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Post by Van Plexico on Mar 24, 2006 15:02:42 GMT -5
I actually liked this issue a good bit more than the previous one-- though I scarcely could have liked it less.
The opening bit, where Cage has them sort of showing the flag in inner cities: I liked it. Intriguing. But-- it begs the question, if they can do this, why can't they intervene in other "real life" problems that super heroes have never gotten involved in? Pushes that invisible boundary between the real world and comics world. Maybe good, maybe bad. Hmm.
And then the unintentionally hilarious moment (to me, anyway) when Cage is waxing all philosophical and socio-economical about how the Avengers are going to places like this and just stand around all day, making a big difference in people's lives and communities, and then-- in the very next panel!-- they take off. I know they had an emergency call, but still, the timing there-- hilarious.
The rest of the issue was okay. Actual Avengers doing actual Avengering. So atypical for this book. A Korvac reference (though the guy doesn't look that much like him.) Iron Man stepping up and being diplomatic. Carol getting involved (whoops!). And then that last page, where she looks like she's getting turned back into Binary (aieeeee!!!). So I'm wondering there how this will be portrayed in her own series, and why they didn't do this *first*, before starting her series. Wait and see, yes.
And I really liked Deodato's art. Didn't care for his work much in the past, but, for the most part, I thought this was very good. Much more to my taste than some of the previous stuff.
And we still haven't actually had Sentry *do anything* as an Avenger-- though they finally *asked him to!* If Bendis is telling the truth, and the whole series is about to be shaken up again (Disassembled), how funny would it be if Sentry ends up being on the covers and on the roster for this entire run, and NEVER DOES A SINGLE DAMNED THING AS AN AVENGER? Well, sort of funny, and sort of not, if you know what I mean.
So, all things considered, a decent issue-- considering how low the bar has been lowered, of course.
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Post by bobc on Mar 27, 2006 12:35:32 GMT -5
I was personally looking for something somewhat above "decent." I made the mistake of buying and reading The Essential Avengers volumes 4 and 5 this weekend--and it was depressing as hell to see how far this title has fallen. The storylines from the late 60's through the 70's were so amazingly complex and good, and there was a battle every single issue. The interaction between the characters, particularly Wanda, the Vision, Pietro and Hawkeye, was really interesting.
After re-reading this stuff, I will never buy anything by Benids again. I get so tired of hearing this lie that you can't have characterization and action at the same time. Back in the day, every single issue had both.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 27, 2006 13:14:29 GMT -5
Amen, brother. And it doesn't matter what title you are talking about. And, I'll even go so far as to say the DC's of those days paled in comparison to the Marvels, but like Marvel you still knew the characters, their strengths and weaknesses, their relationships, etc.
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Post by Re on Mar 27, 2006 13:39:53 GMT -5
I really liked this issue! It was cool to see the Avengers in other cities (Cleveland and Detroit, respectively). I can't help but think that the Avengers up and leaving Detroit is going to bite them in the ass. Last issue was just set-up. This one was pay-off. I'm betting that as one arc, it'll all be better.
As for you naysayers, you never know, five years down the line, you'll decide to re-read this and may actually enjoy it.
~W~
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 27, 2006 13:58:04 GMT -5
I highly doubt that in five years, this will be considered a good era for the Avengers.
Issues 17 feels like an extension of the set up from issue 16, maybe if you combine both issues and then cut out the pointless splash pages, you would have one decent comic.
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Post by Re on Mar 27, 2006 18:36:57 GMT -5
What's wrong with splash pages?
You guys need to lighten up a little bit, I think.
It's better than having characters talk to themselves, explain what they're doing while they're doing it, and be super-bogged down by continunity. Can't anyone here just sit back and TRY and enjoy the story?
The era of constant thought balloons and over-used captions is over.
~W~
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Post by Yellowjacket on Mar 28, 2006 7:53:36 GMT -5
Again I agree, the Bendis NA stuff really isn´t that bad, I liked the issue as most of them before.
Bendis´ characterisationes are fine for me, if only he would drop SM + Wolverine from the team and replace them with some classic Avengers, it would even be better. Regarding the Sentry I still hope we see more of him soon, it could result in some interesting stories. That, if Bendis knows how to present such an omni-potent character.
Deodato´s art was in fact some surprise, hadn´t thought he could be that good. My only complain with #17 is the appearance of Ms. Marvel, wasn´t necessary, but then, if it helps selling her own mag, it´s allright for me.
And as far as the classic stories from 60s/70s: no, Bendis isn´t that good, but I think nobody today is that good. They are in a league of their own, that was simply an incredible awesome 20 years run.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 28, 2006 9:29:06 GMT -5
Nothing is wrong with splash pages, when used in moderation. However 7 pages of spalsh and then you never see the avengers team in the issue makes the issues pointless in my opinion. Issue 17 is just a continuation of the setup from issue 16, the two could easly have been combined and made a good comic book instead of the typical decompressed stuff we see in NA.
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Post by thew40 on Mar 28, 2006 20:43:58 GMT -5
And as far as the classic stories from 60s/70s: no, Bendis isn´t that good, but I think nobody today is that good. They are in a league of their own, that was simply an incredible awesome 20 years run. I honestly don't think it's about "good" or "bad." Comics told in the style they were told in back then would not sell as well. Does that mean they were bad? Of course not. I'm reading through "Essential Avengers" Volume 3 right now and loving it. With Bendis, decompression is what he does. It's as much his style as it was Roy Thomas' to write the way he used to. You just gotta realize it, sit back, and be patient. The story will unfold. Last issue was set-up and while he took a risk at not even having the Avengers showing up, it was a bit of a misfire. I'll give him that it was interesting to see a major threat flare up all from the POV of SHIELD as opposed to the Avengers, though. It also added some realism to the event. Personally, I'm hoping Marvel does add a "West Coast"-type team, consisting of old Avengers (and written by Joe Casey - that would be awesome), so that everyone could be happy, Bendis fans and Benids haters. ~W~
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Post by Yellowjacket on Mar 29, 2006 7:18:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I would be fine with a second (classic) team as long as JRJR isn´t drawing.
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 29, 2006 8:38:50 GMT -5
Honestly I am surprised that marvel has not introduced a second team of Avengers, I mean for them it would be like having your cake and eating it to.
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Post by thew40 on Mar 29, 2006 10:21:37 GMT -5
Honestly I am surprised that marvel has not introduced a second team of Avengers, I mean for them it would be like having your cake and eating it to. From what I understand, it's in the works. "Civil War" is supposedly going to create a second team. I would be happy with that - one team with the NA line-up, another with a more classic Avengers line-up. ~W~
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 29, 2006 11:20:52 GMT -5
From what I understand, it's in the works. "Civil War" is supposedly going to create a second team.
I would be happy with that - one team with the NA line-up, another with a more classic Avengers line-up.
~W~
I have heard rumour regarding what you are talking about. From what I have heard about Civil War, either Iron Man or Cap are going to leave and form the second team, personally I am hoping for cap, cause then I will drop NA.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 30, 2006 8:41:22 GMT -5
I finally got around to reading New Avengers 15-17 last night. As you can tell, I'd been dragging my feet a little bit. Overall, in regard to 16 and 17 (to be honest, I've already forgotten what #15 was about, but I think the cover had Spider-Woman's boobs on it...), I thought it was kind of a throwback to, as said above, a real Avengers story! Yes, it could have been placed in one issue, but for once I thought the endless word balloons actually accurately portrayed the disorganization and fear that would take place if something that fast and that catastrophic actually took place. I didn't mind the Avengers not being in the issue -- it was nice to see Alpha Flight, although I've never been a fan.
As for 17, it was really pretty good, certainly the best of the new run (and again, that wouldn't take much). As Van stated, the Korvac reference was cool, particularly in light of how well that arc is spoken of elsewhere on these boards. Deodato's art was good, a nice change from Cho's somewhat cartoony-looking stuff. I didn't notice the huge breasts nearly so much... The last page was good -- actually a cliff-hanger that leaves me looking forward to next month. As for the first half of the book, it was fine, new twist on an old theme. Somewhat reminded me, though, of the public service comics Marvel used to put out in the 80's -- against smoking, etc.
And to show you how few Marvels I buy anymore, I completely forgot about Spidey's change in costume (no idea what has been going on over there) and until he actually spoke, I thought it was that new ninja character!!
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Post by Yellowjacket on Mar 31, 2006 3:47:14 GMT -5
What are the responses about Spideys new costume so far. Does anybody know here? I would say, it stinks...
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 31, 2006 8:58:01 GMT -5
I would have to agree with you, it would be a lot better if the gold was silver and it didn't have the spats though.
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Post by imperiusrex on Mar 31, 2006 12:38:33 GMT -5
In regards to issue 17, I have never seen the point of involving superheroes in the mundane aspects of everyday life. Once you have Cage declaring their intent to stand around in drug neighborhoods (something we'll likely never see again as it's as exciting as watching paint dry), why not have them do something more important? Let's face it, people spending money on crack are better off than people in the Sudan who don't have drinking water. Isn't Iron man's time better spent helping people who are impoverished due to no fault of their own? And of course, you can't stop there; what about the genocidal regimes all over the world. Innocent people are being killed every day for just being a certain color and they don't have the benefit of cellphones and an active police force and superheroes. if you really want to help the world, standing on a street corner and beating your chest is probably the absolutely least effective thing I can think of, but gosh, it gives Bendis a chance to trot out his tough guy Cage dialogue so I guess it's good for something. I thought and it seemed this way for fifty years or so, that superheroes understood they can't usurp humanity's basic need to control their everyday life. If people in your neighborhood are doing drugs, Luke Cage can't stop them, a concerted effort by people who want to have a clean neighborhood for their children will (and this sort of thing happens in the real world all the time). Much better idea, how about Tony Stark, a recovering addict writes some really big checks and gets some counselors and treatment centers in these neighborhoods? Won't give Bendis a chance to trot out the trite dialogue, but it'll make infinitely more sense...
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Post by Black Knight on Mar 31, 2006 14:00:52 GMT -5
In regards to issue 17, I have never seen the point of involving superheroes in the mundane aspects of everyday life. Once you have Cage declaring their intent to stand around in drug neighborhoods (something we'll likely never see again as it's as exciting as watching paint dry), why not have them do something more important? Let's face it, people spending money on crack are better off than people in the Sudan who don't have drinking water. Isn't Iron man's time better spent helping people who are impoverished due to no fault of their own? And of course, you can't stop there; what about the genocidal regimes all over the world. Innocent people are being killed every day for just being a certain color and they don't have the benefit of cellphones and an active police force and superheroes. if you really want to help the world, standing on a street corner and beating your chest is probably the absolutely least effective thing I can think of, but gosh, it gives Bendis a chance to trot out his tough guy Cage dialogue so I guess it's good for something. I thought and it seemed this way for fifty years or so, that superheroes understood they can't usurp humanity's basic need to control their everyday life. If people in your neighborhood are doing drugs, Luke Cage can't stop them, a concerted effort by people who want to have a clean neighborhood for their children will (and this sort of thing happens in the real world all the time). Much better idea, how about Tony Stark, a recovering addict writes some really big checks and gets some counselors and treatment centers in these neighborhoods? Won't give Bendis a chance to trot out the trite dialogue, but it'll make infinitely more sense... You really need to stop making so much sense.
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Post by Robocop on Apr 11, 2006 16:48:55 GMT -5
Me too. i couldn't care less for it. Marvel used to lead the way, now they're just influenced by their movies and bad action figures! They should take some lessons from DC (it used to be the other way around once..) and drop the look after a few issues but no doubt they'll milk ir for years to come.
I'm a Marvel fan and have been for years and it pains me to see these characters slowly slide into the mud. They don't need gimmicks just GOOD WRITING!!! I agree Spidey and wolverine should be taken out of the Avengers and this whole thing should start to wind down and bring us back to the Avengers we know. Kurt Busiek was a blessing but his work has been un-done now...
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Post by Yellowjacket on Apr 12, 2006 1:29:54 GMT -5
Maybe Civil War gives you guys, what you´re demanding for. ;D At least, if the rumors are true, you will have the opportunity reading an Non-Bendis Avengers team.
I myself am eagerly looking forward CW, Millar mentioned CW #2 will be a real clacker, let´s wait, read and see...
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Post by bobc on Apr 12, 2006 12:44:27 GMT -5
I want more splash pages--and less happening!!!!!
just kidding
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Post by Yellowjacket on Apr 13, 2006 1:29:33 GMT -5
Hmm, myself I really do like reading huge amounts of words. Again and again I´m fascinated by the powerfully eloquent (in German "wortgewaltig") amounts of words the old guys, Lee, Thomas, Englehart and Shooter (to name but a few) used, their words illustrated the art in such an accompanying way that story/art were lift to an even superior level. Today, that still is simply great stuff and it is such a pity, what some (not all of them) German translators make of it: dry, clinical translations missing the probably most important point: emotionality. And back to Bendis: yes, I`m aware of the fact that Bendis isn´t on par with these guys. But nevertheless I like reading huge amounts of words, even Bendis´. Of course, some (more) action won´t hurt either... ;D
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Post by Spiderwasp on Apr 19, 2006 14:05:40 GMT -5
I certainly hope you all are right about a second team of more classic Avengers. I had huge reservations about the "New Avengers" from the beginning but decided to be optimistic and hope that they had done all of the disassembled stuff for a good reason. I think by now, I've given them a fair chance but the optimism has faded. All I've seen are a bunch of fair stories that could have just as easily have taken place with any team of Avengers. Character development has been minimal and we had to go through months of buildup concerning Sentry so that he could finally wow us by... showing up. All in all, I really miss the Avengers.
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Post by Yellowjacket on Apr 20, 2006 3:33:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I see your point. Nevertheless I like NA so far. If it´s not only a big hype, then in Civil War we should see some character development.
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