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Post by ultron69 on May 24, 2013 7:19:36 GMT -5
I like Firestar better than Justice. Here in Avengers, I did like Justice but his history and timeline was always confusing to me. As for Firestar, I was surprised to see how long it took her to make it to the comics as well. Imagine my surprise when I saw this on the rack many moons ago: Ah, the good ol' days. That's awesome! I should loook for that on ebay.
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Post by humanbelly on May 24, 2013 7:47:20 GMT -5
I was always at odds with how I felt about Triathlon. I think the character had potential but just never really connected. For one thing, the whole "Strength of 3 men" didn't seem like a great power to me. I've seen pretty much every Avenger defeat more than 3 mean with ease so that doesn't seem like a big deal. There was also his association with the Triune Understanding which dragged him down as a character. I didn't hate him but I was just waiting for his big moment and it never came. Even though I had trouble warming up to Triathlon as well, I did kind of always appreciate the fact of him, as it were. - He represented Busiek's contribution to the now-traditional stable of "pet" characters that each major Avengers scribe has created from whole cloth or resurrected from deep obscurity over the years. Other examples, of course, being the Black Knight, the Vision, Mantis, Wonder Man, Rage, uh-DeathCry, Monica Marvel-- and I'm sure a few others. Kurt gets to have one too, eh? -Honestly, I like the lower-to-mid-level aspect of his powers. He's more "super", as it were, than Cap, Hawkeye, Black Widow and all of the other regular folks, but not a building-leveler like practically everyone else. Given his physical conditioning, he should routinely be able to press almost a half-ton. He should be able to sprint at 35 to 45 MPH. His reflexes would be unbelievably fast. His stamina would be comparatively relentless. This would be a great utility hero to have on any team, as you could plunk him into almost any non-flying squad, and he'd be able to contribute. I think it's just a little tougher to make it compelling in a narrative situation. -I liked that era's re-imagining of the JSA, so the whole legacy aspect of his powers and origin was very appealing to me. -His Triune Understanding connection tiptoed up to the borders of religious tolerance issues, which had the potential for interesting exploration, but you're right--- it petered out unsatisfactorily. Really, his biggest drawback was probably an unremarkable personal characterization. Minority character w/ a chip on his shoulder who's gonna prove himself even as he keeps the personal walls up. An understandable scenario, of course, but not original. My young pal Rage was honestly more personally compelling and interesting. Heck, take out the minority element and you've got Hawkeye. Or pretty much every mutant. Chips on shoulders. . . they've never worked for me. HB
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Post by humanbelly on May 29, 2013 11:53:30 GMT -5
But that's Hercules?! Geezus, that is so wrong and horrible on so many levels. Wellllllll, to be perfectly fair about it, there is a muchmuchmuch earlier precedent of Herc shaving his beard in order to mingle more easily w/ us modern-day mortal folks. He sort of became an Avengers "companion" 'waaaay back in issue #38, and by #46 he'd exposed that lantern jaw for all the lovely maids to swoon over. And then by, like, issue #52 he was called back to Olympus or something (seem to remember Zeus making some cutting remark about Herc's shaven face being unseemly, or similar). But the incarnation you see above was even more a travesty than the rough-trade attire might indicate. Under yet another "punishment" mandate, his power was cut roughly in half, and I'm pretty sure his immortality was, uh, revoked. He also stopped speaking in that pseudo-Elizabethan dialect entirely (a conscious choice on his part), which of course completely robbed him of any distinctive characterization at all. If ever there was a hero who loved extoll his own virtues w/ flowery, over-the-top rhetoric. . . The worst, though, was that the writers were just beginning to explore a budding romance between him and *gulp* Deathcry. This was BEYOND creepy, because Deathcry was then being written as a smart-aleck 14-year-old teenage girl. As the parent of one of those right now myself, I see that the resemblance is uncanny. Herc is, what, 3000 years old or so? At what point did someone think this would be appropriate? Fortunately (and I can't believe this could be considered "good fortune" in ANY context other than this one), Timeslide or Onslaught or Heroes Reborn or something came tearing through and completely wiped out this and all other terrible in-progress storylines (Teen Tony, Insect Wasp, etc, etc). HB-- the man w/ the Exposition you Never Asked For!
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Post by Crimson Cowl on May 29, 2013 12:16:10 GMT -5
HB-- the man w/ the Exposition you Never Asked For! Even just reading your exposition I feel like I'm going on a bad acid trip.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 6, 2013 22:22:24 GMT -5
I haven't added to the covers lately but I believe the next one up is Silver Claw. This was a character that seemed to have some level of possibility but it never really manifested. An interesting cover, to say the least Not much on this one really does much for me but SC wasn't on a lot so there aren't that many choices. Just like the character, the stories that SC was involved with were just forgettable.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 7, 2013 5:34:56 GMT -5
I haven't added to the covers lately but I believe the next one up is Silver Claw. This was a character that seemed to have some level of possibility but it never really manifested. ] Just like the character, the stories that SC was involved with were just forgettable. I always have trouble remembering her name! You're right, though, she wasn't an awful character at all, just never got explored enough to make us care about her. . . other than the one storyline (which was indeed visually gorgeous) where her native village was shifted back to ancient times or something. I liked the fact that she was South American, and was a solidly nice teenage girl (I can still be a sucker for creative PC casting, I guess), and IIRC Perez did a nice job of not anglicizing her look. BUT-- her basic superhuman trope was identical to Alpha Flight's Snowbird: female offspring of a local "goddess" mother and human father, who is able to shape-shift into the forms of the indigenous fauna. To her credit, though, Lupe (I had to look up her name) had a much more engaging personality than odd Snowbird ever did. And, oh MAN-- she's TOTALLY a big-time candidate for the Superhero Roommate thread! A poor orphan child from a third world nation, she picks up a sponsor: Edwin Jarvis, who just happens to be the personal butler/house manager for the Avengers. How, uh, fortunate that the one young non-mutant superhero in Costa Verde just happened to form a direct long-distance bond with the ONE person that could bring her under the umbrella of that pre-eminent group! (At the time, I expressed yet another audible, "you gotta be kiddin' me--") HB
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 7, 2013 7:04:36 GMT -5
HB, did you compare your daughter to Deathcry?
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 7, 2013 7:58:33 GMT -5
HB, did you compare your daughter to Deathcry? I'll tell ya, Ult, being a parent makes you see the world through a whole new lens. . . Ha! But, she was actually born the same month as Avengers vol3 #9, so a comparison to Lupe might be more apt. I'll tell ya, though, Lupe seems to be a MUCH easier-to-get-along-with teenager, believe me! Hmm, that would go over well, "Look, HBGirl-- see how nice THIS young woman is in this Avengers comic? Why can't you be more like HER??" Ohhhhhh, yeah. . . no eye-rolling or derisive snorts at THAT, I'm sure. . . ;D HB
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 7, 2013 12:07:54 GMT -5
That situation you describe with Herc and Deathcry reminds me of a similar situation over in JSA some years back. Then, Shazam (Capt. Marvel) was in a burgeoning relationship with Star Girl. Actually it was Billy who was developing feelings for the young Courtney and while they are both about the same age, to the other JSAers, it appeared as if the older Cap was hitting on a teenage girl (Few knew of his identity as the kid Billy). Jay Garrick and Alan Scott stepped up to say a few discreet things about it and that combined with the Solomon's Wisdom, Billy decided to end it. Johns and Goyer handled it very well, much better than how it appears Herc and Deathcry went. (And for the record, on that cover during that time, I hate that Avengers logo) And, oh MAN-- she's TOTALLY a big-time candidate for the Superhero Roommate thread! A poor orphan child from a third world nation, she picks up a sponsor: Edwin Jarvis, who just happens to be the personal butler/house manager for the Avengers. How, uh, fortunate that the one young non-mutant superhero in Costa Verde just happened to form a direct long-distance bond with the ONE person that could bring her under the umbrella of that pre-eminent group! (At the time, I expressed yet another audible, "you gotta be kiddin' me--") HB I was just thinking that! It's a small, small Marvel world after all! ;D
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 8, 2013 1:53:01 GMT -5
Next up - Jack of Hearts. Not a particular favorite of mine. Can't say I hated him but I never really connected with his story. I've used this cover before but it bears repeating This was his best cover, even though he came off as a jerk on it. I've been doing 3 covers but I could only find 2 here. If someone can find a 3rd that I missed please throw it out here.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 9, 2013 22:37:42 GMT -5
We are fast approaching the end of the characters I plan to use for this thread. I will not be doing the Bendis additions at all but I do have a plan to proceed forward. Next up - Ant man (Scott Lang) Scott hasn't appeared on all that many covers but 2 out of 3 that I've chosen also made the list for another character. This is an all time favorite cover for me. This came right in the midst of one of my favorite stories ever and was a pretty good issue on it's own. This one is really redundant since Jack of Hearts was the last entry but oh well.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 10, 2013 8:33:46 GMT -5
Next up - Jack of Hearts. Not a particular favorite of mine. Can't say I hated him but I never really connected with his story. This was his best cover, even though he came off as a jerk on it. I've been doing 3 covers but I could only find 2 here. If someone can find a 3rd that I missed please throw it out here. The abandonment of Jack's story was a "beginning of the end" development for me. Not a favorite character of mine either, but his dilemma was tremendously compelling. And I think that his prickly, easily set-off temperament was being written quite well as a natural reaction to the utter hell that his life was clearly on the road to becoming. His description of the devastating forced boredom during his increasingly long terms in that energy chamber particularly sticks with me. NOTHING to pass the time. And clearly he was on the road to having to exist in that vault w/out ever getting out. He's just a guy, really, facing a life-sentence in sensory-deprivation solitary confinement. I was liking the potential in-team story potential it represented, and then he was killed off in what amounted to a filler-issue (albeit a pretty good one). Clearly, someone decided he was more trouble than he was worth, which is too bad. A solid two issues that focused on him (and getting his condition resolved) could have been a complete turnaround for this character. And while the animosity between him & Scott seemed on the edge of forced, it did still represent a volatile, real-workplace kind of element to the team. And of course one hopes to see a reconciliation try to happen there. I mean, that would all have been better, long-term story-telling than an unfortunately almost-cliche' demise in a righteous act of self-sacrifice. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 10, 2013 8:44:59 GMT -5
We are fast approaching the end of the characters I plan to use for this thread. I will not be doing the Bendis additions at all but I do have a plan to proceed forward. Next up - Ant man (Scott Lang) Scott hasn't appeared on all that many covers but 2 out of 3 that I've chosen also made the list for another character. This is an all time favorite cover for me. This came right in the midst of one of my favorite stories ever and was a pretty good issue on it's own. This one is really redundant since Jack of Hearts was the last entry but oh well. Hunh. I'm not particularly Ant-Manic, but all three of those covers would make my Top 25 Avengers Covers. Yeah, that one w/ Hawkeye is on my All Covers list, in fact (I think we discussed it at length sometime 'waaaaay back . Boy, always like Scott Lang in this role, too. I really liked the "single-dad w/ a rocky past" aspect. Just far, FAR too few Dads out there in superherodom. . . although I do completely recognize why that would be the case. It's an old, old debate in this genre', eh? HB
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 10, 2013 9:54:02 GMT -5
For another Jack of Hearts cover, I came across #57: He's barely there, but I do like the reflection in Cap's shield. Most of the deaths that Bendis inflicted upon his first arrival have been reversed by the time he left the book. Did Scott Lang come back or is he still dead?
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 10, 2013 12:33:04 GMT -5
HB, did you compare your daughter to Deathcry? I'll tell ya, Ult, being a parent makes you see the world through a whole new lens. . . Ha! But, she was actually born the same month as Avengers vol3 #9, so a comparison to Lupe might be more apt. I'll tell ya, though, Lupe seems to be a MUCH easier-to-get-along-with teenager, believe me! Hmm, that would go over well, "Look, HBGirl-- see how nice THIS young woman is in this Avengers comic? Why can't you be more like HER??" Ohhhhhh, yeah. . . no eye-rolling or derisive snorts at THAT, I'm sure. . . ;D HB You know which issue of the Avengers came out when your child was born. Now, that's what I call an Avengers fan! My son is 21 months old, so I don't want to think of what was out on the stands then. Yes, the old "why can't you be more like so-and-so" line usually works like gangbusters. ;D
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 10, 2013 12:37:04 GMT -5
That situation you describe with Herc and Deathcry reminds me of a similar situation over in JSA some years back. Then, Shazam (Capt. Marvel) was in a burgeoning relationship with Star Girl. Actually it was Billy who was developing feelings for the young Courtney and while they are both about the same age, to the other JSAers, it appeared as if the older Cap was hitting on a teenage girl (Few knew of his identity as the kid Billy). Jay Garrick and Alan Scott stepped up to say a few discreet things about it and that combined with the Solomon's Wisdom, Billy decided to end it. Johns and Goyer handled it very well, much better than how it appears Herc and Deathcry went. That does sound like a good subplot. Johns on the JSA = good stuff.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 10, 2013 12:41:41 GMT -5
We are fast approaching the end of the characters I plan to use for this thread. I will not be doing the Bendis additions at all but I do have a plan to proceed forward. Next up - Ant man (Scott Lang) Scott hasn't appeared on all that many covers but 2 out of 3 that I've chosen also made the list for another character. This is an all time favorite cover for me. This came right in the midst of one of my favorite stories ever and was a pretty good issue on it's own. This one is really redundant since Jack of Hearts was the last entry but oh well. The first two are great issues, besides being great covers. While, I've never been a big fan of the Ant-Man power set, or someone becoming a superhero by borrowing someone else's genius, I actually did connect with Scott Lang. Maybe it's just because the stories I saw him in were well written and drawn, or maybe I just liked the angle with him being a single dad superhero. Normally I hate that kind of stuff, but for some reason, I did sympathize with Scott. Plius, there's the redemption angle with him being an ex-con.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 10, 2013 12:50:01 GMT -5
That situation you describe with Herc and Deathcry reminds me of a similar situation over in JSA some years back. Then, Shazam (Capt. Marvel) was in a burgeoning relationship with Star Girl. Actually it was Billy who was developing feelings for the young Courtney and while they are both about the same age, to the other JSAers, it appeared as if the older Cap was hitting on a teenage girl (Few knew of his identity as the kid Billy). Jay Garrick and Alan Scott stepped up to say a few discreet things about it and that combined with the Solomon's Wisdom, Billy decided to end it. Johns and Goyer handled it very well, much better than how it appears Herc and Deathcry went. That does sound like a good subplot. Johns on the JSA = good stuff. It was very good-- a very quiet heartbreak for Billy/Capt Marvel. Quite a smart angle to take for that character who was always generally perceived as being angst-free in earlier incarnations. You just thought, "Oh, the poor kid. . . " HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 10, 2013 19:56:08 GMT -5
For another Jack of Hearts cover, I came across #57: He's barely there, but I do like the reflection in Cap's shield. Thank you. I knew there had to be a third one out there somewhere
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 10, 2013 20:07:19 GMT -5
The final Avenger introduced before the "end" (Hey, it's right there in his name, bENDis) was originally called the new Captain Britain but later Lionheart. The whole storyline was a bit of a mess. One issue was confusing, the next was actually quite touching, and then it was back to confusing again. In the end, she just dropped off the face of the planet. I loved the idea of the character being near her children but never being able to let them know who she was. I'd love to see her explored again by a good writer. I was only able to locate 2 covers. Ironically, she was never on a cover for the "Lion of Avalon" storyline. She made the cover of the anniversary issue in such a way as to indicate that she might actually have a future. I didn't find Kelsey on another regular issue but she was on the finale. She was right there beside the Scarlet Witch, if you look really closely.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 11, 2013 8:18:14 GMT -5
I've never heard of Lionheart, but that actually is a good name for a Captain Britain type hero. You can't spell Bendis wouth END, I like that.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 11, 2013 9:04:36 GMT -5
I think the reviled, somewhat-forgotten Chuck Austen really was a worse writer (always IMO, mind you) than BMB. I imagine Lionheart was going to be his "pet character", and man, I totally agree that right in the midst of that chaotic, ugly, badly-written, out-of-character "Lionheart of Avalon" arc there appeared one of the most moving origin stories I think I've ever read. Which then got somewhat diminished in the aftermath by absurd, poorly thought out, contrived "limitations" on how Kelsey could live her life. Particularly stupid- and impossible to justify or even control- was the mandate that if she ever revealed her true identity to her children (who were ruinously traumatized by her apparent death), those children would die. That just reeks of the worst of Golden & Silver Age arbitrarily-imposed constraints, so as to add conflict to the character's existence. But still, a solid bit of potential there for a better writer to flesh her out and continue her life as an Avenger. I'm just relieved that she did go on to have a complicated life over in the Captain Britain realm, and eventually got those dumber aspects of her existence resolved. Hmm. And there we had a second Avenger with kids. Here's a team I would have enjoyed seeing explored: Jack of Hearts Scott Lang Ant-Man Lionheart She-Hulk Iron Man Wasp (as leader?) and possibly the Vision. Wow, and there couldn't help but be a romance develop between Scott & Kelsey. Geeze, I would have LOVED that. Heh- a little bit of a Brady Bunch dynamic in play, even. . . HB (PS-- gosh, SW, I just realized that I flamed-out all over an element that you particularly liked. . . no offense intended, believe me! Please feel free to chastise me in return for being the one guy who still staunchly defends the bomber jackets, eh? )
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 11, 2013 13:58:22 GMT -5
With about 50 Avengers teams out there these days, that lineup may wind up happening, HB. I don't know much about Jack & Lionheart, but I do like the other members. Bomber jackets...noooooo! Aside from simply not liking them, it reminds me of the awful non-costumes in the "Five Years Later" Kieth Giffen Legion of Super-Heroes, not one of my favorite runs in that venerable group.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 11, 2013 15:15:39 GMT -5
With about 50 Avengers teams out there these days, that lineup may wind up happening, HB. I don't know much about Jack & Lionheart, but I do like the other members. . I think. . . I think Jack ends up w/ a pivotal role in the group dynamic, oddly enough. Hmm, sort of like that other fellow named Jack in LOST. Really good group writing to use as a model, too. Anyhoo-- Jack & Scott get to a "frenemies" status (Like. . . Fleishman & O'Connell in NORTHERN EXPOSURE, say. Well, or Jack & Sawyer in LOST. Heh.). Included into their small circle is stalwart loner, Vision. Assuming he's stable and now more or less his original "self". . . this is a guy who's never had the particularly human experience of hanging out with his pals, and forging those kinds of informal social bonds and friendships. Now's the time. Y'know, he's not what you'd think of as her "type", but Jack's an awfully handsome guy, and as far as I know, Jen's unattached, and lord knows she's not shy, and you could just imagine her wanting to get him to lighten up. . . Shortly before his demise, Jack's last hope was Tony Stark, who was at a loss to find a solution to Jack's condition. This is good "pressure" stuff for both Jack & Tony. And other dynamics: Kelsey would not like Jan a bit. Not at all. Even when Jan's at her best. Tony/Jan awkwardness? Although they seemed to have put that behind them. Plus the inevitable question of who's the dominant Alpha. Does Jen think she might be ready for a hand at chairmanship? She's certainly qualified, I daresay. Ah, there he goes again. . . Hmm-- it would seem there's not a thread in the world that's safe from an infestation of the old "hey, wouldn't THIS be a cool team" virus. Very sorry. Call H-Typhoid-B. . . H(Typhoid)B
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 11, 2013 17:28:56 GMT -5
For another Jack of Hearts cover, I came across #57: He's barely there, but I do like the reflection in Cap's shield. Most of the deaths that Bendis inflicted upon his first arrival have been reversed by the time he left the book. Did Scott Lang come back or is he still dead? Scott Lang is indeed back, although at a great price, since it took the sacrifice of his daughter Cassie to make his return permanent. He is currently starring as the leader of the Future Fundation in FF, while the Fantastic Four are out in space, and is struggling to come to terms with parenting (or rather, being the guardian of) the young kids of the FF. IIRC, his return and the death of Cassie (who was the Young Avenger Stature by that time) took place in Avengers: Children's Crusade, the story that also reintroduced the Scarlet Witch to the Marvel universe after her long absence following Disassembled. I think someone also mentioned Darkhawk earlier on: sorry to report the original DH has been one of the casualtias of Avengers Arena a few months ago, and another contestant of the Arena has now taken his place as Darkhawk.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 11, 2013 18:10:44 GMT -5
I think someone also mentioned Darkhawk earlier on: sorry to report the original DH has been one of the casualtias of Avengers Arena a few months ago, and another contestant of the Arena has now taken his place as Darkhawk. Figured that was going to happen from the first issue (The death, not the replacement). That's one of the reason I never bought any issues after the first. I simply have no interest in a book that is only there for the purpose of killing off characters.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 11, 2013 18:13:58 GMT -5
As I said, I'm not going into the bENDis era for this thread, however, if anyone else wishes to, be my guest. Instead, I decided it might be fun to focus on the Avenger's enemies instead. To get things started, the beginning seems logical so here are my top 3 Loki covers. Loki didn't show up very well on this cover but no one can deny the importance (Quality yes, importance no) of this issue. This appearance, as one of the moving forces behind the Avengers/Defenders war is a bit better. Loki has rarely shown up as an Avengers villain but, when he does, it's pretty significant. First he brought the team together, then he was behind the Avengers/Defenders war, and then he was the mastermind behind Acts of Vengeance.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 11, 2013 20:08:56 GMT -5
I think someone also mentioned Darkhawk earlier on: sorry to report the original DH has been one of the casualties of Avengers Arena a few months ago, and another contestant of the Arena has now taken his place as Darkhawk. Figured that was going to happen from the first issue (The death, not the replacement). That's one of the reason I never bought any issues after the first. I simply have no interest in a book that is only there for the purpose of killing off characters. The fact that this book even exists is beyond my ability to address fully. The human character-- the person-- is considered expendable, whereas the flippin' costume must be preserved and sustained for further appearances. BuckyCap set a precedent that seemed to deliver the wrong lesson to the folks in charge. . . HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 11, 2013 21:43:45 GMT -5
The fact that this book even exists is beyond my ability to address fully. The human character-- the person-- is considered expendable, whereas the flippin' costume must be preserved and sustained for further appearances. BuckyCap set a precedent that seemed to deliver the wrong lesson to the folks in charge. . . HB This has been true for quite some time, to my dismay. Silly me, I'm a fan of Peter Parker - not just Spider-man, Matt Murdock - not just Daredevil, Steve Rogers - not just Captain America, and so forth. The person inside the costume is what makes for an interesting character to me, not the powers. Some changes work okay, like Clint Barton becoming Goliath for a while or Scott Lang as Antman but the ones that work are far fewer than the ones that leave me high and dry.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 12, 2013 0:01:02 GMT -5
I think the reviled, somewhat-forgotten Chuck Austen really was a worse writer (always IMO, mind you) than BMB. Austen is, by far, the worst comic writer I've ever had the misfortune to read. His characterizations, dialogue and plots were atrocious. Any book he took over soon went off the rails, from X-Men to Action Comics. Thus, why I've never heard of Lionheart till now. Great name though.
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