised at how good it was. This story is actualy a pinnicle in the Avengers legend. It's funny how it ties in with the "Crossover" story, which I just reread last week and it truely one of the valleys.

Trivia on the Slasher character in the story. At the time one of the major razor companies, I think it was Gillette, did a series of comercials with "celebraties" hawking their razors and one of the spokesmen was Stan Lee. In the commercial he says he liked the razor so much that he was considerred making a character named "Razor Man". I always thought Slasher was a tribute to that commercial.

[dlw66]

And, curiously enough, issue #131 easily predates the Halloween and Friday the 13th film franchises, which spawned the term "slasher movies".

I do not recall those commercials! I'm sure if I'd seen them I would have remembered, as I was such a comics geek as a child that I'd have worshipped the ground Stan walked on.

The story is just so good in comparison to what is published today. The Celestial Madonna has so many layers and can be remembered fondly for several reasons. I truly thought of this "arc" when voting for Englehart for our Avengers Hall of Fame. While this tale fits nicely into the tpb format, the great thing was that it was not written for that purpose. Consequently, I think the creators had a lot of freedom to tell a good story, rather than having to focus on the page count. By the time you factor in the three GS issues, this truly was a mammoth, sweeping, epic.

[steed]

Getting back to the valley and peaks in the Avengers, I gotta say that I could put up with a bunch of "bad" Avengers or Spider-Man because I believed in my "heart of hearts" that something good was gonna happen in the next issue. I think that 's because the people creating this stuff 30 years ago really loved the characters as much as we do now. The relationship between Wanda and the Vision and all the turmoil it created wasn't a marketing scheme. It seemed to be a natural flow of character interaction. And it was written by people who loved the characters as much as we do.

I don't feel that way about Marvel anymore. Stan and Roy Thomas and all of the editors back then didn't treat the readers with such disdain. Even Jim Shooter treated us with respect, like we were all in this together.

Today, Joe Q and his group of thugs treat us like simpletons buying whatever they throw at us. And it's sad to lose the trust we had with Marvel.

[dlw66]

Steed, what you're saying is being dealt with (the proverbial "as we speak"!) over on the NA and Civil War boards. Isn't it amazing how the same themes keep popping up, no matter what thread we're in?? Too bad Marvel isn't paying attention.

Well, on a more positive note, I found Steve Englehart's website via an article in this month's Back Issue. I've included the link below. Let me tell you, once you go there, you'll be there awhile! Great stuff -- lots of memories!!!!

www.steveenglehart.com/index.html

[ozbot]

Hey, I'm as dyed in the wool an Avenger fan as anyone here, but my deep dark secret is that the Celestial Madonna story bored me to tears. I liked the Titanic Three stuff, which was mentioned above, and I liked the Legion of the Unliving stuff, which nobody mentioned, but the pages and pages of exposition were so disruptive to the flow of the story. Captions are one thing, but outright narration of something akin to a history book was BO-ring. It all fell in the realm of breaking the old adage: "show, don't tell"

[dlw66]

Your heresy double-disappoints me as a history teacher

[BigDuke]

Thank you Ozbot, I was beginning to think I was the only one who didn't really care for this story line. Maybe too much is lost reading it in DVD form instead of good old paper, or maybe I was not in the right mindset, but this story(and most of the surrounding stories) left me pretty flat. There was some good stuff in there, but I just didn't care about Mantis or Swordsman. They seemed to be characters forced into the Avengers because someone had this "big idea." And since they were the main story, and their story kept interrupting the other stuff I liked, the whole sequence bothered me. Maybe I need to get the trade and read it all together again.

[dlw66]

Having begun the story in #112, Mantis' intro., and having followed the Swordsman's career as a major Avengers pain-in-the-butt, I found not only the mystery surrounding Mantis, the backdrop of the Vietnam War, and the Swordsman's redemption reaching an exciting crescendo. I view this arc as an epic -- there are so many characters, major events (maybe for the time, but even if you look at it that way, they were major events), and as Englehart says on his website - the inclusion of the three Giant-Size issues made this a virtually bi-weekly event (the first of its kind).

And remember, reading it on DVD leaves three major chunks of the story missing (no GS issues!!).

[thew40]

I actually have this story in trade form and I agree that it's a classic. It's very epic and highly engaging.

~W~

[Tana Nile]

dlw66 said:

And remember, reading it on DVD leaves three major chunks of the story missing (no GS issues!!).

I think the GS issues are the best part - huge, important chunks of story, as well as some gorgeous Cockrum art. That's the one thing that ticks me off about the DVD - all the annuals are included but not the Giant-Size??

[dlw66]

Agreed. And, given that NA is so recent, it really could have been left off -- assuming space on the disk was a consideration. To leave off integral parts of an important story in favor of material that could easily be purchased on the newstand seems strange. Likewise, the omission of the Defenders issues that make the Avengers/Defenders War was a bad decision. This is one of the true strengths of the Essentials versions.

[ultron69]

Thank goodness for Essential Avengers, because I only had about half of this story in back issues!