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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 1, 2007 0:27:07 GMT -5
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 1, 2007 1:47:12 GMT -5
OK, I read the preview pages, and Bendis manages to outdo his own low standards.
One would think that would be difficult given that she's DEAF. And her motivation is that she enjoys the fact that her enemies speculate that the person inside the suit is one of the renegade American supers? Wow -- powerful, resonant motivation there. Right up there with "with great power comes great responsibility." As I've said before, if he was a real pro he'd cut his losses and quietly drop the character, or at least the mansuit idea. Instead it appears that he is out to prove that it was a good idea, whether it is or isn't. With Bendis, as always, it's a matter of ego.
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Feb 2, 2007 8:50:28 GMT -5
Yu's art is pretty good, but I hate the way he draws eyes and mouths. His faces just look wrong, with the wrong parts over emphasized. In the Cage solo, it looked like the neighborhood was populated by zombies.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 2, 2007 19:43:00 GMT -5
One would think that would be difficult given that she's DEAF.I assumed the eavesdropping would be visual; she’s supposed to be a superlative lipreader. The way the story is written, that is literally one of her motives. But I assume it appears in the story only as Bendis’ personal winking insult to the audience (see my recent post about Joe Quesada’s similar behavior).
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 3, 2007 0:33:32 GMT -5
It's obvious that Bendis has not considered the difficulties in communication involved with deaf people. First, to lipread you have to be looking directly at a person, obviously. Second, think how difficult it would be in a social situation to not be aware that another person was talking to you from outside your direct vision. That would be obvious to everyone pretty quick. Third (and this is certainly not making fun) deaf people simply can't speak "normally." With training, a totally deaf person can communicate verbally, but the difference is quite obvious. So it's pretty silly that she could make light conversation and pass off as not deaf. This is just more of the same with her Avengers status in the first place, as it would be just impossible to communicate and operate in a team environment.
Yeah, I also took it as a snide insult. It doesn't surprise me.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 3, 2007 10:51:27 GMT -5
As many of us have observed, there don't seem to be all that many "kids" in the comics shops anymore -- at least not the 2-3 that I frequent. So, it is all the more insulting the way Bendis and Joe Q talk down to the readership. My guess is that they are dealing with, at the minimum an economically self-sufficient readership, and at the maximum a college-educated readership. Both ends of that spectrum require the mental faculties to get by in an ever-changing world. Who do they think they are fooling, that they can just sell this "lack of attention to detail" drivel?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 3, 2007 14:54:13 GMT -5
It's obvious that Bendis has not considered the difficulties in communication involved with deaf people. First, to lipread you have to be looking directly at a person, obviously. Second, think how difficult it would be in a social situation to not be aware that another person was talking to you from outside your direct vision. That would be obvious to everyone pretty quick. Third (and this is certainly not making fun) deaf people simply can't speak "normally." With training, a totally deaf person can communicate verbally, but the difference is quite obvious. So it's pretty silly that she could make light conversation and pass off as not deaf. I wouldn’t be surprised if Bendis hasn’t consider such issues, but I have. Your original statement on this topic was that Echo’s eavesdropping would be “difficult”; if there was supposed to be an implication that it was “impossible” or “largely useless”, I would still disagree. Echo’s superpower is, if I understand it correctly, the duplication and retention of skills that she witnesses. I’m willing to suspend my disbelief enough to accept she has such a power; having done so, I’m willing to accept that she may have quickly become the world’s greatest lipreader, by witnessing two or more very good lipreaders in action. Even so, I’m willing to concede she wouldn’t catch (or catch correctly) every word she tried to witness in other people’s conversations, but that’s true of eavesdroppers who hear, too: eavesdropping isn’t always perfect, but even so it can reap useful results. Your second and third points don’t relate to eavesdropping, since they imply an involvement which “eavesdropping” by definition excludes. But you are right in that your points describe abilities that Echo has been shown to have and that real-life persons who have been totally deaf from birth would not, at least not to the extent that Echo seems to have them. (I believe “totally deaf from birth” should be a correct description in Echo’s case; if not, please forgive the error.) Your second point is well taken, although, given her power, I’m willing to accept that Echo might be better than any one real-world deaf person at lipreading even under suboptimal situations, such as a poor angle or poor lighting, although such conditions would likely decrease her accuracy. Of course, I do assume that her lipreading has some stark limits, such as when the subject’s mouth is outside Echo’s field of vision, too far away to be seen well, or cloaked in total or near-total darkness. As for your third point, I assume Echo has witnessed many hearing and nonhearing people producing speech and can probably do so with great skill. Don’t take all this as a defense of the material in the preview overall. And don’t assume that I see no difficulties with the logic of her power and its depicted applications, whether in the linguistic realm or elsewhere. But where language is concerned, I think Echo’s issues are just a drop in the bucket in a world of aliens from outer space, Atlanteans, extradimensionals, time travelers, the late Doug Ramsey (Cypher) of the New Mutants, and the French speakers in recent issues of FF. As a holder of a college degree in linguistics, I’m constantly biting my tongue at the linguistic illogic of comic-book stories. All things considered, I’m willing to let Bendis’ depiction of Echo’s linguistic abilities (thus far) slide. I prefer my condemnations of Bendis to be for something really serious. Not impossible, but clearly there should be problems. Actually, her previous New Avengers storyline touched on this—she couldn’t tell what Spider-Man and Iron Man were saying under their masks. But of course there should be problems even with teammates whose costumes don’t interfere with lipreading, since traditionally Avengers find themselves in situations where they need to shout to each other immediately from wherever they happen to be at that moment. (But perhaps we shouldn’t expect much action in New Avengers…) In a comic-book world, though, maybe some generally adequate compensation is possible: a Stark-designed set of goggles that display a text representation of words being spoken—or, perhaps more likely in the upcoming status quo, a spell cast by Doctor Strange. And that might be a shame, really; for it could be more interesting to see a deaf superhero deal with being a deaf superhero than to see one turned more or less into a hearing superhero.
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 3, 2007 23:33:33 GMT -5
Actually there were times when Echo/Ronin did understand what someone said from behind a mask when she should not have -- for example, Iron Man on the Quinjet in #14. So Bendis isn't even being consistent on this.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 4, 2007 12:40:23 GMT -5
Actually there were times when Echo/Ronin did understand what someone said from behind a mask when she should not have -- for example, Iron Man on the Quinjet in #14. I suspect you’re thinking of #13 (I don’t believe there are any scenes with Ronin or a quinjet interior in #14). I looked at it quickly and didn’t see any evidence that Ronin understood anything Spider-Man or Iron Man said to her.
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Post by Engage on Feb 4, 2007 13:36:04 GMT -5
It's obvious that Bendis has not considered the difficulties in communication involved with deaf people. I think that in a universe where both the blind hero Daredevil and civilian Alica Masters have both been able to tell where someone is based on their heartbeat a deaf hero can get around without any difficulty. This is one of those areas where it doesn't have to make sense. She probably smelled what they were saying.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 4, 2007 14:17:05 GMT -5
She probably smelled what they were saying. I would agree the dialogue often stinks…
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 4, 2007 22:23:32 GMT -5
I suspect you’re thinking of #13 (I don’t believe there are any scenes with Ronin or a quinjet interior in #14). I looked at it quickly and didn’t see any evidence that Ronin understood anything Spider-Man or Iron Man said to her. You're right, it's #13. The panel in question is just after Cap gets blown out of the quinjet: Ronin tells IM "Go after him, I can fly this." Iron Man replies "It's not like a plane!" Ronin replies "Go!" Iron Man was both facing away and wearing his facemask, therefore Ronin should have been unaware what his response was, or if there even was a response. Clearly the second command to "Go" indicated that she heard his initial refusal, when in fact she should not have been able to hear or see it. RSC
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Feb 5, 2007 4:23:05 GMT -5
Just off the top of my head. Wasn't Ronin spying on the super ninjas? And didn't they have masks on?
"What do you have to report?" "One guy walked up to another, wiggled his head, then the other wiggled his head, and then they went their separate ways."
Or something like that.
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Tone-Loc
Reservist Avenger
R.I.P. (... for now)
Posts: 200
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Post by Tone-Loc on Feb 5, 2007 14:32:20 GMT -5
"Echo’s superpower is, if I understand it correctly, the duplication and retention of skills that she witnesses."
"As for your third point, I assume Echo has witnessed many hearing and nonhearing people producing speechand can probably do so with great skill."
As a comics fan, I am willing to suspend disbelief to a great degree. However, I don't think simply witnessing other hearing-impaired (or non-hearing impaired for that matter) speak would help much, except for maybe mouth movements, mouth shaping, tongue usage, etc...
If she has been totally deaf since birth, she simply can have no frame of reference for what speech sounds like to anyone with normal hearing. Therefore without the ability to hear someone talk, she would have no way to take advantage of her powers in order to mimic their speech.
As for the whole Quinjet scene with IM... perhaps she didn't hear him at all, but only noticed that he wasn't going after Cap yet. she either repeated herself due to the urgency of the situation, or inferred that he was opposed/reluctant for whatever reason. I don't see that as a very good example of her reading covered lips.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 6, 2007 22:30:24 GMT -5
Just off the top of my head. Wasn't Ronin spying on the super ninjas? And didn't they have masks on? "What do you have to report?" "One guy walked up to another, wiggled his head, then the other wiggled his head, and then they went their separate ways." Or something like that. Something like that. In #11, she reports, “I infiltrated the Yoshida fortress. Harada is there. With the Hand, yes. But they are again, it seems, in a partnership. The terrorists Hydra were also there.”
As a comics fan, I am willing to suspend disbelief to a great degree. However, I don't think simply witnessing other hearing-impaired (or non-hearing impaired for that matter) speak would help much, except for maybe mouth movements, mouth shaping, tongue usage, etc... Other than larynx usage and breathing—pretty much the voice itself—that would be just about everything. Granted, some of it might be difficult to witness. She’s got a crazy power, and its limits are, in my mind, a rather gray area. Although I did not make this clear earlier, it’s not my belief that Echo’s speech abilities, however developed they are, come from “simply” witnessing speech. I suspect she receives some training in at least some of the skills she acquires via her superpower (for instance, she’s mentioned having a sensei), and it’s my guess that her speech abilities are in part the result of training, even if her powers give her an edge. She could develop some idea, though not necessarily as complete an idea as hearing persons would ordinarily have. Even absent the comic-book possibilities of having the notion planted in her head psychically or mystically or technologically (I am not implying she’s had such advantages), she could do things like feel a hearing person’s larynx during speech to get a better sense of what’s going on. As good as hearing? No, I imagine not. I’m not sure it’s been established just how well she speaks. I haven’t read any of her initial Daredevil appearances, just her New Avengers appearances. As Ronin, she seems to speak well enough to fool people into not realizing she’s deaf. But maybe her voice does sound strange, and listeners attribute its quality to the mask or some other situation. Yeah, this is how I interpreted the scene also.
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Feb 7, 2007 7:01:29 GMT -5
They explained in Daredevil that she didn't have a speech problem because of her watching the movements of others. I bought it in the context of comic book science
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Feb 7, 2007 8:41:16 GMT -5
We accept a Norse God, a synthezoid, people turning into light waves, shrinking and growing and talking to bugs, and all manner of fantastical things. But a deaf hero talking and understanding others talking is beyond our realm of belief?
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Post by Black Knight on Feb 7, 2007 9:05:31 GMT -5
I think the problem to many is that it simple makes no sense, within the setting it is placed.
She is deaf. Check She can read lips. Check Notice how that procludes the ability to understanding others talk unless she is looking at them.
If you have ever meant a deaf person who reads lips, most of the time you have to stand right in front of them and talk at a moderately slow pace, some are very good at and you can talk normally.
So since she does not the super human power of eyes in the back of her head, yea it is a little hard to accept.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 7, 2007 9:19:21 GMT -5
We accept a Norse God, a synthezoid, people turning into light waves, shrinking and growing and talking to bugs, and all manner of fantastical things. But a deaf hero talking and understanding others talking is beyond our realm of belief? All of those things you cite are fantasy. Deafness and communication are real-world. So, yeah, it's poorly done and not believable in the context that we actually do have a context for understanding.
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Post by thew40 on Feb 7, 2007 23:16:30 GMT -5
I think the problem to many is that it simple makes no sense, within the setting it is placed. She is deaf. Check She can read lips. Check Notice how that procludes the ability to understanding others talk unless she is looking at them. If you have ever meant a deaf person who reads lips, most of the time you have to stand right in front of them and talk at a moderately slow pace, some are very good at and you can talk normally. So since she does not the super human power of eyes in the back of her head, yea it is a little hard to accept. If it's acceptable in an episode of Sienfeld, why can't it be acceptable here? ~W~
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Post by The Night Phantom on Feb 7, 2007 23:18:01 GMT -5
We accept a Norse God, a synthezoid, people turning into light waves, shrinking and growing and talking to bugs, and all manner of fantastical things. But a deaf hero talking and understanding others talking is beyond our realm of belief? All of those things you cite are fantasy. Deafness and communication are real-world. So, yeah, it's poorly done and not believable in the context that we actually do have a context for understanding. Yeah, but Echo’s amazing ability to obtain skills is fantasy. It’s like she’s got a HAL 9000 computer in her head. (Did you have trouble with HAL’s lipreading?) Supposedly Captain America has no superpowers in a quotidian practical sense, yet he manages to consistently do things on a level no real-world person could achieve. Well, it could be fun to continue the debate, but—speaking of the real world—I will be away from the Internet most of the time over the next week and a half or so. But I leave confident in the knowledge that Bendis ever remains a source of controversy! ;D
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Post by Black Knight on Feb 8, 2007 11:59:12 GMT -5
I think the problem to many is that it simple makes no sense, within the setting it is placed. She is deaf. Check She can read lips. Check Notice how that procludes the ability to understanding others talk unless she is looking at them. If you have ever meant a deaf person who reads lips, most of the time you have to stand right in front of them and talk at a moderately slow pace, some are very good at and you can talk normally. So since she does not the super human power of eyes in the back of her head, yea it is a little hard to accept. If it's acceptable in an episode of Sienfeld, why can't it be acceptable here? ~W~ I don't watch sienfeld, so I have zero point of reference for that. Also, if they had someone who could read lips with out seeing them, then I would find that inane as well.
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 8, 2007 20:24:31 GMT -5
I actually browsed the issue at the shop today and it's crap. Finally CW is out of the way, and Bendis focusses entirely on Ronin. Nothing whatsoever has changed. On the other hand, I'm perversely pleased to say that the art is terrible. This should peel some customers away from the title if it keeps up for long.
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Post by von Bek on Feb 9, 2007 12:35:44 GMT -5
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 9, 2007 12:53:17 GMT -5
I will assume that it is not real until I see it. If it is real, I think I will finally have reached my breaking point...
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Post by redstatecap on Feb 9, 2007 13:01:12 GMT -5
I browsed the issue at the shop and I can confirm that it's legit. Feel free to break.
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Post by dlw66 on Feb 9, 2007 13:04:15 GMT -5
For a very long time comics have been trying to break down what a superhero is. It was always more than just tight-fitting longjohns and cool powers. To be cliche, it meant "truth, justice, and the American way".
Now it means... everything it didn't used to mean.
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Post by von Bek on Feb 9, 2007 13:47:07 GMT -5
Funny thing is BENDIS! stated many times he didn´t like Hank Pym and thinks he should never be an Avenger again because he slapped his wife. So to BENDIS! slapping a woman is wrong, but kicking her in the vagi betweeen her legs with super strengh is OK...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Feb 9, 2007 13:58:50 GMT -5
Actually, shocking though this may sound, I enjoyed this more than many Avengers issues for a LONG time.
And yes it had it's colossal faults (Why exactly does Echo include the line "If you're reading this..." Should it not be more along the lines of "If you're reading this Matt, then congratulations on getting over the whole 'being blind' thing?" But yes, I enjoyed the issue.
Why, you may ask?
Because it's not the Avengers.
WHAAAAA? You may ask. What is Doom smoking!?
But it's not the Avengers.
And I can stop pretending. Due to the lack of actual Avengers on this team, I can tell myself that this is NOT the real time of Avengers- it's even less Avenger like than New Avengers. And this time, there's an alternative where I can say "The REAL Avengers are here- it has Black Widow, Wasp, Ms Marvel, Wonder Man, Iron Man- it's Avengers enough for me."
So I can pretend to myself that this loser NA team is the latest incarnation of the Defenders or whoever, but NOT the Avengers. And that frees me of my greatest problem with this book; that nit's supposed to be an Avengers story. As a consequence, I enjoy this.
Most of you despise NA for everything, but I've always made clear that I mostly dislike the characters, the threats etc which make it not a real Avengers book. Unlike you lot, I generally enjoyed the writing okay. So now I can happily ready my real avengers every month and my TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAM every month.
Never thought I'd say this but props to Bendis.
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Post by Black Knight on Feb 9, 2007 14:00:34 GMT -5
You know what is really sad, kids, on other boards, are screaming about how great that scene is.
This kids will think a peice of crap is great, as long as they are told Wovlerine or spider are buried in it and bendis signed it.
Oh well
I have to add one more thing. OH my god that art is awful.. What are they thinking.
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