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Post by Black Knight on Aug 4, 2006 14:26:27 GMT -5
For those of you not following the story of Hawkeye, let me recap a little. Hawkeye was killed like a putz in the Avengers Disassembled. Realizing the error they made, marvel backpedaled and brought him back to life in HOM. Now for those you not in the interview know, Bendis and Joe Q both said that HOM had not been planed when Avengers Disassembed happened, but later said they had always planned on bringing back hawkeye. Just another of the falsehoods those to like to spin.. Anyway not flash forward to today, Bendis and Joe Q have both stated that Clint will be back, but that Bendis will not be writing the return, yet another falsehood I guess. I present the return of Hawkeye. www.newsarama.com/WW_Chicago_06/Marvel/NA_26.html
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 4, 2006 15:54:05 GMT -5
Thud. Oh I passed out. Thought I read this crazy thing about hawkeye having died and come back from the dead a couple of times and then finding the scarlet witch, but that can't be right, let me just look at the screen again... Thud. can I join walt disney in the cryo tube and be defrosted when bendis is gone from the avengers??
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Post by bobc on Aug 4, 2006 16:11:37 GMT -5
No way, Rex. You have to stay here and suffer like the rest of us. I hear Rob Liefield is going to be handling the art.
Okay that was a lie--but you never know what the future might hold if we stay on this course.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 4, 2006 16:34:22 GMT -5
God, i'm so sick and tired of this crap it's not even funny, guys.
Where the heck is the team of heroes that we all knew and loved for decades on end...
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Post by bobc on Aug 4, 2006 16:54:05 GMT -5
I'm starting to question certain creaters' sanity at this point.
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Post by bobc on Aug 4, 2006 17:01:09 GMT -5
"No one's come back from the dead, having been murdered not once, but twice, by someone who was a friend that they loved, and had a romantic inkling towards when they first met - and then come back to deal with that," Bendis said.
Okay--after reading this statement, I am convinced Bendis is insane.
Killing off a character ONCE and bringing him back is a UNIVERSALLY despised comic gimmick and has been for 30 plus years at the very least. But doing it twice, and pontificatig over it like it's some highly innovative artistic triumph is the most assinine thing I've ever heard of.
Bendis has single-handedly destroyed the identity of this team and is now mangling characters TWICE OVER.
This guy is the worst thing that's ever happened to Marvel.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 4, 2006 19:41:45 GMT -5
After stopping altogether reading comics in the 90's, for a whole decade, and coming back seduced by Avengers v3 Busiek\Pérez, i'm now pretty much buying only 2 or 3 books.
I'm on the verge off stopping to read comics again, it just isn't fun anymore...
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Post by thew40 on Aug 4, 2006 22:20:05 GMT -5
Sounds interesting. I like how he's going to be getting into Clint and Wanda's heads regarding the whole situation.
~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 4, 2006 22:30:41 GMT -5
No way, Rex. You have to stay here and suffer like the rest of us. I hear Rob Liefield is going to be handling the art. Okay that was a lie--but you never know what the future might hold if we stay on this course. Nope. Checking out. Wonder what the future holds for me? the two most terrifying words... bendis-bot. a robot able to churn out fifty comics a month and not follow a single storyline. maybe I'll just go into a timeloop between Roy Thomas and Kurt Busiek...
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Post by Doctor Doom on Aug 5, 2006 6:39:12 GMT -5
.....Okay everyone, remember all that stuff I said about New Avengers not being that bad? You can officially consider me convinced and I humbly apoligize to everyone I ever attempted to argue with in the name of Bendis being a good writer. I'm not sure what's worse.... that now the ENTIRETY of 'Disassembled' has been proven, once and for all, finally to be for ABSOLOUTELY NO PURPOSE except to give Bendis his own team (I fought valiantly in the name of there being SOMETHING else.) or that Hawkeye will actually need to join the random assortment of characters who pass themselves off as Avengers. This depressed me so much I actually ordered 'Avengers Assemble v1' off Amazon this morning. Maybe I can pace out the twelve issues of Busiek's run over the next year, reading one issue after each New Avengers to calm me down and pretending they are new. Maybe.... PS: BUT I disagree with: Onslaught Heroes Reborn Clone Saga Sins Past 'The Twelve' Liefield CHUCK AUSTEN Seven things which are all far worse than Bendis. Especially Austen. Don't believe me? Go back and read 'Lionheart of Avalon' and 'Once an Invader'- if you can. They almost make Bendis's books seem acceptable. Almost.
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Post by redstatecap on Aug 5, 2006 11:12:23 GMT -5
OK, people. Who is complaining, and still buying the book? Seriously. You know who you are. If this product is acceptable to you, then by all means buy it. If this product is unacceptable to you, you have an obligation to drop it at this point. Because if you don't, this is what you have to look forward to for several years. And moreover, by continuing to purchase, you are also undermining the rest of us who want to see the necessary change happen. Think about it -- you are quite literally paying Bendis to run this book into the ground. I've already dropped New Avengers, so my vote is cast.
RSC
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Post by bobc on Aug 5, 2006 11:40:52 GMT -5
Right on, Red. I have completely changed my mind on Bendis--I think he is absolutely as bad as Onslaught and all that other crap--but of course those other terrible writers didn't manage to turn most of Marvel into garbage. Wasn't Liefield fired after 7 issues or something like that? At least he was gone before he could do more damage. Bendis appears to be spreading like cancer.
Remember when he likened writing the New Avengers to "taking a big dump?" Classy. Nice.
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Post by balok on Aug 5, 2006 15:08:58 GMT -5
He isn't the worst that has happened to Marvel, but he is as bad as Heroes Reborn. No characterization, no respect for the past, and not even respect for his own storylines, it sometimes seems.
I'd like to know what happened to Quesada. He was a good EiC once. But not lately. Is he someone else's mouthpiece?
Where's spin doctor when you need him? [1]
[1] Sorry, it's an inside joke...
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Post by thew40 on Aug 5, 2006 16:28:41 GMT -5
I still like the book . . .
And Balok, Quesada was Jemas' mouthpiece. Now he's pretty much running the show.
~W~
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Post by balok on Aug 5, 2006 18:35:30 GMT -5
And Balok, Quesada was Jemas' mouthpiece. Now he's pretty much running the show. Ah. So his good period occurred when someone else was reining him in. How unfortunate. I don't mean to suggest that you shouldn't like the book. I'm merely offering opinions about what I like (or don't like) about it. Busiek told much denser stories but it ruined his health (well, that and mercury poisoning). I'm not sure what the right amount of story per issue is, but I think Bendis is a little light. The idea that the Scarlet Witch might go nuts was fundamentally solid because she's got a history. But a lot of what Bendis did next in Dissembled seemed more like it was designed to stunt sales than tell good stories. Naif that I am, I believe if writers concentrate on good stories the sales will take care of themselves. Stunts aren't needed. In fact when I think of stunts I think of Fonzie jumping the shark... I've liked some of Bendis' stories since then and disliked others. The buzz on future issues suggests more for me to dislike than like. I'm not quite ready to cut the book - I'll probably last through Civil War - but as others have pointed out, the only way to get the authorship changed is to bite the bullet and stop supporting the current team. In particular I'm not sure I like the notion of limiting the storytelling to what the writer thinks the artist will do well.
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Post by thew40 on Aug 5, 2006 22:13:22 GMT -5
I think that "Civil War" may have hindered the book, to be honest. The more news I see out of WWC, the more I hear about projects and stories getting re-scheduled as a result. Honestly, I think that there was an intention to do more with this "New Avengers" cast, but "Civil War" came in and mucked it all up. Hence the "New Avengers Disassembled."
I also think - and this is my major arguement - that Bendis has really struggled to find his voice with this story. With each book he's written for Marvel/Icon, he's been able to really fit into the type of book he's writting.
For "Ultimate Spider-Man," he's been able to really capture being a teenager AND super-hero.
In "Secret War," he was able to bring in a lot of the political intrigue and mystery that he was aiming for (despite the uber-delays).
With "Powers," Bendis is out to create a realistic, nior-ish, average man feel and nails it.
"Daredevil," he was able to create logical and interesting change, maintaining a complex type of story-telling.
I think that he has just struggled with "New Avengers." I think he knows the kinda stories he wants to tell, the kind of adventures and drama he wants these characters to go through. And while (to me) these stories are fairly good, they could be better. It still feels like he's struggling to establish the kind of "hook" he had with his other projects.
And unfortunately, he has over 40+ years of history against him. That's gotta be tough. He's got all those years of great stories to either be equal to or better than.
"New Avengers," as I see it, was supposed to shed itself of continunity, allowing for accessible stories for newer readers. Perhaps not the best for long-term fans, that's for certain, but good for new readers.
My hope is that he's able to really capture the kind of vision he wants for "New Avengers." Perhaps after 20+ issues, he'll finally figure out what kind of story he wants to tell. Maybe with the creation the second Avengers title, he'll be able to balance out the super-heroics and intrigue better.
The fact of that matter is, ultimately, is that we don't know if any of the future issues are going to be good or bad or whatever. You don't know that. No one does. Can't we just give him the benefit of the doubt and wait and see what happens?
And please, for goodness sake, let's lay off Bendis. Despite what you may think of his writing, he's still not a terrible guy. He doesn't eat babies or run over animals on purpose or sell drugs to kids or kidnap people.
And he's also far from the worst thing to happen to Marvel.
~W~
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Post by bobc on Aug 6, 2006 9:39:05 GMT -5
ahhhhhhh--one "reason" after another after another for why this book is terrible. It is absolutely astounding that Bendis fans can sit and make excuses or point out some OTHER book he wrote that was good as if that justifies how bad the New Avengers is. This is like cult behaviour.
"Unfortunately he has 40+ years history against him. That's gotta be tough"
The poor thing--can someone pass me a hanky? I'm getting misty eyed. Oh we just cannot expect poor wittle Bendis to worry his pretty little head over Avengers history, can we? That's just be too much for him. Maybe he should be hospitalized for exhaustion--or better yet, placed into a luxury penthouse suite, where his moonie-like fans can feed him grapes and bask in the awesomeness that is Bendis.
If you cannot handle Avengers history you should not be paid to write the book. Period. God almighty--I have never seen anything like this.
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 6, 2006 12:53:17 GMT -5
I think that "Civil War" may have hindered the book, to be honest. The more news I see out of WWC, the more I hear about projects and stories getting re-scheduled as a result. Honestly, I think that there was an intention to do more with this "New Avengers" cast, but "Civil War" came in and mucked it all up. Hence the "New Avengers Disassembled." I also think - and this is my major arguement - that Bendis has really struggled to find his voice with this story. With each book he's written for Marvel/Icon, he's been able to really fit into the type of book he's writting. For "Ultimate Spider-Man," he's been able to really capture being a teenager AND super-hero. In "Secret War," he was able to bring in a lot of the political intrigue and mystery that he was aiming for (despite the uber-delays). With "Powers," Bendis is out to create a realistic, nior-ish, average man feel and nails it. "Daredevil," he was able to create logical and interesting change, maintaining a complex type of story-telling. I think that he has just struggled with "New Avengers." I think he knows the kinda stories he wants to tell, the kind of adventures and drama he wants these characters to go through. And while (to me) these stories are fairly good, they could be better. It still feels like he's struggling to establish the kind of "hook" he had with his other projects. And unfortunately, he has over 40+ years of history against him. That's gotta be tough. He's got all those years of great stories to either be equal to or better than. "New Avengers," as I see it, was supposed to shed itself of continunity, allowing for accessible stories for newer readers. Perhaps not the best for long-term fans, that's for certain, but good for new readers. My hope is that he's able to really capture the kind of vision he wants for "New Avengers." Perhaps after 20+ issues, he'll finally figure out what kind of story he wants to tell. Maybe with the creation the second Avengers title, he'll be able to balance out the super-heroics and intrigue better. The fact of that matter is, ultimately, is that we don't know if any of the future issues are going to be good or bad or whatever. You don't know that. No one does. Can't we just give him the benefit of the doubt and wait and see what happens? And please, for goodness sake, let's lay off Bendis. Despite what you may think of his writing, he's still not a terrible guy. He doesn't eat babies or run over animals on purpose or sell drugs to kids or kidnap people. And he's also far from the worst thing to happen to Marvel. ~W~ Ehh. I hate the whole "let's wait and see" attitude. Can't past behavior give a reasonably good expectation of future performance? I have liked James Robinson's work on a regular basis and have hated Bendis' work on a regular basis. That's good enough for me. By this token, we should buy several years worth of bendis' work even if we're not enjoying it because he may eventually hit his stride? Again I don't see it. And for every argument you make for bendis, I could make an equal and opposing argument against him. I read the daredevil/white tiger storyline and was amazed by the huge gaffes in the storyline. I really had never seen so much ridiculous convergence of implausible storylines in my life from the evidence that implicated the tiger to the over the top ending. I found the matt murdock ID saga to be endlessly repetitive and thought that was some of the worst writing I'd ever encountered in a comic. and the forty years of history never bothered roy thomas when he was writing the JSA, in fact he reveled in the intricacies of it all. Busiek when writing untold tales of spidey loved finding those rich nuggets of history that he could explore in full. mark waid sure had fun turning in the best Galactus story in years (imo) using the rich history of the characters when he made Johnny Storm a herald oh so briefly. i would think a writer should be both thrilled and honored to carry on a rich tradition. and finally, bendis may not be drowning kittens, but he is tossing out an avengers book that might as well be called "spider man, wolverine and their amazing friends" and doing every thing marketing wise reminscent of marvel's worst period, the 90s speculator boom. I can't wait until all the books start coming shrink wrapped again. and hey they might as well bring rob liefeld back. maybe he'll hit his stride working with bendis. great minds think alike and all that...
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Post by thew40 on Aug 6, 2006 13:17:57 GMT -5
Yep. I'm done here.
~W~
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Post by imperiusrex on Aug 6, 2006 16:08:44 GMT -5
tis a shame, but fare thee well. I just wonder how welcome we longtime avengers fan would be on bendis' jinxworld board. as I recall, it's pretty much a lovefest there and anyone who questions the vibe is a heretic...
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Aug 6, 2006 18:56:44 GMT -5
Ehh. I hate the whole "let's wait and see" attitude. Yeah, not to mention... haven't we already "waited and saw" what Disassembled was? Waited and saw what New Avengers was? Waited and saw, what HOM was? Decimation? Civil War? God knows what other 3$ alternacover collection crossover insanities out there... Is it going to start rocking after the 2635th attempt? And shouldn't these be pro's, thus hitting it on the 1st attempt? Isn't that why they're paid? Why we pay for these things? A price higher than ever before? If i do my job wrong, won't i get fired? Why should anyone give chances and pay out of their own pocket to be disapointed by the usual perennial failiures? Besides pure masochism i see no other answer.
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 6, 2006 19:58:48 GMT -5
If you were Kang and suddenly got whacked over the head with a 31st century wrench, and you all of a sudden started LIKING the Avengers and wanted to save them from their present circumstances, at what period would you land to obliterate the rest of what we know as their history? In other words, where was your last "liked it/tolerated" it storyline?
Since I'm speaking of the time master himself, I would say the Kang story in Vol. III was the last one I liked; however, I didn't care much for the Triune Understanding subplot that ran through much of Vol. III. So I might land in a time even earlier than, say, 6-7 years ago...
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 7, 2006 7:52:33 GMT -5
Are you done because we don't except the idea of "wait and see" anymore.. I have valued your opinion as one of the few people who actually had reasons for why you liked Bendis's NA, I might disagree with them, but by god you had better reasons then "because bendis is cool" or "it sells good". Hope you reconsider.
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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 8:47:32 GMT -5
I'm gonna stray from the herd here a bit and say I am getting really fed up with people treating Bendis like he's somehow special and above the most basic expectations for a comic writer. It's really irritating at this point. You want to write the Avengers but you can't be expected to have a clue about their history? Isn't that like saying it's too much to ask that the guy working on your car knows how to repair a car?
Look--all Bendis would have to is buy the CD rom, and spend a night or two reading the key storyarchs, right? Apparently that's too much to ask.
I'm starting to think it's snowing in Manhatten if you know what I'm sayin'...
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Post by von Bek on Aug 7, 2006 8:58:00 GMT -5
In the first NA storyarc to understand what´s the deal between the Purple Man and Cage one has to at least be vaguely familiar with Alias. So we readers are expected to know a writers own 'continuity', but the writer is not supposed to care about the book?
And there are plenty of boards 'out there' where one can even be banned for expressing anti-Bendis opinions, so becoming angry because some of us really think he´s another factor adding to the death of comics seems a little bit unfair...
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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 9:10:45 GMT -5
Well comics deserve to die if, after almost 3 years, "fans" are saying a writer needs more time to pull it together.
I have never seen expectations so low in my entire lifetime.
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Post by Black Knight on Aug 7, 2006 9:45:02 GMT -5
Well comics deserve to die if, after almost 3 years, "fans" are saying a writer needs more time to pull it together. I have never seen expectations so low in my entire lifetime. First I agree with you. Second I think it has to do with several things. 1) Chuck Austen was writing the Avengers right before Bendis. Even a monkey would have looked good next to Austen to some people. 2) Many people who are not on the boards, are lemmings, they are told that Bendis is great, that Wolverine and Spidey are in the book, and therefor the comic is great. 3) Many people don't have explainations for why they like NA, so instead of saying, I don't know why I like it the revert to the follow. "Wait and see" " your just a hater" "but it sells well" "Bendis is great" It is tiring, to try and point out problems to people who simple don't want to see them.
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Post by bobc on Aug 7, 2006 10:08:53 GMT -5
When I found out Bendis is going to write a SECOND Avengers title, after destroying the original title, I could only come to the conclusion that Marvel is giving us older fans the stiff middle finger. And they are.
I really don't care about Chuck Austen's run--he came and went and was just another one of those craptastic writers who will be forgotten eventually. I'm used to those downswings. But Bendis has proven to be something else altogether.
You know it's time for me to stop reading comics.
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Post by redstatecap on Aug 7, 2006 10:39:54 GMT -5
When I found out Bendis is going to write a SECOND Avengers title, after destroying the original title, I could only come to the conclusion that Marvel is giving us older fans the stiff middle finger. And they are... You know it's time for me to stop reading comics. Or take Joe Quesada's statement literally and read the back issues. I plan on doing exactly that. If Marvel doesn't want my business then Marvel won't get my business. I'd been out of comics for more than 10 years until a year or so ago. Therefore I missed all of Busiek/Perez Avengers. I've been picking them up and I have a nearly complete run, but I haven't read them yet, except for a couple, which were stellar. I'm going to read these one a month like they're the current title. ;D Ah, it's going to be great reading a real Avengers book again! There might even be enough of them to last through Bendis' tenure. RSC
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Post by dlw66 on Aug 7, 2006 10:41:28 GMT -5
You guys have strongly influenced me into considering dropping the Avengers, and for me that will be big. I generally read the solicitations each month for Marvel/DC books just to keep up vaguely on what's going on. I find that I generally don't miss too many books -- I'm often too busy (or too lazy) to read what I buy anyway. So, given that I really don't miss the multitude of books that I used to buy, and given that most of the classic stuff that I loved back when comics were good is now available in tpb's, Essentials, DVD-ROMS, etc., I may change the way I budget for comics and just go the larger paperback route. Man, I loved the Avengers.... And I would add to thew40 -- we have all read and given our opinions on the current state of the Avengers. However, I don't believe I have ever seen you post over on the Classic Avengers section of these boards. It seems like we have made the effort to meet you, but perhaps you haven't made the effort to meet us. Have you read The Celestial Madonna, The Kree/Skrull War, Under Siege, The Serpent Crown, or The Korvac Saga -- all of which are available in tpb form? You should...
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