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Post by thew40 on Oct 13, 2007 22:28:54 GMT -5
It's not uncommon to see old b-level villians appear again when in their last appearance, they were either killed off off-handedly or in a coma or in prison or something like that.
~W~
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 13, 2007 22:59:39 GMT -5
It seems unlikely Nitro would be there. Last I heard he's enjoying Atlantean hospitality. That's the Ghost Rider villain Blackout, not Nitro. Also to be fair in regards to some of the odd choices Bendis has made in his villains selection, that happens a lot in comics. Over at DC Black Adam, Zoom and Bizzaro were all members of Society, despite the fact their personalities would never allow them to join such groups. Also Joker was once a member of the Injustice gang. The having dead people on is weird though. Often having Luthor and Joker and other together was done as having the heroes face off against their main rivals or against an opposing and equal force. That's been the pattern for groups like the Masters of Evil and Frightful Four and everyone in between, so that I don't have a problem with. far less likely is a team up between Mandarin and Rocket Racer where Rocket Racer is giving the orders. I just don't see many of these bigger more powerful villains who've never had any problems nearly taking over the world all by themselves needing the Hood to organize them. In fact most would be conquerors are more likely to sabotage a group like that because they wouldn't be in charge. Anyway, rather than have an interesting mix of villains who need to band together and would have a common reason through history -guys like Sandman and Absorbing Man and Whirlwind- for example who seem to have great power but limited vision and would need a figurehead, Bendis just throws random masks together. And on another point, yes villains often return from the dead and other seemingly bad situations. Time was when the story would then explain just how that happened. Cutthroat's been walking around for a while with no explanation. One panel is all it would take. bendis would just have to cut some scintillating dialogue and have someone say "crossbones was bragging how he killed you..." "mother night faked it. I was supposed to help her escape the red skull, but I didn't want anything else to do with freaky chick. Her pop's a hardcore Nazi and I got Jewish friends, man." Something that he could play with and add some dimension to his characters. But instead we get "it happens-it's the editor's fault-who cares?" I just think that's poor storytelling to have characters and not use them to their fullest.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Oct 14, 2007 3:44:46 GMT -5
He's right about those guys though, BB. Zoom isn't going to team up with super villains, equal and opposing force or no. He sees himself as a hero, someone who must help the Flash by letting him experience tragedy. It was wildly out of character for him to join a group who have "Super-villains" in the name.
But then, Zoom's been diluted to nothing by now where once he was massive.
Black Adam was a bit more forgivable in context, though not much.
And incidentally, for what it's worth, Nitro is no longer in Atlantean custody.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 14, 2007 8:41:07 GMT -5
He's right about those guys though, BB. Zoom isn't going to team up with super villains, equal and opposing force or no. He sees himself as a hero, someone who must help the Flash by letting him experience tragedy. It was wildly out of character for him to join a group who have "Super-villains" in the name. But then, Zoom's been diluted to nothing by now where once he was massive. Black Adam was a bit more forgivable in context, though not much. And incidentally, for what it's worth, Nitro is no longer in Atlantean custody. he may be right in the singular about the new Zoom, but that's as much due to the change in the character than anything else. Black Adam seems to have changed much in the last three years as well. However these characters originally were villains who had a purpose of villainy. And they made sense previously in conjunction with other villains. I can't see at any point why many heavyweights would follow a relative newbie who isn't that impressive. I mean The Hood beat up Tigra. She's a tough out for the regular guy, but some of these villains have beaten Iron Man and the entirety of SHIELD. Dr. Demonicus had the entire West Coast Avengers whipped three or four times. Why would he be impressed by this guy? How about some of that famous characterization that Bendis is supposedly known for where he just explains why these guys need the Hood? Isn't that what a good storyteller does? Flesh out a character?
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Post by thew40 on Oct 14, 2007 9:10:25 GMT -5
How about some of that famous characterization that Bendis is supposedly known for where he just explains why these guys need the Hood? Isn't that what a good storyteller does? Flesh out a character? The Hood's story was told mainly in his mini-series and (I believe) "Beyond!" -- however, I'm hoping for more focus on him. As far as why these other villians need him, it's probably the fact 1) that every state has an organized, super-hero team and 2) that the super-heroes are fighting each other, distracting themselves from the villians. He's helping them take advantage of the chaos by organizing them. ~W~
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Post by uberwolf on Oct 14, 2007 9:54:08 GMT -5
As far as why these other villians need him, it's probably the fact 1) that every state has an organized, super-hero team and 2) that the super-heroes are fighting each other, distracting themselves from the villians. He's helping them take advantage of the chaos by organizing them. ~W~ Still hard to buy that. Some of these guys are world busters. Why would someone who's in the world domination game with an ego to match follow some unkown with pathetic powers in comparison? So he ambushes a low level hero and slaps her silly. That's not a reason showing how they need him. If BENDIS! would take the time to explain the Hood has untold information resources that would allow them to get personal data on the initiative heroes, that would make sense. Not just a random act of violence. Sure that might impress someone like Jigsaw, but the Controller? Dr. Demonicus? I think not.
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Post by uberwolf on Oct 14, 2007 9:55:57 GMT -5
By the way W, what is the Hood's story? I've never heard of him till now. Yeah I could just wiki but I prefer peoples input.
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Post by bendisbites on Oct 14, 2007 10:15:54 GMT -5
How about some of that famous characterization that Bendis is supposedly known for where he just explains why these guys need the Hood? Isn't that what a good storyteller does? Flesh out a character? The Hood's story was told mainly in his mini-series and (I believe) "Beyond!" -- however, I'm hoping for more focus on him. As far as why these other villians need him, it's probably the fact 1) that every state has an organized, super-hero team and 2) that the super-heroes are fighting each other, distracting themselves from the villians. He's helping them take advantage of the chaos by organizing them. ~W~ I was talking about the other villains in the story. I don't deny SOME of them could need assistance after the Initiative, even the world conqueror types, however Bendis hasn't shown it. That's poor storytelling. For example, why does Mentallo need him? Mentallo is a superior telepath. Superior. Took over the world's information pretty much in Cap/Iron Man annual. he doesn't need money. He can steal Warren Buffett's or Bill gates' mental information and figure out how to siphon three billion dollars if he wants in minutes. Why does he need the Hood? Plus he's a serious threat and could probably brain fry Hood in three seconds flat. This is the stuff Bendis doesn't give us. And this is the stuff that's important when you write these character driven pieces. I remember when Grant Morrison threw his Injustice League together and Mirror Master betrayed them because he got a better monetary offer from Batman. Given the characters, it made sense. Bendis just introduces an interesting concept and has no follow up. And we can keep bringing up other examples of people doing it, but that doesn't make Bendis doing it as well any less stupid, does it?
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Post by overlord on Oct 14, 2007 11:36:39 GMT -5
He's right about those guys though, BB. Zoom isn't going to team up with super villains, equal and opposing force or no. He sees himself as a hero, someone who must help the Flash by letting him experience tragedy. It was wildly out of character for him to join a group who have "Super-villains" in the name. But then, Zoom's been diluted to nothing by now where once he was massive. Black Adam was a bit more forgivable in context, though not much. And incidentally, for what it's worth, Nitro is no longer in Atlantean custody. he may be right in the singular about the new Zoom, but that's as much due to the change in the character than anything else. Black Adam seems to have changed much in the last three years as well. However these characters originally were villains who had a purpose of villainy. And they made sense previously in conjunction with other villains. I can't see at any point why many heavyweights would follow a relative newbie who isn't that impressive. I mean The Hood beat up Tigra. She's a tough out for the regular guy, but some of these villains have beaten Iron Man and the entirety of SHIELD. Dr. Demonicus had the entire West Coast Avengers whipped three or four times. Why would he be impressed by this guy? How about some of that famous characterization that Bendis is supposedly known for where he just explains why these guys need the Hood? Isn't that what a good storyteller does? Flesh out a character? DC did the exact same thing Bendis did, they changed Zoom character to fit the story. Did they ever explain how Zoom went from a wrapped fanboy to a thug for hire? If you are going to criticize bendis for doing that , you have to criticize everyone else for doing it to. They also had Black Manta and captain Nazi on the same team, how does a black guy and nazi being on the same team make any sense? Seems more like an industry problem, then a Bendis problem. Frankly the idea is good, but the execution is lacking. Count Nefaria should have done this, not the Hood. He has the power to make almost every street level villain respect him, he is intelligent and he is a crime lord. Plus they wouldn't have had to change Nefaria's character to make it work.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 14, 2007 12:46:26 GMT -5
Black Manta is actually black... I was always under the impression that he was a caucasian, a relative of the original Aquaman... But I'm not really sure, as my familiarity with most DC characters is sketchy at best... Speaking of Nefaria... anybody can tell me if he's been seen as of late in the MU...?
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Post by overlord on Oct 14, 2007 15:04:12 GMT -5
Black Manta is actually black... I was always under the impression that he was a caucasian, a relative of the original Aquaman... But I'm not really sure, as my familiarity with most DC characters is sketchy at best... Speaking of Nefaria... anybody can tell me if he's been seen as of late in the MU...? Yeah, Black Manta is black: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_MantaHe may mutated into a fish monster recently, but he was born a black man. Ocean Master is the guy you are thinking of, he is white and Aquaman's half brother: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_Master
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Post by Doctor Bong on Oct 14, 2007 17:50:45 GMT -5
Ah, ok...! Thanks for the info, overlord!
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Post by thew40 on Oct 14, 2007 20:48:17 GMT -5
This is the stuff Bendis doesn't give us. And this is the stuff that's important when you write these character driven pieces. I remember when Grant Morrison threw his Injustice League together and Mirror Master betrayed them because he got a better monetary offer from Batman. Given the characters, it made sense. Bendis just introduces an interesting concept and has no follow up. And we can keep bringing up other examples of people doing it, but that doesn't make Bendis doing it as well any less stupid, does it? You strike a good point, BB! And you've made me fantsize about Morrison writing "Avengers." It makes me swoon. ~W~
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Post by goldenfist on Oct 15, 2007 15:13:49 GMT -5
The Hood is going to take over as the new Kingpin of crime he even used Deathlock in New Avengers #35.
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Post by balok on Oct 19, 2007 11:44:36 GMT -5
That's the Ghost Rider villain Blackout, not Nitro. Ah. Thanks for the info.
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Post by goldenfist on Oct 19, 2007 12:06:52 GMT -5
I wonder why the Contrictor was with the villains while he is with the Initiative.
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Post by balok on Oct 19, 2007 13:59:12 GMT -5
I wonder why the Contrictor was with the villains while he is with the Initiative. Poor writing, poor art, or both.
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Post by overlord on Oct 19, 2007 21:18:51 GMT -5
I wonder why the Contrictor was with the villains while he is with the Initiative. It could ber squid, he and Constrictor have similar costumes or perhaps this story takes place later and Constrictor is a government spy.
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Post by goldenfist on Oct 24, 2007 20:39:12 GMT -5
I saw two members from the Wrecking Crew with the Hood last time I saw the Wrecking Crew they were fighting against Omega Flight.
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