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Post by dlw66 on Apr 3, 2006 12:31:17 GMT -5
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 3, 2006 13:15:24 GMT -5
I read that, about half way through I was wondering if the guy was trying to brown nose his way into a job. Creating a team on the same level as the JLA, don't make me laugh..
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Post by imperiusrex on Apr 3, 2006 13:35:47 GMT -5
it's interesting that every few years there's some bloc of talent who come along reinvent the wheel and then their efforts are relegated to the junkheap after further examination. I'm not even calling Bendis bad, it's just that he and some others have brought a trend to comics (anybody remember the grim and gritty days when every character had a trenchcoat and dark past) of neorealism that I don't think will last. Hopefully the trend will reverse sooner rather than later, but Marvel is pulling out so many stops in terms of marketing that I fear as long as people keep buying event and stunt issues, this type of love in will continue...
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 3, 2006 15:24:39 GMT -5
When do you think that started? I recall the mid-80's with the big crossover events with Crisis and Secret Wars II. Was there a gimmick-type marketing campaign before that? I wouldn't consider annuals or giant-size issues in that vein; of course later we not only got crossovers, but foil-stamped covers, multiple covers, acetate lay-over covers, etc.
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Post by Avenger4Ever on Apr 3, 2006 16:33:57 GMT -5
I hate to burst the writer's bubble but, I seriously doubt the New Avengers will be looked upon as fondly as any of the previous Avengers stories. The current readers of the book are 20 - 40 something year olds, who already have had their first taste of the Avengers long before Bendis took over. It's a proven fact that comic books are gaining very little new readers and of those, precious few are impressionable young children. Videogames, Card games and Manga have their attention now. Most Avengers fans are still picking up NA but, very few are estatic about it. I think we all keep waiting for it to get better eventually. Unfortunately, it sells pretty well so i doubt if Marvel will change the formula anytime soon. I know when I hear "Avengers Assemble" it won't be conjuring up images of Bendis' Not Avengers. A4E
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 4, 2006 9:50:15 GMT -5
That's actually something I have been wondering about for a while: what's the average age of the comic book reader in the States ? (for NA in particular). If it's young people, then I guess they may truly enjoy Bendis run, especially not having 500 past issues to compare with, but older reader are not too happy with it I guess. And yet Marvel doesn't seem intentioned to change the writer of NA, which makes me think that sales are going well. Anyone knows something about this ?
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 4, 2006 10:45:16 GMT -5
Marvel always took pride in the fact that during the Silver Age they were marketing to college kids while DC was marketing more to the junior high/middle school crowd. It would only stand to reason that Marvel would keep doing that, but also understand that those "college kids" are now senior citizens! I could comprehend the books when I was a kid and appreciate them -- shoot, I always felt I did well in school because I read a lot and was exposed to some higher level vocabulary (THOOOM being higher-order than snikt! I guess...). So I guess I don't know what demographic is the market focus now?
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 4, 2006 12:00:10 GMT -5
Marvel always took pride in the fact that during the Silver Age they were marketing to college kids while DC was marketing more to the junior high/middle school crowd. It would only stand to reason that Marvel would keep doing that, but also understand that those "college kids" are now senior citizens! I could comprehend the books when I was a kid and appreciate them -- shoot, I always felt I did well in school because I read a lot and was exposed to some higher level vocabulary (THOOOM being higher-order than snikt! I guess...). So I guess I don't know what demographic is the market focus now? First sales for NA are around 120K. A really good number, remember those are sales to comic shops and such, not to the readers. Second, Joe Q has said many times that Marvel is aiming towards getting new readers, hence the lack of caring about continuum and the attempts to reset a lot of stuff. Person I feel that much of sales of this comic are based more on three things, hype, Wolverine and Spider man. Just my opinion.
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 4, 2006 12:21:52 GMT -5
I'd be curious to know what the actual sales to consumers are. These days for some books, 60-70K is doing quite well. I really can't believe that NA is almost double that! Beyond these boards, I would like to know what the appeal is... If you compare the past 18 months to just about anything in Vol. III, there truly is no comparison. We had some very good Busiek/Perez stories, a solid Kang story (one of the better ones overall) -- really a nice run until the silly She-Hulk stuff toward the end.
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Post by bobc on Apr 4, 2006 12:45:36 GMT -5
I'm with you, BK. Any book that has Wolverine and Spiderman in it, along with the Avengers name added to the bargain, is going to sell. Remember, the Avengers has always been in the comics top 10, usually in the top five. The book has name value regardless of who's in it.
I do videogames for a living so most of my friends are comic geeks or recovering comic geeks, and I am telling you every single one openly laughs at New Avengers. Nobody likes it. The kindest thing I ever heard was "it's okay." The Ultimates, on the other hand, gets a universal kick azz response.
Granted my friends aren't 13 YO boys who will buy anything with Wolverine in it, but still. I'm all for attracting new readers, but there's a line you cross when your book is all flash and no substance.
I, like most readers, have been underwhelmed by Wolverine's presence here. I think his membership could work if a writer did something interesting with him or set up some cool internel conflicts between him and say Captain America or Iron Man.
But...nothing...ever...happens...
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Post by Van Plexico on Apr 4, 2006 14:02:55 GMT -5
Wolverine's in it?? Seriously, has Logan done more than three things in all his time in the group, thus far? And I don't mean in other books, like AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. I mean in the pages of NEW AVENGERS. And, again, I'd love to see Sentry off the team with NEW AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED. I would laugh and laugh so hard at the thought that he'd been on most of the covers for about two years, and never done a single... darned... thing... as a member of the team. Not a single thing. Hahahaha In fact, here's a challenge: Name another Avenger who has appeared on more covers than Sentry and never actually gone on a mission with the team. I'm betting it won't even be close!
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 4, 2006 14:51:59 GMT -5
Wolverine's in it?? Seriously, has Logan done more than three things in all his time in the group, thus far? And I don't mean in other books, like AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. I mean in the pages of NEW AVENGERS. And, again, I'd love to see Sentry off the team with NEW AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED. I would laugh and laugh so hard at the thought that he'd been on most of the covers for about two years, and never done a single... darned... thing... as a member of the team. Not a single thing. Hahahaha In fact, here's a challenge: Name another Avenger who has appeared on more covers than Sentry and never actually gone on a mission with the team. I'm betting it won't even be close! Lets see, Wolvering has fought the mutates, and the wrecker and that is it in NA. Sentry has done nothing, Ronin fought some ninjas. The comic is slower then watching my grass grow. But some people love it, of course when you ask them why they never seem able to answer.
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Post by bobc on Apr 4, 2006 17:58:31 GMT -5
As per usual I agree with Black Knight. Slower than watching grass grow. I remember a time when the Avengers would have fought the mutates and the Wrecker in a single issue.
hey BK did Wolverine actually take anybody down, or was it just more of those endless splash pages?
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 5, 2006 7:48:15 GMT -5
As per usual I agree with Black Knight. Slower than watching grass grow. I remember a time when the Avengers would have fought the mutates and the Wrecker in a single issue. hey BK did Wolverine actually take anybody down, or was it just more of those endless splash pages? Let me think, he didn't take anyone down in "The Raft", he didn't take down the wrecker, he was background in the "Sentry" arc, so no he has done nothing but sit around.
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 5, 2006 9:01:00 GMT -5
Completely agree on the "slow" thing, which also makes me consider that nowadays some story arcs are too long, and have too little happening. They just seem to bring to another story arc. Back in the 60s - 80s, most stories would not be more than 2 or 3 issues long, when they were longer you could be sure it would have been a masterpiece, and there were often one or two single issues to catch your breath. Now everything seems to be done to go on paperbacks and the action suffers a lot, with a few things happening only towards the end (sometimes). BTW, for the ones ignoring american jergon (IE: me ) what does K stand for ? thousand ?
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Post by von Bek on Apr 5, 2006 9:20:57 GMT -5
Sentry did nothing?! Are you guys kidding?! He was the excuse for Emma Frost to appear in the book and save the day, in a way that was not even clear how she did it...
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 5, 2006 9:23:44 GMT -5
Sentry did nothing?! Are you guys kidding?! He was the excuse for Emma Frost to appear in the book and save the day, in a way that was not even clear how she did it... Your right, my bad, he did do that.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 5, 2006 9:36:24 GMT -5
Actually I was being sarcastic, but anyway I hear on other board that in issue 17 Sentry does say a couple of words or something. But his own mini is not bad (no sarcasm here).
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 5, 2006 9:53:08 GMT -5
Actually I was being sarcastic, but anyway I hear on other board that in issue 17 Sentry does say a couple of words or something. But his own mini is not bad (no sarcasm here). I know, I was playing along, my apologizes for the misunderstanding. His mini actually is not bad, the problem with the Sentry is that his only weakness is being crazy. If you cure him, he becomes this all powerful cardboard superhero.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 5, 2006 10:07:21 GMT -5
Actually I was being sarcastic, but anyway I hear on other board that in issue 17 Sentry does say a couple of words or something. But his own mini is not bad (no sarcasm here). I know, I was playing along, my apologizes for the misunderstanding. His mini actually is not bad, the problem with the Sentry is that his only weakness is being crazy. If you cure him, he becomes this all powerful cardboard superhero. No prob, I was just a little bit confused by the smilie. And good point about the Sentry, but let´s see what Jenkins got planned for him at the end of the series. Are you the same BK from CBR and AvengersForever?
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 5, 2006 10:10:59 GMT -5
I know, I was playing along, my apologizes for the misunderstanding. His mini actually is not bad, the problem with the Sentry is that his only weakness is being crazy. If you cure him, he becomes this all powerful cardboard superhero. No prob, I was just a little bit confused by the smilie. And good point about the Sentry, but let´s see what Jenkins got planned for him at the end of the series. Are you the same BK from CBR and AvengersForever? Yep, I am. Although the people on this site, seem to be vastly more pleasent. ;D
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Post by bobc on Apr 5, 2006 19:14:29 GMT -5
I'm extremely pleasant.
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Post by Avenger4Ever on Apr 7, 2006 19:54:33 GMT -5
The way that both companies put such an emphasis on Trade Paperbacks one has to wonder if all writers are mandated to write drawn out storylines. Both companies have complained about lack of monthly sales but, when you can pick up a year's worth of storylines in 1 or 2 trades at a reduced cost over buying the originals, then they only have themselves to blame. Many times the only way a story is enjoyable is to read it in a collected edition. I really miss the 1 or 2 issues storylines.
A4E
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 10, 2006 8:47:39 GMT -5
That's true as well, I would probably do that too, if not for having to wait months before the PB comes out (or doesn't come at all, as in Italy). It's a fragile balance there between focusing on the monthly titles and ignore and PB or focusing on the PBs and "sacrificing" the normal issues. May be they should increase the time that goes between the last issue and the PB (I don't think anyone would wait a couple of years to read his fav book), or they should not reprint normal storylines, but only the most important ones.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 10, 2006 9:07:59 GMT -5
The way that both companies put such an emphasis on Trade Paperbacks one has to wonder if all writers are mandated to write drawn out storylines. Both companies have complained about lack of monthly sales but, when you can pick up a year's worth of storylines in 1 or 2 trades at a reduced cost over buying the originals, then they only have themselves to blame. Many times the only way a story is enjoyable is to read it in a collected edition. I really miss the 1 or 2 issues storylines. A4E That was one of Geoff Johns major complains while working for Marvel, he would be told by the editors to 'strech' storylines to fit the TPB format ('Search for She Hulk' was an example, according to Johns).
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Post by Black Knight on Apr 10, 2006 13:48:02 GMT -5
The way that both companies put such an emphasis on Trade Paperbacks one has to wonder if all writers are mandated to write drawn out storylines. Both companies have complained about lack of monthly sales but, when you can pick up a year's worth of storylines in 1 or 2 trades at a reduced cost over buying the originals, then they only have themselves to blame. Many times the only way a story is enjoyable is to read it in a collected edition. I really miss the 1 or 2 issues storylines. A4E That was one of Geoff Johns major complains while working for Marvel, he would be told by the editors to 'strech' storylines to fit the TPB format ('Search for She Hulk' was an example, according to Johns). I heard that, Johns had planned on making his first arc shorter, but they wanted him to strech it out, and it caused some serious lack of action and forward plot movement, very similar to how Bendis's plots move, yet people love the slow, lack of action stuff from Bendis but hated it from Johns. Interesting...
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Post by dlw66 on Apr 10, 2006 16:55:05 GMT -5
My major recollection of Geoff Johns (and I don't know the man -- as I've said elsewhere on these boards, I'm very good friends with DC artist Don Kramer who has collaborated for years with Geoff on various projects) on Avengers was the rather gratuitous love scene between Hank and Jan in an issue of Avengers shortly before the 6-part stories started towards the end of Vol. 3. Let me just say, had I picked that book up back in the 70's as an impressionable youngster, I'd have felt like I'd just picked up a Playboy!! Whoo! -- too hot for my Avengers tastes...
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Post by Yellowjacket on Apr 11, 2006 3:58:59 GMT -5
Yeah, that scene is quite bold for that kind of comic. ;D
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Post by Shiryu on Apr 11, 2006 8:52:15 GMT -5
Eh eh, it was kinda hot. I guess Marvel can play a bit more outside the Comic Code, even though I agree it was rather meaningless for the story. My fav story with Johns was his first one, with Caos, Order, the Inbetweener and the Zodiac. I think it's a pity they didn't show the full attack of the new Zodiac, it looked dangerous.
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Post by von Bek on Apr 11, 2006 9:46:47 GMT -5
Without a sequel, Johns´ first arc will remain incomplete, making no sense. And the hot Hank/Jan scene was kinda silly, but let´s be honest, I think every reader wonder sometimes if superheroes don´t use their powers for... well... more pleasent things than fighting bad guys.
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