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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 3, 2006 18:08:41 GMT -5
I entitled this post 'Cruel to be Kind' because I'm fairly sure some of you may suffer heart attacks or some such thing (especially you old-timers who have been following since the 60s ) but it's ultimately for your own good. There's an interesting thread over at CBR right now where you can get some... interesting perspectives on New Avengers. A lot of people bash it, others like it, many say they are true longtime Avengers fans who love New Avengers, one even says they're in the majority since NA sells better than old Avengers ever did. I thought it would be interesting to see your responses- and I wanted to prove that some people CAN be Avengers fans and love New Avengers. Anyway, wanted to see your perspectives on this: forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=146114PS: See if you can guess which poster was me. Any of you who browse may recognize my views on other subjects, such as Civil War....
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Post by Engage on Nov 4, 2006 1:59:19 GMT -5
You know, I think that the discussion on CBR really mirrors a lot of the stuff here. The idea that the New Avengers isn't really the Avengers due to both roster and group dynamics is represented, as is the opposite school of thought.
I think that in the end New Avengers is going to be looked at as greater than the sum of its parts. For some it will be both the first taste of the Avengers and for others it will be the dark spot where they waited the title out. But I think that there has been an infusion of new characters in New Avengers that either existed in obscurity before that have been reborn or have been created/recreated which seems to be the trend in Marvel. New Avengers may end up being our decade's "change" book, much like the X-Men in the 80's and 90's.
The discussion over there seems to have the same thoughts on Bendis as well.
Some of it has worked, some of it hasn't. Some of it will fade away and for some characters the ball will be passed and run with (see my views on the Sentry). The style of Bendis is controversial, mostly because he kept the detective story pacing that works in individual, darker books which are driven by mystery that is isn't quite as compatible with team books but which is favoured by some. The plots are viewed by some as good and by some as bad, but that'll happen no matter how the story goes.
I think New Avengers has some good stuff, and while I don't buy it every month I pick it up on occasion and it seems to serve its purpose. It kept the brand alive, and now it seems that the Avengers name will branch off and hopefully find a new audience for the reintroduction of the characters from the Avengers end of the Marvel Universe (ie. Wonder Man, Wasp, etc), not to mention the solo titles which have appeared over the course of NA, putting the ol'Avengers spotlight on various characters.
But overall, it seems to be the same as here. Some for NA, some against it and some in the middle ground.
Warning: If the above post makes very little sense I'm blaming the time at which I am posting. I honestly can't tell if that makes sense to anyone but me.
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 4, 2006 3:34:16 GMT -5
Warning: If the above post makes very little sense I'm blaming the time at which I am posting. Hey—what’s wrong with the middle of the night? I’m not sure NA will be viewed as greater than the sum of its parts, but I do agree that some of the “character infusion” might help aim the spotlight on characters who are or will be considered worthy of it. Spider-Woman is a good example—I felt her disuse after the end of her original series was a shame, and for that matter I considered her a good candidate for Avengers membership (she’d been offered it in #221). So, I’m glad she’s become an Avenger, but that sort of thing isn’t enough to lead me to think of Bendis’ run as particularly good. But it’s not 100% garbage either, and so I hope history would make a careful analysis of the run. Edited: corrected a typo.
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Post by bobc on Nov 5, 2006 11:11:12 GMT -5
Oh for God's sake. I read the first three pages and most of the posts either said they would soon be dropping the book, or at best the New Avengers is mediocre. Of the couple of pro Bendis posts, one kid says "there's a renegade arm of Shield--CHECK" as if that is the most fascinatingly original idea ever thought up by any member of the human race. Bendis is a HACK. The Shield "renegade" storyline is warmed-over X-files, stale-in-the-90's, the government is evil, brain dead bullsmit.
My God it's been over a DECADE and this same old mind-numbing "gov't is evil" plotline has been done to DEATH. I can only imagine it still apealing to pimply-faced 12 YO's who still think it's cool to rebel against their parents.
This is so sad, folks. Let's pretend for a minute that a rogue arm of Shield is even remotely interesting or original at this point, which it's not, but for the sake of argument--can someone explain to me why it needs to take almost THREE YEARS to spit the story out? That whole plot should have taken three issues TOPS to play out. It's like watching paint dry.
And that same kid spouts "Sentry: CHECK." like the Sentry is just the most fascinating thing ever invented. He sucks. I didn't think anybody could make "the power of a million bursting suns" seem BORING but once again I underestimated Bendis' tedious writing style.
I said it before and I'll say it again--Bendis is the WORST thing to ever happen to Marvel. You want to read competent, exciting writers? Try Millar, or Alan Moore, or Frank Miller. These guys can stand toe-to-toe with any mainstream writer in any genre. Bendis is the most over-rated hack I have ever seen anywhere. It is MIND-Boggling how anyone can think this guy is even passable. In ten years do you think anybody's gonna be making any movies about this drivel Bendis is shoving off on us? HA--don't bet on it.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 5, 2006 17:11:45 GMT -5
Well much as I strongly disagree with BobC's HATRED of Bendis.... I'll agree he is ONE of the most overrated writers. Not the most. ,<Glares again at Grant Morrison>
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Post by bobc on Nov 5, 2006 19:31:20 GMT -5
Yes, my hatred is nearing the psychotic level, but he's driven me to the brink.
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ozbot
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 103
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Post by ozbot on Nov 5, 2006 22:08:37 GMT -5
Well, I don't want to wade through a lot of CBR pages (altho I think I passed thru that thread awhile back) I thought I'd wade into the New Coke vs. Classic Coke debate. Or in this case, the Avengers.
I abandoned the series after a short four issues. I was actually excited to see what was going to be done, regardless of the bad taste in my mouth that was left with Disassembled. A team of Avengers going underground? Cool! Luke Cage and Spider-Woman as Avengers? Cool! A mystery member with a kick-ass costume? Cool! I admit, I'm a little kid at heart when it comes to these things.
But the execution of these ideas was deplorable. I can go into all kinds of details in a blow by blow description of what left me cold. The bottom line is, I see Bendis as an idea-man, someone who could come up with great ideas in a pitch session but tragically never make anything come out of it in execution. Until he's off Avengers, I doubt I'll return.
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 5, 2006 22:24:59 GMT -5
As my English teacher used to say about Stephen King... Bendis could't write his way out of a wet crossworld puzzle.
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Post by bobc on Nov 6, 2006 8:59:17 GMT -5
Ozbot--thank you. You hit the nail right on the head. I gave NA a chance too and really was excited at first, but that excitement wore off within three issues. I really did give it a chance--I kept buying it for a year after realizing it was just plain bad. I, like others, thought Bendis MUST be building up to something, some sort of huge payoff--but the payoff never happened. I could totally be behind Spiderwoman and Cage being Avengers--Spiderman too if handled right.
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Post by bobc on Nov 6, 2006 21:26:41 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Bong on Nov 7, 2006 0:57:40 GMT -5
Amen, brother...
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Post by bobc on Nov 7, 2006 9:50:24 GMT -5
Do a search sometime on the terms "Brian Michael Bendis" and "sucks"--it can really perk up a dull evening.
I just read his "biography." Did you all know he was basically a failed crime writer up until 2000, when Quesada just called him and offered him a job? Not that it wasn't already painfully obvious that Bendis doesn't know a damned thing about the characters he's writing. This guy is a fraud.
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Post by uberwolf on Nov 7, 2006 10:37:57 GMT -5
The problem is, bad press is better than no press. As long as Bendis sucks, everyone knows he sucks and keeps talking about how he sucks, it's more press for Marvel. We need to do what they did to Freddy Kruger in Jason vs. Freddy. Just forget him and he will lose all his power and fade away.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 7, 2006 11:29:48 GMT -5
But that doesn't happen, uber. Bendis gets great press, and people talk about him as a fantastic writer as much as, if not MUCH MORE THAN they talk about him as bad!
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Post by bobc on Nov 7, 2006 13:01:24 GMT -5
uhhh where would that be, Doomsie? And please, no more links prior to 2004
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 7, 2006 13:11:20 GMT -5
Wizardworld Chicago made him the guest of honor this past summer. Don't discount what the fanzines can do for people's careers...
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Post by bobc on Nov 7, 2006 14:42:00 GMT -5
well seeing as Bendis is basically running the direction of Marvel these days, that'd be a good choice. I myself would love to learn more about the oral technique that propelled him so far so fast.
In that same interview with Bendis, he whined that he was seen as Marvel's Hannibal Lector because he killed off so many characters and seemed ever so mystified as to why comic fans are pissed. This, of course, points towards his complete lack of familiarity with the characters he pretends to know and love so well.
After reading that interview, I am convinced that Quesada saw this clown's work in some failed crime magazine, and tried to manufacture the next Frank Miller. IT DIDN'T WORK. You can't fake talent. Think about it. Frank Miller started with the same gritty, dark style that Bendis tries to pull off. AND Frank Miller is directly responsible for the entire resurgence of Superhero movies in mainstream American culture--if he had not written Dark Knight Returns, the Batman movies would never have been made, let alone been wildly popular. No Frank Miller, no Daredevil movies. No Frank Miller, no Electra movies. No Frank Miller, no Sin City.
So yeah--after reading Bendis's background I am convinced this guy was supposed to be the next Frank Miller so the hype machine went into overdrive. Unfortunately, hype only goes so far before people start seeing through it.
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Post by redstatecap on Nov 8, 2006 0:03:00 GMT -5
The first problem is the cozy relationship between Marvel and the various independant entities that have a vested interest in seeing Marvel's products succeed. For example: Wizard is simply not interested in providing an honest evaluation of Bendis' work. They are interested in selling comics, magazines about comics, and other comic-related goods and services. Wizard is not going to bite the hand that feeds them. The second problem is that popularity can be manufactured independant of talent. The unfortunate fact is that the comics community are sheep to an even greater degree than society as a whole. A substantial portion of comics fans will like what Marvel tells them to like -- for example the next big, groundbreaking, earth-shattering event which will change absolutely everything about the Marvel Universe! Comic fans as a whole do not demand quality and are satisfied (ecstatic, even!) with mediocrity. The third problem is that good-great art covers a lot of writing sins. Due to the fact that comics are a visual medium, fans often confuse pretty art (and T&A) with good writing. Bendis' NA has had (and always will have) top-flight artistic talent, which will cover up for his weak writing.
RSC
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Post by von Bek on Nov 8, 2006 8:44:35 GMT -5
Joe Q took all those guys from Caliber Comics (including Bendis) and started a campaign to make the readership believe that they were the new messiahs, who would save the industry. You nailed it on the head, Bob, Bendis is aping Miller early 80´s stuff, from ninjas to corrupt agents inside Shield (Elektra Assassin, anyone?), we had already seen it all 20 years ago, only better written and with better art. Why prople think Bendis is innovative is beyond me...
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Post by bobc on Nov 8, 2006 9:17:07 GMT -5
Isn't this sad? I did a poll yesterday at work, asking the comic nerds whether or not they liked Bendis. One person said he liked Bendis' "Powers," but every single other person said Bendis was TERRIBLE. Who is buying this stuff? One of my coworkers just looked at me and said it's because Wolverine and Spiderman are in it, and 12 YO boys like them. That's pretty much it, isn't it?
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Post by von Bek on Nov 8, 2006 9:28:00 GMT -5
Wasn´t there a TV Show ("O.C." or one of these) where one guy was a huge Bendis fan? I wonder how Marvel (actually Joe Q) did that. Maybe in "Guiding Light" all the characters will become Bendis fans too...
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Post by dlw66 on Nov 8, 2006 10:28:57 GMT -5
RSC makes the excellent point concerning fanzines, which played off my post at the top of the page. Generally we assume that newspapers and magazines will provide some degree of objectivity -- that is certainly not the case with Wizard, etc. "Biting the hand that feeds you" is a very correct assessment.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 8, 2006 12:55:52 GMT -5
well seeing as Bendis is basically running the direction of Marvel these days, that'd be a good choice. NO HE IS NOT!!! BobC, I respect you anh enormous amount as a fantastic forummer, but you do get carried away when discussing Bendis and this is the perfect example. Bendis FAR FROM runs Marvel, he will in half a year's time be writing exactly two 616 books! He did not prose Civil War, it's clear his fingerprints ARENM'T all over it because Luke Cage et al have played very minor roles.... HE is NOT controlling the direction of Marvel or anything like that. In the name of sanity, let's not get obscenely carried away! Many would say he was. The facts are pretty clear- Bendis writes some of the best selling titles at marvel, MANY fans love his work ,New Avengers has been a huge success and hiring bendis has been VERY succesful. Now whwther he's actually GOOD or not is totally based on opinion. I respect you very much as well but the same applies as with BobC. Yes, the character's name is Seth and franly it is paranoid and a little pathetic to assume Joe Q must have done this, or Hell even Marvel.
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Post by bobc on Nov 8, 2006 13:36:09 GMT -5
uhhhhhh I could say something here, but I can't. ooohhh how I wish I could.
Bendis IS running the show.
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Post by von Bek on Nov 8, 2006 13:44:44 GMT -5
Bendis FAR FROM runs Marvel, he will in half a year's time be writing exactly two 616 books! HE is NOT controlling the direction of Marvel or anything like that. In the name of sanity, let's not get obscenely carried away! Err... Ok. But the two books that he will be writing are essential to the rest of the Marvel Universe. I could agree with you if the two books were Power Man and Cloak and Dagger, but he´s controlling a center of the MU, the Avengers center. The facts are pretty clear- Bendis writes some of the best selling titles at marvel, MANY fans love his work ,New Avengers has been a huge success and hiring bendis has been VERY succesful. Now whwther he's actually GOOD or not is totally based on opinion. DD is selling better without Bendis. Alias and the Pulse were not a huge success in terms of sales either. Avengers under Chuck Austen with obscure characters like Jack of Hearts was selling around 50k, like Bendis´ DD. But USM and New Avengers sold better than the average Marvel book, there you´re correct. I respect you very much as well but the same applies as with BobC. Yes, the character's name is Seth and franly it is paranoid and a little pathetic to assume Joe Q must have done this, or Hell even Marvel. If I´m not mistaken Heinberg (yes, the one from YA) was working on the show. I´m not sure, so I could be wrong. But if he was, well wouldn´t this be a coincidence . Doom, I´m not saying there is a big conspiracy and Joe Q and Bendis are taking over the world (that´s a scary thought) or anything, but if a character on a TV show start talking a lot about Bendis, I can´t imagine Marvel has absolutely nothing to do with it. Why wasn´t this character "Seth" talking about Greg Pak, Brubaker or even Bendis´pal David Mack?
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Post by bobc on Nov 8, 2006 14:36:47 GMT -5
See this is what bugs me about Bendis' defenders. A true test of Bendis' popularity and talent would be if he took a new character like Alias and made her highly popular, or maybe taking a dead title like 70's X-Men and making it popular again as Claremont did. Instead, Bendis has taken a team which was ALWAYS in the top 5 anyway, and added Marvel's two most popular characters. And then Marvel promoted it like no other title in the last ten years. Who wouldn't be selling big numbers given that scenario? How this translates into talent is beyond me.
A Big Mac consistently outsells filet mignon but nobody would agrue that a Big Mac is a stellar food item.
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ozbot
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 103
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Post by ozbot on Nov 8, 2006 15:04:58 GMT -5
Instead, Bendis has taken a team which was ALWAYS in the top 5 anyway. Perhaps that's true to some extent, but however top tier the title was, that never translated into an impact in Marvel's ficitional universe. People often criticize Busiek's Kang War and John's World Trust storylines because however epic in scope they were, the rest of Marvel's titles never made mention of them. (Contrast to the titles in the 80's where Roger Stern had the Avengers impact the Savage Land, Eternals, Skrull Empire, etc.) To be fair, this was the spirit of the times. Perhaps Bendis is lucky, and one way is that his timing was ripe. Now, there is a demand for inter-continuity, so that New Avengers sets up line-wide events (even multiple line-wide events) and other titles (Illuminati, Young Avengers). If Bendis was doing his thing and not impacting any other title or line of titles, do you think there would be the same amount of support? the same amount of outrage?
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Post by bobc on Nov 8, 2006 16:26:50 GMT -5
Well to me, it seems like there's this attitude that anything pre-Bendis is old school, which makes me hate him more because that implies that he is the future of all things Marvel. He simply doesn't have the talent to justify this canonization. But when I read interviews with him, he arrogantly states that we "old school" comic fans should just go read silver age/gold age reprints if we didn't like the grand vision that is Bendis.
Now regarding inter-continuity, what exactly has been "set up" by Bendis in other titles? We keep being told that the Marvel Universe will be shaken to the foundations by titles like Civil War and House of M, and it'll be endlessly fascinating, but what really came out of any of it? House of M was BORING.
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Post by Doctor Doom on Nov 8, 2006 17:24:39 GMT -5
uhhhhhh I could say something here, but I can't. ooohhh how I wish I could. Bendis IS running the show. I despair. Honestly, I'm sorry but this is the kind of BLIND HATRED which makes me feel the same towards Bendis-zombies and Bendis-HATERS alike. And rest assured, I do view absoloutely despising Bendis and all his work and hating everything he does just as low as I view loving him blindly despite his many imperfections. Have to go now, will respond to the other points later!
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Post by The Night Phantom on Nov 8, 2006 19:12:09 GMT -5
well seeing as Bendis is basically running the direction of Marvel these days, that'd be a good choice. NO HE IS NOT!!! BobC, I respect you anh enormous amount as a fantastic forummer, but you do get carried away when discussing Bendis and this is the perfect example. Bendis FAR FROM runs Marvel, he will in half a year's time be writing exactly two 616 books! He did not prose Civil War, it's clear his fingerprints ARENM'T all over it because Luke Cage et al have played very minor roles.... HE is NOT controlling the direction of Marvel or anything like that. In the name of sanity, let's not get obscenely carried away! I agree with Vonbek that the truth lies somewhere in between BobC’s extravagant exaggerations and Doom’s fervid refutations. Bendis is an idea man for Marvel and Quesada, even on comics that don’t show his name in the credits. His House of M is obviously a strong influence on many other Marvel comics. As I recall, Quesada has cited Bendis as an architect of Civil War, even though Bendis passed on writing the main series. For another example, I doubt Amazing Spider-Man was acting as a de facto Avengers team book for a while just because Joe Straczynski wanted Spidey in the Avengers; I think Spider-Man’s Avengers membership was a Bendis idea that got the green light, and Straczynski then chose to run with that angle. (Sorry for the mixed metaphor…) Bendis may not be running the show, but as Ozbot says, his voice is heard in many corners of the Marvel Universe. I respect you very much as well but the same applies as with BobC. Yes, the character's name is Seth and franly it is paranoid and a little pathetic to assume Joe Q must have done this, or Hell even Marvel. If I´m not mistaken Heinberg (yes, the one from YA) was working on the show. I´m not sure, so I could be wrong. But if he was, well wouldn´t this be a coincidence . As I recall, Allan Heinberg was an O.C. writer responsible for shaping this comics-fan character, which drew Marvel’s attention. He ended up in talks with Marvel, leading to the inception of Young Avengers. I don’t know whether Heinberg is himself a Bendis fan, but YA, particularly in its initial arc, shows a lot of the Bendis influence, with the prominence of Jessica Jones and the great dependence on fallout from “Disassembled”. Fortunately, Heinberg is a superior researcher and dialoguist—arguably his dialogue is written in the trademark Bendis style, but with competence.
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