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Post by bobc on Jul 19, 2006 9:07:13 GMT -5
I never saw the FF stories with Wolverine in them--I'm starting to avoid anything with him on the cover. I wish someone would tie him to a rocket and blast him into the Negative Zone or something. He grows tiresome, as do my posts.
If you ask me, and no one did, Bendis and his cult members should also be hurled into some other dimension along with Wolverine .
I can just see the Bendis moonies dancing around at airports, selling incense and spouting gibberish, with shaved heads.
OMIGOD my personality could use a little work. BAN ME.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 19, 2006 9:34:04 GMT -5
I have meant some fans of Bendis who are cool like thew, then I have meant what I refer to as the bendisheads. They are the fans who like Bendis because they are told he is cool. When you ask them why they like him, they refer you to his high sales, or to articles that are saying he is the hottest writer ever.
Those are the people I can't stand. What is interested is I once talked to one who claimed he was buying 100 copies of NA to make sure he was doing his part to keep Bendis on the book. Hence the reason I dismiss the sales and a qualification for quality.
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Post by bobc on Jul 19, 2006 11:01:08 GMT -5
Cults are so 1972.
On the other hand, the Bendisheads can send me money instead of buying 100 copies of NA. I will happily pretend to think Bendis is the Second Coming for the right amount of money. I'm already concocting a new thread gushing over the brash characterization of dead Hawkeye. It was like so awesome.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 19, 2006 11:34:39 GMT -5
I kinda see Wolverine in a sort of "reserve" member status. Kinda like "if we need him and if he's avaliable, then we'll call upon him." The good thing about Marvel these days is the dedication to cut down on Wolverine overall. Granted, he's still in four books ("New Avengers," "Astonishing X-Men," "Wolverine Origins," and "Wolverine"), but it's better than we he was in all four X-Men books, as well as at least two mini-series and his regular title.
With "New Avengers," I see him having the same status of Justice and Firestar back during early volume 3.
As far as "the cult of Bendis" is concerned, I know from experience that no writer can be perfect on every book.
Kurt Busiek is a fine example. His work on "Avengers," "Astro City," "Marvels," and "Arrowsmith" may have been brillant, but "The Order" and his "JLA" run were both pretty bad.
Grant Morrison, who is one of my favorite writers, did a great job on "New X-Men" and "JLA," but his "The Filth" was terrible.
~W~
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Post by bobc on Jul 20, 2006 14:10:49 GMT -5
I'm going to set up a therapy lab where I de-program Bendis culties. Everytime they read a panel of New Avengers, they will get the electric cattle prod. After they are stunned, I will rub their little snouts in some classic old stories, like Ultron Unlimited or Under Siege. If they react favorably, they will be fed a tasty bon bon or cookie. If they are not deprogrammed within five or six taser blasts, they will be deported to Siberia--I want to see them get their little Bendis fix there!
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 20, 2006 14:14:37 GMT -5
In an extreme "back to basics" movement, I have begun sitting with my laptop and Avengers DVD-ROM periodically and wading through this strip from the beginning (I did cheat and re-read #'s 8-9 [Kang and Wonder Man] first). Ahhhh..... it does feel good to be reading people I know and who register fully on my care-o-meter.
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Post by tschamp on Jul 20, 2006 15:44:40 GMT -5
I have read this post more than a few times and gave it quite a bit thought on why I like this line up. I have only brought one issue because it does interest me to see how this will play out. This is how I see the characters.
Captain America is the Avengers. He is the leader and moral center of the time.
Iron Man is the tie to the original group. He is also the techno brain of the out fit.
Spider woman is the haunted woman with a past. I like how the partied her new origin. It gives he more depth.
Cage is the "everyday" guy. He come from the streets and always fighting to keep himself going.
Sentry is Thor. I guess Thor went on vacation and Superman's twin bother was the filling. I really don't like this character.
Wolverine is the loose cannon. I really wish they would explore Cap's and Logan past together. That would have add more to each character, but I guess you can't have everything.
Ronin is Black Widow. I mean this guy is martial artist and thats it. This is another character that could go.
Spider man is the soul. Spider man motto is Great power come with great responsibility. How better than to live up to that is being a Avenger? I thought he would be used more as a reminder to the other what being a hero is about and the price of not being one.
For the record. After reading the Reviews from here and other sites Marvel dropped the ball big time with this group. The Avengers should interact and kick ass. My personal fav issue is the Jarvis issue after MOE decimated the Mansion. Jarvis was considering leaving and remember all the times he spent with vious Avengers. I always believe any group of hero's can make a team. It is how the are used makes the book so-so, OK, great, or collectors item.
Bendis had a line up that has human elements and mystery to it. Wolverine an Avenger?? The man that cuts heads off first and ask questions later? What is doing? Hitting on MJ and acting like he never been on a team. (Can we say X-men) I know some writers like create characters, but Bendis S-man is not original at all. Personally, I would love to see Hawkeye and Spider man go at it with "your momma" jokes during a battle than have S-man's innocent boy routine. "I can flying into the Sun" Sheesh! Just give him a red, blue, and yellow outfit already and be done with it.
Killing Hawk eye is/was stupid. I agree he was the heart of the team. I know there is another thread that has this, but here are my New Avengers.
Captain America Iron Man Spider man Hawkeye Cage Ms Marvel Spider woman RESERVIST Wolverine
(Sorry about the spelling errors. Dog trouble.)
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Post by simonwilliams on Jul 24, 2006 18:56:01 GMT -5
First, by way of introduction, I will say that I have a copy of every Avengers comic that has been published. That should place me firmly in the category of ‘old guard’ or whatever you call people who have loved the Avengers for a very long time.
Now saying that, I have to say that I don't find New Avengers excellent either, and I agree with someone I think it was in another thread that stated Bendis is much better at writing Ultimate Spider-man then he is the Avengers.
However, I disagree with the whole idea that you cannot have a group composed of mostly new Avengers. It is nice to have 2 staple characters like Cap and Iron Man, but new characters should always be the a big part of the Avengers. Over the years we have seen many roster changes. Frankly, I am glad Spider-Man finally got to be a real Avenger even if he does do better as a solo character. It would be nice to see him move on now though. I like Luke Cage and Spider-woman. I think they have the makings of being really good Avengers. Sentry is ok too. The whole story line with Ronin sucked big Twinkies though. Ronin never looked like a female, ever! Then oh...surprise, its a female. Come on people, you have to at least draw the character to look like they might be female. I read about Echo in Daredevil though, and I do like the character. Basically, I am saying that the New Avengers title is not all bad. However, I too have been unimpressed by the storylines, and characterization. The most intriguing plot thus far is the Spider-woman side plot. LOL. It makes one yearn for Ultron 795 to show up.
As to New Avengers vs. The Avengers, is there really a difference? I mean besides the hype. The Avengers have run through some really bad writing before. Gilgamish was an awful character in my opinion, and so was Dr. Druid. There have been some truly awful lineups. This lineup is actually quite good in comparison to some. Yeah, I know they don’t have their mansion, and I am still mad at Bendis for that lame ass Avengers Disassembled Storyline that was a rip off of the West Coast Avengers stories where Wanda goes crazy. To put it simply, he wanted to do something new, and he wrote the crappiest exit piece he could think of to get the ball rolling. I don’t mind characters dying for a good story, but Bendis has proved over and over again he doesn’t know what good is. Even his death of Gwen Stacy arc in Ultimate Spider-man tanked in my opinion. Still, the new tower is kind of cool, and that whacked out Sentry thing on top is kind of cool. Wolverine should never ever have been a member of the Avengers though, and that just shows you how well he doesn’t know the characters. Toss Wolverine out, and put together a few real stories in the span of at least two issues, and you have a fighting chance at making a memorable part of Avengers history here. Despite the sucky ass ending of the last Avengers the New Avengers does have all the elements of a good book. Which I must point out that some of the Avengers of the past could not ever have had. Think back to the worst spots in the Avengers title, and you will know what I am talking about.
All that being said, I love the Avengers and they deserve better then what they currently have. Yeah, the elements are there, but I don’t think Bendis can pull it together into anything worth reading at $3.00 a book. He just can’t nail the characters, and his stories have no real content it seems. I give the New Avengers run a solid B-. It needs to be an A.
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Post by redstatecap on Jul 24, 2006 22:40:57 GMT -5
...I disagree with the whole idea that you cannot have a group composed of mostly new Avengers. It is nice to have 2 staple characters like Cap and Iron Man, but new characters should always be the a big part of the Avengers. Over the years we have seen many roster changes. Frankly, I am glad Spider-Man finally got to be a real Avenger even if he does do better as a solo character. It would be nice to see him move on now though. I like Luke Cage and Spider-woman. I think they have the makings of being really good Avengers. Sentry is ok too. The whole story line with Ronin sucked big Twinkies though. Ronin never looked like a female, ever! Then oh...surprise, its a female. Come on people, you have to at least draw the character to look like they might be female. I read about Echo in Daredevil though, and I do like the character. Basically, I am saying that the New Avengers title is not all bad. However, I too have been unimpressed by the storylines, and characterization. The most intriguing plot thus far is the Spider-woman side plot. LOL. It makes one yearn for Ultron 795 to show up. As to New Avengers vs. The Avengers, is there really a difference? I mean besides the hype. The Avengers have run through some really bad writing before. Gilgamish was an awful character in my opinion, and so was Dr. Druid. There have been some truly awful lineups. This lineup is actually quite good in comparison to some. Yeah, I know they don’t have their mansion, and I am still mad at Bendis for that lame ass Avengers Disassembled Storyline that was a rip off of the West Coast Avengers stories where Wanda goes crazy. To put it simply, he wanted to do something new, and he wrote the crappiest exit piece he could think of to get the ball rolling. I don’t mind characters dying for a good story, but Bendis has proved over and over again he doesn’t know what good is. Even his death of Gwen Stacy arc in Ultimate Spider-man tanked in my opinion. Still, the new tower is kind of cool, and that whacked out Sentry thing on top is kind of cool. Wolverine should never ever have been a member of the Avengers though, and that just shows you how well he doesn’t know the characters. Toss Wolverine out, and put together a few real stories in the span of at least two issues, and you have a fighting chance at making a memorable part of Avengers history here. Despite the sucky ass ending of the last Avengers the New Avengers does have all the elements of a good book. Which I must point out that some of the Avengers of the past could not ever have had. Think back to the worst spots in the Avengers title, and you will know what I am talking about. All that being said, I love the Avengers and they deserve better then what they currently have. Yeah, the elements are there, but I don’t think Bendis can pull it together into anything worth reading at $3.00 a book. He just can’t nail the characters, and his stories have no real content it seems. I give the New Avengers run a solid B-. It needs to be an A. I don't think that any of the detractors are really saying "there cannot be an Avengers team that utilizes different and unusual members." I mean, that's been a feature of the team since day 1. The problems people are -- and I'm not even going to directly address the Dissassembled disaster -- the following as I see them: --In New Avengers, Bendis promptly ignored his own stated rationales for breaking up the Old Avengers. Tony was broke. Well, guess what, as soon as New Avengers started, Tony was somehow no longer broke and not a word has been breathed about it since. --The staple Avengers that Bendis kept on the team for carryover, particularly Captain America, have been window-dressing at best. OK, keep some old ones around and use them to introduce new ones, but USE them. Cap has been so underutilized and so badly written that he is just unrecognizable. It puzzles me as to what the reason is for even having him in the book. --Certain "new" members, particularly Spider-Woman, have justly been tagged as Bendis' pets and have gotten a disproportionate amount of the story time to the detriment of others. --Certain other "new" members are (most will agree) just there for the sales boost. And we know who they are. --So we have two old members who are mostly ignored and when they aren't, are mis-characterized. We have two "new" characters who are simply there to be walking ATMs, and also haven't been much used. We have "Man Suit Ronin." That leaves Bendis' pets Spider-Woman and to a lesser extent Sentry and Cage for him to actually write the meaty stories for, which is just how it seems to be going. This, to me, is not a functional team book in any way, shape, or form. --Character development and interaction has been pathetic to the point of non-existence. What has Mr. Bendis added to the inter-character dynamic of New Avengers? We've found out that Spidey is a quipster. Wolverine is grumpy. Sentry is sometimes there and sometimes not, but we knew that already. Cage is, like, "street." Spider-Woman has a great rack, if that now qualifies as character development. And that's about it. The sad fact is that if you want to read about character development on the New Avengers, you need to read JMS' Amazing Spider-Man, not new Avengers. There's been more ( much more!) character development in four or five issues of ASM than there has been in 22 issues of NA. --Did I mention "Man Suit Ronin?" --Lack of accomplishment. In 21 issues plus an annual, arguably the Avengers accomplished one thing for themselves, defeating the Collective. And that's arguable. Several other storylines were written so that the Avengers could not deal with the problems placed in front of them. That's just bad writing, plain and simple. --Storylines are stretched out and decompressed to the point where people end up saying, uh, what was the point again? The Raft breakout? Sixty supervillains escape? Hello??? Two years have gone by and not one thing has been done with it. Two plots have been "resolved" in 22 issues including the annual: the Collective plot, and the minor "Blonde Black Widow" sideplot. Additionally the Sentry plot is partly resolved, but he's more like a work in progress. The faults endemic to the New Avengers are so numerous and so huge that I just can't agree that they should be overlooked in the interests of getting one's monthly Avengers fix. The more I look at the totality of two years of this book the more I realize it stinks. RSC
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jul 25, 2006 8:14:01 GMT -5
New Avengers isn't as bad as it seems to be perceived.
It's worse.
People are still buying above the 100k's, after all.
Much better written books sell alot less.
It's unnaceptably misscharacterized, mediocrily plotted, irregularly pencilled, obscenely hyped and what's worse, unbelievably entediating.
Yet it still sells 100k. It's the 90's all over again. Sh!t sells.
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Post by simonwilliams on Jul 25, 2006 12:24:37 GMT -5
New Avengers isn't as bad as it seems to be perceived. It's worse. People are still buying above the 100k's, after all. Much better written books sell alot less. It's unacceptably misscharacterized, mediocrily plotted, irregularly penciled, obscenely hyped and what's worse, unbelievably entediating. Yet it still sells 100k. It's the 90's all over again. Sh!t sells. I totally agree, but there still have been worse Avengers archs and line ups. The one thing I regret is that I cannot stop buying the book. Why you ask? Well, I am a completest. I have them all, and if I stop...I no longer have them all. LOL. I am telling the truth here! When I say all, I don't mean Vol. 3 either. Besides, I am still hoping that Bendis gets jerked off the book, and then someone can do some amazing things with the set up that I think is still pretty solid. My biggest regret is I would have liked to see more of Geoff Johns vision of the Avengers. To that end, I am now reading more DC comics then I ever have in my life. So, Marvel may make my one forced sale a month, but I guarantee they are loosing lots of dollars from me for I dropped everything else I was reading in the normal Marvel U. BTW, I want to state that I agree with the fellow that said that Austin run flash back to Hank's wife beating days was just stupid. Matter of fact, I will go further and say they have done Hank Pym a great injustice all these years. Not only do they want to dwell in the worst part of his history (which was at least 3 real decades ago people), but he is a man that has created 3 viable superheroes and a killer robot. Yet has failed to make any scientific discoveries in decades. I have a great idea for Hank Pym, but I'm holding out for Marvel to make me a writer. LOL. Baring that I guess I could be persuaded to sell the idea.
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Post by bobc on Jul 25, 2006 13:32:42 GMT -5
Simon--it's true that there have been worse runs, but nobody ranted and raved about those runs. They called a spade a spade.
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Ultron
Reservist Avenger
"Die, Humans!"
Posts: 196
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Post by Ultron on Jul 25, 2006 14:04:57 GMT -5
Correct. Admitedly, i stopped reading comics altogether during the 90's, only returning to comics by interest in the Busiek\Pérez run. Although pretty much just consuming 3 to 4 comics a months, i'm pretty closed to giving up altogether just like the 90's.
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Post by simonwilliams on Jul 25, 2006 15:20:09 GMT -5
Correct. Admitedly, i stopped reading comics altogether during the 90's, only returning to comics by interest in the Busiek\Pérez run. Although pretty much just consuming 3 to 4 comics a months, i'm pretty closed to giving up altogether just like the 90's. I gave up on comics from 1992-2001. At which point I picked up Ultimate Spider-Man of all things. I think it was issue 6 or so. My reasons for not reading comics was all the gimicks, along with the Hall Jorden thing, and it was just getting to be to many titles. It was a big mess. Anyway, I think it is a bit ironic that Bendis was the one that rekindled my love for comics, and now it is the same guy ruining the current Avengers. My theory now is that I will only read what I like. If things get out of hand or they start doing huge crossovers I drop the title. I let myself get sucked into the Infinate Crisis thing, and frankly I think it sucked. However, Identity Crisis was my kind of story. Anyway, didn't mean to turn all DC on you there for a second, LOL. What I mean to say is don't let them ruin your love for comics. There is somewhere out there a book worth reading that isn't crossing over into every stupid event they can think of. For the record, my new take on events is that I prefer them to stay within a limited series. Of course that would harm sales wouldn't it. Bah. Your not selling me anymore books by pulling that crap. I just stop reading what I was reading to begin with. Sorry to digress again. So much pent up rage. LOL. Anyway, don't stop reading! As a side note, when I started reading again I went back and bought all those issues of the Avengers I missed. I still have not read all of them though, but if the current crossover crap and Bendis keep it up I will have plenty of time to catch up on those.
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Post by asgardian on Jul 25, 2006 23:32:49 GMT -5
Is it really that bad? As bad as "they" say it is? No. Avengers has been worse; the Heroes Rebored era comes to mind and that wasn't so very long ago. And before that was the Harras run which I did not enjoy at all. But it isn't really that good, either. It's kind of "Avengers Lite" The stories don't resonate and the characters are portrayed inconsistently. You just nailed it in one. Yes, some runs were worse - a la Harras and Liefield - but NA is still poor in terms of knowledge, pacing, characterisation (relates to knowledge) and above all continuity. Bendis simply doesn't understand the team or for that matter how to write a team book. To prove my point, consider how much Busiek achieved in his first 12 issues. Now look at Bendis' effort. There is a marked difference.
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Post by balok on Aug 5, 2006 15:14:26 GMT -5
I am moving towards the "Yeah, it's that bad" camp. Previously it was a bad phase I could tolerate for the sake of having all the issues (well, all of them back to around 90 and many of them before that). But I may have to grit my teeth and drop the book to do my small part to get Bendis off the book. I like his stuff less and less the more I think about it (although I'm in the minority, apparently, in liking the recent Luke Cage story from #22).
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