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Post by Marvel Boy on May 16, 2013 0:05:30 GMT -5
In the current Avengers thread here and within a few other discussions elsewhere, talk has been made over Widow's callous execution of five war criminals. This has gotten me wondering, throughout the team's long history, how many instances have there been of a member crossing the line and killing someone?
Shiryu mentioned Hawkeye killing Egghead in order to save Hank's life. I might consider the whole team's actions against the Kree in Operation Galactic Storm but I think Avengers Forever said that Immortus influenced their actions there.
Only heroes who were actively serving on the team should be considered here. I wouldn't count Logan's past actions as either a Dept. H agent, X-Man, or on his own nor would I count Namor's various assaults on surface dwellers over the years.
Thoughts?
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Post by tomspasic on May 16, 2013 4:17:25 GMT -5
Oh, this could be a long post. But to sum it up succinctly, the Bendis Era. In more detail, lets start with Luke Cage. In the Raft storyline he comes across an escaping Purple Man, who immediately attempt to control Cage. However Purple Man has been drugged so his powers do not work. He has no powers. No strength, no speed, no durability. Instead of knocking him out with one punch, or restraining him with a bent pipe, the 300lb, super strong, steel skinned Cage beats Purple man for several pages, all the while letting other actual super powered criminals escape. In fact, Cage only stops his vicious, bullying assault when Cap calls out to him. And lest we think this brutal punishment beating is deserved, bear in mind Bendis already wrote this scene in Alias, but with his other favourite Jessica Jones delivering the protracted beating. Purple Man has no powers at that point in the Raft story, is on an island and unlikely to be able to swim to freedom. He is no threat to anyone, has committed no crimes he is not already imprisoned for, but gets a sickening beating from our "hero". Then there is the super strength Cage kicking the non-super strength Elektra, a woman, in the groin, without warning, as an opening move in a fight. I just want to reiterate that. A superstrong man kicks a non-powered woman in the groin, without warning. 25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_map94zBTeS1qgj9g6o1_500.jpgThen there is Cage watching while his new teammates Venom and Osborne torture skrulls, eating one alive. Then there is Cage organizing the beating, torture and intimidation of a woman scientist in police custody, in a police station. Cage Punching a surrendered, non-super-powered AIM tech in the face for talking, while the guy has his hands behind his head and is walking up a ramp into a SHIELD/police transport. I could go on and on. Almost every time Bendis wrote Cage hitting someone, it was Cage cold-cocking them from behind, without warning. And this is the guy they give Avengers Mansion to? More to come on other "heroes" in the Bendis Era...
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Post by ultron69 on May 16, 2013 12:14:28 GMT -5
I know that Black Knight and Sersi both intentionally killed villains in the early 90's.
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Post by dlw66 on May 16, 2013 12:24:23 GMT -5
Tom --
You very ably sum up why I quit reading new comics. And coincidentally, I had just gotten done perusing Marvel's new offerings on the web before I came over here. I no longer know any of those characters, nor do I care. Fully justified, am I.
Doug
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Post by Crimson Cowl on May 16, 2013 13:38:07 GMT -5
The Immortus influenced explanation of the slaying of the Supreme Intelligence by Iron Man, Black Knight et al is a total cop out, but as the original story was so dire I don't actually care. Yellowjacket killed that fairyland woman back c.Avengers 112, which is what he was put on trial for. It was more a case of being inept whilst under emotional stress than premeditated murder though. Under the parameters given I suspect that Iron Man was probably an active member back when his armour was remotely controlled by Justin Hammer so that the repulsors tore right through some diplomat guy back when David Micheline wrote the book (with JR Jr on the artwork). Can't remember the ish, but probably in the 120's (of his own mag). Again, not deliberate but surely would've merited an official Avengers hearing and potential disciplinary action. I know that Black Knight and Sersi both intentionally killed villains in the early 90's. Yeah, that was when Bob Harrass was under the misapprehension that he was Frank Miller and Chris Claremont rolled into one. Speaking of characters being unrecognizable, his Black Knight suddenly seemed to be the fulfillment of the writers tragic fantasies, growing a mullet and designer stubble in order to become Marvel's answer to Don Johnson and Richard Dean Anderson (only in the wrong decade!). This sudden enthusiasm for extremely dated fashion stylings bizarrely coincided with the Avengers' most glamorous ladies tripping over each other to bed him. Some of the most embarrassing writing ever, and a clear case of the author ignoring all prior depictions in order to turn a favourite into a vehicle for his personal fantasies. Retch inducing.
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Post by ultron69 on May 17, 2013 6:58:47 GMT -5
Tom -- You very ably sum up why I quit reading new comics. And coincidentally, I had just gotten done perusing Marvel's new offerings on the web before I came over here. I no longer know any of those characters, nor do I care. Fully justified, am I. Doug Count me in agreement.
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Post by ultron69 on May 17, 2013 7:03:09 GMT -5
I know that Black Knight and Sersi both intentionally killed villains in the early 90's. Yeah, that was when Bob Harrass was under the misapprehension that he was Frank Miller and Chris Claremont rolled into one. Speaking of characters being unrecognizable, his Black Knight suddenly seemed to be the fulfillment of the writers tragic fantasies, growing a mullet and designer stubble in order to become Marvel's answer to Don Johnson and Richard Dean Anderson (only in the wrong decade!). This sudden enthusiasm for extremely dated fashion stylings bizarrely coincided with the Avengers' most glamorous ladies tripping over each other to bed him. Some of the most embarrassing writing ever, and a clear case of the author ignoring all prior depictions in order to turn a favourite into a vehicle for his personal fantasies. Retch inducing. Miller and Claremont rolled into one? That's a great way of putting it. Unfortunately, the main artist during that run, Steve Epting, also seemed to think he was Frank Miller. You're right that Harras ruined the Black Knight character, but then he ruined Crystal and Sersi (turning her into a psychotic "tough broad") so why should we be surprised he ruined Dane?
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Post by Marvel Boy on May 18, 2013 0:27:25 GMT -5
Wow, that is stunning to see about Luke Cage. The level of violence is unreal. Cap's reaction is all wrong (Good Man? For what? Stopping or beating up Purple Man in the first place??)
I've never understood how or why Cage became an Avenger to begin with. But if Bendis has his own Trinity of Avengers, it's Cage, Ms. Marvel and Spider-Woman.
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Post by tomspasic on May 20, 2013 2:59:31 GMT -5
Wow, that is stunning to see about Luke Cage. The level of violence is unreal. Cap's reaction is all wrong (Good Man? For what? Stopping or beating up Purple Man in the first place??) I've never understood how or why Cage became an Avenger to begin with. But if Bendis has his own Trinity of Avengers, it's Cage, Ms. Marvel and Spider-Woman. Yes, that "Good man" still rankles nearly a decade on. How is pursuing a personal vendetta against a much weaker opponent during a jailbreak "good"? I have this in my list of Cap "crossing the line" instances. I'd have put Bendis' male Trinity of Avengers as Cage, Spider-Man, and Wolverine, personally. The female trinity is Jessica Jones, Spider-Woman and Ms. Marvel. Those six characters feature in almost every comic with the name "Avengers" on the cover for a decade. I'll try to collect my "evidence" on Cap and Iron Man as time allows.
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Post by bobc on May 20, 2013 7:45:40 GMT -5
I think what you guys are trying to say is that comic book characters today lack honor.
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Post by humanbelly on May 23, 2013 20:40:42 GMT -5
That's almost too tactfully put, bobc-- but yes, I think you've summed it up nicely. Man, it all makes me literally sick to my stomach. The Skrulls are devious world-conquering bad-guys, yes, I get that. But the fact that they're non-human somehow seemed to give Bendis the idea that he had free rein to treat them as if they weren't actually people, either, and he gleefully surrendered to committing horrible atrocities upon them. There was the Mighty Avengers issue where one was interogated, tortured, and killed by Masque and a few others-- it was sickening, but it's a walk in the park compared to this episode. To stand by while one helpless sentient creature is viciously eaten alive by another? Good god, I wouldn't let that happen even if it meant surrendering my own life at that point. No honor? Hell, no COMPASSION. . . no HUMANITY, even. The same goes for the recent discussion of Natasha's callous torture & execute tactics. Natasha herself was the victim of torture (at the Viper's hands) severe enough that it caused her to retreat into a "cover" personality in Marvel Team-Up. My wife's more conversant in these matters than I, but I suspect that victims of that kind of torture will almost never EVER be willing to deal it out with such dimissive casualness. Really, not ever deal it out at all, I imagine.
Interestingly, I've been going through that much earlier "crossed-the-line" precedent in WCA, with Bobbi having let the Phantom/Night/Ghost Rider FALL to his death (after he'd tried to kill her, and even as he was still threatening her) upon discovering that he'd drugged, brainwashed, and raped her. And somehow that was considered crossing an uncrossable line, and was ultimately the reason for her & Clint's break-up (that, and her not being truthful about the event in the first place). It was certainly presented as a balanced debate in the book, although Englehart's writing style at that point had all the subtlety and nuance of a cherry-blast Slurpee-- but even then it seemed like the gravity of the Rider's offense should have FAR outweighed any overriding sense of "Avengers Moral Code" or anything. And it just wasn't treated that way.
Such a big deal then. And now beating up and killing henchmen and other bad guys seems like just another tool in the box. Ugh.
HB
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Post by ultron69 on May 24, 2013 7:15:28 GMT -5
Ah, I'm so glad I don't read modern comics anymore.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 7, 2013 12:52:40 GMT -5
Was Wolverine actually made an Avenger solely because they said they needed a killer on the team? And Cap agreed?!
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