|
Post by fourcolorfigs on Dec 3, 2014 8:11:57 GMT -5
In an effort to generate some more traffic on this, one of my fav online spots to visit and lurk, I am going to get more active! I intend to post at least 1 action page, panel, or scene per week drawn from classic avengers tales. I'll try to cite accurate issue, story, and creative credits where I can. I might talk a bit about it too. The first installment for this thread comes from Avengers 106 (1972), and features a story written by Steve Englehart. The art is a surprisingly cool mix of Rich Buckler and George Tuska on pencils, and Dave Cockrum on inks! Check it out! One of the threads in this story has Cap and Rick Jones (as Bucky) taking on the Hordes of Hydra! Later on page 10, Cap and "Bucky" nearly get blown up! Great stuff from a very underrated issue featuring an art team that one might never expect to produce such amazing work! Thanks for reading! -- Scott scott-pyle.tumblr.com/
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on Dec 4, 2014 16:55:31 GMT -5
Nice. It reminds me a bit of Kirby.
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Dec 4, 2014 18:51:02 GMT -5
I LOVED that issue. It is one of the first Avengers comics I ever bought. The art is fantastic! Isn't this the issue that starts with the Vision sitting in a chair? He never looked cooler to me. Also--the artists made the black Panther look very catlike and powerful. This may have been the issue that sparked a lifelong love of this book.
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 12, 2014 12:04:46 GMT -5
Nice. It reminds me a bit of Kirby. Avengers #106 Captain America #105 (1968) Kirby
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Dec 14, 2014 14:35:33 GMT -5
Oh...my...GOD.
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Dec 14, 2014 22:13:57 GMT -5
Ohhhhhh that nutty Rich Buckler. Never saw an artist whose work he couldn't happily swipe! Boy, and doesn't rumor have it that he totally BRISTLES at the suggestion of any artistic improprieties whatsoever?
He's almost like the truly brilliant art forgers from the last century who could copy masterpieces down to the brushstrokes. . . but didn't quite have whatever initial spark of creative inspiration that's required to elevate them to the level of a Master in their own right. Not only could Buckler copy Kirby's style, he could copy it from different Kirby eras, even. And I can't think of how many times I thought I was looking at a John Buscema image only to discover that it was Buckler after all.
And daggone it, he's such a good artist on his own-! Deathlok is one of my favorite under-the-radar runs. And his work on FF (esp. w/ Joe Sinnott inks) had a great, hearty "Marvel" feel to it-- the group looked great in his hands.
HB
|
|
|
Post by ultron69 on Dec 15, 2014 16:35:48 GMT -5
Nice. It reminds me a bit of Kirby. Avengers #106 Captain America #105 (1968) Kirby Hey, it wasn't just my imagination! Nice find, by the way!
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Dec 17, 2014 8:57:04 GMT -5
Well isn't this embarrassing. This whole time (decades) I thought Rich Buckler was an underrated artist. This is just shameless! Why would you copy another artist's work? What's the point? Why not copy real human forms?
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 17, 2014 17:05:00 GMT -5
Wow, great to see some familiar "faces" here--Shiryu, Ultron69, Bobc, HB! Well isn't this embarrassing. This whole time (decades) I thought Rich Buckler was an underrated artist. This is just shameless! Why would you copy another artist's work? What's the point? Why not copy real human forms? Hi Bob, for that generation of fans-turned pros--Buckler and others such as Keith Pollard, Ron Wilson, etc.--I gather that superhero comics were their training ground. As kids/adolescents these artists passionately loved comics, were very active in fandom, produced fanzines that they illustrated with their favorite characters and favorite scenes from comics. The act of "recreating" classic scenes/poses continued when they became pros. Fantastic Four 327 (1989) K. Pollard Fantastic Four 41 (1965) Kirby But it wasn't just the younger artists. While it's nice to think that mainstream comic book artists concocted scenes from scratch 100% of the time, the fact is many of them used reference at times, usually (in Marvel's case) Kirby but I've also seen magazine ads used (Neal Adams, I'm looking at you ). It was an accepted technique and necessary. Why? Deadline pressure, character consistency and continuity, the importance of maintaining a brand/house style, learning on the job--there are many reasons why the artists (and writers) looked to the older work for guidance/inspiration. From what I have seen, Romita Sr., Sal, George Tuska, and yes even the great John Buscema did it. And Bob, judging from your earlier post about Buckler's work, and from the letter columns back when he was the regular Fantastic Four penciler, it seems to me that you and many,many other readers who started reading Marvel during that early 1970s-timeframe--and who probably weren't all that familiar with Kirby's Silver Age stuff--responded very positively to the sheer energy and exuberance of Buckler's work. I really hope that any knowledge acquired as an adult of the behind-the-scenes workings--whether it's becoming aware of an artist's sources or reading books like Sean Howe's that chronicle the business side of Marvel--doesn't take that enjoyment away from you.
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 17, 2014 17:16:07 GMT -5
... And I can't think of how many times I thought I was looking at a John Buscema image only to discover that it was Buckler after all. LOL, I always wanted to caption this as "Which twin has the Toni?" but that's a reference from even before my time --so I'll just say, which Witch is which?
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Dec 19, 2014 15:08:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, Sharky. Back in the 80's when I was going to work for Marvel as an artist, I distinctly remember the art director (can't recall who he was) saying that people like me should not learn to draw anatomy from looking at comics. He said I should use real people as subjects. I never forgot that because frankly I had learned to draw mainly from looking at the work of artists like John Buscema (anybody recall John's book "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way?"
Anyhow--I am reading "The History of Marvel Comics" right now and the author said that in the mid to late 60's, Stan Lee would insist that new artists learn how to draw comics by mimicking Jack Kirby. Apparently Don Heck didn't feel his art was up to Kirby's standards, so he often went to Kirby for tips on drawing. When Kirby left in 1970, John B thought Marvel would collapse without him.
Sharky--I can't tell you how shocked I am at the blatant copying! I had no idea! That being said, if you're gonna copy somebody, I'd pick Big John!
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 23, 2014 11:42:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the info, Sharky. Back in the 80's when I was going to work for Marvel as an artist, I distinctly remember the art director (can't recall who he was) saying that people like me should not learn to draw anatomy from looking at comics. He said I should use real people as subjects. Yeah, that's the proper, preferred way of learning to draw really well. And I'm sure Buckler and most of the other young artists of his generation I mentioned had some formal training too, but once they became comics pros they "learned on the job" and aped the older Silver Age style. Just curious, Bob, where did you meet the art director--did you come to Marvel in NYC, or ws it at a local Comic Con? I never forgot that because frankly I had learned to draw mainly from looking at the work of artists like John Buscema (anybody recall John's book "How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way?" I still have my copy! Bought it about 8-9 years ago, when I got back into comics. A classic. Anyhow--I am reading "The History of Marvel Comics" right now and the author said that in the mid to late 60's, Stan Lee would insist that new artists learn how to draw comics by mimicking Jack Kirby. Apparently Don Heck didn't feel his art was up to Kirby's standards, so he often went to Kirby for tips on drawing. Right--as has often been recounted, Stan wanted the other Marvel artists to mimic Kirby's dynamism and storytelling--his panel-to-panel sequencing, how to plot a story without benefit of a full script. So to acclimate artists to the 1960s Marvel style, Stan often had Kirby do the layouts for both for industry veterans like Heck, Alex Toth, Dick Ayers, George Tuska, Romita Sr., Werner Roth, John Buscema, Gil Kane, et al., and of course for newcomers like Steranko...at least until such time as these artists became more comfortable with what Stan wanted. An exception was Gene Colan (aka Adam Austin back then), as Stan felt that Colan's very unusual style wouldn't mesh well and might even be constricted by working over Kirby layouts. Anyway, as we know as the decade progressed Kirby became increasingly disenchanted with Marvel so by the late 1960s, he stopped doing layouts. For one thing, he got paid less for layout worrk than he did for full pencils and he felt that it should pay more, since basically the layout artist was the one plotting and pacing the story. Sharky--I can't tell you how shocked I am at the blatant copying! I had no idea! That being said, if you're gonna copy somebody, I'd pick Big John! Oh, Buckler "adapted" plenty of panels from John B. too--that's why I posted the two Wanda panels earlier, one is by Buscema and one is by Buckler--pretty identical, wouldn't you say? Basically from what I have seen, on his mid-1970s Fantastic Four run Buckler used mostly the old Lee-Kirby FF issues, plus some Kirby Captain America and occasionally some Kirby Thor... but there's also some adaptations of Buscema's FF here and there too. I have not read most of Buckler's mid-1970s Thor work but the few panels I have seen are also from Kirby Thor and /or Kirby FF. For his 1972 Avengers issues, it looks to me that Buckler adapted mostly Buscema's work and also Neal Adams's X-Men & Avengers work, along with some Kirby (as we saw with the Avengers #106/Kirby Captain America #105 panels above).
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Dec 23, 2014 15:18:36 GMT -5
Hi Sharky No wonder I liked Buckler's work--not all of it, I found him to be very up and down over the years. I think I liked him best when he was copying Big John! How did I meet the Art Director? I had a friend in college named Tom who was from NYC (I was from a small farm town in Upstate NY)and he had a female friend whose boyfriend worked for Marvel. Tom thought I was really good at drawing so he arranged a meeting, through his friend, with the art director whose name escapes me. I stayed with Tom for two weeks and went to the Marvel Offices in Manhattan a couple of times. What I recall most was Jim Shooter because he was really, really huge and seemed kind of nasty. The tension in that office was palpable. Everyone looked angry and the office seemed to be in chaos.I was led to believe I'd probably get to drawn Captain America, but when I went in to learn more it was like they didn't even remember I'd been there a few days prior. This was maybe 1987 or possibly '86. Anyhow, I was very young and naive and thought Marvel would be my dream job but the reality was a whole other story! Some guy just walked up to me and shoved a bunch of Fantastic Four pages that had been penciled by John Buscema (I'm wanting to say the She Hulk and Spiderman were in these pages)and informed me I'd be inking those if I wanted to, and didn't seem to know I was told I'd do Captain America. The whole thing was a mess and I hated NYC anyway--so I moved to Austin and worked for printers and ad firms before getting into video games and 3D in 1996. I still have those John B pages somewhere--they were photo copies. I had a similar experience with Electronic Arts in California.EA flew me out to San Mateo, CA to interview for the Lead Texture Artist on a James Bond game. The way it works at EA is that you interview all day long, with like 500 people all asking you the same dumb questions. By the end of the day I was practically a zombie from answering the same questions over and over and over. But here's the weird part--from the moment I got there, everybody was talking about Lord of the Rings Return of the King, NOT James Bond, and after about two hours I finally said to one of my interviewers that I thought there had been a mistake--that I was there to talk about working on James Bond. "No no no" the guy said, like I was crazy,and assured me I'd been contacted about working on ROTK. I explained that that wasn't possible, seeing that I didn't even know they were making a ROTK game. Then I caught myself and said to myself--you idiot, you're getting offered a job on a career making game and there I was arguing to be on James Bond. After that epiphany I was very docile and just went with the flow. I got the job, by the way. Hey did I ever post a link to some of the Marvel drawings I put on my website. I don't recall. If anyone cares, go here: www.bobcooksey.net/comicillustrationIndex.htm
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 24, 2014 10:58:15 GMT -5
How did I meet the Art Director? I had a friend in college named Tom who was from NYC (I was from a small farm town in Upstate NY)and he had a female friend whose boyfriend worked for Marvel. Tom thought I was really good at drawing so he arranged a meeting, through his friend, with the art director whose name escapes me. I stayed with Tom for two weeks and went to the Marvel Offices in Manhattan a couple of times. What I recall most was Jim Shooter because he was really, really huge and seemed kind of nasty. The tension in that office was palpable. Everyone looked angry and the office seemed to be in chaos.I was led to believe I'd probably get to drawn Captain America, but when I went in to learn more it was like they didn't even remember I'd been there a few days prior. This was maybe 1987 or possibly '86. Anyhow, I was very young and naive and thought Marvel would be my dream job but the reality was a whole other story! Some guy just walked up to me and shoved a bunch of Fantastic Four pages that had been penciled by John Buscema (I'm wanting to say the She Hulk and Spiderman were in these pages)and informed me I'd be inking those if I wanted to, and didn't seem to know I was told I'd do Captain America. The whole thing was a mess and I hated NYC anyway--so I moved to Austin and worked for printers and ad firms before getting into video games and 3D in 1996. I still have those John B pages somewhere--they were photo copies. Ugh, Marvel in the 80s sounds very mixed-up! Wonder if the guy you met with was Don Perlin, who's written that "... Jim Shooter asked me to come up there and work as an art director. The senior art director at the time was John Romita, the executive art director. I was what you’d call the managing art director...They’d take three budding young cartoonists, who were a smidgen away from being professionals, pay them minimum wage, no benefits whatsoever, no sick leave or holidays. When you worked, you got paid. They stayed for a year to do the changes and corrections in the artwork. The editors would bring the pages and things that they wanted changed, corrected or fixed or whatever, and it was up to me to see that was done. I was training these young guys and after about a year they were ready to go out and get work. That was the primary purpose of that job. I was a teacher more or less..." www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/perlin.htmlNice that you still have the JB page copies, though. I had a similar experience with Electronic Arts in California.EA flew me out to San Mateo, CA to interview for the Lead Texture Artist on a James Bond game. The way it works at EA is that you interview all day long, with like 500 people all asking you the same dumb questions. By the end of the day I was practically a zombie from answering the same questions over and over and over. But here's the weird part--from the moment I got there, everybody was talking about Lord of the Rings Return of the King, NOT James Bond, and after about two hours I finally said to one of my interviewers that I thought there had been a mistake--that I was there to talk about working on James Bond. "No no no" the guy said, like I was crazy,and assured me I'd been contacted about working on ROTK. I explained that that wasn't possible, seeing that I didn't even know they were making a ROTK game. Then I caught myself and said to myself--you idiot, you're getting offered a job on a career making game and there I was arguing to be on James Bond. After that epiphany I was very docile and just went with the flow. I got the job, by the way.Ah, excellent! Thanks for the link, Bob (IIRC you provdied it some years ago on AA but good to have it handy again right here). So yes, I've seen your fantastic work before on your site, but for some reason I don't recall seeing these Marvel characters before. Now that I have, I have one question for you: Why the heck aren't you working for Marvel or DC or another comic book company? ?? Your work would fit right in with today's comics and looks better than most of the stuff that makes it into today's Marvel/DC.
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Dec 25, 2014 0:26:30 GMT -5
How did I meet the Art Director? I had a friend in college named Tom who was from NYC (I was from a small farm town in Upstate NY)and he had a female friend whose boyfriend worked for Marvel. Tom thought I was really good at drawing so he arranged a meeting, through his friend, with the art director whose name escapes me. I stayed with Tom for two weeks and went to the Marvel Offices in Manhattan a couple of times. What I recall most was Jim Shooter because he was really, really huge and seemed kind of nasty. The tension in that office was palpable. Everyone looked angry and the office seemed to be in chaos.I was led to believe I'd probably get to drawn Captain America, but when I went in to learn more it was like they didn't even remember I'd been there a few days prior. This was maybe 1987 or possibly '86. Anyhow, I was very young and naive and thought Marvel would be my dream job but the reality was a whole other story! Some guy just walked up to me and shoved a bunch of Fantastic Four pages that had been penciled by John Buscema (I'm wanting to say the She Hulk and Spiderman were in these pages)and informed me I'd be inking those if I wanted to, and didn't seem to know I was told I'd do Captain America. The whole thing was a mess and I hated NYC anyway--so I moved to Austin and worked for printers and ad firms before getting into video games and 3D in 1996. I still have those John B pages somewhere--they were photo copies. Ugh, Marvel in the 80s sounds very mixed-up! Wonder if the guy you met with was Don Perlin, who's written that "... Jim Shooter asked me to come up there and work as an art director. The senior art director at the time was John Romita, the executive art director. I was what you’d call the managing art director...They’d take three budding young cartoonists, who were a smidgen away from being professionals, pay them minimum wage, no benefits whatsoever, no sick leave or holidays. When you worked, you got paid. They stayed for a year to do the changes and corrections in the artwork. The editors would bring the pages and things that they wanted changed, corrected or fixed or whatever, and it was up to me to see that was done. I was training these young guys and after about a year they were ready to go out and get work. That was the primary purpose of that job. I was a teacher more or less..." www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/perlin.htmlNice that you still have the JB page copies, though. I had a similar experience with Electronic Arts in California.EA flew me out to San Mateo, CA to interview for the Lead Texture Artist on a James Bond game. The way it works at EA is that you interview all day long, with like 500 people all asking you the same dumb questions. By the end of the day I was practically a zombie from answering the same questions over and over and over. But here's the weird part--from the moment I got there, everybody was talking about Lord of the Rings Return of the King, NOT James Bond, and after about two hours I finally said to one of my interviewers that I thought there had been a mistake--that I was there to talk about working on James Bond. "No no no" the guy said, like I was crazy,and assured me I'd been contacted about working on ROTK. I explained that that wasn't possible, seeing that I didn't even know they were making a ROTK game. Then I caught myself and said to myself--you idiot, you're getting offered a job on a career making game and there I was arguing to be on James Bond. After that epiphany I was very docile and just went with the flow. I got the job, by the way.Ah, excellent! Thanks for the link, Bob (IIRC you provdied it some years ago on AA but good to have it handy again right here). So yes, I've seen your fantastic work before on your site, but for some reason I don't recall seeing these Marvel characters before. Now that I have, I have one question for you: Why the heck aren't you working for Marvel or DC or another comic book company? ?? Your work would fit right in with today's comics and looks better than most of the stuff that makes it into today's Marvel/DC. Man. . . Man! Bob,your whole experience with that non-process has such a ring of familiarity to it. I daresay that it's the kind of chaos which results when an artistic-folks type of organization is being run by. . . well, artistic folks, and not by managerial ones (for the most part). Lack of focus, lack of follow-through, unstructured chain of command and lines of communication. Ugh. I mean, I've been in the fine arts my entire adult life, but I really, really, REALLLLLLLY thrive in a structured, professional environment. There are are a ridiculous number of disorganized folks who insist (in a badly self-serving way) that a chaotic environment is the only legitimate incubator for proper creativity. This, of course, is UTTER bull***t--- and completely insulting to one's personal artistic process to boot. Y'know, your linear storytelling is not bad at all! Sorry to see Clint's head go all egg-shell a-la MUMMY'S REVENGE (I. . . think it was), though. Ooooooh you artists! You guys never saw a cheese ya couldn't cake, didja-? (Ha! I am ribbing you, of course---!) Were you much of a HEAVY METAL or 1984/94 reader in your youth? You definitely put me in mind of some of the better art and visuals produced by those periodicals. . . Hey, MERRY CHRISTMAS, one and all, eh? Been a VERY busy Eve here in the HB Household, and looking forward to a bouncy, fun XMas morn in. . . just a very few short hours. . . HB
|
|
|
Post by bobc on Dec 28, 2014 13:01:09 GMT -5
Merry Christmas, all! Thanks for the compliments, guys. Sharky I recently added the drawings of Dr Strange and the Black Panther/White Gorilla to my site so you probably never saw them before. Medusa is on the way!
HB you are so right about artistic types trying to run things! We had a guy at a prior company who campaigned relentlessly to be the Lead Artists on a project. He got the job (mostly because nobody else wanted it) and he was absolutely pitiful. He was one of these angry-at-the-world, faux communist artsy types that works better at some cutting edge coffee shop than a real workplace. His managerial style was that there were no managers!! Everybody was "equal" (whatever that means)and no one was allowed to voice any opinions on any art! There was no direction and likewise the game never came close to shipping. This "Lead Artist" would throw a tantrum anytime anyone dared to suggest he lead the team!
Sharky I don't do comics because I think that initial experience really soured me on the whole idea. I'd want to write as well as draw too. You know what's weird is that I wrote my Avengers story (The one on my site--those are just the first few pages) years before Bendis came along but he ended up killing Hawkeye and making Wanda mega powerful--two things Bendis did later. OH GOD--comparing myself to Bendis is an incredible buzz kill! My Avengers story was supposed to be sort of like a "What If" title--not part of any continuity. I'd never kill off Hawkeye in a real Avengers book.
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 29, 2014 19:32:15 GMT -5
Merry Christmas, all! Thanks for the compliments, guys. Sharky I recently added the drawings of Dr Strange and the Black Panther/White Gorilla to my site so you probably never saw them before. Medusa is on the way! ...You know what's weird is that I wrote my Avengers story (The one on my site--those are just the first few pages) years before Bendis came along but he ended up killing Hawkeye and making Wanda mega powerful--two things Bendis did later. OH GOD--comparing myself to Bendis is an incredible buzz kill! My Avengers story was supposed to be sort of like a "What If" title--not part of any continuity. I'd never kill off Hawkeye in a real Avengers book. Wait a minute, you and Bendis came up with the same storyline? That's prettty coincidental--one might even call it suspicious. And "Bobc" and "BMB" (as he is known) do sound somewhat similar... hmmm... Anyway bobc (if that's who you really are !), I love Medusa, she's always been a favorite of minr--let us know when you add her to your site!
|
|