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Post by balok on Apr 12, 2007 16:45:08 GMT -5
As far as the general public is concerned, it isn't their freedom thats being given up, its super people's freedoms, so I think it would take a lot of roteness to out weight the benefits that the Innitiative has provided them, considering most of the bad things aren't happening to the general public anymore. You might be right - but one must be wary of any society that trades the freedoms of a minority for the perceived good of a majority. The canonical example would be Nazi Germany.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 12, 2007 16:47:03 GMT -5
Doom, let me ask you straight out. Do you believe it is a good thing to sacrifice a given amount of freedom for an equal amount of safety? Well it depends. To say we should never ever give up any freedom for safety because it's the ultimate virtue sounds lovely and everything, but it's also ridiculous and completely insane and would allow 3 year olds to run around with sub machine guns. But I am a Gun Control proponent so yes, I do indeed believe it CAN be a good thing to sacrifice freedom for a given amount of safety. There are limits, and they have to be set out by the individual- and yes, unlike Balok I trust the people enough to elect a government which can set out those limits.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 17:26:18 GMT -5
sad to say, I am not familiar with the electoral process in Ireland.
However, here it is quite common to elect a person and have that person not be who he said he was.
There is also an electoral apathy to contend with.
All that aside, don't trivialize the concept. Of course we don't want our 3 year olds running around with uzis, we like to start them off with handguns.
All kidding aside though. Giving up freedoms for security quickly becomes a slippery slope. Nazi Germany was secure. I know it's an extreme comparison but it demonstrates what happens when you start sacrificing freedoms.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 12, 2007 17:38:02 GMT -5
But here's the thing nutcase; of course things go wrong in electorate systems, of course people aren't who they say they are....
...but that doesn't matter because it's STILL the system we use. It's better than the alternatives, and until someone suggests a better mode of governing, it's what we do, and you don't just ignore chunks of it because they don't fit in with your view, you don't decide to reap the benefits of a democracy and then ignore the parts you don't like, like having to obey the law, when it suits you.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 17:40:41 GMT -5
OH, I agree with obeying the law. I just don't agree with the concept that ALL laws are right. Some need to be changed. But then we get back into the area that people would rather comfortably accept something they think is wrong, rather than spend the energy fighting for change.
So we're back to trading freedom for comfort and security. Which I still maintain is dangerous.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 12, 2007 17:54:57 GMT -5
OH, I agree with obeying the law. I just don't agree with the concept that ALL laws are right. Some need to be changed. Absolutely. But they should be changed DEMOCRATICALLY, using the SYSTEM. We're in lockstep there. Revbellions against laws when they can easily be changed democratically is not right, no way. That doesn't justify revoution.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 17:58:05 GMT -5
but then by your argument, America would still be an English colony. Your crown loyalty is raising it's head here Doom.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 12, 2007 18:02:35 GMT -5
I have no crown loyalty. I'm in IRELAND for God's sake That logic doesn't fly. America, nor Ireland for that matter, could not have legally repealed the unfair laws, or gained independence democratically, etc, etc- there was no other resort. In the case of the SHRA, those methods were all still 100% available but Cap didn't even try to take them.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 12, 2007 18:10:40 GMT -5
but Doom, I guess this is where we part ways. As it was written, and as actions were going, I think the non-reg heroes felt that they HAD reached the point where they had no other alternative. When cap refused to hunt heroes,... before the act was even in place Hill ordered her men to take him down.. At that point he felt there was no more choice. Either way, debate on this topic is moot, because history is written by the victors. and we all know you're a royalist at heart
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 12, 2007 18:31:44 GMT -5
A Latverian royalist...!!!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 11:18:22 GMT -5
Nutcase, we were battling Brits long before your people knew Britain existed
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 13:20:37 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 14:09:42 GMT -5
The fact that you made an alliance with France and then ditched them the second you could is no concern of mine for now Anyway, back to the issue at hand, the enormous double standard in comparing Tony with other characters continues. Misleading your old friends with false hope that their leader, Captain America, is still alive is BLATANTLY EVIL, but no-one apparantly takes issue with causing an old friend to have a vision of a zombie version of said leader, who was also, as it happens said old friend's BEST FRIEND, and having that vision torment him. Tony was closer to Cap than anyone else present, tormenting him with a vision of zombie Cap- the New Avengers' supposed "friend" is at the very least AS despicable as luring them there with the pretence Cap was alive.
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Post by balok on Apr 13, 2007 15:31:24 GMT -5
but no-one apparantly takes issue with causing an old friend to have a vision of a zombie version of said leader, who was also, as it happens said old friend's BEST FRIEND, and having that vision torment him. Tony was closer to Cap than anyone else present, tormenting him with a vision of zombie Cap- the New Avengers' supposed "friend" is at the very least AS despicable as luring them there with the pretence Cap was alive. Where did this occur? I saw the Sentry afraid of the Void, Simon confronted by the Grim Reaper, and Carol facing off against the Brood. At least, in those pages. I doubt Tony would be afraid of Cap as a zombie - he'd more likely be afraid of the loss of his political power, or it becoming public knowledge how he won the Civil War, or alcoholism, or Obediah Stane, or... His friendship with Cap ended over the Civil War; if a zombie Cap appeared, that's poor writing (unlike the other choices, which were good ones.) Considering that Doctor Strange could have blasted them to atoms, or deposited them in any of a number of metaphysically hostile places, I'd say they got off light. Or, as Tony said, "That's how you win a dirty..." When you use vile tactics, expect vile tactics to be used against you.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 15:57:55 GMT -5
Er.... this is yet another example of you just picking things to whine about, Balok. You honestly think for a second Tony cares more about his politcal power (which he only wanted to benefit the superhuman community) than about his old friendship with Cap? Right there you just demonised Tony more than every civil war tie-in put together.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 16:05:34 GMT -5
Doom, where did you see any reference to a zombie cap?
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 13, 2007 16:11:26 GMT -5
Having actually read the issue, I felt the page where a decayed, battered Captain America lunges at Iron Man as he screams "NOOOOO!!!!!" would qualify as zombie Cap. ...Actually, on second thoughts it's entirely possible that's just how Lenil Yu draws Captain America
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 16:12:28 GMT -5
getting it tonight, sorry, I haven't seen it yet.
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Post by Van Plexico on Apr 13, 2007 17:30:39 GMT -5
Before my comment, a quick observation: It astounds me how, without Captain America among them, a team that includes both Spider-Man and Wolverine can come off looking like a bunch of third-stringers. Yeesh. And now for my comment on all the big "action" of this issue: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 The New Avengers escape the Mighty Avengers because Dr. Strange makes them invisible.Let me repeat that: The big action of this issue is that The New Avengers escape the Mighty Avengers because Dr. Strange makes them invisible.Wow. I guess that's why they pay Bendis the big bucks.(Maybe next issue they can escape by having Spidey throw a rock over behind Iron Man and yell, "What was that??" while the others run...)
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Post by balok on Apr 13, 2007 17:54:33 GMT -5
Invisible? Shouldn't Iron Man have been able to see them, at the very least? His armor's got dozens of imaging systems and scanners in it, and with extremis he can make new ones. Invisibility should fool Tony for about 0.2 seconds. The Sentry might even be able to see them; I'm unclear on the extent of his sensory abilities, if any.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 18:01:48 GMT -5
(Maybe next issue they can escape by having Spidey throw a rock over behind Iron Man and yell, "What was that??" while the others run...) I liked this issue, it has me looking forward to the next one. I guess I liked it more than recent because even though there were SOME ninjas, there didn't seem to be as many. That being said, Van that was just funny. But I think before doing that the Mighty Avengers are gonna knock on Strange's door and say "candygram"
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 13, 2007 19:25:45 GMT -5
Invisible? Shouldn't Iron Man have been able to see them, at the very least? His armor's got dozens of imaging systems and scanners in it, and with extremis he can make new ones. Invisibility should fool Tony for about 0.2 seconds. The Sentry might even be able to see them; I'm unclear on the extent of his sensory abilities, if any. Perhaps it's not just merely the bending the electromagnetic waves, but some mystical type of invisibility beyond IM's techonological means of detection..?
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Post by thew40 on Apr 13, 2007 20:55:43 GMT -5
Invisible? Shouldn't Iron Man have been able to see them, at the very least? His armor's got dozens of imaging systems and scanners in it, and with extremis he can make new ones. Invisibility should fool Tony for about 0.2 seconds. The Sentry might even be able to see them; I'm unclear on the extent of his sensory abilities, if any. Perhaps it's not just merely the bending the electromagnetic waves, but some mystical type of invisibility beyond IM's techonological means of detection..? That's the impression I got. The master of magic beats the master of tech. Sorry Van. I like the story-within-a-story, er, storytelling technique. Works rather well for this story. I hate the art, though. ~W~
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 13, 2007 21:02:03 GMT -5
Van, I didn't like the art either, but I like the art for your books, why don't you go take this guys job?
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Post by balok on Apr 13, 2007 21:23:51 GMT -5
Perhaps it's not just merely the bending the electromagnetic waves, but some mystical type of invisibility beyond IM's techonological means of detection..? Perhaps. It could be something like interfering with their ability to perceive the New Avengers (as Korvac did with Starfox so long ago), which is hard to beat without a counterspell. It also highlights the problems writing Doctor Strange: his powers are immense but their boundaries are fuzzy, meaning that writer can literally pull anything out of that hat - and that if he doesn't, fans will wonder why he's writing the character as less capable.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 14, 2007 4:02:39 GMT -5
Balok has a point, some oddities are raised. "I can teleport us to the jet but not to Japan!" "I can make us invisible... but not from Brother Voodoo!"
I swear to God, I think someone else put in Luke Cage and DOctor Strange's pupils on the big double page Mighty Avengers/New Avengers face off double page spread, because not only do they look wildly out of place but Lenil Yu basically never does pupils. In fact, that's what makes his Brother Voodoo look INCREDIBLY zombie.
I also question the use of flashback to explain how they got to Japan when I think we could all do with flashback to explain (i) How the team got together (ii) Why Doctor Freaking Strange is part of it.
But you know what, for all my whining I enjoyed this issue a fair amount. Yes there were plot holes and double standard and yes it's INCREDIBLY clear that Bendis prefers his "New" team to his "Mighty" one but it's a good story all the same. What we could really do with some clarity on is exactly who Iron Man wants to get the New Avengers "before" though, as in NA he just seems like a jerk but Mighty Avengers flat out said there were much deeper reasons. My only real regret with this issue is that I would assume sooner or later, we WILL get a full-scale brawl between the two Avengers teams, evgen if the NA do lose, and I think that we could save the double page Avengers face-off spreads until then seeing as they don't even fight after it this issue. Plus, while the cover doesn't stand up to close examination it is still the best Yu art of the issue (not saying too much) and it does look pretty cool as a giant chaotic, brawl. That cover would be best placed on an issue where it better reflected the contents.
8/10
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Post by balok on Apr 14, 2007 15:12:22 GMT -5
My guess would be that Doctor Strange is on the team for exactly the reason we saw: to keep the team out of the hoosegow. Unless Tony cares to curry favor with more villains (Doctor Doom or Baron Mordo) he's basically got nothing he can do to counter whatever Strange elects to unleash upon him. Without Strange, the New Avengers are significantly outclassed by the Mighty Avengers, with Strange they significantly outclass the Mighty Avengers (if Strange is properly written).
Correctly written, it is no more difficult for Strange to whisk them to Japan than anywhere else. He has travelled, with others in tow, farther than that on a single spell in the past. He has forgotten more about magic than Brother Voodoo will ever learn.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Apr 14, 2007 16:24:08 GMT -5
It also highlights the problems writing Doctor Strange: his powers are immense but their boundaries are fuzzy, meaning that writer can literally pull anything out of that hat Oddly, that is the end opposite of the one which I assumed the current writer pulls things out of.
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Post by balok on Apr 14, 2007 22:55:27 GMT -5
Okay, I thumbed through this at the comic store, but didn't read the whole issue (I won't do that unless I make the purchase).
I really, really don't like Yu's art. It makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
Can someone explain why Ms. Marvel was so upset when she and Iron Man were in some office with a blond guy and some other guy, neither of whom I could recognize? She wanted someone's hair glue to make them impotent, or something? She looked really whiny and petty in that scene, but maybe someone can explain why she was so upset.
Oh, and in case I haven't said it, I hate Yu's art. It really does look like someone drew the page while having a seizure.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 14, 2007 23:19:52 GMT -5
That was weird to me too, Balok. If the heroes can't fight the law physically anymore, using the law is just what they should do. It's almost like she wants to keep busting her old friends.
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