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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 7, 2006 10:12:07 GMT -5
So, with the Thing, the Invisible Woman, and the Human Torch gone, will Mister Fantastic recruit a new FF? Here’s something I said earlier on the subject: I was recently thinking about the possibility of FF roster changes that would keep the team “in the family”. The fact is…it doesn’t seem to be all that big a family! Franklin and Valeria are a bit young to join…Nathaniel Richards is more foil than friend…Reed’s alleged half-sister Huntara is underdeveloped and mostly forgotten…the possibility that Kristoff might be Reed’s half-brother is even less developed and remembered…and Ben and the Storms don’t seem to have any cousins…so, the family team is quite closed. Too bad. Of course, now that three slots are open, maybe Reed could recruit three members of some other family! I suppose Crystal/Pietro/Wanda would not be available…Bruce/Jen/John is probably out at the moment…well, he may find somebody. Or maybe (gasp)…Nathaniel/Tara/Kristoff after all! …I should have also considered Johnny’s ex-wife Lyja as a possible family member cum teammate. Anyone care to offer speculation as to the team’s new membership? Or do you think the team will cease to exist (temporarily), as it has in the past (e.g., in the 190s)? This morning I had a chilling thought: if Reed can create a roboclone of a god, why can’t he do the same with his absent teammates…?
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 7, 2006 15:54:05 GMT -5
I have a feeling that in the end Reed will quit Iron Man's side too (he seemed dubious after the chat with Peter), in which case at least 3 or the FF will reunite
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 7, 2006 16:20:29 GMT -5
I have a feeling that in the end Reed will quit Iron Man's side too (he seemed dubious after the chat with Peter), in which case at least 3 or the FF will reunite Hmm…the FF taking a play from the X-Men’s book, as a team of outlaws? We’ve had tastes of that before (as when they were victims of Skrull impersonation waaaaay back in #2, and more recently when they assumed control of Latveria in the “Authoritative Action” storyline during the Waid–Ringo run), but it could be interesting, at least for a short time. I think, though, that if Reed were to turn, he might stay on as a saboteur/spy for as long as possible. And he’d have to think of something to do with Franklin and Valeria once he went underground (maybe send them to the Inhuman Royal Family, who are also on the outs with the US administration). A little while back, the FF lettercol held a poll for most popular past replacement members—which suggests to me that maybe editorial was planning on adding some replacements.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 7, 2006 17:49:15 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure it's Sue and Johnny who form the new FF. I heard somewhere (don't quote me on this) that there were two old members, two new, which pretty much rules out Ben and Reed.
I've generally heard the Black Panther and Storm mentioned for this, but I'm honestly not sure- I can't wait. The FF, in the right hands, are where they belong at the very TOP of the Marvel Universe, they're at it's core- Hell, they've outlasted the Avengers created before, destroyed after) and with a (fairly) consistent roster to boot!
I have some high hopes for the FF moving into 2007! Now let's just hope Mr McDuffie does a good job!
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 13, 2006 8:24:14 GMT -5
Now we find out the 2 new ones are... Spider-Man and Wolverine
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Post by imperiusrex on Oct 13, 2006 10:27:10 GMT -5
Now we find out the 2 new ones are... Spider-Man and Wolverine Don't give Quesada any ideas!!!!!!!!! But that is funny...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 13, 2006 10:52:37 GMT -5
Now we find out the 2 new ones are... Spider-Man and Wolverine Don'tr be ridiculous! ...Both have already been members in the past
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 13, 2006 20:13:02 GMT -5
Here’s some upcoming FF roster information, presented somewhat indirectly. The latest installment of “New Joe Fridays” at Newsarama has some select solicitation information for January, including:The accompanying cover image shows a traditional Four lineup in battle against Black Bolt. Hmm…
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 14, 2006 0:41:50 GMT -5
So the Inhumans are now terrorists.... F*** Marvel...!!! Or rather, F*** the fictional terrorist who sits at the ebon throne of the House of Idiots...!!! Respectfully submited, of course.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 14, 2006 5:30:25 GMT -5
So the Inhumans are now terrorists.... I don’t read too much into it. Terrorists are in the eye of the beholder, as are enemy combatants, weapons of mass destruction, etc.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 14, 2006 10:30:56 GMT -5
I am very fond of asking my students why Jews who fought with Polish or Russian rebels in WWII were "partisans" and why Iraquis seeking to remove the US/Brits from Iraq are "insurgents"? An issue of semantics?
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 14, 2006 15:08:43 GMT -5
I would submit , trying to take emotion & partisanship from the issue (Yeah, right! Good luck with that approach, eh...?), that you could define as terrorists as people with little or no regards about harming innocent bystanders, women & children and, in general, non-combatant civilians... But I guess I'm being naive about it, for I know that most guerrillas had blurred continuosly that line, not to mention that, by that strict definition, almost ALL armies of the world, at any given war, have often behaved in that way. E.g., regarding our own USA: many of the actions of the Vietnam War, the bombing of Dresden... the case could be construed, under a strict humanistic definition, that even dropping the atomic bombs over Hiroshima & Nagasaki constituted an act of terror & a crime against Humanity. I guess the only 100 % true statement we could extract from these considerations is the cliched "War is hell."
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 14, 2006 17:52:58 GMT -5
Moving back onto topic, I’ll comment on the notion of the Black Panther and Storm joining the Invisible Woman and the Human Torch in the FF. It’s interesting. (Aside from the nuisance of having a member whose codename also happens to be the family name of two of her teammates.) It serves the family tradition of the Fantastic Four—albeit with two separate families—and of course, the Black Panther is a longtime friend of the team. He debuted in their series under the auspices of Lee and Kirby, and so he has quite the FF pedigree. His is a name that would naturally come up when one considers hypothetical replacement members. In terms of continuity, it might make sense. December’s solicitations tell us that as of BP #23, T’Challa and Ororo choose to “get involved” with the Civil War. (The solicitations don’t say which side they’re on, however.) Also, a careful reading of Sue’s goodbye letter in CW #4 shows that Sue doesn’t specifically state she and Johnny are quitting the FF. Technically, she and Johnny might still be members; as two thirds of the membership, they may be entitled to count Reed out and induct their own members. Even if not—well, they being outlaws and rebels, one shouldn’t be surprised if they don’t pay attention to the finer points of team rules. (We might even end up with two Fantastic quartets.) The addition of T’Challa and Ororo might also make sense in terms of the creative team. Such a move would raise the level of visibility and importance of black characters in the Marvel Universe; incoming FF writer Dwayne McDuffie, himself African-American, may enjoy the opportunity, which recalls his involvement in the creation of the Milestone imprint (published by DC in the ’90s). For that matter, the Black Panther’s membership can help his eponymous series—or keep his name in circulation should his series end. One problem for a team thus composed is its dearth of that perhaps most classic of superhuman assets, super-strength—which traditionally the FF has had in spades. Still, it might be interesting to see how the new FF would work without it. Actually, Sue’s force fields can simulate super-strength. On her own, Ororo isn’t a natural pick for an FF team; she makes sense as a prospective member as T’Challa’s wife, but Ororo herself has not had strong FF ties, though she has had encounters with the team before (sometimes friendly, sometimes adversarial). But I suppose the difficulty of her fitting in with her husband’s old friends could make for interesting team dynamics. Her weather powers somewhat recall the “elemental” powers of Crystal, the FF’s first replacement member. She’s a very experienced and capable superheroine. She’d also represent a couple of significant Marvel Universe firsts: the first mutant and first X-Man (X-Woman, whatever) to belong to the Fantastic Four. Ever since the T’Challa–Ororo nuptials were announced, it’s been speculated whether she would become an Avenger or he would join the X-Men. Joining the FF doesn’t settle the question, but if this power couple joins the FF and then later joins one of their traditional teams, then one of the spouses could be the first person to ever take part in all of Marvel’s “Big Three” superhero teams. (I discount Wolverine’s membership in the so-called “new Fantastic Four”…) I have no opinion as to whether we really will see a Sue–Johnny–T’Challa–Ororo team, but…it could be a nice change for a while.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 15, 2006 17:41:33 GMT -5
December’s solicitations tell us that as of BP #23, T’Challa and Ororo choose to “get involved” with the Civil War. (The solicitations don’t say which side they’re on, however.) Marvel’s released partial January solicitation information, focusing on Civil War offerings. (The full January slate will likely be revealed later this week.) Here’s the description for Black Panther #24:The accompanying cover image shows the Royal Couple standing with Cap, Sue, the Falcon, and Tigra. Since they’re choosing the same side as Sue and Johnny, T’Challa and Ororo could be forming a new Fantastic Four with them—or on the other hand, the cover image does look like a new (New) Avengers lineup…but we’ll see.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 16, 2006 11:52:58 GMT -5
Moving back onto topic, I?ll comment on the notion of the Black Panther and Storm joining the Invisible Woman and the Human Torch in the FF. It?s interesting. (Aside from the nuisance of having a member whose codename also happens to be the family name of two of her teammates.) It serves the family tradition of the Fantastic Four?albeit with two separate families?and of course, the Black Panther is a longtime friend of the team. He debuted in their series under the auspices of Lee and Kirby, and so he has quite the FF pedigree. His is a name that would naturally come up when one considers hypothetical replacement members. In terms of continuity, it might make sense. December?s solicitations tell us that as of BP #23, T?Challa and Ororo choose to ?get involved? with the Civil War. (The solicitations don?t say which side they?re on, however.) Also, a careful reading of Sue?s goodbye letter in CW #4 shows that Sue doesn?t specifically state she and Johnny are quitting the FF. Technically, she and Johnny might still be members; as two thirds of the membership, they may be entitled to count Reed out and induct their own members. Even if not?well, they being outlaws and rebels, one shouldn?t be surprised if they don?t pay attention to the finer points of team rules. (We might even end up with two Fantastic quartets.) The addition of T?Challa and Ororo might also make sense in terms of the creative team. Such a move would raise the level of visibility and importance of black characters in the Marvel Universe; incoming FF writer Dwayne McDuffie, himself African-American, may enjoy the opportunity, which recalls his involvement in the creation of the Milestone imprint (published by DC in the ?90s). For that matter, the Black Panther?s membership can help his eponymous series?or keep his name in circulation should his series end. One problem for a team thus composed is its dearth of that perhaps most classic of superhuman assets, super-strength?which traditionally the FF has had in spades. Still, it might be interesting to see how the new FF would work without it. Actually, Sue?s force fields can simulate super-strength. On her own, Ororo isn?t a natural pick for an FF team; she makes sense as a prospective member as T?Challa?s wife, but Ororo herself has not had strong FF ties, though she has had encounters with the team before (sometimes friendly, sometimes adversarial). But I suppose the difficulty of her fitting in with her husband?s old friends could make for interesting team dynamics. Her weather powers somewhat recall the ?elemental? powers of Crystal, the FF?s first replacement member. She?s a very experienced and capable superheroine. She?d also represent a couple of significant Marvel Universe firsts: the first mutant and first X-Man (X-Woman, whatever) to belong to the Fantastic Four. Ever since the T?Challa?Ororo nuptials were announced, it?s been speculated whether she would become an Avenger or he would join the X-Men. Joining the FF doesn?t settle the question, but if this power couple joins the FF and then later joins one of their traditional teams, then one of the spouses could be the first person to ever take part in all of Marvel?s ?Big Three? superhero teams. (I discount Wolverine?s membership in the so-called ?new Fantastic Four??) I have no opinion as to whether we really will see a Sue?Johnny?T?Challa?Ororo team, but?it could be a nice change for a while. Very well thought out, interesting analysis. I am an opponent of the Panther/Storm dynamic myself. If asked why, I guess I'd cite a familiar example- having the Black Panther and Storm as half the Fantastic Four feels to me like having Echo, Wolverine etc in the Avengers. Just not natural! But that's me speaking as a longtime FF fan, so I'll certainly give a new line-up a try. Still, very well thought out. I karma you, sir!
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 16, 2006 12:08:03 GMT -5
But at least the Panther has a history with the FF...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 16, 2006 20:49:09 GMT -5
Aw, shucks! Who says this isn’t the Mostly Mellifluous Marvel Age of Anal-Retentive African-Addition Analysis?!!
BP does have FF “cred”, but I can’t blame anyone for thinking the prospect of Ororo on the roster a little off-kilter. Although she’s met them many times, she doesn’t have a strong relationship with the team. (My most vivid picture of her interaction with the FF comes from Fantastic Four vs. X-Men, in which the Torch, unaware that Storm has been de-powered, burns her in battle. Not a good building block for teammate relations!) And for a lot of Marvelites, the T’Challa–Ororo marriage seems contrived—so, using it to add Ororo to the FF may seem doubly contrived. The marriage hasn’t bothered me, partly because I don’t regularly read Black Panther, partly because I don’t have a lot of investment in Ororo’s character, partly because there is some (scant) history between the two characters, and partly because royal weddings are traditionally more a matter of convenience than of sentiment. But I think the contrivances could work in the hands of a capable writer, as the awkwardness could make good fodder for intrateam characterization.
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Post by Engage on Oct 17, 2006 13:27:39 GMT -5
I think if Marvel is serious about a Storm and Panther marriage lasting this would be a pretty good move. Although Storm has no history with the team that could make for an interesting read as she gets put through the paces and wouldn't be as random as a Wolverine sort of move with her new connection to the Black Panther. One of the problems with the FF is that sometimes keeping it in the family eliminates all the conflicts that go along with new members.
Its been so long since a change like this has happened to the FF with characters that aren't from their side of the MU. They might as well give it a try because like all replacement teams it wouldn't last too long and could give some interesting stories before the team reunites and we get to hear that family speech for the nine thousandth time.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 17, 2006 16:53:43 GMT -5
I think if Marvel is serious about a Storm and Panther marriage lasting this would be a pretty good move. Although Storm has no history with the team that could make for an interesting read as she gets put through the paces and wouldn't be as random as a Wolverine sort of move with her new connection to the Black Panther. [...]Its been so long since a change like this has happened to the FF with characters that aren't from their side of the MU. They might as well give it a try because like all replacement teams it wouldn't last too long and could give some interesting stories before the team reunites and we get to hear that family speech for the nine thousandth time. I enjoyed reading that analysis. Good thinking! Of course, it resembles some of mine but states the idea better and develops it further. You know, I’m starting to think some of us will be quite disappointed if the rumor proves false! One of the problems with the FF is that sometimes keeping it in the family eliminates all the conflicts that go along with new members. Well…sometimes keeping things in the family can be an explosive recipe! It depends on the family…
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 17, 2006 16:59:56 GMT -5
I think if Marvel is serious about a Storm and Panther marriage lasting this would be a pretty good move. Although Storm has no history with the team that could make for an interesting read as she gets put through the paces and wouldn't be as random as a Wolverine sort of move with her new connection to the Black Panther. [...]Its been so long since a change like this has happened to the FF with characters that aren't from their side of the MU. They might as well give it a try because like all replacement teams it wouldn't last too long and could give some interesting stories before the team reunites and we get to hear that family speech for the nine thousandth time. I enjoyed reading that analysis. Good thinking! Of course, it resembles some of mine but states the idea better and develops it further. You know, I’m starting to think some of us will be quite disappointed if the rumor proves false! Honestly- and really, please don't take this as in any way offensive- I completely and totally disagree with you. To be quite honest, I think my fellow Fantastic Four fans will take a Storm/Panther FF about as well as the Avengers fans took Echo and Wolverine on the Avengers. Maybe even worse...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 17, 2006 17:19:43 GMT -5
To be quite honest, I think my fellow Fantastic Four fans will take a Storm/Panther FF about as well as the Avengers fans took Echo and Wolverine on the Avengers. If such an FF is depicted with the same level of craftsmanship as that Avengers team, then we FF fans certainly will be displeased. I imagine the most popular “reformulated” FF roster would be the one with She-Hulk (another superheroine with little previous relationship to Reed, Sue, and Johnny) replacing the Thing. I wonder what people would have thought of that, before it came along (especially if it didn’t come in the midst of a widely acclaimed FF renaissance helmed by an already popular creator)? (I suppose I can dig out some back issues to at least see the early reactions in the lettercols…)
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 17, 2006 19:25:04 GMT -5
To be quite honest, I think my fellow Fantastic Four fans will take a Storm/Panther FF about as well as the Avengers fans took Echo and Wolverine on the Avengers. I get really tired of people implying (Or outright saying) that we Avengers fans who don't like Wolverine and company on the team just automatically don't like change. The changes in Avengers were badly written. If the changes in FF are badly written, we won't like them either, but if they are handled well - most of us are perfectly capable of loving them.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 17, 2006 21:20:57 GMT -5
Good point, spiderwasp. After all, from issue #3 to #4 to #16 and on and on, the Avengers has always been about change.
I would even say that I sometimes find the line-up changes easier to take than the creator changes.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Oct 19, 2006 6:54:51 GMT -5
Concerning Reed Richards going with Cap´s side - I really cannot think of this, he´s too strong enrooted in his authority belief (at least he´s mostly characterized that way). And I do think (you can call my comparison harebrained if you like): it has to be that way -- that´s exactly because he is Reed Richards and not Victor von Doom, who not only makes his own laws but does whatever he likes whenever he likes - always.
Another point I believe to have learned from this forum: on the long run readers (that is US readers) won´t accept any other FF team than the original one. So, sooner or later Marvel has to think of a way to bury the hatchet.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 19, 2006 16:51:47 GMT -5
Another point I believe to have learned from this forum: on the long run readers (that is US readers) won´t accept any other FF team than the original one. So, sooner or later Marvel has to think of a way to bury the hatchet. Yeah, it’s fun to switch the roster around every once in a while, but I tend to think of the founding members as the members. And that’s quite a switch, considering that, when I started reading FF, She-Hulk was serving as the Thing’s replacement, and I was perfectly satisfied with that line-up. Then the classic team re-formed, but before long Reed and Sue left and were replaced by Crystal and Shary. So, it was quite a while before I was able to read a lot of stories with the original line-up (back issues and reprints did help out, though). If Marvel time flowed a lot more like real time, I think I could accept the evolution of the FF’s membership as a multigenerational family ( cf. Astro City’s First Family or the Nobles of Noble Causes). But at the rate the Marvel Universe has been going, I’ll be long dead before then—outside alternate-reality projects like the MC2 Fantastic Five. And there’s something attractive about the notion that the bonds between these specific four individuals are unique and lasting.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 19, 2006 17:03:56 GMT -5
Concerning Reed Richards going with Cap´s side - I really cannot think of this, he´s too strong enrooted in his authority belief (at least he´s mostly characterized that way). And I do think (you can call my comparison harebrained if you like): it has to be that way -- that´s exactly because he is Reed Richards and not Victor von Doom, who not only makes his own laws but does whatever he likes whenever he likes - always. I agree, but I want to throw in why I see Reed as being pro-reg. I think an enormous part of the reason Reed is acting the way he is is a story that ran a while back called 'Authoritive Action'. Basically, Reed openly defied the government and siezed control of Latveria after Doom was dead- the whole thing was because of his enormous love for his family and he became incredibly over-protective- actually pretending to push them away so that he could protect them. The end result? The Thing died. Now that must have had enormous psychological impact on Reed. YEs, he got Ben back- but he would surely be forever haunted by wondering what if he hadn't. What if he had obeyed the government, what if he hadn't been so over-protective of his family that he nearly ruined them? Throw into the mix that after he defied the government the FF spent YEARS rebuilding their family and regaining their money and prestige. Reed finally has it all back- does he want to lose it all again? I think that story was very much a turning point for Mr Fantastic, especially his psyche.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 21, 2006 23:03:07 GMT -5
I agree, but I want to throw in why I see Reed as being pro-reg. I think an enormous part of the reason Reed is acting the way he is is a story that ran a while back called 'Authoritive Action'. Basically, Reed openly defied the government and siezed control of Latveria after Doom was dead- the whole thing was because of his enormous love for his family and he became incredibly over-protective- actually pretending to push them away so that he could protect them. The end result? The Thing died. Now that must have had enormous psychological impact on Reed. YEs, he got Ben back- but he would surely be forever haunted by wondering what if he hadn't. What if he had obeyed the government, what if he hadn't been so over-protective of his family that he nearly ruined them? Throw into the mix that after he defied the government the FF spent YEARS rebuilding their family and regaining their money and prestige. Reed finally has it all back- does he want to lose it all again? I think that story was very much a turning point for Mr Fantastic, especially his psyche. Interesting analysis. One problem for the theory is that “Authoritative Action” ran in FF #503–508, and we’ve seen Reed openly defying the government as recently as #529. (Luckily for him, the situation got “undone” in #532.)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 22, 2006 3:31:53 GMT -5
I agree, but I want to throw in why I see Reed as being pro-reg. I think an enormous part of the reason Reed is acting the way he is is a story that ran a while back called 'Authoritive Action'. Basically, Reed openly defied the government and siezed control of Latveria after Doom was dead- the whole thing was because of his enormous love for his family and he became incredibly over-protective- actually pretending to push them away so that he could protect them. The end result? The Thing died. Now that must have had enormous psychological impact on Reed. YEs, he got Ben back- but he would surely be forever haunted by wondering what if he hadn't. What if he had obeyed the government, what if he hadn't been so over-protective of his family that he nearly ruined them? Throw into the mix that after he defied the government the FF spent YEARS rebuilding their family and regaining their money and prestige. Reed finally has it all back- does he want to lose it all again? I think that story was very much a turning point for Mr Fantastic, especially his psyche. Interesting analysis. One problem for the theory is that “Authoritative Action” ran in FF #503?508, and we?ve seen Reed openly defying the government as recently as #529. (Luckily for him, the situation got ?undone? in #532.) Indeed, but let's not forget that that was for his family. Now in Civil War we're seeing the FF torn apart due to the government's actions, but Reed thinks the government is in the right. On the other hand, a DELIBERATE attempt by the government SOLELY FOCUSED on taking away his children could provoke him to oppose them- especially when the risks weren't nearly so high as they are now. PS: May I add, Phantom, that it's nice to discuss this with someone else who knows the FF so well- most people follow the title haphazardly at best and having this talk with someone who knows the history of Marvel's First Family so greatly is a true pleasure.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Oct 22, 2006 4:05:27 GMT -5
Indeed, but let's not forget that that was for his family. Now in Civil War we're seeing the FF torn apart due to the government's actions, but Reed thinks the government is in the right. On the other hand, a DELIBERATE attempt by the government SOLELY FOCUSED on taking away his children could provoke him to oppose them- especially when the risks weren't nearly so high as they are now. I think you’re thinking of the right issues (more or less) but the wrong story thread. I was not referring to the plot in which the City of New York was investigating the appropriateness of the Richardses’ family environment for their children. (If memory serves, Reed complied fully with the government in that case, which ended in #535. However, they together conducted an experiment which one might think would prejudice Reed against the wisdom of the government keeping a secret-identity roll…but perhaps we should not get into that here.) Rather, I was referring to Reed’s sabotage of the federal government’s attempt to empower people in the same manner in which the FF received their powers. It’s nice to provide that “service” and share in the pleasure.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 22, 2006 13:05:23 GMT -5
Yes, Night Phantom, I had totally forgotten about that storyline, and I agree with you! Since Reed's major objection was that those who were going to be empowered were going to be used as soldiers (I seem to recall -now!-), then it makes no sense for him to be now supportive of the government's efforts to control every american superhuman, only a short time after that storyline took place.
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