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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 12, 2013 22:07:41 GMT -5
And now for one of my all-time favorite Avengers - Gilgamesh ;D but seriously folks... What we have here is a nicely drawn picture of a ridiculous costume. How did anyone ever think this was a good look for a Super Hero? What's the brain leech on this cover doing? Starving. They changed the costume design after only one issue. You can barely see it here but it doesn't look much better. And just when you think this character's clothing can't get any worse, he changes to...a diaper. If it's any consolation to Gil, I still liked him better than Sentry
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 14, 2013 14:35:02 GMT -5
Reed and Sue Richards were on so few covers, I may as well count them as a set. This is not a bad cover. Not a great cover either but not bad. This was just posted for Gilgamesh but not much of this line-up lasted. That's a good thing though. This is not one of most people's more fondly remembered eras. And another Gilgamesh repeat.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Apr 14, 2013 23:39:02 GMT -5
They may not be a favorite line-up nor a well-remembered roster, but I remember eagerly anticipating the arrival of #300 in the mail so I could learn who was on the new roster. As Cary Elwes as young Wesley said in The Princess Bride, "Get used to disappointment."
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Post by ultron69 on Apr 15, 2013 6:28:25 GMT -5
Yeash, the brain leach issue was like one of those really bad sci-fi movies, like Plan B From Outer Space. Gilgamesh did nothing for me. Besides being fairly redundant with Thor around, he had almost no personality. Mercifully, he was not with the team for long.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 15, 2013 8:07:32 GMT -5
Yeash, the brain leach issue was like one of those really bad sci-fi movies, like Plan B From Outer Space. Gilgamesh did nothing for me. Besides being fairly redundant with Thor around, he had almost no personality. Mercifully, he was not with the team for long. Y'know, I would love, love, LOVE to know the inside story about what was going on with "Gilgamesh" as a property or copyright or whatever. As an observant (but relatively uninformed) fan, here's what I noticed back in late 88/early 89: Jim Starlin came out w/ a high-end mini-series at DC called "Gilgamesh II" (although the "II" was very indistinct in the logo). It was cover-dated Jan '89 through Apr '89. I never bought it, myself-- too expensive. In Avengers #300 (Feb '89) we're given a new "member" on the team who is generally referenced to as the Eternal called "The Forgotten One" (convenient), and who is revealed to be none other than Gilgamesh, a figure from obscure, archaic heroic legend. I had never heard this name in my life. . . and all of a sudden it's appearing MONTHLY and SIMULTANEOUSLY in books by the Big Two??? To my mind this was a patently obvious and even pathetic attempt by corporate Marvel to snag a trademark priority on a character-name that- who knows?- might be the next "big thing". And the more I think about it at all, I'd wager that this shameless imposition was then protested by Buscema- who gave him a series of laughably awful outfits- and by Simonson, who did his level & determined best to have Gilg live up to his "Forgotten One" status. No personality at all, no mystery, no character progression, no threads-- really no dialog, even. I mean, Simonson's brief run was one of my least favorite in the series' history, but even with that I recognize that he was capable of far, far better than this. . . Any inside information bouncin' around out there? HB
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Post by bobc on Apr 15, 2013 8:27:19 GMT -5
"What's the brain leech doing in this issue? Starving." LOLLLL!!!
You know, there have been worse Avengers runs, but the cover introducing this new (at the time) team fills me with dread! I remember seeing and thinking what the____?!!!! I'm supposed to get all tingly over this lineup? And "the forgotten one?" If he was so hot, why'd everybody forget him? that costume makes him look like a dull-witted, transsexual steer!
HB--I sure hope no one at Marvel thought Gilgamesh was gonna be the next big thing. ! There's an audio book out right now called the History of Marvel Comics (something like that) on Itunes that allegedly tells all the background stories of the various eras of Marvel--but I really doubt Gilgamesh makes the cut. But who knows?! The book is or was about $100 so I skipped it. Maybe if it comes down in price I'll buy it.
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 15, 2013 10:56:29 GMT -5
IIRC, Gilgamesh doesn't say a lot even in his source Epic from cuneiform days.
But obviously if they cared or had good reason to want this character, they would have found a way to explain how Gilgamesh (and Enkidu, if they'd wanted to do it right) come to be in the MU and their mutual backstory. Makes me think HB is right - something else had to be going on.
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Post by starfoxxx on Apr 15, 2013 16:21:53 GMT -5
Possibly an all-time worst line-up, Cap, Reed and Sue, Thor, and Gilgamesh--- their heads occupied the corner box for five issues. There were plenty of guest stars, though. I really liked these covers around this time, post #300 (after a bunch of crappy covers in the #290's, IMO). Lots of nice colors #300-#325.
And I liked Steve Rogers' the Captain,USAgent costume.
A great line-up with Steve as the Captain is from the cover of Annual #17, Cap, Beast, Falcon, Jocasta, Hercules, grey Hulk, and female Yellowjacket! Remember when Annuals were so cool?
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 17, 2013 14:37:43 GMT -5
And I liked Steve Rogers' the Captain,USAgent costume. That US Agent costume I liked, yes. This John Walker costume, not so much:
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 17, 2013 22:36:51 GMT -5
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Apr 18, 2013 3:18:55 GMT -5
And I liked Steve Rogers' the Captain,USAgent costume. That US Agent costume I liked, yes. This John Walker costume, not so much: Judge Dredd Lite, anyone...?
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Apr 18, 2013 3:35:19 GMT -5
[/img] Nice cover - really emphasizes his adversarial position within the team images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060327222623/marveldatabase/images/d/d9/Avengers_West_Coast_Vol_1_81.jpg [/img] Here you can see that he's starting to fit in more. images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080409013511/marveldatabase/images/c/cc/Avengers_West_Coast_Vol_1_102.jpg [/img] Never thought I'd see the day that I'd side with US Agent over Captain America but here it was. Cap was a total jerk regarding the breakup of the WCA and completely out of character. [/quote] For me, the last number of AWC signaled the beginning of the end, in terms of the direction Marvel was taking at the time, getting (IMO) worse and worse, until the culmination which was Heroes Reborn. Thankfully, it was such a debacle that it necessitated a reaction in the opposite direction, which brought about their return to true form and greatness with Heroes Return. The whole team of eastern Avengers was out of character during this issue. The AWC was disbanded for hardly any good in-continuity reason, and all because Marvel was cooking up the creation of Force Works. A concept which, if done right, could have worked, I guess, but which its execution was hardly handled any better than Heroes Reborn was. Well, just a little better, to be fair. The pinnacle of Liefield´s awesome awfulness is quite hard to match... . But it was close, nevertheless. The art was especially hard on the eyes. Accept it from one who knows and, no, I´m no Starhawk, but I was dumb enough (I was still a completist back in the day) to actually buy and stick through the whole Force Works run, out of loyalty to Iron Man. Such a waste of money!
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 18, 2013 7:54:57 GMT -5
Speaking of US Agent, he's next on my list. Not a personal favorite of mine but he was intended to rub people the wrong way so I guess he was a successful character. Nice cover - really emphasizes his adversarial position within the team Here you can see that he's starting to fit in more. Never thought I'd see the day that I'd side with US Agent over Captain America but here it was. Cap was a total jerk regarding the breakup of the WCA and completely out of character. For me, the last number of AWC signaled the beginning of the end, in terms of the direction Marvel was taking at the time, getting (IMO) worse and worse, until the culmination which was Heroes Reborn. Thankfully, it was such a debacle that it necessitated a reaction in the opposite direction, which brought about their return to true form and greatness with Heroes Return. The whole team of eastern Avengers was out of character during this issue. The AWC was disbanded for hardly any good in-continuity reason, and all because Marvel was cooking up the creation of Force Works. A concept which, if done right, could have worked, I guess, but which its execution was hardly handled any better than Heroes Reborn was. Well, just a little better, to be fair. The pinnacle of Liefield´s awesome awfulness is quite hard to match... . But it was close, nevertheless. The art was especially hard on the eyes. Accept it from one who knows and, no, I´m no Starhawk, but I was dumb enough (I was still a completist back in the day) to actually buy and stick through the whole Force Works run, out of loyalty to Iron Man. Such a waste of money! *Sigh* No, no-- I stuck with the entire run of Force Works, too, Doc. I think our experiences may have been similar, in that I had an unshakable sense that, underneath the hideous and comically-transient artwork (good lord, how MANY artists were there that were intent on copying Liefeld's "style"??) and the inconsistent characterization of some very long-established characters (particularly Wanda and Tony), there really was a good, solid book trying to happen. It was simply buried faaaaaar too deeply beneath the flaws of the creative teams and corporate Marvel itself. You remember Century? Honestly, I found him kind of interesting, and was looking forward to exploring his backstory and character and everything. He's generally considered an awful joke of a better-forgotten character, though-- I know. Boy, this thread really has the potential to spawn lots of OT mini-threads, doesn't it? 'Cause, as I mentioned earlier, I went down and dug out West Coast Avengers (Heh-- in Box #5, in fact), and have read about the first 6 issues. I'm rediscovering how honestly not-great that book was at the outset-- and yet it does pull you right along. Very much a guilty pleasure, like Tomorrow People or Are You Being Served?, say. The Milgrom/Sinnott art team levels out at adequate-- but SO much of that credit goes to Joltin' Joe really breathing life into poor Al's stiff and often awkward pencils. I wish I was better versed in these things-- but I think Al's primary weakness was that he simply lacked that indefinable knack for portraying a figure that appeared to be in motion. And none of this was helped by Englehart at his most self-indulgent, soap-opera-iest. . . uh, as it were. He had clearly, CLEARLY fallen in love with his own legend at being a master of this type of story-telling, and lost all sense of narrative balance. He also fell into over-writing dialog to the point where all subtlety was sacrificed. On the upside-- the books do have a LOT of story going on, and take awhile to read-! Hoo-boy-- And I'll hold there with this OT-palooza, eh? HB
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Post by bobc on Apr 18, 2013 13:51:05 GMT -5
Do you know there are whole websites devoted to bashing Liefield? My favorite was Rob Liefield Can't Draw Feet--not sure if it's still around.
I never read West Coast Avengers.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 19, 2013 11:19:33 GMT -5
IIRC, Gilgamesh doesn't say a lot even in his source Epic from cuneiform days. But obviously if they cared or had good reason to want this character, they would have found a way to explain how Gilgamesh (and Enkidu, if they'd wanted to do it right) come to be in the MU and their mutual backstory. I just looked through the Wikipedia entry on the Gilgamesh epic, and boy, there's an abundance of gold to be mined there. Honestly, I can't believe Marvel dropped this ball so badly. Clearly, a complex and driven fellow, ruled all-too-often by his passions and rages. And he starts out as pretty much a detestable SOB of a despotic king. Think of him maybe as a rather dark combination of Hercules, King Conan, and the Maestro (old-guy Hulk of the future). Now, how much of ANY of that did we see during his brief time with the Avengers?? I wonder. . . maybe it was just his name? It simply sounds vaguely. . . comic, you know? Like the name of the crotchety tortoise that might live next door in some funny-animal type book. . . HB
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Post by wundagoreborn on Apr 19, 2013 12:43:14 GMT -5
It may have just been a level of effort thing. Why bother to really learn the Babylonian mythos from scratch when you've been getting away with playing fast and loose with what you learned about Greek and Norse gods back in school.
While I understand that in terms of human nature, it was an opportunity lost.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 19, 2013 16:15:51 GMT -5
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 19, 2013 21:06:34 GMT -5
[/img] After all those first appearance floating head and floating body covers, here's a combination of both. www.coverbrowser.com/image/avengers/331-1.jpg [/img] He's background but this is still a nice depiction. www.coverbrowser.com/image/avengers/345-2.jpg [/img] He certainly looks angry. I think Quasar is a very visual character so he could have merited better covers than he had. It may be that he had his own book at the time so his best images were used there.[/quote] Well, while Quaze's book was a hidden, forgotten, delightful gem-- the art wasn't always the best-- particularly after Paul Ryan left very early in the run. But I've waxed on lovingly about his title around here before, I'm pretty sure. Didja notice in the three choices here that he has a different uniform each time? They did have quite a time getting him settled into a solid, identifiable look. LOVED him as an Avenger. In a way, he was one of the most powerful guys on a team including some immensely powerful folks, and yet he was so inherently deferential to Cap, in particular, and respectful to everyone in general. He's the very rare example of a "nice guy" character that managed to remain readable and interesting even w/out deep angst-inducing problems to drive his stories. Even more laudable is the fact that he never devolved into sappiness. Gruenwald created a terrific gem w/ Wendell, and most subsequent writers seemed very respectful of that. Once again-- why are he and Monica Rambeaux not together? Does NO ONE see that match-up besides me?? HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 19, 2013 21:24:31 GMT -5
It may have just been a level of effort thing. Why bother to really learn the Babylonian mythos from scratch when you've been getting away with playing fast and loose with what you learned about Greek and Norse gods back in school. While I understand that in terms of human nature, it was an opportunity lost. I just can't believe how much is there in that Wikipedia synopsis of the extant tablets. He was a far, FAR more interesting, complex, and layered character than uber-popular Hercules ever was in Bulfinch's Mythology. It comes across almost as the synopsis of a big-budget television series, in fact. And, boy, the story's technically (well, literally, in fact) been in the public domain longer than anything else on planet Earth-! (Hmm. . or "Urth" as the Mesopotamians would have put it. . . ). I never thought I would utter these words. . . but I'd kinda like to see him revived and have proper justice done to him as a character. In fact. . . he would be much more along the lines of Namor- hard to pin down as to whether he's a good guy or bad guy. Hmmmmm. But the daggone name. . . HB
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Apr 20, 2013 11:18:32 GMT -5
It may have just been a level of effort thing. Why bother to really learn the Babylonian mythos from scratch when you've been getting away with playing fast and loose with what you learned about Greek and Norse gods back in school. While I understand that in terms of human nature, it was an opportunity lost. I just can't believe how much is there in that Wikipedia synopsis of the extant tablets. He was a far, FAR more interesting, complex, and layered character than uber-popular Hercules ever was in Bulfinch's Mythology. It comes across almost as the synopsis of a big-budget television series, in fact. And, boy, the story's technically (well, literally, in fact) been in the public domain longer than anything else on planet Earth-! (Hmm. . or "Urth" as the Mesopotamians would have put it. . . ). I never thought I would utter these words. . . but I'd kinda like to see him revived and have proper justice done to him as a character. In fact. . . he would be much more along the lines of Namor- hard to pin down as to whether he's a good guy or bad guy. Hmmmmm. But the daggone name. . . HB I think he´s been amongst the living once more since the last Eternals miniseries.
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 20, 2013 23:53:00 GMT -5
I think the original Human Torch was underused as an Avenger. He worked pretty well and was interesting but he soon went away and little has been done with him since. Sidenote: I was recently rereading the old WCA issues and it was revealed that Immortus made a mistake when he used the Torch as part of the original Legion of the Unliving because the Torch wasn't dead. He accidentally pulled Toro instead. That makes perfect sense until you remember that, in that story, the Torch walked around without his flame. He and Toro did indeed look alike while flaming on but not when otherwise. Nice try Byrne. Anyhoo, on to the covers: This cover is an obvious choice and a pretty cool cover to boot. www.rarecomicbooks.fashionablewebs.com/Avengers%20West%20Coast/Avengers%20West%20Coast%2054.jpg [/img] 2 of the covers I considered featured the Torch prominently but from the back or getting his butt kicked. I didn't think they honored the character very well. This one, on the other hand, despite its campiness, makes good use of the obvious Johnny Storm similarity. For the third cover, I decided to back up a bit. I know he wasn't an Avengers yet but even though he's held captive, he does look pretty cool (Uhm, so to speak).
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Post by bobc on Apr 23, 2013 6:30:29 GMT -5
Wow--how did this thread explode so rapidly?
Yeah, The Wasp and Invisible Girl were basically kidnap bait in the 60's--it's kind of funny in hindsight! I recall a letter to Avengers back in the 80's complaining about the Wasp always flitting around but never actually defeating anybody--this fan even complained that her personality had changed for the worse, calling her a "shy, timid imposter." Thankfully John Byrne gave her a sorely needed power up in Marvel Team Up and she became a big asset in the Avengers.
You know I think the whole Masters of Evil/Under Siege storyline is probably my all-time favorite amongst many.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 23, 2013 20:51:17 GMT -5
Wow--how did this thread explode so rapidly? Yeah, The Wasp and Invisible Girl were basically kidnap bait in the 60's--it's kind of funny in hindsight! I recall a letter to Avengers back in the 80's complaining about the Wasp always flitting around but never actually defeating anybody--this fan even complained that her personality had changed for the worse, calling her a "shy, timid imposter." Thankfully John Byrne gave her a sorely needed power up in Marvel Team Up and she became a big asset in the Avengers. You know I think the whole Masters of Evil/Under Siege storyline is probably my all-time favorite amongst many. Ha! Wow, bobc-- I see what you mean, 'cause I remember this topic of conversation, but have no idea which post you're specifically referencing! I . . . I think I may have been a particular contributor on the sub-topic, in fact. (Over the half-century mark, teammates-- it's takin' a steep toll, let me tell ya---- ) HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Apr 23, 2013 22:10:57 GMT -5
Okay, I already know this next character was not liked at all by some members of this board. Personally, I liked her a lot for the first while but not so much toward the end. I am, of course, referring to Sersi. This is an odd cover but I think it captures Sersi's character better than any other. Oddly, Sersi's most interesting covers didn't come until the issues when I didn't like her much I do like the drama of this one
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Post by bobc on Apr 24, 2013 7:32:50 GMT -5
HB--someone posted a bunch of covers that showed the Wasp being held captive on every single one, and then posted some FF covers that showed the same thing with the Invisible Girl.
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 24, 2013 11:17:33 GMT -5
bobc- I actually had to go back and check. . . to then discover that it was indeed myself and then Spi-Wasp. Boy, no wonder it sounded familiar. . . ;D HB
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 24, 2013 11:32:06 GMT -5
Okay, I already know this next character was not liked at all by some members of this board. Personally, I liked her a lot for the first while but not so much toward the end. I am, of course, referring to Sersi. [] This is an odd cover but I think it captures Sersi's character better than any other. Oddly, Sersi's most interesting covers didn't come until the issuewhen I didn't like her much ] I do like the drama of this one She was actually on the team for a number of years, wasn't she? I don't think that fact's ever come home to roost in my mind. She gets a bonus point for being a VERY powerful, strong-minded female character-- but I lose interest in her beyond that point. Her powers were always so hopelessly ill-defined and over-the-top, depending on the circumstances. How, exactly, was she any less powerful than the Molecule Man? Her personality and demeanor were very, very much like the Enchantress in a less-malevolant state of mind, which didn't do much for me, either. The strange and un-ending and uncaptivating multiple love-quadrangles that were going on while she & Crystal were on the team never really caught fire for me, either. You kinda wanted poor Dane to meet up w/ some nice, uncomplicated, straightforward, non-baggage-carrying woman, and get out of soap-operas for good. HB
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Post by starfoxxx on Apr 24, 2013 14:22:41 GMT -5
Yeah, as i've stated many times when the topic concerns the early 90s Avengers---the additions of Sersi and Crystal were amongst the "last straws" for me. (I dropped my 10 year run right before Hercules shaved and Dane swung a lightsaber, which would have REALLY sent me over the edge.) Sersi's powers were SOOOO vague, I often thought she could have been alot more useful, but maybe she chose NOT to use her full power, just to entertain herself. I feel Thor felt he had a duty to protect Midgard and humanity---but Sersi (and Starfox, for that matter) were just kind of "hanging out" with lowly humans and mutants, for adventure.
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Post by sharkar on Apr 24, 2013 17:46:15 GMT -5
Sersi's one of my favorite characters, at least from a visual standpoint. I love her signature look: the blue-black hair, the green costume. I'm not crazy about her black and red costume (nor do I like Crystal's similar black and white costume--and the less said about those bomber jackets the better!), but I agree #373 and #374 are a couple of pretty impressive, dramatic Sersi covers. My favorite Sersi cover is #345. I know it was recently posted for Quasar, but I love it so here it is again, for everyone's viewing pleasure ;D:
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Post by humanbelly on Apr 24, 2013 18:02:05 GMT -5
Sersi's powers were SOOOO vague, I often thought she could have been alot more useful, but maybe she chose NOT to use her full power, just to entertain herself. I feel Thor felt he had a duty to protect Midgard and humanity---but Sersi (and Starfox, for that matter) were just kind of "hanging out" with lowly humans and mutants, for adventure. That's a pretty good point, SF. There's an inherent, albeit unconscious & unintended, arrogance that comes into play with those two. Not even a character flaw, really. You could think of it as a couple of first-tier NBA players spending all of their time back at their high school, playing along with the kids at that level. Or gosh, was it young US swimmer Missy Franklin that rolled through these past Olympics, and then came back and swam with her high school team again this season? (Not a shred of vanity or superior attitude in that delightful young woman, though, I should add.) Starfox & Sersi & actually Herc, early on, do stand out as beings who don't seem to have any higher calling to be on the team beyond doing it for the grins, as it were. One of Van's Assembled volumes had that chapter about "Why Such & Such is an Avenger"-- and it would be very enlightening to hear that question posed to those particular characters. It's now become an unfortunate cliche' (albeit done very well as a parody in FOX's old TICK cartoon), but it would be nice to have a GOOD writer (*ahem*- disqualifying a certain individual) sit down and perhaps write a series of "exit interviews" with a lot of these secondary members. Boy, it would have to be someone like Busiek, though, that has a nice facility for capturing everyone's voices. HB
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