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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 16, 2006 13:24:58 GMT -5
At the risk of getting attacked I wanted to post this:
Is New Avengers REALLY that bad? (Please, no one-word posts with 'yes' as the answer)
Okay, first thing out of the way; it's not the Avengers. It's not the Avengers we all know and love, it is just... not.... them.
But with that gone...
As a seperate title, NOT an Avengers title... is it really that bad? I find utter, total hatred of it on many forums, but I've found it to be alright so far. Bendis can be on and off with his characterisation- sometimes good, sometimes absoloutely hideous, but in general I have found the title to be entertaining enough. Granted there are wasted issues, and Bendis has his pet favourites filling out the team, but...
I guess what I'm asking is, when you seperate it from the Avengers and forget that Bendis had to disassemble the REAL team in order to produce it... is the New Avengers really that bad?
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Post by bobc on Jul 16, 2006 17:47:44 GMT -5
It's boring. Plodding. Terrible dialogue. Zero action. No chemistry between characters.
I'm not trying to be a pain, but you did ask. It's as if Satan was driving my hand towards the keyboard...
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 16, 2006 22:34:57 GMT -5
New Avengers is a bad comic, and I'd like to confess to all those assembled that I spend my $3 a month on it anyway. Perhaps it's a form of masochism, perhaps compulsive spending. Whatever my sickness is, I certainly do not derive $3 worth of enjoyment from it. As a comparison, if I went to the Dairy Queen and ordered my favorite Blizzard concoction and it cost me roughly $2.99, I would get far more satisfaction out of that ice cream than I do out of NA. The time to consume each takes approximately the same, and I find that if I do either too fast, I get a headache. But, in the end, I get more utility from the ice cream than from a book that I can own forever.
Bobc hit the nail on the head... this book isn't good whether it's supposed to be the Avengers or not, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why it's one of Marvel's top sellers month in and month out (although I do contribute to that situation -- as I said, I'm sick). If today's readers/buyers are so shallow that they'll pick it up simply because Wolverine is on the covers or because Spider-Woman has big boobs, then comics as an art form/literary venture are really in a sad state of affairs.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 16, 2006 22:37:13 GMT -5
Hear that? That's the sound of a can of worms opening, my friend. Heheh. I like "New Avengers" for reasons I've listed in another thread. So my short answer would be "No." My long answer would be "No, it's in my opinion that it's not really that bad. It's not the best comic on the market right now and I can certainly see why old-school fans would have a problem with it (and I respect their opinions greatly). However, I still enjoy it for the most part, though the pacing is a little crappy and the characterization and character interaction could use a shot in the arm. I like the stories a lot, and I think it has a lot of great energy behind it." New Avengers is a bad comic, and I'd like to confess to all those assembled that I spend my $3 a month on it anyway. Perhaps it's a form of masochism, perhaps compulsive spending. Whatever my sickness is, I certainly do not derive $3 worth of enjoyment from it. As a comparison, if I went to the Dairy Queen and ordered my favorite Blizzard concoction and it cost me roughly $2.99, I would get far more satisfaction out of that ice cream than I do out of NA. The time to consume each takes approximately the same, and I find that if I do either too fast, I get a headache. But, in the end, I get more utility from the ice cream than from a book that I can own forever. As much as our opinions differ, dlw66, I had to chuckle at this. I feel I should respectfully point out that big boobs and Wolverine have been a big selling point for quite a while. I understand what you mean, though. I really hope that's not the only reason people are buying it. ~W~
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 16, 2006 22:40:54 GMT -5
I don't think it's necessarily a can of worms -- he asked, bobc and I answered. You are correct though, W, that all of this is on another 2-3 threads.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 16, 2006 22:44:09 GMT -5
I don't think it's necessarily a can of worms -- he asked, bobc and I answered. You are correct though, W, that all of this is on another 2-3 threads. Too true, but as soon as I saw the thread title, it was exactly what entered my head. This would be a good time for me to point that the great thing about this board is that everyone here is (for the most part) pretty respectful of each others opinion. As long as it's more than "it's good because I said so," everyone seems to really respect what the other is saying despite differences in opinion. ~W~
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 9:37:25 GMT -5
Are we really at a pop culture point where the bar is set at "not that bad?" What ever happened to exciting, innovative, fun, interesting or, god forbid, excellent? Is that an "old school" idea?
Maybe we go a little overboard in bashing Bendis (it's FUN!!), but I don't see anybody really wetting themselves over New Avengers. It's been one big yawn.
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 10:36:22 GMT -5
Thew40--I'm glad you're here. I like the civility of the people on this forum, too. I'm not so in love with my own opinion that I'd attack somebody who didn't agree with me. I notice that kind of nastiness on a lot of forums, unfortunately.
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Post by tschamp on Jul 17, 2006 12:05:32 GMT -5
Well, I am just starting collecting again and New Averngers are on my list. I have always liked the Avengers title and Spiderman. While, I haven't personal read any issues before 21; I have read the reviews on vious sites. I am also not familar with Bendis writing.
With that all being said, I found issue 21 decent. Thats about it. Nothing special. I enter this with no expections. Just feeling out the story line right now. I find the artist boring and lacked style. I not going to say yes or no I like the New Avengers, but I think that potential is there to have this team be a icon in Marvel storylines if handle right. Tony and Peter story, Steve and Jessica story, Stenial mystery, Cage character, and Wolverine attuide would be intresting story. I will continue to read and see.
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 12:12:23 GMT -5
Ts--you know for two years now people have been saying that something good might happen in New Avengers.
There's an old saying "someday never comes..."
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 17, 2006 12:34:32 GMT -5
bob, That has been one of my big issues with NA and some of the fans of the comic (thew is not included in this). Their response to all the problems I have with the comic, is just wait it will be explained, or this team is so cool, it has such great potential. My question back to them is how long am I supose to wait for the questions to be answered, how long am I supposed to wait for the team to reach this great potential, it was always just one more issue, till I just started laughing at them. Now the team with "great potential" will not even exist anymore after CW. Guess that never happened.
I have grown tired of the plodding pace of this series, of the poor charateritation, of bendis always wanting to center on one charater. This is not a good comic, it has the marks of a comic that has some interesting ideas, that were never fully developed.
In fact that is my major problem with this comic, all of them feel like unfinished drafts, that need plot holes filled in, and questions answered.
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 14:46:40 GMT -5
uhg. Sigh.
Doesn't this kind of cult mentality around Bendis strike anybody else as really strange? What other writer could get away with this for literally years? Every other highly popular writer out there, IMO, deserves the rep they have--but I just don't get why Bendis is so popular. Lord knows the Avengers have had some mediocre writers over the years but they weren't discussed like they were the Second Coming.
Could you imagine someone asking "Is the Ultimates really that bad?"
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 15:28:26 GMT -5
AND ANOTHER THING:
Was it really a good idea to fill the roster up with (mostly) people who have never been Avengers before? At what point does replacing members destroy the identity of the group?
The Fantastic Four survived temporary members when one of the originals took time off. BUT it was never more than one at a time. If you replaced three members, would it still be the Fantastic Four? No it wouldn't. Would people like it? No--they'd be PO'd.
So why was it necessary to flood this team with new people?
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 17, 2006 15:33:47 GMT -5
uhg. Sigh. Doesn't this kind of cult mentality around Bendis strike anybody else as really strange? What other writer could get away with this for literally years? Every other highly popular writer out there, IMO, deserves the rep they have--but I just don't get why Bendis is so popular. Lord knows the Avengers have had some mediocre writers over the years but they weren't discussed like they were the Second Coming. Could you imagine someone asking "Is the Ultimates really that bad?" I have been collecting comics, and talking about comics for over 25 years, and I have never seen the cult following like with Bendis. People blindly believe that everthing he touchs turns to gold. One of the big jokes, has been that people will by a turd as long as it has a cover on it and say it is written by Bendis. Another was that people would buy blank pages if it was said to have been written by Bendis and then say how great and creative it was. Marvel has created this cult, buy saying how great Bendis is. The theory that if you say it enough it will become true in peoples minds, has been proven. In my opinion he is a good writer of crime noir, but a horrible writer of superhero books, all his truly critical success has come when he wrote crime noir type books, and all his "critical failures"(in my opinion) have come when he tried to write superhero team books.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 17, 2006 15:37:23 GMT -5
AND ANOTHER THING: Was it really a good idea to fill the roster up with (mostly) people who have never been Avengers before? At what point does replacing members destroy the identity of the group? The Fantastic Four survived temporary members when one of the originals took time off. BUT it was never more than one at a time. If you replaced three members, would it still be the Fantastic Four? No it wouldn't. Would people like it? No--they'd be PO'd. So why was it necessary to flood this team with new people? Ahhh another issue I have raised before. When I said these arn't the avengers that Bendis just created his pet team, people whined and said not true, that others have created there own charaters. My responce was yes they added there own charaters to the team, maybe one or two, now lets look at NA. Cap-Ok we are good Iron Man-still good Spider-Man-well technically he was a reservasit Luke Cage-new Avenger Spider-woman - new avenger Sentry - new Avenger Ronin - new Avenger Wolverine - New avenger So Bendis has added 5 new members on one team, some could argue 6. Now aside from the first team and Cap kookie quartet. When has there been a large number of new members added in a total revamp of the team. Oh yea never...
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 16:12:52 GMT -5
Don't forget Daredevil--or did he never actually join? what about Iron Fist? I stopped buying this book months ago so I don't know. I remember some discussion about who the new member was going to be way back when but as the months flew by at glacial speed, I stopped caring.
I gotta say Spiderman as an Avenger, whether reservist or not, is a stretch. His whole thing was that he'd been approached many times, only to decline.
I also think that when Wanda, Pietro and Hawkeye joined it was so early on that the Avengers really weren't an established entity yet. Regardless, those new Avengers worked and helped establish this book as one of Marvel's flagships.
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Post by balok on Jul 17, 2006 16:36:08 GMT -5
Is it really that bad? As bad as "they" say it is? No. Avengers has been worse; the Heroes Rebored era comes to mind and that wasn't so very long ago. And before that was the Harras run which I did not enjoy at all.
But it isn't really that good, either. It's kind of "Avengers Lite" The stories don't resonate and the characters are portrayed inconsistently. I still buy the book, and I will likely continue to do so. I have the Avengers back to #100 continuously and back to around #185 bought new. I have a few issues scattered before that. So I'm hard core.
Bendis? (I like to replace his ! with a ? because like a lot of other folks I don't see the rave appeal) won't be on the book forever. It will be good again one day and after that it will be bad again.
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Post by bobc on Jul 17, 2006 17:11:35 GMT -5
I have to guiltily confess that Heroes Reborn was worse. But everybody knew it was bad, didn't they? Did anyone actually like "Heroes Reborn?" I asking seriously.
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Post by thew40 on Jul 17, 2006 21:56:15 GMT -5
I wonder how "New Avengers" will be looked at after Bendis is gone. Perhaps, as a whole storyline and series, it will be a better book to some people.
Personally, I'm really enjoying the overall Marvel Universe right now. I'm loving how all these events and books are interconnecting - Disassembled/New Avengers, Secret War, House of M, Decimation, The Other, Planet Hulk, and now Civil War. Despite not all of them being the best quality (Disassembled comes to mind), I think it's a really cool era for the Marvel Universe. Even with all the interconnectivity, it still seems fairly easy for new readers to get in on it (i.e. crossovers not requiring you to read all tie-in issues to understand).
"New Avengers" seems to be at the center the current Marvel Universe.
~W~
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 18, 2006 4:27:01 GMT -5
Personally, I'm really enjoying the overall Marvel Universe right now. I'm loving how all these events and books are interconnecting - Disassembled/New Avengers, Secret War, House of M, Decimation, The Other, Planet Hulk, and now Civil War. ~W~ Have you seen the first CW video trailer ? I downloaded it from Marvel's website and it quickly mentions all the crossovers, with a line like "The Hulk vanished [...] now, disassembled, decimated, the heroes have to fight their darkest hour". Even though I think there have been darker times in the past, I think that was a very powerful image to point out just how much the heroes of the M.U. have been withstanding recently. I really wonder if C.W. is the final straw or if there will be something else afterwards, and if (and when) things will become peaceful again. Going back in topic, I don't like NA much, for reasons stated many times elsewhere. Still, I have read worse (I must admit I like NA more than the Austen run just before Disassembled. At least Bendis is only screwing up 2 / 3 classic Avengers, Austen had them all at his mercy !)
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Post by Doctor Doom on Jul 18, 2006 4:46:10 GMT -5
Lotta responses here, and all very mature and reasoned answers. Strange, strange, strange forum It's a great thing though, I've never seen a forum as.... civil as this. Well before anything else, I do feel it's worth pointing out that as said by shiryu, if nothing else surely you must admit New Avengers are better than Austen's run. Like, you know, Hank being reverted back to someone who the entire team treats with hostility because of the whole Wasp thing, Hawkeye and Jan getting an affair out of NOWHERE, and, in general, trashy stories. Yes NA is slow, but I still think it is enjoyable enough as a book. I've read much better, I've read far far worst. At least he hasn't given Avengers their own... <seeks comparison> ... 'Sins Past'. Which I'm sure Spidey fans will know of And yeah, I do realise he has his pet favourites and randomly throws them in as New Avengers, but I actually don't mind the new team. Except Wolverine, who should never be a member. And I kinda mind Spidey but as said before, he was a reservist. Along with half the marvel Universe. Sometimes though, people go out of their way to criticise Bendis. NA #21 was solid enough, and I bet if a different writer had written the same story it would have gotten a more positive response. People complain that Bendis doesn't do action, then he does a fight with SHIELD and the same people say "We just saw that in Civil War #1! Rubbish" To be fair there was no-one else to fight! Oh good lord I probably sound like a Bendis fanboy.... Well I'm not! I did enjoy Ultimate Spidey but the only writers I am huge fans of in more recent days are Waid and Miller! (Although my favourite Avengers writer is Busiek.) So to summarise.... I think people are a little unreasonable in their hatred of Bendis. But yes, he has a freaky cult following who ignore his many faults.
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 18, 2006 10:30:33 GMT -5
I think there was a time when John Byrne was recognized as THE writer (and artist) at both Marvel and DC. He certainly has a lot of power in retooling the DC Universe after the first Crisis, and I feel Marvel gave him many liberties with FF, X-Men, and WCA. But, I also would say I have mostly fond memories of what Byrne did back then (in the mid/late 1980's for you young'uns out there). Bendis, at least on the 'net boards, seems to have a following. And, sales are the final say-so on if a writer stays or goes (generally speaking -- we've all been tormented by people who were allowed to stay too long!).
Why was the "New" added to the title in the first place? After two years is it still "new"? Maybe Marvel thought bobc's favorite term, "Craptastic" wouldn't fly on the masthead of a comic...
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Post by Van Plexico on Jul 18, 2006 12:03:21 GMT -5
I did ask Tom Brevoort recently about how long "NEW" would remain in the title, and he said they had no plans to take it off.
So I imagine it will be there until the book takes another big change of direction, a la NEW AVENGERS, Heroes Reborn, Vol. 3 Kurt/George, etc.
Or as long as the book keeps selling like it is.
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 18, 2006 14:14:12 GMT -5
Unfortuantly you are right Van. As long as marvel keeps setting this comic up to succeed we will be stuck with the craptatic Avengers. By setting up to succeed, I mean. Putting Wolverine and Spider-Man in the book, and hyping the comic more then any other Marvel comic has been hyped before.
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Post by bobc on Jul 18, 2006 14:16:28 GMT -5
I was just thinking the other day that Wolverine just isn't getting enough exposure
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 18, 2006 14:24:54 GMT -5
I was just thinking the other day that Wolverine just isn't getting enough exposure LOL, your right, maybe he sould be on FF, or perhaps he sound have another book, it can be. Wolverine and Spider-man: Over-exposed team-up.
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Post by bobc on Jul 18, 2006 15:09:11 GMT -5
He's joining the Power Puff Girls next month. Stay tuned
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 18, 2006 15:14:33 GMT -5
OH god, then he will be on kids next door, and maybe he will join W.I.T.C.H. LOL... Oh that would be X-23
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Post by dlw66 on Jul 18, 2006 15:44:16 GMT -5
Don't forget -- Wolverine was in FF for a couple of issues, with the then-way-overhyped Ghost Rider (gee, can't wait for the movie to come out ... I hear the toys are about to invade every store in the world). But, since the art was by the way-cool Arthur Adams and it was all tongue-in-cheek, it was tolerable. I think we're supposed to be taking NA seriously ??
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Post by Black Knight on Jul 19, 2006 7:42:15 GMT -5
Don't forget -- Wolverine was in FF for a couple of issues, with the then-way-overhyped Ghost Rider (gee, can't wait for the movie to come out ... I hear the toys are about to invade every store in the world). But, since the art was by the way-cool Arthur Adams and it was all tongue-in-cheek, it was tolerable. I think we're supposed to be taking NA seriously ?? Yea everyone knew that the FF thing was just a few issues, so it was sort of fun, however, we have been in the NA twilight zone for almost 2 years worth of issues now, and yet nothing has happened. I mean it took them what 16 issues to put together the team that was shown on the cover of issue 1. Please tell me how that is good writing?
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