|
Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 11, 2006 17:53:37 GMT -5
P.S. : And therefore, the conflict would be basically the Avengers (minus perhaps a few turncoats) against S.H.I.E.L.D. ...
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 11, 2006 19:27:16 GMT -5
2nd P.S. : And, come to think of it, wouldn't the fact that they discovered that something's smell rotten within S.H.I.E.L.D. a perfectly good reason NOT to "be in bed" with them...?
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Aug 11, 2006 23:19:11 GMT -5
Well, since like I said earlier I can't make myself any MORE unpopular (I came onto an Avengers board and argued that Bendis wasn't quite so bad as people thought and CW was awesome for God's sake, it could only have been worse if I trumpeted Disassembled as the pinnacle of storytelling and Austen's run as pure genius ) I may as well continue. (I mean... 20 posts and already -1 karma ) Bendis is a great writer. Marvel has many, many better writers- personally I love Mark Millar and Mark Waid, for example. Bendis is a great writer= millions of people think this, and I don't disagree. In fact, the first comic I ever read was written by Bendis, so clearly I must have liked it enough Yes, he can skip over continuity, yes he has his favourites sometimes, and yes he can have bad characterization ON OCCASION, but he makes up for it with great storytelling. NA is the exception. NA is Bendis having consistently terrible characterization, with APPALING lack of continuity and shoving in his favourite characters everywhere, while disposing of those he isn't so fond of. I'm sure those people who liked Carnage are still outraged, not only at his pathetic death sequence- killed by someone who isn't even one of his enemies!- but also by the fact that he was already mangled in continuity before that- Vampiric? Maybe ultimate Carnage, Bendis! And this time, the stories aren't good enough. Normally they are, but on NA his stories are mediocre to average- never truly terrible, though. New Avengers is at best an average book, at it's worst an abomination. It is an average book, it is a completely rubbish Avengers book- because it's NOT an Avengers book. But while I hate what Bendis has done to my favourite super-team, I also hate the degree of bashing which goes on, far worse than he deserves. I keep buying his book for 3 reasons;l firstly I hold out a glimmer of hope, secondly I really, REALLY want to get an Avengers title each month, even an almost unrecognizable one.... and thirdly because this splitting into two titles makes me think MAYBE... MAYBE he can put together a REAL Avengers team and salvage some of this. So those are my two cents- people on this board are a lot more harsh than they really need to be. Avengers fans have endured a lot worse. I personally love Civil War... but I will always wonder... what would it have been like if the real Avengers were part of it. End Sermon can't say as I agree with a word herein, except maybe that Bendis is doing a terrible job on Avengers. And I'm tired, truly tired of people pointing to the sales. Given that the book has had numerous tie ins to events and every hot artist as well as marvel's arguably top two heroes in terms of sales featured in the title, it should be selling better than other books. And if you look at Kurt Busiek's Avengers relaunch, that sold well too without all the added incentives. Millions don't think Bendis is a great writer-maybe 100,000 or so. If it were millions, then NA would be pushing about ten times as many copies as it is now, so let's do without the hyperbole. Millions...eh, more people think Carrot Top is a genius than Bendis. Look at the numbers for his Vegas act (Carrot), trust me it's true. And what I find odd is that you are of the opinion that Bendis did a horrible job on AD, can't write Avengers very well, and has yet to do a good job, can't combine storytelling and characterization very well and has been rewarded with a second title for doing that horrible job and yet you can't understand why we're bashing him constantly?? Keep in mind, you REALLY LIKE him and said all these negatives about him. I mean when your admirers are calling your Avengers work pure crap, what should your detractors be saying, really? And keep in mind we get a fresh steaming load of monkey crap from Bendis every few weeks. I think we should be allowed to respond to every new biscuit he squeezes out appropriately...
|
|
|
Post by asgardian on Aug 12, 2006 0:27:25 GMT -5
God, i'm so sick and tired of this crap it's not even funny, guys. Where the heck is the team of heroes that we all knew and loved for decades on end... Amen to that, brother. I wonder if we all chip in would we have enough to buy 51% of Marvel?
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Aug 12, 2006 9:12:00 GMT -5
OMIGOD, Imperius! Your post was so evil, even Loki himself wouldn't have dared to type it! Every word was absolutely INFUSED with evil, and yet your post was completely accurate! We should call Bendis Carrot Top behind his back!
|
|
Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
|
Post by Ultron on Aug 12, 2006 12:22:06 GMT -5
Carrot Top actually comes up with his own material.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 12, 2006 14:39:46 GMT -5
Doctor Doom: I'm aware that Bendis doesn't script C.W. , but does anyone here thinks he wasn't heavily involved during the plotting of the event...? Does anybody here, truly, believes he's not, to use a cliche, "the power behind the throne"...? When it comes to Spidey's secret I.D. , as you yourself have said elsewhere, we'll have to agree to disagree. Again, and upon reflection, I think as well that a lot of fresh, exciting new S.M. stories can be written thanks to this, and I consider J.M.S. a wonderful writer. I just question the rationale behind Peter's decision. For me, it's hard to believe that he could, in fact, consider all the ramifications of this act & still put Mary Jane & aunt May at risk, EVEN if they would encourage him to do so. Gwen redux, anyone...? Regarding Hank Pym, I suppose it shouldn't come to anyone's surprise, as Mr. B. has stated in more than one occasion that he doesn't think much of the one and only original Ant-Man... And this is, yet another, thing that bothers me about Bendis as a writer, a thing which I've just realized: as a storyteller, he doesn't seem to believe in the power of redemption for any once fallen hero; not for Iron Man, whom he mostly characterizes as a "compulsive personality", due to his alcoholism, not for Wanda or Pietro and certainly not for Hank (he reduces his whole hero career to the moment he slapped Jan)... perhaps I'm forgetting someone else...? As a reader this bothers the heck out of me, since I happen to believe that a redeemed hero is all the more compelling (because of her/his humanity) & therefore inspiring...
|
|
Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
|
Post by Ultron on Aug 12, 2006 15:01:08 GMT -5
As a reader this bothers the heck out of me, since I happen to believe that a redeemed hero is all the more compelling (because of her/his humanity) & therefore inspiring... People this days - particularly kids - don't want to read about redeeming heroes, they want degenerates and degenerated, deconstructed, archetypes. The world has changed.
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Aug 12, 2006 15:40:35 GMT -5
So are we just coming back to the anti-hero days of the 90's (Punisher, Wolverine, Ghost Rider), or did we ever leave that period?
|
|
Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
|
Post by Ultron on Aug 12, 2006 18:02:53 GMT -5
So are we just coming back to the anti-hero days of the 90's (Punisher, Wolverine, Ghost Rider), or did we ever leave that period? To certain extent it's the F Miller syndrome. Everyone wants to do Darknight or Daredevil. Alan Moore, too, to a certain extent.
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Aug 12, 2006 19:11:03 GMT -5
You know, the world still needs a Superman, or a Captain America. Perhaps more than ever we need those kinds of romantic idealists as role models. Let's face it -- the real world is a pretty crappy place these days... I agree that dark, immoral, whatever sells in print and on television. Too bad, because it doesn't have to be that way (at least not on a full-time basis) -- a little redemption, as you stated, would certainly not be a bad thing.
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Aug 12, 2006 19:45:45 GMT -5
I think a positive character could become popular if presented the right way. In my deluded mind I was hoping, early on, that Bendis would write some confrontations between Wolverine and Captain America, with CA coming up on top. Needless to say, nothing even remotely like that occured.
I work with guys in their twenties and the ones close to 30 are all highly cynical and want everything dark dark dark, but the younger ones seem to want more uplifting things. I think things are turning around, slowly. Let's hope so. Most Americans are spoiled little brats who don't know what a real problem is. Even my generation doesn't know what a real problem is, when you look back at WW2 and things like that.
|
|
|
Post by asgardian on Aug 12, 2006 20:09:44 GMT -5
My great Uncle Walt can tell you all about the good ol' days. He sits in his rocking chair on the porch of his cabin in Kansas and whittles wood while puffing on his corn-cob pipe. Every so often he'll say "Dang! Knee's playing up. There's rain coming in!"
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Aug 12, 2006 20:42:16 GMT -5
Let me get back up off the floor from my laugh at asgardian's comment. OK, so maybe THAT kind of idealism is a little extreme. But I think bobc's point about the guys who were socialized by comics in the 90's is well-taken. I've said it before elsewhere -- there was a turning point in the Avengers when the Black Knight slew the Supreme Intelligence. That just shouldn't have happened...
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Aug 12, 2006 20:48:45 GMT -5
OMIGOD, Imperius! Your post was so evil, even Loki himself wouldn't have dared to type it! Every word was absolutely INFUSED with evil, and yet your post was completely accurate! We should call Bendis Carrot Top behind his back! Actually chrome dome would be more appropriate. and I just call 'em as I see 'em.
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Aug 12, 2006 20:49:47 GMT -5
Carrot Top actually comes up with his own material. more importantly, it makes sense within the carrot top universe. he never contradicts himself...
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Aug 12, 2006 20:56:37 GMT -5
I like dark gritty stories like Ultimates and Dark Knight Returns--if they are done well (and those were) but I also like the goody goody Avengers too. I loved the whole can-do attitude of Captain America--he was the guy you always wanted around when the chips were down. I have no idea who this wussy imposter is in the new Avengers--but the real Captain America needs to come out of hiding and kick his droopy winged behind to the curb.
My favorite thing Alan Moore ever did was Top Ten, which was absolutely stroboscopic in that it was equal parts dark and light, humor and sadness. Being able to show both sides of life is to me the mark of a great writer. If any of you have some extra cash and time on your hands, I would STRONGLY suggest getting the trade paperback of Top Ten.
Ua2--you put your finger on something that bothers me about Bendis' writing that I never could articulate: His refusal to write any redemptive character. There's a big difference between an interesting, failable character with flaws, and the pack of crybabies we are currenly suffering through. I hate the whole dreary tone of this book--it's not even interesting dreary. It's just a drag...
|
|
|
Post by dlw66 on Aug 12, 2006 21:04:26 GMT -5
Wonder Man, the Swordsman, Mantis, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, the Black Widow, etc. Time was the Avengers were based on redeemed characters and that underlying blackness only made the white stand out all the more.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong on Aug 12, 2006 21:05:55 GMT -5
I agree with dlw66... This brings up the crucial question: why keep spending money on comics that are permeated by this dark vision of the world...? I mean, to see that we only need to watch the news on t.v. , and if we still crave for more, why then, there are any number of movies, tv. shows, video games & books that can more than satisfy those kinds of dark cravings... Why would we need those comics...? They would be kinda redundant... Comics should be, above anything else, uplifting & fun!!! It is my contention that most of the people who support this industry (or at least, the Big Two) are we, the adults who are embarked on the impossible yet ever appealing quest of keeping a sparkle of our childhood alive!
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Aug 12, 2006 21:49:47 GMT -5
Well I think in general, Americans have been kind of angst ridden from the mid 90's on. I think creative people got on this kind of kick and never came out of it. The whole dark thing was exciting for a while but now it's like flip the frikkin record! I think at this point it's just frikkin laziness. Dark Phoenix was a killer storyline for it's time, but ten years later it was Dark Rogue, dark Xavier--and when they actually had a Dark Beast I was like come on guys, time for some original ideas!
Dark storylines are perfunctory and dullsville these days. I mean come on--Wanda flips out and destroys the mansion and all the superheroes just sit around moping, throwing in the towel? Even the death of Hawkeye was boring--he just looked all sad, grabbed hold of some flying retard and blew up--it was like he was so dreary he just decided to commit suicide. If he was going to act like that much of a loser, I'm glad he's dead!
And now Shield is bailing out the Avengers as they mope around in the background. I guess next issue we'll see Captain America listen to non-stop Morrissey records, while getting sloppy drunk and slitting his wrists! Wouldn't that be like so edgy?
|
|
|
Post by redstatecap on Aug 12, 2006 22:43:40 GMT -5
Cap listening to Morrissey! My GOD, what is this country coming to?
RSC
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Aug 12, 2006 22:51:29 GMT -5
I like dark gritty stories like Ultimates and Dark Knight Returns--if they are done well (and those were) but I also like the goody goody Avengers too. I loved the whole can-do attitude of Captain America--he was the guy you always wanted around when the chips were down. I have no idea who this wussy imposter is in the new Avengers--but the real Captain America needs to come out of hiding and kick his droopy winged behind to the curb. My favorite thing Alan Moore ever did was Top Ten, which was absolutely stroboscopic in that it was equal parts dark and light, humor and sadness. Being able to show both sides of life is to me the mark of a great writer. If any of you have some extra cash and time on your hands, I would STRONGLY suggest getting the trade paperback of Top Ten. Ua2--you put your finger on something that bothers me about Bendis' writing that I never could articulate: His refusal to write any redemptive character. There's a big difference between an interesting, failable character with flaws, and the pack of crybabies we are currenly suffering through. I hate the whole dreary tone of this book--it's not even interesting dreary. It's just a drag... here's something people tend to forget; many of moore's and miller's stories had both humor and many happy endings. end of born again has a happy smiling matt murdock. end of the elektra saga had her resurrected and purified. end of dark knight returns had a live batman training his troops to restore law and order. moore's last superman story has a happy ending for clark and lois. swamp thing was really often about abby and swampy being together. supreme was an affectionate love note to the superman stories of the fifties and sixites. tom strong was a consistently upbeat book. not all of their stories ended on a down note. why? because being down all the time is just as dull as having every story end on a high. in order for the audience to feel the lows more strongly you've got to give them some highs. what is the old quote? something like "how would we know the heights of joy without the depths of sorrow?" you need both sides. bendis doesn't get it. it's just depressing low after low. great for those who read their comics with a razor in one hand, but I like a little more contrast...
|
|
Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
|
Post by Ultron on Aug 13, 2006 7:54:15 GMT -5
I think things are turning around, slowly. Let's hope so. Problem is they're not reading Comics. They're reading manga and what not. The Direct-Market, and the pseudo-intelectualoid dark gritty mood it introduced - and i can't stress the pseudo part of it enough - basically kept all future consumers of Comics out. In this regard, the problem is severely structural and permeates the whole comics industry as a whole, starting right there with the distribution system (or more aptly, the lack of distribution system.) Anyone here who started reading comics out of everything but a dedicated Comics shop, raise your hand. I know i didn't.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 13, 2006 8:50:08 GMT -5
I don't think I mentioned the sales... did I? if so, I apologize. I never like to mention sales, I never go by that, I go by my own experiences. Hence why I have a GameCube for instance Heh heh heh. Okay, millions was a SLIGHT exageration BUt I'd still say more than 100,000. He really can be a good writer! No, no, no. I am of the opinion Bendis did a horrible job on AD, I have no idea if he can write the Avengers because I don't think I've ever seen him try, but lord knows he can't write his little band of favourites very well, has yet to do a good job ON AVENGERS, can't combine storyline and characertization very well ON AVENGERS and has been rewarded with a second title because though the stories may be mad, they make money. I can fully understand why he is being bashed, but it doesn't mean I like to see him bashed for things which have nothing to do with him. Or bashed beyond what he deserves. I don't agree with him getting a second title, but I can understand why he has it. Well the problem with that whole argument is that you are under the assumption that I REALLY LIKE him. He wouldn't be in my top ten favourite comic writers- I think he has done a brilliant job and a very good job on House of M and USM, and a terrible job on Avengers, but I don't think I've read much else of his. I like him okay, I hate him on Avengers, I certainly don't 'REALLY like him'. Oh, and Bendis's admirers are busy screaming that NA and AD are genius works of the pen without a single flaw. Please don't confuse me for those simpletons Naa, I don't. Because I mean, right now he takes 6 months to get to a point so if we had to wait, God Knows how long it would take Um... I do! Maybe I'm just naive but firstly I really, really don't think he is anything like the power behind the throne- I think he was involved in some of the plotting of the event but to be frank, I can't see Millar taking crap from Bendis. Of course he was involved, all Marvel's big writers are. Perfectly acceptable, understand your argument absoloutely- agree to disagree again. Of course. Hence him chucking Hank off the team. Another callous disregard for Avengers history. Very well thought out- I'd never actually thought of it like that before but now that you mention it I can see what you mean and I'm pretty sure you are right. Good points.
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Aug 13, 2006 13:47:18 GMT -5
I don't think I mentioned the sales... did I? if so, I apologize. I never like to mention sales, I never go by that, I go by my own experiences. Hence why I have a GameCube for instance Heh heh heh. Okay, millions was a SLIGHT exageration BUt I'd still say more than 100,000. He really can be a good writer! No, no, no. I am of the opinion Bendis did a horrible job on AD, I have no idea if he can write the Avengers because I don't think I've ever seen him try, but lord knows he can't write his little band of favourites very well, has yet to do a good job ON AVENGERS, can't combine storyline and characertization very well ON AVENGERS and has been rewarded with a second title because though the stories may be mad, they make money. I can fully understand why he is being bashed, but it doesn't mean I like to see him bashed for things which have nothing to do with him. Or bashed beyond what he deserves. I don't agree with him getting a second title, but I can understand why he has it. Well the problem with that whole argument is that you are under the assumption that I REALLY LIKE him. He wouldn't be in my top ten favourite comic writers- I think he has done a brilliant job and a very good job on House of M and USM, and a terrible job on Avengers, but I don't think I've read much else of his. I like him okay, I hate him on Avengers, I certainly don't 'REALLY like him'. Oh, and Bendis's admirers are busy screaming that NA and AD are genius works of the pen without a single flaw. Please don't confuse me for those simpletons Naa, I don't. Because I mean, right now he takes 6 months to get to a point so if we had to wait, God Knows how long it would take Um... I do! Maybe I'm just naive but firstly I really, really don't think he is anything like the power behind the throne- I think he was involved in some of the plotting of the event but to be frank, I can't see Millar taking crap from Bendis. Of course he was involved, all Marvel's big writers are. Perfectly acceptable, understand your argument absoloutely- agree to disagree again. Of course. Hence him chucking Hank off the team. Another callous disregard for Avengers history. Very well thought out- I'd never actually thought of it like that before but now that you mention it I can see what you mean and I'm pretty sure you are right. Good points. well you didn't quote sales specifically, but you did say he had millions of fans. presumably one would be linking that idea to the fact that he has a top selling book. and 100,000 seems pretty right to me. both companies tend to agree the number of people collecting comics is a fairly small number. I've heard numbers lower than a million total and given that a book like New Avengers moves 120k copies and is often the top seller among regular titles it doesn't seem out of whack. Also bendis' daredevil used to move less than half than that, so his fan base doesn't seem that large. here's the numbers for DD #66 www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=818about 53 K for the start of his golden age storyline... and when I say all those things about his work I mean in reference to Avengers and not overall. i don't care about his other work. he can do whatever he wants in powers or ultimate spidey. and to say you really like him, well you do like his work and collect it. I didn't mean to say you are a bendis zombie who would defend him against any charges, but rather you do like him enough to rally to his defense several times. I think that does make you a fan, which would mean you like him.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 13, 2006 13:52:51 GMT -5
Fair enough. Oh, though I do want to point out that bendis' run on Daredevil was VERY high acclaimed. Several reviews put it at better than Frank Miller's run on the title. Obviously acclaim doesn't matter, and I take yuor point about the sales and whatnot. I really can't defend him on Avengers, no... except to say that if you ever buy any of his other works, I can guarantee you will enjoy them more. And just for reference, I dont' like it when people automatically assume EVERYTHING he wrote is rubbish without even trying it. PS: It's funny how fanboyism works, isn't it? I mean no offence to anyone here, but over on Avengers boards we are whining that bendis destroyed our Avengers, over on Spidey boards they are whining that JMS and Joe Q want to destroy Spider-Man, over on X-men boards... well, I dunno... over on Fantastic Four boards they are complaining that JMS is destroying what Waid built.... Heh. Guess everyone thinks their title is being destroyed Maybe that makes it fair overall.... PPS: Just to note, we have the most reason to whine. Spider-fans have 3 titles so if they don't like JMS, READ THE OTHER ONES
|
|
|
Post by imperiusrex on Aug 14, 2006 15:04:05 GMT -5
Fair enough. Oh, though I do want to point out that bendis' run on Daredevil was VERY high acclaimed. Several reviews put it at better than Frank Miller's run on the title. Obviously acclaim doesn't matter, and I take yuor point about the sales and whatnot. I really can't defend him on Avengers, no... except to say that if you ever buy any of his other works, I can guarantee you will enjoy them more. And just for reference, I dont' like it when people automatically assume EVERYTHING he wrote is rubbish without even trying it. PS: It's funny how fanboyism works, isn't it? I mean no offence to anyone here, but over on Avengers boards we are whining that bendis destroyed our Avengers, over on Spidey boards they are whining that JMS and Joe Q want to destroy Spider-Man, over on X-men boards... well, I dunno... over on Fantastic Four boards they are complaining that JMS is destroying what Waid built.... Heh. Guess everyone thinks their title is being destroyed Maybe that makes it fair overall.... PPS: Just to note, we have the most reason to whine. Spider-fans have 3 titles so if they don't like JMS, READ THE OTHER ONES Bendis better than Miller on DD? must have something in my ears...waxy buildup or something. I read some bendis DD. The White Tiger story and parts of the Golden Age. If some critics think they're better than Miller's stuff, that is their right. I would hope that somebody eventually gets these reviewers off the crack pipe, though...
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Aug 14, 2006 15:46:14 GMT -5
BENDIS IS BETTER ON DAREDEVIL THAN FRANK MILLER?!!!!!!
Let me die. I have now heard everything.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 14, 2006 17:06:22 GMT -5
Told you he wasn't hated by reviewers . I'm pretty sure it was www.ign.com actually- now I can't say I agree or disagree, not having read DD during either run.
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Aug 14, 2006 17:10:45 GMT -5
Bendis is better than Alan Moore too. Stan Lee too.
|
|