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Post by redstatecap on Jan 16, 2007 10:43:23 GMT -5
So I had an idea in regards to having Wolverine on the team - as well as previous non or barely Avengers. With so many Avengers vets on the "Mighty" team (save Ares), perhaps for NA it's all in the title. Perhaps because it's called " New Avengers," it's purpose it bring in new Avengers members. Just a thought. As far as Wolverine joining, I'm a little uncertain. Bendis seemed to want to use him, but left him out of the one story that he should have been in - the beloved Hand story. That drove me crazy. Considering all the recent history Logan had with the Hand and the fact that this involved the Clan Yashinda, Wolverine should have been there. So, I'm hoping that Bendis doesn't drop the ball in regards to Wolverine. I'm reluctact to even have him on the Aveners team, but as long as he's there, he better be used. I'm not the biggest Wolverine fan, by the way. But right now, I think it's probably one of the best eras for ol' Wolvie - what we the high quality of books we're seeing with Wolverine: Origins, Astonishing X-Men, and recent issues of Wolverine itself. So Bendis better throw his hat in the ring with Loeb, Whedon, and Way. ~W~ What does it matter if Bendis drops the ball with Wolverine? Wolverine is there for one reason and one reason only -- cash flow. Whether he gets used much or used properly is irrelevant. So long as Bendis at least shows him standing around grimacing, making testy comments, and popping his claws once in a while, the zombies will buy. Bendis has now lost his opportunity to prove that his book can sell without the Wolverine crutch, so people will continue to (rightly) criticize the choice as a purely cynical move. RSC
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 16, 2007 10:53:07 GMT -5
Yeah, but Jerry Krause was fired because he thought he could win another title for the Bulls without Michael Jordan and the Bulls were terrible for the next several seasons. Wolverine is job security!!
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 16, 2007 10:56:10 GMT -5
This is sad, so far we have: Echo (Ninja Girl) Ronin (Ninja Boy) Wolverine (Ninja boy with claws) and Dr. Strange (the most powerful magic user in the MU)
Oh well I guess bendis will get to tell his stories with ninjas now. LOL
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jan 16, 2007 11:53:29 GMT -5
Don't be ridiculous, guys. I think it's perfectly natural that Cap decided to scrap guys like Hercules, Falcon, Firebird, Triathlon, Black Panther et al in favour of REAL Avengers like Doctor Strange, Echo, Ronin and Wolverine! What are you, stupid?
Side note...
300TH POST!
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 16, 2007 12:00:22 GMT -5
Congrats on number 300 Doomsie. Now is there any way you can dig that time machine of yours out of the mothballs so some of us can go back and prevent New Avengers from ever happening?
You know, we've seen times before where we had an influx of new Avengers on the team, but it has worked. I think what concerns me is the lack of any veteran Avengers (so far, at least) to provide that necessary link to the past. Of course, who knows what the genesis of this team may be. It's entirely possible that it is a response to the Mighty team, which at this point seems to have a more legitimate claim to the name Avengers.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 16, 2007 13:02:47 GMT -5
You know, we've seen times before where we had an influx of new Avengers on the team, but it has worked. I think what concerns me is the lack of any veteran Avengers (so far, at least) to provide that necessary link to the past. Of course, who knows what the genesis of this team may be. It's entirely possible that it is a response to the Mighty team, which at this point seems to have a more legitimate claim to the name Avengers. I think most of the old-timers would agree with your sentiment. Throughout the first 250-275 issues, the line-up changes made sense or were at the least acceptable. Even the line-up with Reed and Sue, and Gilgamesh was short-lived enough that I think fans tolerated it (although most mark it as one of the downturns in Avengers history). This period seems forced to me, and the simple fact that nothing has happened in the book to either evolve this team or give it a basic reason for existence has this fan still wondering "why??".
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 16, 2007 18:00:07 GMT -5
Another day, another newly revealed member of the new lineup. And the winner is… Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew)
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 16, 2007 18:21:29 GMT -5
Well no surprise this one. As I've said before, I am OK with this. I think she could make a good Avenger. Her interactions with Cap back in NA were some of the few things I felt were right.
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 16, 2007 19:03:36 GMT -5
I'm starting to wonder where Bendis is going with this. We have four people with very similar fighting power. Echo, Ronin ( we assume here ), Wolverine and Spiderwoman are all scrappers as they'd say in City of Heroes. Hand to hand fighters of normal to slightly above normal strength. They all have different side powers, but close combat wise. Then there's Dr. Strange. I've got a bad feeling he's going to be handicapped somehow to make him viable on this team. What kind of unterthreat are these guys going to have to deal with?
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Post by redstatecap on Jan 16, 2007 19:35:43 GMT -5
IIRC Spider-Woman is more in Spider-Man's class than she is in Echo's class. It's been spoiled elsewhere (based on a released cover) that the full roster is: Dr. Strange Spider-Man Spider-Woman Power-Man (Cage) Iron-Fist Wolverine Echo Ronin (identity unknown) If correct, this would be an even more bizarre roster than the first run of NA. I would actually rate this roster as much, much worse.
You've essentially got: --the cash flow (Wolverine & Spidey) --the convenient deus ex machina (Strange) --a rehash of late 70's disco Power-Man and Iron Fist --the Spider-Twins --Echo and someone in Echo's old man-suit(Ronin)
I guess Bendis thinks this a a cute and inventive roster, but is anyone the least bit excited by this prospect? To me it's simply yet another proof that Bendis does not understand and learn from his mistakes, and is simply hell-bent on proving his arbitrary choices right.
RSC
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 16, 2007 20:05:19 GMT -5
You'd think he make the team smaller. He's proven over and over and over again that he has trouble writing a large cast.
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Post by thew40 on Jan 16, 2007 20:18:29 GMT -5
I'm glad Spider-Woman is back. She's one of his best characters, I believe.
~W~
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Jan 16, 2007 22:06:57 GMT -5
And you know the truly sick thing?
I'm still going to buy the friggin thing.
And it's still going to be on the top of the comic sales list .
friggin bendis (he no longer deserves to have his name capitalised.)
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Post by henrypym on Jan 16, 2007 22:45:03 GMT -5
And you know the truly sick thing? I'm still going to buy the friggin thing. And it's still going to be on the top of the comic sales list . friggin bendis (he no longer deserves to have his name capitalised.) I'll buy it too. I agree with redstatecap's earlier post listing some obvious motives behind the choices of certain characters. I'm going to take a wait and see attitude though and hope that I am somehow pleasantly surprised.
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 17, 2007 9:07:06 GMT -5
Well if that is the final team, and they do to Cap what I am afraid of, then I will be making a quiet exit from all Avengers comics, and most of the marvel comics. I am just tired of Joe Q letting Bendis, throw crap at the wall and hope it sticks, will using Wolverine and spiderman to sell the comic.
Oh well I guess I can say "Don't make mine marvel"
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 17, 2007 9:46:18 GMT -5
Keep in mind: Jean Grey died, Superman died, Norman Osborn died, Bucky died... and all returned to bigger and better sales!
Nothing is sacred in comics, nor is it forever. The financial bottom line motivates all decisions, not literary/artistic creativity. Any yahoo can come in and undo work put out under even the best intentions. If they do off Cap, first of all I'll be upset, but second of all, I'll recognize it as just another sales manipulation.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 17, 2007 10:47:17 GMT -5
Perhaps this isn't the PC thing to say but, IMO, those who really don't like how the books are being done, those who bemoan them but STILL buy them don't have the right to complain... kinda like those people who pregnant dog about the government but don't vote. I'm not talking about thew40 & people who feel like him; they like was going on, as is their God-given, constitution-granted right to do so... I'm specifically talking about the people who strongly disagree with the direction these books are taking, who strongly dislike what's going on... And I realize this is going to come across as a really intolerant attitude from my part, but I'm just trying to be honest here: this way of thinking & behaving p---es me off! Are we so hooked up that we can't walk away from something that, from our own admission, is NOT acceptable storytelling, not even a good product...? Are we so into consuming whatever they feed us...? Are we still, after more than 2 years of inept storytelling, horrible characterization, utterly bizarre dialogue & issue after issue of non-happenstances, ready to be quick to add, after aknowledging these things: "But I'm hoping..." "I'll wait & see..." "Maybe it won't be as bad..." .... Yes, yes we are... sigh...!!! Life's too short, ladies & gentlemen: there are other comic book companies were the Adversary holds no sway... there are also other types of comic books, besides superhero comics... And, beyond that, there are wonderful people, places, movies, plays, books, sports, hobbies, etc... out there as well, just waiting to be discovered... Just sayin'... And, in the immortal words of Ben Stiller's character in the movie "Meet the Fokkers" (or was it in "Meet the Parents...?), and slightly paraphrasing: "F---ker out...!!!
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 17, 2007 11:32:28 GMT -5
Perhaps this isn't the PC thing to say but, IMO, those who really don't like how the books are being done, those who bemoan them but STILL buy them don't have the right to complain... kinda like those people who pregnant dog about the government but don't vote. I'm not talking about thew40 & people who feel like him; they like was going on, as is their God-given, constitution-granted right to do so... I'm specifically talking about the people who strongly disagree with the direction these books are taking, who strongly dislike what's going on... And I realize this is going to come across as a really intolerant attitude from my part, but I'm just trying to be honest here: this way of thinking & behaving p---es me off! Are we so hooked up that we can't walk away from something that, from our own admission, is NOT acceptable storytelling, not even a good product...? Are we so into consuming whatever they feed us...? Are we still, after more than 2 years of inept storytelling, horrible characterization, utterly bizarre dialogue & issue after issue of non-happenstances, ready to be quick to add, after aknowledging these things: "But I'm hoping..." "I'll wait & see..." "Maybe it won't be as bad..." .... Yes, yes we are... sigh...!!! Life's too short, ladies & gentlemen: there are other comic book companies were the Adversary holds no sway... there are also other types of comic books, besides superhero comics... And, beyond that, there are wonderful people, places, movies, plays, books, sports, hobbies, etc... out there as well, just waiting to be discovered... Just sayin'... And, in the immortal words of Ben Stiller's character in the movie "Meet the Fokkers" (or was it in "Meet the Parents...?), and slightly paraphrasing: "F---ker out...!!! Fortunatly it is their right to complain, should they not buy the comic, well that is up to them. Cap is what kept me buying NA, if Cap is gone or he is Ronin (my god that is stupid), then I am off the NA comic, if they kill cap, well then I am done with most of my marvel comics. I will drop from around 20 marvel comics to 8. Oh well, I guess it is not my marvel anymore.
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BigDuke
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 136
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Post by BigDuke on Jan 17, 2007 15:36:34 GMT -5
When Ultron or Kang or the Collector show up to open up an unholy can of whoopazz on the Avengers, what will he think? Who are these upstarts, not the Avengers.
I like Cage and Spidey on the team. Spiderwoman is okay. Not sure about Echo or Fist. We'll have to see who Ronin is. Don't really care for Strange on the team and I really dislike Wolverine on the team (overhyped).
I am willing to give it a chance and am hoping that if Bendis likes his characters he will do better with them than he has so far. The one positive is.... no Sentry (of course he is on MA)
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 17, 2007 18:17:24 GMT -5
Today we got two: forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=97902The Heroes for Hire return. Note that Cage will be the leader of this team; and this reveal apparently gives away the fact that the Pro Reg side is in control after all the dust settles, as Cage and crew are referred to as 'rebels' .
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Post by spiderwasp on Jan 17, 2007 20:14:35 GMT -5
Perhaps this isn't the PC thing to say but, IMO, those who really don't like how the books are being done, those who bemoan them but STILL buy them don't have the right to complain... kinda like those people who pregnant dog about the government but don't vote. I'm not talking about thew40 & people who feel like him; they like was going on, as is their God-given, constitution-granted right to do so... I'm specifically talking about the people who strongly disagree with the direction these books are taking, who strongly dislike what's going on... And I realize this is going to come across as a really intolerant attitude from my part, but I'm just trying to be honest here: this way of thinking & behaving p---es me off! Are we so hooked up that we can't walk away from something that, from our own admission, is NOT acceptable storytelling, not even a good product...? Are we so into consuming whatever they feed us...? Are we still, after more than 2 years of inept storytelling, horrible characterization, utterly bizarre dialogue & issue after issue of non-happenstances, ready to be quick to add, after aknowledging these things: "But I'm hoping..." "I'll wait & see..." "Maybe it won't be as bad..." .... Yes, yes we are... sigh...!!! Life's too short, ladies & gentlemen: there are other comic book companies were the Adversary holds no sway... there are also other types of comic books, besides superhero comics... And, beyond that, there are wonderful people, places, movies, plays, books, sports, hobbies, etc... out there as well, just waiting to be discovered... Just sayin'... And, in the immortal words of Ben Stiller's character in the movie "Meet the Fokkers" (or was it in "Meet the Parents...?), and slightly paraphrasing: "F---ker out...!!! If the people who choose to buy the book but don't like what Bendis does don't have a right to complain, then who does? Only the people who don't buy the book? How can you complain if you don't read it? That only leaves the Bendisheads to voice their opinions of praise. Some of us have continued to buy the book because, although we don't like the direction it has taken, we still find some enjoyment in it. That doesn't mean we can't post about what we like and don't like. My opinion is that anyone who makes a statement about anyone's "right" to say what they want really has no business reading these posts. Why don't you boycott the Avengers Assemble website and see if that causes us to change what we write. I'm not really wanting you to do that but it's the same logic you insist about. Obviously there are some things here that you like and if you leave, you'll never know if we change. And yet, there you are, complaining about us complaining.
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Jan 17, 2007 20:47:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I'll buy it, and yes I'll complain, and yes, it's just exacerbating the situation because my sales and the sales of others like me will be added onto the figures to make Bendis a huge seller.
But...
If I may get pretentious and pseudo-psychologist here. The Avengers is the last of the comics I bought when I first got into them when I was 11. I dumped Spiderman during McFarlane's run (Venom is overrated dammit). I dumped Captain America after Waid was kicked off. I dumped Thor when he just rehashed the old Eric Masterson storyline and had him up against villains who looked like the Machine Men.
I've taken up non-superhero, ultra-cynical comics - Preacher, Transmetropolitan and now the Boys. The Avengers was/is still the last book where heroics count for something. Where being good is a virtue, not a hindrance. I know that's possibly incredibly naive, and entirely twee, but goddammit, that's where it is for me. When my daughters get old enough to read my comic collection, I want to show them these comics.
So yeah, I'll keep reading them in case they get better 'cause I'm not ready to let go just yet.
And ua2? "pregnant dog"?
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 17, 2007 21:06:13 GMT -5
kinda like those people who pregnant dog about the government but don't vote. Probably Ua2 typed the word “bitch”; the bulletin board software automatically turns certain words into euphemisms, although the algorithms can be defeated, as this very post demonstrates.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Jan 17, 2007 21:59:32 GMT -5
Many years ago, when I was thinking about future additions to the Avengers roster, I considered both Power Man (not just “Cage”—c’mon, Power Man!) and Iron Fist as viable possibilities— but not both at the same time. The idea of having them serve together on the team seemed a little too cutesy. We’re one day away from learning whether RSC’s leaked list is correct. To refresh your memory: It's been spoiled elsewhere (based on a released cover) that the full roster is: Dr. Strange Spider-Man Spider-Woman Power-Man (Cage) Iron-Fist Wolverine Echo Ronin (identity unknown) Setting aside the question of Spider-Man as member #8 and the question of Ronin’s secret ID, we have no members who predate the New Avengers title. At least the first half of the title will be accurate! If Spider-Man is in the lineup, then we’ll have one pre- NA member, but before NA he was never a major mainstay with the team—barely more than a footnote in the membership, really. Ronin may or may not be a major Avenger like Steve Rogers or Clint Barton—we’ll just have to see. I’m sure when outraged fans voice their displeasure with the lack of continuity with the traditional Avengers membership, Bendis & co. will loudly cite Cap’s Kooky Quartet (it’s like Cap’s Kooky Quartet times two!!) as proof of creative legitimacy.
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Post by thew40 on Jan 17, 2007 22:27:42 GMT -5
I'm fairly happy with this development.
I think Iron Fist and Luke Cage will bring a unique dynamic to the team. I think Cage is a character Bendis is very good at channeling, so I have hopes.
With this kind of team, I can the New Avengers handling smaller, more street-level (such as the Wrecking Crew) while the Mighty Avengers will take on the bigger threats such as Ultron and maybe Kang.
~W~
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Post by redstatecap on Jan 18, 2007 1:08:30 GMT -5
With this kind of team, I can the New Avengers handling smaller, more street-level (such as the Wrecking Crew) while the Mighty Avengers will take on the bigger threats such as Ultron and maybe Kang. Or maybe they'll stand around talking like the NA did for most of the 26 issues prior. ;D RSC
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jan 18, 2007 3:06:28 GMT -5
spiderwasp: you're, of course, quite...right regarding my tirade about who has & who hasn't a right to this or that... beware anyone overly eager to appoint herself or himself as arbitrator of anybody else's rights; under normal circumstances, that is, when blood & oxygen properly circulate through my brain, this has always been my motto... In my defense, I will say I was venting a lot of pent-up frustration... that being said, I still think your counterargument is equally flawed: from what I understand, you're saying you need to keep buying it, in order to critizise it.. I think there's a point where a threshold of resonable doubt is crossed and, after that, you're in the Land of No Expectations beyond... After more than 2 years of expectations & nothing to show for them, I'd say we've crossed that Rubicon & left it behind. Once again, I don't mean those of us who only have minor complaints or a few misgivings about NA, no, I'm addressing those of us who, by their own admision, hate or highly dislike everything for which NA stands or, at least, most of it... After years of buying something which doesn't reasonably satisfies us, the only sane explanation (to me) would be masochism... To use the example of Stephen King, since his name has been mentioned, I highly doubt he could keep his legion of fans if he would openly flaunt his unwillingness to aknowledge their tastes, and if he would consistently write stuff many of his fans wouldn't care for. I do like & enjoy "Avengers Assemble!", spiderwasp, however, I don't pay to read other people's opinions, nor to post mine. I'm not currently purchaising "Avengers" because, plain & simple, I got tired of giving money to people who weren't making the book enjoyable for me...I do plan to return every so often to the Avengers to check if, from my perspective, anything changes for the better but, honestly, I've completely lost any faith or hope that such changes can take place during the Bendis Era and, truly, I'm utterly baffled by anyone (who doesn't care for what he does to begin with) who still does.
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Post by Black Knight on Jan 18, 2007 8:31:32 GMT -5
Well, I guess I am done with NA. Oh well, I don't know why I even hoped that Bendis would get a clue. Later
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 18, 2007 8:49:46 GMT -5
I'd like to go on record as saying I have never bought a single NA issue and I'm glad for it. It would have been a waste of my money. If the series had stayed more like the first couple issues and not gone on wild tangents I would have slapped my hard earned dollars on the counter of my local comic book shop. (btw we are down to one local comic shop and i'm not sure how much longer that will last. sad. )
Also when a new writer takes over a title you can forgive them for a while until they learn their characters. It may take a few issues for them to get a feel for who interacts with who the best and build a team you care about. I feel the Bends never accomplished this. All his characters seem identical. The only way you can tell who was talking is by which direction the little arrow on the word balloon is pointing.
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Post by dlw66 on Jan 18, 2007 9:27:26 GMT -5
So let me get his straight: between two teams, approximately 12-14 members, we basically have four "real" Avengers -- Iron Man (who may or may not be Tony Stark), Wasp, Wonder Man, and Ms. Marvel. Almost everyone else was rescued from the "yeah, these characters are just lying around but we need to use them to keep the trademarks -- go ahead" pile. See -- two out of the three guys Bendis is using don't even belong in this book! Maybe we need another monthly called "The Real Avengers" which we shall henceforth refer to as "RA". Members might include Captain America, Thor, Vision, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, and Black Panther. Occasionally they might FIGHT against Kang, Ultron, Zodiac, the Collector, and some incarnation of the Masters of Evil. Writers might include guys who give a crap, like Joe Casey. Artists might include anyone who can accurately depict human anatomy, albeit from a body-builder perspective. Stories would have no limit -- we'd have nice 4-5 issue arcs as well as one-and-dones. Creativity would be for creativity's sake, not some prescribed length or format. Finally, letters pages and message boards would light up with the adulation of 30-50 year olds everywhere, praising the Marvel gods for returning the formerly hijacked, beloved Avengers of yore. Yeah...
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