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Post by Black Knight on May 12, 2006 8:12:54 GMT -5
Hmm, looks like after 6 pages we are starting to repeat ourselves here and there, may be we should really go back and talk about NA 18 or open another thread. Well there is only so much you can talk about before you start to branch off. And repeating oneself is not surprising, with over six pages, people are bound to miss posts which prompts repeated information. Just par for the course.
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Post by dlw66 on May 12, 2006 8:19:16 GMT -5
I feel this thread is so long because there is a lot of passion on the topic. We have some posters who are vehemently against Bendis' handling of the book, and some defenders of his work as well. My biggest complaint is that of the 75+ "members" on these boards, we're only hearing from a handful on a regular basis. I'd like to see some of our casual readers get out of their passive mode and put some thought into these arguments. Who knows, maybe Marvel reads this stuff? You never know... But, for those of us who want our Avengers returned to us, a small number of "squeaky wheels" aren't going to get any grease.
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Post by von Bek on May 12, 2006 8:26:23 GMT -5
"Disassmebled" steemed from the loss of her children, not her desire to have more. As paper-thin as the story was, that was the very clear point. I will have to disagree here. Like BK already stated Wanda had dealt with the loss of her children and overcame it. And it seems BMB missed the whole point of the Dark Wanda storyline in WCA. The turning point there was when Wanda found out that her family live, that seemed so happy from the outside, was a fraund and have been one from the very beginning. Her husband was a machine, and after being rebuilt as a soulless android even more so. Her children aren´t real children, but fragments from a devil´s soul. And that was too much for her, not that the children have been erased from existence, because Thomas and William weren´t real to begin it. First of all, let's not use the term "retarded." It's offensive and de-values your otherwise respectful post. I wasn´t trying to offend anyone, sorry if it came across that way, but Jan was acting not only like a drunken fool, but also like someone with mental disorder. Secondly, there really are ice cold, professional-driven women like Maria Hill. Women that you just hate. She's not exactly a hero, you know. Here you misunderstood me, I know that there are ice cold, professional-driven women like Maria Hill, but they, like all females in BMB comics, are not likable characters, like you said: Women that you just hate.I'm honestly having some problems understanding what point everyone is trying to make with Bendis and female characters. What is the point? That he makes them villians? That he treats them poorly? No, that he makes them weird and not likable. You know, Chris Claremont has Jean turn into the Phoenix and die; turns Goddess Storm butch, gets rid of her powers, de-ages her, and then turns her into a Mutate slave; has Pyslocke move into the body of a more sexy character, kills her off without reason and then returns her back to life; has Rogue, female character who can't touch anyone without sending them into a comma; and we could go on and on. Seems like he treats his female character just as poorly as Bendis supposed does. But how come no one is complaining about him? Because he´s not writing Avengers, new or old? And Storm was a capable leader and strong personality; Rogue strong enough to, even with the troubles with her powers, become a superheroine, after growing up as a villain under the influence of Mystique. Kitty Pride, Sage, not one of them is so messed up as BMB women. And try reading "Powers." That'll show you that he hates guys as much as girls. So BMB hates everyone. That explains why he did what he did to the Avengers... I think you guys are grasping at straws right now. I feel we should pull this coversation away from the Bendis/women issue, and focus back onto the origial topic of discussion. ~W~ Ok, back to Avengers 18. When in the beginning the YA are having that conversation with Jarvis, BMB got it wrong again, he wrote that a powerless Rick Jones stopped the Kree Skrull War. What about the Destiny Force? Didn´t exist either like Chaos Magic? ;D
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Post by von Bek on May 12, 2006 8:33:09 GMT -5
I feel this thread is so long because there is a lot of passion on the topic. We have some posters who are vehemently against Bendis' handling of the book, and some defenders of his work as well. Yes, and that´s what makes the conversation interesting. My biggest complaint is that of the 75+ "members" on these boards, we're only hearing from a handful on a regular basis. I'd like to see some of our casual readers get out of their passive mode and put some thought into these arguments. Who knows, maybe Marvel reads this stuff? Even if the Marvel editorial board doesn´t read it, I agree that it would be great if the other forum members would also start to post their opinions.
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Post by Shiryu on May 12, 2006 9:36:25 GMT -5
I noticed that too, out of 75+ members, only about 15/20 of us post regularly Hmm, I don't know if Bendis hates all women characters, the feeling I've had so far (but I'm quite a few issues behind you guys), is that he only hates (or, actually, dislikes) some characters, and Wanda is definitely one of them. Another one he difinely doesn't like is poor Carnage, dismissed in a couple of pages
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Post by Black Knight on May 12, 2006 15:50:44 GMT -5
I noticed that too, out of 75+ members, only about 15/20 of us post regularly Hmm, I don't know if Bendis hates all women characters, the feeling I've had so far (but I'm quite a few issues behind you guys), is that he only hates (or, actually, dislikes) some characters, and Wanda is definitely one of them. Another one he difinely doesn't like is poor Carnage, dismissed in a couple of pages Well supposedly he really liked Hawkeye and look what he did to him. Sometimes you have to wonder about Bendis, all the charater he claims he really likes, either get killed or their lives ruined. Makes you think.
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Post by imperiusrex on May 12, 2006 22:10:23 GMT -5
wow, this topic caught fire. it admittedly went off in another direction, but fire nonetheless. I've disliked Bendis' storytelling from the get-go. It's not bad writing, some of the plotting is interesting and the dialogue is often clever, but he does follow the Rube Goldberg approach that I dislike and it often leads to the most dire circumstance. For those who don't know Rube Goldberg, here's a mini synopsis: "He earned lasting fame for his "Rube Goldberg machines", exceedingly complex devices that perform simple tasks in a very indirect and convoluted way." I never feel like his stories grow out of anything organic. They always feel forced to get the result he wants. Disassembled and House of M are the epitome of Rube Goldbergian plotting to me. What does this have to do with NA 18, well only that the Collective seems to be the latest sort of indirect storyline that Bendis is doing. I'm sure something is going to come out of it, but for the life of me, I can't seem to even guess or care. The characters don't move this book which is the most important part of any comic to me. I doubt most readers of NA would care if the cast were a different set of top selling characters, because they're buying it for the feel of a Bendis book and a couple of top tier guys like Spidey and Wolverine whereas long term Avengers fans go nuts over every roster change with a fervor, "where's Hawkeye?" "Dr. Druid?? Why?" That's the sort of thing I'm used to. So it's going to take a while to change those attitudes among us long time fans. Heck they may never change, but in fairness, we were here first... ;D
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Post by dlw66 on May 12, 2006 22:17:21 GMT -5
I doubt most readers of NA would care if the cast were a different set of top selling characters, because they're buying it for the feel of a Bendis book and a couple of top tier guys like Spidey and Wolverine whereas long term Avengers fans go nuts over every roster change with a fervor, "where's Hawkeye?" "Dr. Druid?? Why?" That's the sort of thing I'm used to. So it's going to take a while to change those attitudes among us long time fans. Heck they may never change, but in fairness, we were here first... ;D GREAT analogy to a line-up change of the past!! I responded to the addition of Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Spider-Man, and Wolverine very much like I did when Dr. Druid was brought in! And speaking of Luke Cage and longtime fans -- my Luke Cage wears a yellow shirt and some big honking chain around his waist!!!!!
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Post by Shiryu on May 13, 2006 8:12:11 GMT -5
Well supposedly he really liked Hawkeye and look what he did to him. Sometimes you have to wonder about Bendis, all the charater he claims he really likes, either get killed or their lives ruined. Makes you think. Now I'm glad I don't know him personally, it could be dangerous ^^ Back to serious, I was thinking that Marvel may be missing a great opportunity. If so many new readers have joined the Avengers because of Spidey's and Wolvie's presence, Marvel should try to make the stories especially good, and the characters especially interesting, so that at least some of those new readers would start liking them and stay even after Spidey and Wolvie are gone. Pity this doesn't seem to be happening...
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Post by von Bek on May 13, 2006 12:01:39 GMT -5
I doubt most readers of NA would care if the cast were a different set of top selling characters, because they're buying it for the feel of a Bendis book and a couple of top tier guys like Spidey and Wolverine whereas long term Avengers fans go nuts over every roster change with a fervor, "where's Hawkeye?" "Dr. Druid?? Why?" That's the sort of thing I'm used to. So it's going to take a while to change those attitudes among us long time fans. Heck they may never change, but in fairness, we were here first... ;D GREAT analogy to a line-up change of the past!! I responded to the addition of Luke Cage, Spider-Woman, Spider-Man, and Wolverine very much like I did when Dr. Druid was brought in! And speaking of Luke Cage and longtime fans -- my Luke Cage wears a yellow shirt and some big honking chain around his waist!!!!! I agree that the analogy could be used in the case of Spiderwoman/Luke Cage (pet characters that the writer wants to bring to the spotlight and make important - like Dr. Druid) but I don´t think it can be used in the case of Wolverine and Spiderman. For long time fans the big guns have ever been Thor, IM and Cap. And dlw66, do your Luke Cage yell "Sweet Christmas" too?
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Post by thew40 on May 13, 2006 16:23:05 GMT -5
Let me ask this:
Let's say Marvel kept this current line-up for the next 2-3 years, but Bendis left after "New Avengers Disassembled." Who would you want to take his place?
Mark Waid and Kurt Busiek both have exclusives with DC at the moment, so you can't chose them.
I'd say either Peter David or David Hine. Peter David's work has only gotten better with the passage of time and he really knows how to get into a characters head. Plus, he's been around in the Marvel Universe for a good while. He could really add some spice to the inter-character relationships.
David Hine is second. He's done such a great job with "Son of M" and "X-Men: The 198." I'd love to see his take on this team, because you can tell he has a passion for character writing. Not to mention great cliffhangers, building of tension, pacing, etc.
Who would you pick?
Also (and unrelated): Does anyone know why my previous two posts didn't show up?
~W~
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Post by dlw66 on May 13, 2006 16:48:20 GMT -5
I would support any author/artist team that would do their own thing (because I think they should -- otherwise, why take the job?) in the context of that book's universe and history. Of course, the stories would have to be plausible and realistic. I don't feel the current team has any real chemistry between the characters, nor has any really been developed.
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Post by The Night Phantom on May 13, 2006 18:16:03 GMT -5
W, your choices of alternate writers are interesting. I have not read The 198, but I’ve been enjoying Hine’s Son of M (ooh, Avengers!). Son doesn’t give much indication as to whether Hine can capture that epic feel I associate with Avengers, but it has interesting, quirky choices that I appreciate. So, while I’m not confident about Hine as an Avengers writer, I’m certainly not ready to count him out either.
As for Peter David...he tends to insert more sarcasm than I typically want to see in Avengers. If he could rein that tendency in, I’m sure his characterizations would be spot-on, and his other strengths could contribute to a fascinating run.
Who else? Hm, I wonder what Steve Englehart would do with the current line-up. Maybe Dan Slott?
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Post by Shiryu on May 14, 2006 7:33:45 GMT -5
Hmm, Tom DeFalco or Roger Stern would be my first choices. Then possibly Dan Jurgens or Peter David.
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Post by imperiusrex on May 14, 2006 12:34:46 GMT -5
Joe Casey! The guy loves the Avengers and he knows them inside and out. Am I the only big EMH fan here?? Seriously, read some Joe Casey interviews; he knows Avengers like few others do and he loves the book. Loves it.
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Post by thew40 on May 14, 2006 15:47:23 GMT -5
Joe Casey! The guy loves the Avengers and he knows them inside and out. Am I the only big EMH fan here?? Seriously, read some Joe Casey interviews; he knows Avengers like few others do and he loves the book. Loves it. I would LOVE to see Casey on Avengers, but a more classic team (consisting of characters like Wasp, Pym, Vision, etc.) ~W~
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Post by dlw66 on May 14, 2006 17:20:30 GMT -5
I could go with Joe Casey. While I didn't care for some of the modern settings of EMH, and the art was OK (not great), the story was handled very well.
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Post by imperiusrex on May 14, 2006 22:10:02 GMT -5
I could go with Joe Casey. While I didn't care for some of the modern settings of EMH, and the art was OK (not great), the story was handled very well. I'll agree I didn't love the modern touches, but I think I recall Casey explaining that they were a necessary evil. And besides wait until EMH II where he's taking on Wasp, Vizh, YJ, Panther and Hawkeye, the more modern grouping should be an even better example of what he can do with the team...
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Post by dlw66 on May 15, 2006 7:39:28 GMT -5
Jim Krueger is doing a nice job over on DC's Justice maxi-series. He's handled the dialogue and pacing for DC's classic heroes and villains in a very believable way. Each issue (and I wish it was monthly -- 8 weeks is a long wait!!) moves well -- the reader actually gets action with the words! In terms of character development, he's dealing with 60 years of that in his rearview mirror. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel, and he (and Alex Ross) respect that.
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Post by von Bek on May 15, 2006 8:01:51 GMT -5
Joe Kelly could be interesting writing NA. Some of his JLElite members have similarities with NA members.
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Post by thew40 on May 15, 2006 8:22:18 GMT -5
Jim Krueger is doing a nice job over on DC's Justice maxi-series. He's handled the dialogue and pacing for DC's classic heroes and villains in a very believable way. Each issue (and I wish it was monthly -- 8 weeks is a long wait!!) moves well -- the reader actually gets action with the words! In terms of character development, he's dealing with 60 years of that in his rearview mirror. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel, and he (and Alex Ross) respect that. Jim Krueger also wrote the "Earth X" series (my favorite comic ever), which dealt massivly with Marvel history as a whole. He would be great on NA, though I think I'd rather see him on Fantastic Four or Defenders. ~W~
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Post by Black Knight on May 15, 2006 8:24:43 GMT -5
If you wanted to hold on to the current members I would go with JMS (who did an excellent job writing them in ASM) or Brubaker.
If you where going to let the writer bring in and get rid of any charaters he wanted, I would go with Joe Casey or Peter David.
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Post by von Bek on May 15, 2006 8:25:45 GMT -5
Jim Krueger is also good friends with Alex Ross, so we could have Ross doing the covers too!
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Post by von Bek on May 15, 2006 8:30:02 GMT -5
JMS is doing a good job in Fantastic Four too. I wouldn´t mind an Avengers book by him, with the current roster or a totally different one. I´m curious about what his take on Namor or Hank Pym could be like.
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Post by Shiryu on May 15, 2006 8:33:40 GMT -5
As long as it doesn't result in an homosexual Thor ^^ JMS hinted in that direction in one issue of ASM
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Post by von Bek on May 15, 2006 8:37:13 GMT -5
As long as it doesn't result in an homosexual Thor ^^ JMS hinted in that direction in one issue of ASM Please tell me you´re kidding. I was looking forward to Thor´s return...
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Post by Shiryu on May 15, 2006 8:51:44 GMT -5
It was very subtle. Spidey helps a tailor who often makes costumes for heroes / villains, and he mentions that Thor likes to read magazines on gardening and wedding dresses, so may be "his hammer is on the other side, if you know what I mean". The whole story was rather silly, and I hope the point is not retaken in the future.
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Post by dlw66 on May 15, 2006 9:11:59 GMT -5
I always considered Sif and Jane Foster to be, I don't know, satisifed women?
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Post by dlw66 on May 15, 2006 10:18:35 GMT -5
Jim Krueger also wrote the "Earth X" series (my favorite comic ever), ~W~ Too bad you weren't around for a first-time reading of The Dark Knight Returns or The Killing Joke...
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Post by Shiryu on May 16, 2006 8:10:56 GMT -5
The Killing Joke is by Moore, right ? I don't like him too much (way too pessimistic, especially in the Watchmen), but I must admit that story was great.
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