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Post by ultron69 on Feb 13, 2014 7:35:17 GMT -5
To be honest, HB, I usually don't care for it in film, either. It did work well in Citizen Kane, less so in Lawrence of Arabia. I can think of a book where I did enjoy it though - Dracula.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 13, 2014 8:45:23 GMT -5
To be honest, HB, I usually don't care for it in film, either. It did work well in Citizen Kane, less so in Lawrence of Arabia. I can think of a book where I did enjoy it though - Dracula. Yep, good call on that novel. Am I remembering that Frankenstein (the novel) also uses that device? That we open the book up in the Arctic? Or is that one of the many film versions? The more I think of films that use it, the more I come up with mysteries, or films that at least have a "mystery" structure. Even CITIZEN KANE was ostensibly about tracking down who exactly "Rosebud" was. What can goof it up is that, unless the film-maker is VERY careful, he can give his whole film away. USUAL SUSPECTS? The moment Kaiser Sose'(sp?) first appears on-screen "in disguise" (no spoilers), it's clear that it cannot be anyone else from specific details in that opening. Similarly with the Dennis Quaid re-make of DOA, an inexplicable, passing reaction from a supporting character early in the film gives away the whodunit, which may have contributed to the tedium of what seemed like an otherwise decent film. Ah, but this isn't the "Classic Film Club" thread, heh. So sorry-- very easy to swing off on that kind of tangent! Hey, and looking forward to Wundy's upcoming choice--! Perhaps. . . perhaps we should revisit the Crossing/Timeslide story, in order to plumb it for undiscovered depth and and visual & literary artistry-- propelling it to new, unprecedented levels of fan affection and appreciation! Yeah? Yeah? Whatcha think, WGB? That opportunity is WIDE OPEN, pal! (Yarharharharharhaaaaaar!!!!) HB
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Post by sharkar on Feb 13, 2014 10:42:21 GMT -5
I mentioned it (the well-worn device) in the first place because when I read the beginning of #244, damned if I didn't think of that great classic movie version of Wuthering Heights, the Wyler one, which (unlike the novel) also begins (and ends) in said fashion. Hmmm, or maybe I thought of that particular movie because of all the freaking snow we've been having on the East Coast lately (take a look at the beginning and end of that film again to--er--catch my drift... )
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 13, 2014 13:51:18 GMT -5
To be honest, HB, I usually don't care for it in film, either. It did work well in Citizen Kane, less so in Lawrence of Arabia. I can think of a book where I did enjoy it though - Dracula. Yep, good call on that novel. Am I remembering that Frankenstein (the novel) also uses that device? That we open the book up in the Arctic? Or is that one of the many film versions? The more I think of films that use it, the more I come up with mysteries, or films that at least have a "mystery" structure. Even CITIZEN KANE was ostensibly about tracking down who exactly "Rosebud" was. What can goof it up is that, unless the film-maker is VERY careful, he can give his whole film away. USUAL SUSPECTS? The moment Kaiser Sose'(sp?) first appears on-screen "in disguise" (no spoilers), it's clear that it cannot be anyone else from specific details in that opening. Similarly with the Dennis Quaid re-make of DOA, an inexplicable, passing reaction from a supporting character early in the film gives away the whodunit, which may have contributed to the tedium of what seemed like an otherwise decent film. HB Good memory, HB. I believe Frankenstein is also told in the form of letters, and starts in the Arctic, or thereabouts. You're also right about those films, which is why I wish they'd generally stay away from it. That's sort of what I meant when I said that it kills the dramatic tension.
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 13, 2014 14:12:50 GMT -5
Yep, good call on that novel. Am I remembering that Frankenstein (the novel) also uses that device? That we open the book up in the Arctic? Or is that one of the many film versions? The more I think of films that use it, the more I come up with mysteries, or films that at least have a "mystery" structure. Even CITIZEN KANE was ostensibly about tracking down who exactly "Rosebud" was. What can goof it up is that, unless the film-maker is VERY careful, he can give his whole film away. USUAL SUSPECTS? The moment Kaiser Sose'(sp?) first appears on-screen "in disguise" (no spoilers), it's clear that it cannot be anyone else from specific details in that opening. Similarly with the Dennis Quaid re-make of DOA, an inexplicable, passing reaction from a supporting character early in the film gives away the whodunit, which may have contributed to the tedium of what seemed like an otherwise decent film. HB Good memory, HB. I believe Frankenstein is also told in the form of letters, and starts in the Arctic, or thereabouts. You're also right about those films, which is why I wish they'd generally stay away from it. That's sort of what I meant when I said that it kills the dramatic tension. I just watched Sunset Blvd. and it does the same thing but in a slightly different way. I had never seen the movie before and really liked except for that one aspect. I didn't want to know that the narrator was going to wind up dead and floating in the pool within the first minute of the movie. There was absolutely no shock or emotional reaction when it actually occurred because I'd known it was coming all along. I was also confused as to how he was telling the story since he was dead but that's another matter. I thought Byrne handled the device reasonably well in this story but I would still rather the convention be retired altogether. There are exceptions. I don't mind when you are given a teaser of information and then we see how we get to it and what it all means. "Breaking Bad" did that very well MOST of the time. If it's a teaser, it can add to the story. If it's a spoiler, it doesn't.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 17, 2014 17:20:02 GMT -5
Time to move on again. Wundagoreborn, whenever you want, the stage is yours
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Feb 18, 2014 18:08:08 GMT -5
I want one of those Fantastic Christmas Trees for myself! Anybody recalls how come Ben´s appearence was once again clayish (like when he first became the Thing) and not rocky?
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 18, 2014 20:35:24 GMT -5
I want one of those Fantastic Christmas Trees for myself! Anybody recalls how come Ben´s appearence was once again clayish (like when he first became the Thing) and not rocky? Boy, I can't for the life of me remember the circumstances. . . just the image at the end of the issue where it happened. Seems like there was an explosion (naturally) involved. Hmmmmmm-- possibly another failed cure-attempt? I thought Byrne did a great job of reverting Ben to that earlier look, and yet making him still visually recognizable as the same ol' Ben. HB
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Post by sharkar on Feb 18, 2014 20:47:22 GMT -5
I want one of those Fantastic Christmas Trees for myself! Anybody recalls how come Ben´s appearence was once again clayish (like when he first became the Thing) and not rocky? Reed was yet again trying to change Ben back to his human form but miscalculated...so instead, Ben reverted to an earlier version of his Thing form (i.e., the original Kirby version seen in the first several issues of the FF). This occurred in #238, the issue in which Frankie's torch powers are revealed.
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Post by wundagoreborn on Feb 20, 2014 15:24:54 GMT -5
Time to move on again. Wundagoreborn, whenever you want, the stage is yours AACK! I've been bombed by work and weather-related schedule disruptions. I haven't had a chance to read the last selection, much less think about the next one. Can I have a pass? With apologies, w
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 20, 2014 15:53:35 GMT -5
Time to move on again. Wundagoreborn, whenever you want, the stage is yours AACK! I've been bombed by work and weather-related schedule disruptions. I haven't had a chance to read the last selection, much less think about the next one. Can I have a pass? With apologies, w Sure, we can swap you and Ultron if it works for both
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 23, 2014 12:00:16 GMT -5
Sure, I can do that. I'd had in the back of my mind an Attuma story in Avengers #154-155 that I have fond memories of, but it crosses over into Super-Villain Team-Up #9 and also, I think, Avengers Annual #6 a bit (though one could make do without them) and probably not too many people have those issues, so I'll have to think of something else and get back to you.
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 23, 2014 12:44:36 GMT -5
OK, how about this instead - Avengers #246-250. The Eternals and the West Coast Avengers are costars.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 23, 2014 14:08:01 GMT -5
Sure, I can do that. I'd had in the back of my mind an Attuma story in Avengers #154-155 that I have fond memories of, but it crosses over into Super-Villain Team-Up #9 and also, I think, Avengers Annual #6 a bit (though one could make do without them) and probably not too many people have those issues, so I'll have to think of something else and get back to you. Great choices! I actually do have that SVTU as well as all the Avengers issues, so I could send them over if needs be. Totally up to you, Ultron, which of the two to choose Once the choice is finalised, if anyone needs the books, just drop me a pm as usual.
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 23, 2014 15:42:47 GMT -5
Sure, I can do that. I'd had in the back of my mind an Attuma story in Avengers #154-155 that I have fond memories of, but it crosses over into Super-Villain Team-Up #9 and also, I think, Avengers Annual #6 a bit (though one could make do without them) and probably not too many people have those issues, so I'll have to think of something else and get back to you. Great choices! I actually do have that SVTU as well as all the Avengers issues, so I could send them over if needs be. Totally up to you, Ultron, which of the two to choose Once the choice is finalised, if anyone needs the books, just drop me a pm as usual. Thanks Shiryu! I think I'll go with Avengers #246-250 this time. If this thread has legs enough to last for a second go -round, then I'll go with the Attuma story.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 24, 2014 6:22:10 GMT -5
Am I remembering right that this is the "Starfox & the Uni-Mind" story arc?
HB
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 24, 2014 14:39:01 GMT -5
Am I remembering right that this is the "Starfox & the Uni-Mind" story arc? HB Right on. You have a much better memory than I!
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 24, 2014 20:58:43 GMT -5
Great choices! I actually do have that SVTU as well as all the Avengers issues, so I could send them over if needs be. Totally up to you, Ultron, which of the two to choose Once the choice is finalised, if anyone needs the books, just drop me a pm as usual. Thanks Shiryu! I think I'll go with Avengers #246-250 this time. If this thread has legs enough to last for a second go -round, then I'll go with the Attuma story. I'm hoping it has legs for 200 go-rounds! Avengers 246-250 it is. These were some of the very first issues I've ever read, and the source of my appreciation for Milgrom's art, it will be nice to read them again. Considering that it's about 100 pages, I'd say we extend the reading time by an extra week, so everyone has a chance to take part.
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 25, 2014 7:35:47 GMT -5
That works for me. I hadn't realized how long it was, I was thinking it was 4 issues, but it's actually 5 issues, plus the last issue is double size, which I'd also forgotten.
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 26, 2014 9:41:11 GMT -5
I’ll start of by saying that the cover logo they were using at this point was pretty boring. Also, Shiryu gave us an FF story with the Avengers guest starring, and I’ve given an Avenger story with the FF guest starring. Nice, huh? I know this isn’t the most popular group of Avengers, but I do like Cap Marvel-Monica, and I kinda like Starfox too. I like the Wasp a lot, and you can’t go wrong with Vizh and Wanda (unless you’re John Byrne). I like Sersi too. I guess I like fun loving superheroes. I don’t necessarily consider myself a Milgrom fan, but the art in this story arc was very good.
Avengers #246 – We get some origin recaps here, with Cap Marvel and the Eternals and the Deviants and the Titans. I love the facial expressions on the last panel of page 13.
Avengers #247 – Does anyone else find it funny that Quicksilver is in costume as he’s visiting that cabin in Transia? Do superheroes ever change clothes? The Eternals were shockingly permissive in allowing Vizh to record their Uni-Mind ceremony, considering that this is a group of people that have hidden themselves off from mankind for millennia. There have been difference depictions of the Uni-Mind, and I see that Migrom goes for the “giant brain” depiction. I have to say, the Eternals seem a bit lazy for resorting to the Uni-Mind. “We’ll let the Uni-Mind decide for us”. Well, I guess the Uni-Mind sorta agreed with me, since the conclusion was that they’d grown stagnant on the earth.
Avengers #248 – That’s quite an evil smile Vizh has when he hugs Wanda after they’ve made up! Yeesh! Maelstrom didn’t have too much trouble taking out Cap Marvel, which I think it key in any battle with the Avengers. I think that at times, she’s their most powerful member, and writers have to rack their brains to figure out how to get her out of the action. Good use of Wanda’s power in this issue freeing the Uni-Mind. Wanda is another toughie to write, I think. Boy, Maelstrom is pretty powerful! Why hasn’t this dude caused more trouble in the Marvel Universe? At least there were plenty of energy projection Avengers on hand to help battle him.
Avengers #249 – This issue seems to anticipate Inferno – with a bunch of demons attacking NYC, and a bunch of Marvel superheroes having to take them on.
Avengers #250 – I love Maelstrom’s lackeys (Phoebus, Helio, Gronk) – “Master!”. Those are some devoted lackeys! Magneto & Dr. Doom would be jealous. I’m glad to see Hercules back in the fold. Cap Marvel lost a pair of overalls leaving the professor’s lab. I like how they reference why somebody else can’t help out because of what’s going on in their current mag. Continuity, people! I like the way Tigra gives Cap Marvel a pep talk. Finally a use for Tigra! I love the panels in #250 where the Avenger are all flying to Maelstrom, an each Avenger on the Quinjet gets their own thought bubble, so that we know what’s going on inside their head. It’s a nice way to compare & contrast the various personalities of the Avengers. Interesting that Starfox came up with a bright idea. I didn’t know he had it in him. OK, this isn’t the first time the old “make the villain absorb more energy than he can handle” trick has been used, but then I guess most things have been done before. The West Coast Avengers Mansion does seem like a much better place for a victory partay than the East Coast Mansion. Wondy is right – it is weird to see Vizh grinning like that! Starfox’s pleasure center power is one of the more interesting superhero powers, but like Jan says, it could be a bit creepy. It’s odd to see his hair mused up in those closing panels where he’s talking to Cap Marvel, but it’s nice to not see those funny horns for once, plus it’s a nice artistic touch to give us a feel for the ocean breeze. That was a nice little closing scene with the two of them.
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Post by starfoxxx on Feb 26, 2014 18:13:15 GMT -5
I just checked out ultron69's comments on this "arc" and got nostalgiac (sp.) This was during my FIRST year of collecting Avengers (and comics in general) starting with picking up #240. I wish I could dig these issues up, but they're buried deep down. I'm interested in how the CBC (classic books club) views Starfox. I think he gets a lot of bad press, but I always saw him as a cool addition to the team (okay, I was 10). And I still think #250 has a great cover, and remains one of my favorite comics (the more Avengers, the more I like it.)
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 27, 2014 7:35:51 GMT -5
I thought you might like this arc, Starfoxxx! I did like Starfox. As I mentioned, I do like fun loving heroes (not to say that I don't love the Vision and Black Panther tough) so I did like having him around. His pleasure center power was also interesting.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 27, 2014 11:51:22 GMT -5
I'm interested in how the CBC (classic books club) views Starfox. I think he gets a lot of bad press, but I always saw him as a cool addition to the team (okay, I was 10). Hmmm, how does the CBC (love it!!) view Starfox? Well, speaking for myself I'm in agreement with Wanda: Visually he's great, but I was never really a fan of the character. However I bought the Absolute Vision Book 1 trade some weeks ago and it includes Starfox's and Monica's early stints as Avengers, an era I was unfamiliar with. The stories (Avg. 231-241) and characterizations have been interesting and involving, and I've gained a better appreciation of both characters. Ultron69: Excellent choice for our reading, thanks! Love your commentary, esp. the references to Vizh's "evil smile."
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Post by ultron69 on Feb 28, 2014 9:52:05 GMT -5
Thanks, Sharkar!
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Post by Marvel Boy on Feb 28, 2014 18:30:13 GMT -5
Given the number of issues in this read and my work schedule, I'm going to break up my discussion into smaller groups rather than all the issues at once. (And terrific suggestion ultron ) So first up, #246-247. The first thing I notice is the title change, 'The Mighty Avengers'. I have never noticed that till now. I don't remember the switch back when I got these issues in the mail. Does anyone know why they changed the title at that time? I read #246 and instantly recalled why I liked Starfox. Calm, polite, charming, suave, a great costume, and can pack a punch. Taking Janet with him to crash Sersi's party (and with a large smile on his face), it was a groovy moment. I'm also appreciate the time Stern takes to explore the ramifications of Monica's new powers and status. I love her father's response upon realizing that she is an Avenger. ("Then, you've met Captain America?!") Is there some limit on using the image of the President? When Vizh and Wanda met Reagan, we never see him full-faced. In fact, the only instance I can remember of seeing a full-faced Reagan was in DC's Legends mini by Bryne and Ostrander. So didn't know if they weren't allowed to use his image without his permission. Milgrom, again, provides solid work here. The party scenes were frantic, Jan's facial expressions when she was depressed, and the fight scenes were exciting. In fact, I love the panel near the end when Starfox and Janet board the craft trying to rescue Sersi; Starfox strikes quite the heroic pose as he punches the bad guys. And the issue ends on a terrific cliffhanger. I love the cover to #247, more-so for Starfox's caption. It's an interesting image on it's own but Starfox saying "I don't know about this" makes it more menacing and slightly comical all at once. Very good recap of Eternal history. Vision's behaviour is wonderfully erratic and scary, foreshadowing what is to come. (The idea of the Avengers Chairman being a Cabinet-level post is...odd). What the Eternals did to the Deviants, that is disturbing to read now. The appearance of Maelstrom at the end was quick and shocking, another great cliffhanger. These issues run smack in the middle of 'my run' (as HB would say), when I really started following the team's adventures. The team of Stern, Milgrom, and Sinnott are in full swing here, giving you the faithful reader plenty of characterization, action, and surprises. This reminds me why I love Marvel. Doing re-reads such as these also gives me the pleasure of re-reading the Bullpen Bulletins and letters pages. I like seeing where these issues fit into the history of Marvel. For example, around the time of #246, we see the premiere of the Power Pack and Transformers #1! And if I recall correctly, along with building up the Vision storyline here, Stern was also building up the Hobgoblin mystery over in ASM. Wonderful storytelling all around. And the letter pages were full of excitement over the upcoming release of the West Coast Avengers. Imagine, TWO Avengers titles! Ah, the simpler days......
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 1, 2014 10:48:52 GMT -5
Marvel Boy, I think that because the President is considered a public person (I'm sure that's not the right legal term) Marvel should be able to use his image without permission (sorta how the paparazzi & gossip rages get away with all that stuff) but, not being a lawyer, I could be totally of base on this.
I too liked the way Stern handled Monica talking with her family., and I too love the way Starfox unabashedly crashes Sersi's party.
Yes, what the Eternals did to the Deviants was disturbing, and I think that may have been intentional.
House ads and letters pages (though I don't always read the letters pages) are one reason why I prefer back issues to TPB's.
Yes, only two Avengers titles, the good ol' days!
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Post by starfoxxx on Mar 1, 2014 11:22:00 GMT -5
Maybe Starfox pretty much dropping off the face off Earth-616 by the end of the 1980s was due to the switch to "dark and gritty" superhero comics by the early 1990s. I've never been a fan of "dark" comics, I like fun comics. Eros was the epitome of the swash-buckling, fun-loving hero, and brought that sense of fun to his adventures, IMO.
I believe Marvel tried to inject some fun characters into the MU into the 1990s, but they were either lame (Speedball), or just too goofy for my taste (the Mojoverse, X-babies, later Excalibur stuff). I will commend Byrne for trying to keep Marvel fun with introducing the Great lakes Avengers (I liked them, kinda felt like a DC parody team) and the She-Hulk series (although his scatalogical humor here didn't really connect with me). And Hembeck would show up with lame jokes, but great art, IMO.
Oh, and you can't beat the Impossible Man when written well. (Check out X-men Annual #7, with an Avengers cameo, one of my favorites). Sorry to go off on the tangent.
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 1, 2014 18:51:21 GMT -5
I like fun comics, too Starfox, which is one reason that I despise 90's Marvel comics. And I vaguely recall enjoying that X-Men Annual #7.
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 3, 2014 10:55:40 GMT -5
Okey-doke-- I've gotten through issues 246-248 so far, and feel enlightened enough to join in the conversation (well, hopefully). First of all, I am LOVING the fact that this is the "my run" (thanks for the shout-out, MarvBoy for at least one respected colleague, and has very high sentimental value for at least a couple of others (Ultron & Starfoxxx-- hiya fellas-!). The "Milgrom" period of the book seems to be generally held in very low regard, and I'm pretty much in that camp-- and yet, in spite of not exactly enjoying the book during this long period, there is no question that it kept me engaged and waiting for the next issue every month. Sort of like a soap opera that you don't really like. . . and yet can't bring yourself to miss an installment of. How do I put it? I found myself caring about the book even as I could readily admit that I didn't like or enjoy it very much. One thing I'll say in it's favor, though, is that these three issues hold together MUCH better as a consecutive read, rather than as monthly installments. My biggest problem, generally, is Milgrom's pencils-- which I've talked about before at length. I'm just not a big fan at all. And I've made the case at some point that the unsung hero of this run is Joe Sinnott, 'cause in my mind he really saves this book visually. Issue #246, here, goes a long way toward supporting that view, I think. Joe can't solve Al's problems with stiff movement, but he adds a tremendous amount of depth and dimensionality to the figures, and even manages to minimize some of Al's problems with hinky perspective and scale. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the superior facial work we see in this issue belongs to Joe. Why so bold? Because the credits list "Joe Sinnott and Crew" as the embellishers, and whereas everything up to about page 15 (and maybe 16) looks to me to be pure (or mostly) Joe, by page 17 someone else is clearly involved as well. Same with 18 & 19-- it looks like an attempt to mimic Joe's style, maybe, but the faces simply aren't as good. Page 20? If at least part of that page isn't John Byrne's inks, I'll eat an acid-free backing board. Page 21, the inks are frankly dreadful-- almost un-inked looking, and I feel like this rather exposes Al's short-comings a bit too much. Page 22 looks like it may be yet another hand at the board (compare it, say, to pages 6,7 & 9 for contrast), as Jan doesn't look like the same person we've been seeing up to this point. In #247, we get Joe back at full strength as the Finisher over Al's Breakdowns, and I think this saves what is honestly an intensely text-heavy, background-heavy, intrigue-heavy, and action-FREE installment. If it weren't for clear, dramatic facial reactions throughout the book, I'm not sure it would be engaging at all (remember my soap-opera allusion?). I'll confess that I always found the Eternals dull as toast up to that point-- sort of an obvious and unnecessary Inhumans knock-off-- so my investment in their fate was pretty much a seismic flatline. And geeze, the whole genocide-cube thing is still horrifying to me. . . I'm curious what Stern's true take on it was. Did he invent that, or was it leftover from previous Eternals handlers? It really only added to my distaste for the bunch. And I guess I'll stick w/ the art for just a bit more in #248, 'cause I still have a couple of gripes (sorry team, sorry-- these thoughts have been simmering for years). 1) SO MANY PANELS have absolutely no background at all! Just figures in a blank box. I know it's a time-honored deadline-saving technique (I'm lookin' at you, Happy Herbie Trimpe), but it's particularly egregious in this issue, and is exacerbated by, 2) Some really dreadful color-palate choices throughout. It is rare that I find myself noticeably put off by the work of the colorist-- but this issue has stood out for me for some time. We seem to get an awful lot of pink, and a LOT of mandarin orange throughout. Many panels look like they had a "use all the crayons" mandate (check out the bottom panel of page 4, for instance). Very little use of neutral tones or earth tones, so that the garish costumes clash with each other and with the backgrounds, making it literally hard to look at. And yet for all that-- page 21, left-hand panel? That is a terrific reaction shot. It's the other thing I remember from this issue. Go figure. Okay-- enough, ENOUGH of the HB fussing, already! HB
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Post by ultron69 on Mar 3, 2014 12:37:04 GMT -5
Good choice, HB. The acid-free backing boards taste much better. I'd said that I don't consider myself a Milgrom fan but that I thought the art here was good. So yes, Sinnott probably deserves a lot of credit. Nice art analysis, by the way.
I'm under the impression that Stern didn't approve of the Eternals' treatment of the Deviants. I don't have the books with me, but I seem to recall Jan & Monica's reaction was less than enthusiastic when they found this out, sort of like "what sort of people are we dealing with?" Still, if he did disapprove, he glossed over it pretty quickly.
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