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Post by dlw66 on Nov 4, 2005 15:01:24 GMT -5
Who is your favorite Avenger and why?
I've always enjoyed the issues with Capt. America the most, as I think he is truly the face of the team. But my favorite character in terms of visuals, powers, and tenure on the team is probably the Vision. Issue #158 (I think) where he squares off against Wonder Man is a classic! And you really can't beat the 1st-appearance/origin from issues #57-58.
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Post by Van Plexico on Nov 4, 2005 17:25:39 GMT -5
I think it's pretty well established, among longtime visitors to the site, that my favorite is IRON MAN. But your mention of the Vision reminds me of a point that drives me crazy-- I would argue that no writer, since maybe Jim Shooter in the late 1970s, has really known what do do with the Vision, or gotten him "right." Kurt had a few good ideas with him, recently, but didn't get the chance to pursue them. More on this later.
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Post by Brett on Nov 4, 2005 21:03:09 GMT -5
Boy this is kind of like saying, which do you prefer: your hands or your feet? There are so many good characters (I can hardly wait for a definitive Avengers Encyclodepia) but my vote would have to be for Captain America. He stands for everything good and he is such a decent character. My second favorite is Hawkeye, because in many ways he is just a normal human being with exceptional skill, and those trick arrows and trick shots are just boss.
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 5, 2005 7:25:52 GMT -5
This is a difficult question to answer ! Considering everything, I think my favorite Avenger is Thor, I just love it when he enrages and makes the sky roar. More in general, I'm a big fan of the Big Three, and also like Vision and Hawkeye.
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Chris
Force Works-er
Posts: 15
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Post by Chris on Nov 5, 2005 10:24:04 GMT -5
Wow. There's a lot of Avengers to sift through, but above all else, I love the look, attitude, and character traits of good ol' Hawkeye. If only Bendis would remember Hawkeye's "no killing" rule if he does come back.
Chris
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curt
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 30
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Post by curt on Nov 5, 2005 20:26:09 GMT -5
Hawkeye...
No doubt or hesitation involved. cap, Thor and Shellhead are great, and god knows there are way more powerful members, but Hawkeye is and always was the heart of the team.
If you look back at those early issues- yes they were classic, however there was no real life until Cap's Kooky Quartet gathered, and amongst them it was Hawkeye that breathed life into the stagnant Avengers. Always at odds w/ Cap or Pietro, pining away for Wanda, he grew as a character over the years.
Truthfully, the only character that I think is MORE developed simply over the years is Nightwing, as he started as Robin, grew as a Titan and became a hero to be reckoned with in his own right.
Of course Hawkeye's dead now...
Curt
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Post by Shiryu on Nov 6, 2005 7:10:27 GMT -5
That's true, Clint is the heart of the group at least as much as Cap. Busiek gave him credit on it in the second issue of volume III, in Morgana's world. Hope he will come back soon (but not the way he was just before dying, sleeping with Jan and stuff).
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Post by asgardian on Nov 25, 2005 3:47:03 GMT -5
Thor. I loved the halcyon days of the 70's when Thor was cast as the cavalry. Pushed to the limit by Graviton, Ultron or Nefaria? Fear not - the God of Thunder has arrived. A close second is the Vision. I agree with Van Plexico here - an awesome character that has not been written well in years. I remember when the Vision was singlehandedly ploughing through the Squadron Supreme. Better days...
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Nov 25, 2005 14:00:57 GMT -5
Thor. I loved the halcyon days of the 70's when Thor was cast as the cavalry. Pushed to the limit by Graviton, Ultron or Nefaria? Fear not - the God of Thunder has arrived. A close second is the Vision. I agree with Van Plexico here - an awesome character that has not been written well in years. I remember when the Vision was singlehandedly ploughing through the Squadron Supreme. Better days... Man, so true. That was the most well handled vision of Thor (pardon the pun.) The best incorporation of Thor and, imo the definite way to do it. Good days indeed.
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Post by Van Plexico on Nov 25, 2005 19:38:25 GMT -5
Jim Shooter's great idea during his first run in the 1970s was to come up with a story-based mechanism for having Thor away from the team, while the Avengers were fighting lower-level villains (Grim Reaper; underwater guy from 172), but have the Collector "beam him down" when the Avengers needed him against the big hitters (Graviton, Ultron, Nefaria).
Absent that plot device, Thor made it hard on the writers-- you couldn't have "weaker" Avengers fighting a medium-level foe, and then Thor just cleans the guy's clock. Not much story tension there.
It was a great idea by Shooter.
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Post by asgardian on Nov 25, 2005 21:52:46 GMT -5
#172 - it was Tyrak.
Re: Thor - the early Annuals also show the problems writers had managing Thor's power levels.
In #7, Thanos had to use Sanctuary I Death Star-style to stop Thor.
In #8 Thor didn't arrive to fight Dr. Spectrum until the very end.
In #9 Thor again didn't confront Arsenal until the very end but totally trumped the robot.
In #10 hack Claremont had to create the ridiculous plot device of allowing Rogue to siphon off a portion of Thor's power and sideline him so Thor didn't singlehandedly mop the floor with the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. For that matter, Iron Man, Wonder Man or the Vision could have all done it themselves.
In #11, the very weak Nebulon story featured a device that again drained everyone's power.
In #12, the Wasp sent Thor to stop the asteroids sent from the Moon while she and the others Avengers battled the Inhumans. Thor would have beaten them all - especially given the fact that "Black Bolt" was an impostor.
And so it goes. I've also always wondered why when Ultron attacks the Avengers, Thor doesn't just create a portal and hurl Ultron through. Oh well.
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Post by dlw66 on Dec 2, 2005 23:56:34 GMT -5
Shift gears -- Least Favorite Avenger.
Dr. Druid. No competition.
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Post by imperiusrex on Dec 3, 2005 1:39:59 GMT -5
Hey my first post. Least fave avenger is easy. Undoubtedly Deathcry. Most pointless character ever. Fave is much harder. Thor and Cap were always battling it out for the number one spot. However, Hawkeye always made it so easy to root for him. Yet Hank Pym has taken so much junk from writers for the last few decades that I feel for the guy and I'm thrilled when something goes right for him. I'll pick Hank.
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Post by assembler on Feb 7, 2006 21:22:34 GMT -5
Sorry for ressurecting a thread thats been dead for a while now, but I just wanted to state that aside from the aforementioned choices of Captain America, Iron Man and Hawkeye, there are a trio of ladies who have earned my fandom despite my unfamiliarity with the majority of their history: Janet Van Dyne - Both as Wasp and later as Giant-Woman. I know alot of long time readers will probably disagree, but as a newer reader, I can honestly say that becoming Giant-Woman was a great idea, made her seem like a stronger and more significant hero. I'd also like to add that I was also happy when it seemed like Jan was going to hook up with Hawkeye. I never understood exactly WHY Jan was with a man who had blackened her eye, and it really peeves me that instead of going further into that story line, Bendis decided to tip over the chess board that was set up and plunk down his own (also wasted what I thought was an interesting idea involving Cap Britain's antagonism with Cap America, though I don't understand WHY Cap would ask a hero who was so eager to kill to join the Avengers). That being said, hopefully whoever takes the helm after Bendis can re-establish the Avengers proper and end the relationship for a while. I'd like to see Jan as her own woman and hero as opposed to a member of the Wasp/Yellowjacket duo... Carol Danvers - She was where Busiek's genius lay, in that this was a character I'd never even heard of, yet through the course of 4 issues (vol 3 4-7) she instantly became a fav and I couldn't wait to see her back on the horse and a full fledged Avenger again. Oh, how I wish the local comic store would get the Ms.Marvel series, but alas, unless it starts with "X" or "Spider", this shop seems reluctant to stock it She-Hulk - "It must be all the green..." Nuff said lol Now, for the character I LEAST like, while I could pick small time characters who just don't seem important enough (Triathlon, anyone?), I'm going to make two choices which may cause some disagreement from you all, but at least will make for some interesting discussion First off, Henry Pym, because I don't know why in the hell this guy is even an Avenger to start with. Strike one, he beat his ex-wife. Strike two, he created Ultron (accident or not, you'd think that it would've caused his team mates to have some disdain for him). Strike three, he's obviously mentally unstable. Granted, at the moment, he may be doing fine, but a person with a history of being a tad out of control should NOT, I repeat, NOT be trusted enough to be a on a team at the level of the Avengers. Quite frankly, I don't even now why he's still alive, I personally would have blown him up over Scott Lang (call me sentimental, but a hero with a child really shouldn't be offed. I feel bad for poor Cassie, even though I don't really know what she's like in standard continuity, but she endeared herself to me as Stinger in A-Next.) Second pick, The Scarlet Witch. Simply put, I think she was way to powerful, and depowering her was probably Bendis' only really good idea from what I've read of his work so far. Well, that and making Spider-Man an Avenger, I'd always wanted to see him as an official member.
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Post by Van Plexico on Feb 8, 2006 15:23:45 GMT -5
Some good stuff to talk about, here: Can't you just ask your shopowner to order it for you? Set up a subscription at the shop? (I'm being selfish, sure-- I want this series to SELL and to stay around for a long time, assuming it's at least decent!) :-) Um, because he helped to found the team in the first place? I know ol' Hank has issues, but he surely makes life much more interesting for the Avengers when he's around. This may well be true, but we certainly never saw much evidence of it, up until it became convenient to make her into this big "menace," for story purposes. When I think back to the big Avengers battles of yesteryear, Wanda is usually turning a lamppost into a noose to hold a minor villain, or something like that. With the noteable exception of her defeating Ultron (by being able to make his molecular rearranger malfunction), when has she ever been portrayed, by any Avengers writer, as one of the real "heavy hitters," along the lines of Thor, Iron Man, Wonder Man, Vizh, etc? Sure, when people talk about her powers, they always act like she is sooooo powerful. But the writers simply never demonstrate this in the stories. Bottom line, for me: As with the Vision, Wanda is one of the most underused and misused characters in the Marvel Universe. Writers simply never knew what to do with her (same with Vizh, same with Mar-Vell), and in each case, the easy answer became "Kill them or get rid of them." And never let it be said that Bendis wouldn't take the easy way out.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 9, 2006 10:22:00 GMT -5
Some interesting points. I think Hank has had many problems, and will likely have more in the future, but this is part of the Avengers' chemistry. In the "Ultron Unlimited" storyline, Busiek uses him to show that the Avengers are not just icons and superheroes, but human beings as well (well, most of them ), and having an hero with nervous breakdowns underlines the "superhero with superproblems" dicto by Stan Lee. Also, Hank is a world genius in many fields (can't believe the 2005 Avengers Handbook states his intelligence as "normal") and the Avengers have a long tradition of relying on science and technology as well as muscles and laser rays. Regarding Wanda, I mainly know her from the Volume 3 run, and, until Disassembled, thought she was a nicely balanced character. She is a fairly powerful witch, but some of her hexes need time to be casted, forcing her to be outside the action, or to limit herself. As for the lack of comics, guess it depends on where you live. In Europe it's nearly impossible to get some Marvel stuff and you could only order it from the States, which would cost a lot...
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Post by assembler on Feb 9, 2006 19:10:06 GMT -5
How often the simple solution eludes us ;D
Same can be said for the Incredible Hulk. I hope that will be sufficiant to make my point.
ok, I'll concede the point on this one. We really do only have the writers' words for. But I still can't say I'll miss her that much. Vision, on the other hand, I will miss. Even though he didn't really do anything special, I found him an interesting character with a great power.
I wouldn't dream of it. It stands to reason that if they man COULD successfully write the Avengers, he wouldn't have needed to replace...well, everything.
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Post by greggallinson on Feb 13, 2006 5:06:55 GMT -5
The Vision. To me, he epitomizes the Avengers because he learned how to be a person through them. Plus, unlike many other members, he had no direct ties to other Marvel heroes or titles (OK, OK...he was linked to the original Human Torch, but at the time Roy Thomas created the Vision, the original Human Torch was largely a dormant character).
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 22, 2006 13:15:44 GMT -5
Where do you guys stand on Quicksilver? While he's not my favorite character in the pantheon, his antagonism always added an important character element. But, does that get old for you? Does his constant whining after Wanda's safety detract from him?
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Post by Van Plexico on Feb 22, 2006 14:09:23 GMT -5
My girlfriend is convinced that he and Wanda were up to no good... which would explain why a couple of characters in YOUNG AVENGERS look the way they do, and have the powers they do... GAAAAAH!! And, as crazy as that sounds, certainly the ULTIMATES folks were not adverse to exploiting that idea-- just look at the cover of the ULTIMATES issue that first introduced Wanda and Pietro. They're hanging all over each other. Yeeeeesh!
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Post by Bored Yesterday on Feb 23, 2006 15:50:37 GMT -5
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Abe
New Avenger
Posts: 14
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Post by Abe on Jun 2, 2006 1:30:46 GMT -5
Beast, no question, imho for me.
-Abe
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Alaric
New Avenger
Fear the A!
Posts: 9
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Post by Alaric on Jun 2, 2006 8:21:56 GMT -5
My favorite Avenger is definitely Hawkeye- I like the fact that, as just a guy with a bow and arrows, basically, he's really in over his head, but because he has to push himself harder than the other Avengers just to be useful, he often ends up actually doing better than the others.
Second favorite- AS an Avenger- would be a several-way tie between Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch, the Vision, the Black Panther, the Black Widow, Tigra, Jocasta, the Beast, Hellcat, and maybe Rick Jones (honorary Avenger). Thor, Henry Pym, the Wasp, and Scott Lang would also be pretty far up there...
Least favorite Avenger, AS an Avenger, would be Wolverine. I was a big Wolvie fan years ago, but he never should have been made an Avenger, in my oppinion. Every other Avenger I can think of could have worked as an Avenger, if handled correctly by the writer (which wasn't always done). In some cases, it wouldn't have been easy, but it could have been done...
My take on Wanda- Handled correctly, in my opinion, the Scarlet Witch is theoretically capable of defeating absolutely anyone- but one of the things that makes her interesting is that she's theoretically capable of being defeated BY absolutely anyone, too. I like characters who can in theory win against any oponent, but who aren't unbeatable, themselves, and Wanda is, to me, the ultimate example of this.
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Post by bobc on Jun 2, 2006 12:47:54 GMT -5
Gotta disagree, Alaric. Wanda is really powerful but she's also very vulnerable. The Scarlet Witch's achilles (sp) heel is that she needs time to concentrate AND she is very vulnerable to attack. These two aspects are a bad combination. A stealth attack can knock her out fast, so can a telepathic attack. In terms of sorcery skills, she is also third rate. Doctor Starnge would murder her in a heartbeat.
Van is right when he says no writer has ever known really what to do with the Scarlet Witch. No other Marvel character has been so all over the place, power wise.
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Post by sharkar on Jun 2, 2006 19:45:08 GMT -5
bobc, you're not disagreeing with Alaric at all... you're both saying the same thing, that Wanda is extremely powerful and exceedingly vulnerable (and may I add, you both said it a lot more eloquently than I just did. Great posts!).
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 2, 2006 22:42:35 GMT -5
My favorite character would have to be the Wasp. I like to see characters grow (No pun intended) and her character has grown and developed so much over the years. I also like that she is not one of the heavy hitters and yet has proved herself in many battles and as one of the teams best leaders. Least favorite would have to be Gilgamesh - You can tell a character isn't going to become too memorable when he is described from the get go as "The Forgotten One." It turns out that it was more like "The Forgettable One."
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Post by bobc on Jun 5, 2006 11:46:06 GMT -5
You're right, Shakar--that's what I get for skimming. I get a big fat F for reading comprehension--Sorry Alaric
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Post by Spider-Man on Jul 14, 2006 10:28:05 GMT -5
Iron Man becayuse of the attuide and the cool armor.
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Post by bobc on Jul 14, 2006 14:59:04 GMT -5
I can think of a time when Wanda was shown as a heavy hitter! When they fought Kang and she conjured up "a magical maelstrom so intense as to defy belief" where lava erupted on that macrobot, and then when she pulled the asteroid down to finish it off. Iron Man said "If that's what one night with Agatha Harkness taught you, I'd hate to see you in a week."
But yeah, overall, Wanda never has been on a level with Thor or Iron Man. This was a huge problem I had with Bendis' New Avengers--and I really hate that younger readers seem to think that just because Bendis says something, it's so. This is not the Ultimate universe, nor is it an issue of "What If."
You'd think that after two years of nothing happening in NA, Bendis could have built up the Scarlet Witch thing over an issue or three.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 14, 2006 15:21:01 GMT -5
No votes out there for the Black Panther? He's had some cool moments through the years, particularly when he showed up to kick Graviton's butt in #159!
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