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Post by spiderwasp on Nov 11, 2006 9:15:14 GMT -5
Wait. Did Bendis really kill off Alpha Flight off panel? Do NOT tell me that is true. Sorry, but he did. However, in Bendis' defense, it really moved the plot along because... (Let me try again) It was necessary to set up how powerful the Collective was so that we would be prepared for the enormous consequences of his battle, such as...(Oops) Clearly, if Alpha Flight had been merely injured instead of killed, the rest of the story wouldn't have had the same inpact because, as a result of their deaths, the Avengers went "Wow!" (Okay, that didn't work either.) Man, this defense of Bendis thing is tough. I give up. One of you Bendis fans give it a try.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 11, 2006 9:46:54 GMT -5
I couldn't even consider reading this much information. If you are going to tell me off, please keep it to 200 words or less. Your own post telling off Doom, which Doom was primarily responding to, contains approximately 238 words. Right. And it was the most perfect post ever made by any member of the human race. It may have been a perfect example of irresponsible argumentation. It’s rife with personal attacks, it attempts to establish the author’s authority as unquestionable on the basis of alleged secret information, and it invokes a display of wealth as an excuse to bully a person with a dissenting view. Like you, I disagree with Doom’s argument that Bendis cannot be a powerful influence on the Marvel Universe because he writes only two Marvel Universe series. As civilized men, let’s confine our rebuttals to facts and analysis and leave the posturing aside.
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Post by bobc on Nov 11, 2006 9:56:24 GMT -5
Hey Phantom--I really am not interested in the least in your opinions about my posts. If you don't like 'em, don't read 'em. I'm always amused by people who think they are grade school hall monitors in a goofy internet forum. I mean were you really so petty that you counted the number of words in my post? Man-- if I ever get that bored, shoot me.
Oh and one last thing--since you decided to take an inventory of my own personal flaws, here's one back atcha. Stop talking like someone shoved a thesaurus up your butt. It comes off as petty, pretentious and juvenile. And worst of ALL, humorless. Grown-ups use big words in the appropriate time and place--and a comic forum isn't one of them.
Ahhhh comic book intellectuals...
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 11, 2006 10:13:42 GMT -5
Hey Phantom--I really am not interested in the least in your opinions about my posts. If you don't like 'em, don't read 'em. I'm always amused by people who think they are grade school hall monitors in a goofy internet forum. I mean were you really so petty that you counted the number of words in my post? Man-- if I ever get that bored, shoot me. Oh and one last thing--since you decided to take an inventory of my own personal flaws, here's one back atcha. Stop talking like someone shoved a thesaurus up your butt. It comes off as petty, pretentious and juvenile. And worst of ALL, humorless. Grown-ups use big words in the appropriate time and place--and a comic forum isn't one of them. Ahhhh comic book intellectuals... I withdraw the implication that you might be civilized.
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Post by bobc on Nov 11, 2006 10:25:47 GMT -5
Good call. Now about that thesaurus...
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Post by bobc on Nov 11, 2006 10:46:06 GMT -5
Nice try Spiderwasp. Don't feel bad. So what you're saying is killing off Alpha Flight could have worked and been pretty exciting had it been written competently, which it wasn't. That is like so unlike Bendis.
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 11, 2006 12:16:03 GMT -5
I have to agree with bobc on just about every point (about Bendis, not his personal attacks on everyone), although I don't have this mysterious insider information he has. I'm reading vol. 3 right now and every single comic from that run so far has totally blown away the entire collection of Bendis' work I've seen on NA. No, I have not read the newer issues, and I don't plan to. For those raving over the single character NA stories that came out recently... I don't care. Avengers is a team book. If Bendis can't write a team book and is only good with one character at a time, get him off this title and give him a single hero to ruin.
Another thing, what happaned to all the good artists at Marvel? I remember back when heroes looked like Heroes. NA is the only recent comic I've looked at and from the start of the series everyone looks like people in costumes, not SUPER heroes. I don't want that over perspective, muscles on their muscles look of the early '90s but the Avengers look frumpy to me. I don't know who the NA artist and I'm too lazy too look it up. Are there any real artists left out there?
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 11, 2006 12:19:06 GMT -5
Some of us know people that some of you don't...
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Post by bobc on Nov 11, 2006 15:19:00 GMT -5
I never engage in personal attacks unless someone goes after me first. When that occurs, I will bite. Otherwise I'm happy and fluffy
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Post by bobc on Nov 12, 2006 20:13:08 GMT -5
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Jan 14, 2007 3:02:08 GMT -5
As a lifetime loyal customer of Marvel, I find it highly insulting that Marvel tells me to essentially go f*** myself if I don't like their product. If anything, the people who dislike his product have been able to present a much better case as to WHY they dislike it, than his fans have been able to present the case as to WHY they like it. Couldn't have said it better myself. On another thread, I asked for a fan to justify Bendis' run as I was truly interested as to why it's so popular. (This is ignoring the fact I have a general disdain for most popular things - how many CDs did the Spice Girls sell?) I really want to know if I'm missing something. So I read all of those other posts linked to in the first of these. And then I read all of these. (Two hours of my life I'm not getting back) And you know what? I'm still not enlightened. Most Bendis supporters spent their time bagging out the detractors, and simply telling them that their opinions are wrong. Other than that, I found four that has anything consisting of arguments: 1) "He seems to nail the character relationships so well, even with a rag-tag bunch of oddballs (Cage, Spider-Woman, Wolverine) in the mix that don't seem like classic Avengers."Nailing character relationships is easy when you ignore the characterisation of the characters. You shape them the way you want, not the way they are. And even if we ignore this qualm, how does Bendis nail the relationships? IM is arrogant. SM is a smart arse. SW is mysterious. W gets annoyed with everything. Where's the challenge? Is there any relationship that is anywhere near on par of even the much maligned Harras Sersi/Dane/Crystal triangle? 2) "Dialogue makes me giggle"If I may quote Buffy for a moment: "I believe I speak for everyone here when I say: 'Huh?'" 3) Not a reason, but one of Bendis's defenders said he got back into Avengers after dropping it during Roger Stern's run! Huh? I think we can disregard this guy's opinion straight away. 4) " Well, that's the advantage Bendis has when he's writing a book. Bendis doesn't have to worry about being fired or replaced as writer of the Avengers anytime soon. So he can afford to incorporate long term planning in his stories that are resolved as much as 3 years later. " Nope. Pacing still counts. One of the most startling things I have ever read (Pretentious wanker alert: English teacher, so I've read a sh*t-load of literature, books and others) was Preacher. This was a series that was 66 issues long. Essentially a 5 1/2 year long story. One of those years Ennis did away with the entire supporting cast and had the main character do down time. And yet, not once, did I think that Ennis had forgotten the main story, and not once did I want him to get on with it, and not once - more importantly - did I think he had wasted my money that month. It doesn't matter how long it takes to tell a story. If you wait an entire month to get a comic, and then shell out money that could be used to pay for anything else, I think you're entitled to see an actual story. You should never have to put down a comic and think, "well not much happened, but I guess when he finishes the arc, it'll all make sense". 5) " I sort of wonder if this is how people felt when they watched the first season of Babylon 5. The first season of the show was largely just dangling plot threads that were picked up later. It was a very different type of storytelling than say a Star Trek next generation, where everything was resolved in the first 60 minutes." There was a lot of this: comparing Bendis's writing style to a lot of tv shows, with the implications that the critics of Bendis don't have the patience, the savvy or the intelligence to get his genius. BUT. How many of you stopped watching X-Files around season 5 when even the main actor got bored and left, simply because the writers wouldn't get on with it? And how many of you loved the X-files in the first 5 seasons because even though they did have that over-arching unresolved sub plot, every week you were guaranteed a fantastic complete story? My favourite tv shows (other than Nightstand and Married with Children) have always been shows with a long story arc. X-Files, Babylon 5, American Gothic, and now Veronica Mars. So I don't think my not getting Bendis has anything to do with a lack of extended narrative savvy. If you want to make a more accurate comparison to Bendis' writing, think about what Babylon 5 would have been like if they had played the first pre-credit segment of an episode, went away for a week, told the next segment the following week, then left it for another week, etc. It doesn't matter how good JMS's writing was - no one would put up with that crap. Or for a more realistic analogy: watch a soapie. An entire half hour of people talking and emoting and once in a long while - something actually happens that advances the plot. That's a NA issue right there. So I'm still in the dark. And I'm getting a little worried about some of you. Bobc, have a beer and relax. Getting stuck into someone for using large words is a little dodgy. It seems to suggest you're jealous of his voakab voceabb voccabbly list of words thing.
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daned
Probationary Avenger
Posts: 87
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Post by daned on Jan 14, 2007 3:04:35 GMT -5
Wait. Did Bendis really kill off Alpha Flight off panel? Do NOT tell me that is true. Yeah. You may have missed it while being enthralled by the SHIELD agent not wanting to contact the Avengers. And then contacting them.
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Post by Tana Nile on Jan 16, 2007 18:45:25 GMT -5
I've had some extra time on my hands the last two weeks. My new job hasn't started yet, and the flu has sidelined me for the last 5 days, so I have been doing a lot of reading. One of the things I decided to do is go back and read New Avengers 1-12.
Before many of you scream, "WHY??" let me say that I have always tried to be a fair-minded person. I have been very unhappy with what Bendis and Quesada (I think he has to take some of the blame too) have done to the Avengers. But I remember that when the new series started, I thought it had promise. So I re-read those issues and tried to be open-minded.
And you know what? I actually enjoyed issues 1-6. Much of this centered around the prison break and rounding up the escaped criminals. the team meets and begins to gel. We learn about a shady SHIELD group that appears to be stealing vibranium to sell and is hiding supervillains. It looked like we had a fairly promising setting.
But then issues 7-10 get focused on Sentry. The story seems to go on way too long, and previous plot-lines are not dealt with. After that, we get the Ronin/Ninjas/Japan stuff...well, the wheels were off at that point for me.
The point is, and I can hardly believe I am saying this, I think Bendis' first 6 issues were pretty good. I am not a fan of his dialogue (His dialogue? Yeah, his dialogue. What about his dialogue? I'm not a fan of it. Oh. The hell??), but I think he told a decent story in these 6 issues, and I would have liked to see the whole Avengers vs. corrupt SHIELD story continue. Maybe that will be dealt with in the new New Avengers.
I may have to read the whole series again now...maybe that is the fever talking...
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Post by uberwolf on Jan 16, 2007 19:08:05 GMT -5
I'm with you there tananile, I always said NA started out well. Even got me excited about what was coming next... and then I didn't want to see what was next. And then I prayed there would be no next. But I agree, it did start well.
Now that you mention it... the new team would be perfect to go after SHIELD.
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Post by Nutcase65 on Apr 10, 2007 20:55:15 GMT -5
The point is, and I can hardly believe I am saying this, I think Bendis' first 6 issues were pretty good. This is my first time reading this thread. and I agree with Tana. I'll even go one step further. If they had started with the Sentry story, and we never had the SHIELD thing hanging over our heads, I think it would've been easier to take. The ninja thing? I'll never defend that. It's like they are smoking crack while deciding story timelines.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 17, 2007 9:21:41 GMT -5
I was reading the first issue of the late 90´s Heroes for Hire series and it started with a prision break too. But unlike NA, we learn why there was a prision break, who the villains are, what their motivations are, who is the evil figure lurking in the shadows (and why he´s manipulating the villains) ALL THAT IN THE FIRST ISSUE. We even get subplots, mysteries and character development. AND ALL THAT IN CONTINUITY. So why can Ostrander (and Stern) do it and BENDIS! can´t? (It´s a retorical question, BTW) And why does BENDIS! have a legion of Bendiszombies defending everything he writes an no one seems to want to give a Marvel book to Stern or Ostrander??!!
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Post by Doctor Doom on Apr 17, 2007 10:50:57 GMT -5
To be fair, i think even most NA haters would say "Breakout" was the best arc of New Avengers.
And personally speaking, I find Bendis average in NA, nowhere near as horrible as many of you claim, but I don't think that makes me fit into the category of a Bendiszombie who defends everything he does.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 17, 2007 12:29:02 GMT -5
To be fair, i think even most NA haters would say "Breakout" was the best arc of New Avengers. I was comparing NA to the first arc (and first issue) of another book, so if that arc was the best of New Avengers or not is irrelevant. And personally speaking, I find Bendis average in NA, nowhere near as horrible as many of you claim, but I don't think that makes me fit into the category of a Bendiszombie who defends everything he does. Nor was I claiming that you are a Bendiszombie, but there are many Bendis fans that will defend the guy and everything he writes, and I don´t see that applying to other (more talented) writers. The purpose of my post was to show that with a similar thematic more gifted creators wrote better stories in the past. Bendis had everything, from popular characters to Joe Q´s hype machine, and delivered a mediocre to average product (we´re talking about the first storyarc only), even in your opinion.
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Post by Doctor Bong on Apr 17, 2007 14:40:43 GMT -5
Yes, the beginning showed some promise, even for me...
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Apr 28, 2007 15:48:18 GMT -5
Don't really know anything about 'New' Avengers, but the thread was informative.
Doctor Dom said that Grant Morrison was the most over rated writer. Maybe. I haven't read any of his Marvel stuff. Zenith was and is one of my favourite comic strips ever (and Steve Yeowell's artwork was great), so whatever crimes he may have commited he does have something going for him in my book. Mind you, considering the content of Zenith he does seem an odd choice to write mainstream superhero comics.
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