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Post by Marvel Boy on Jul 7, 2013 21:22:10 GMT -5
Come to think of it, Stan Lee's writing style was often like that - "If we'd been half a second later, it would have been too late." "Oh no, you musn't. You simply musn't!" "If I only I could muster the courage to say what I really feel..." lol! Spot-on! That last line about mustering courage, myriad versions of that line make up probably half of both Matt Murdock's and Karen Page's thoughts in at least the first 10 issues of DD. Hilarious! First time I've seen the cover for #25, very striking image. Love Wanda's look and colors here. I don't know what Cap is doing. Is he trying to protect Hawkeye or warning the others to stay back or trying to balance himself to throw his shield or waiting for Doom to attack or signaling Pietro to rescue civilians or is he wondering who is a Skrull and who isn't or is he thinking "I should only be fighting the Red Skull" or wondering where Thor and Iron Man are when you really need them or...........
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Post by sharkar on Jul 8, 2013 17:44:26 GMT -5
Come to think of it, Stan Lee's writing style was often like that - "...If I only I could muster the courage to say what I really feel..." lol! Spot-on! That last line about mustering courage, myriad versions of that line make up probably half of both Matt Murdock's and Karen Page's thoughts in at least the first 10 issues of DD. Hilarious! ;DOr Scott and Jean's thoughts in the first 20 or 30 issues of the X-Men... Shar, AWESOME job of catching that image recycle-! Thanks, guys--I noticed it about 5 or 6 years ago when I finally bought this Annual (when I was getting back into comics). And Bong, you'll be pleased to know that everyone in Annual #1--hero and villain alike--respects and/or fears the Mandarin! I think it would have been interesting if #25's cover had been used in homaged form for one of the Children's Crusade covers (sort of like Avengers Academy #7's cover homage to Avengers #63, v.1).
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 8, 2013 18:22:14 GMT -5
Okay, time to break out the big guns when it comes to Avengers villains: Kang the Conqueror. This is a pretty sharp cover So is this one. I always liked this one and the issue was good too. I hated the whole concept of the silent month but I think Busiek and Perez pulled it off more effectively than most of the books.
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 8, 2013 19:52:29 GMT -5
I always liked this one and the issue was good too. I hated the whole concept of the silent month but I think Busiek and Perez pulled it off more effectively than most of the books. Wasn't Perez off the book by then? The Kang Dinasty is one of my favourite stories ever, but I remember it suffered from inconsistent art.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 8, 2013 22:08:56 GMT -5
Wasn't Perez off the book by then? The Kang Dinasty is one of my favourite stories ever, but I remember it suffered from inconsistent art. Oops. You're totally right and if I had simply looked at the credits on the cover I posted, I would have realized that. I guess that when I think of Busiek's awesome run, I automatically think of Perez. For me they go together like peas and carrots, as a certain Gump would say.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 9, 2013 9:56:50 GMT -5
My favorite Kang cover is this classic from Kirby and Romita Sr.:
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 9, 2013 10:12:10 GMT -5
My favorite Kang cover is this classic from Kirby and Romita Sr.: I almost posted that one too. Isn't funny how Kang is almost always oversized on covers even though he's a regular sized human? He was on all the ones I chose.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jul 9, 2013 11:18:46 GMT -5
More often than not, whenever I think of Kang nowadays, I first think of Avengers Forever. You gotta love the fight with himself on #3. ;D Kang is one of my favorite Avengers villains, but sooner or later, his continued exploits will give me headaches due to all the timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly stuff.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 9, 2013 21:48:23 GMT -5
Tonight - The Living Laser. Not one of the top villains but his had made several appearances. Didn't care much for his costume, but the cover layout was pretty good. Not a terribly impressive cover to me but better than most of his other covers which are just basically his head. This cover makes him look better than his solo appearances
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 10, 2013 8:38:40 GMT -5
One of the very first Avengers back issues I bought had the Living Laser in it, so I'm somewhat partial to him.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 10, 2013 10:58:16 GMT -5
My favorite Kang cover is this classic from Kirby and Romita Sr.: I almost posted that one too. Isn't funny how Kang is almost always oversized on covers even though he's a regular sized human? He was on all the ones I chose. I'm on board w/ Shar for this cover. For me, it's the Kang cover against which all others have to be measured. Even given that, though, it still has those characteristic over-the-top poses for our heroes, eh? Cap is going to sprain his entire torso if he tries to hurl his shield (as a lefty!) from that unbelievably awkward and unnatural position. . .! And, ha, good thing Wanda's there to point out just exactly where Giant-Kang is, so's Cap can get a good bead on 'im. . . ;D ;D ;D Avengers Forever #1 would be my next favorite choice-- very much captures the sense of burden that even a horrible, despotic tyrant surely experiences. Kang is about as hands-on a manager/leader as one can find-- not one to languish in the frilly spoils of his conquest so much. As I've mentioned before, I truly chaffe at the tendency to show characters like Kang and Doom as having an "inner nobility" or mitigating sense of "honor" or some such-- as it masks the fact that they are dispicable human beings who have committed unspeakably evil acts that cannot ever be forgiven or forgotten. HB
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jul 11, 2013 0:20:35 GMT -5
As I've mentioned before, I truly chaffe at the tendency to show characters like Kang and Doom as having an "inner nobility" or mitigating sense of "honor" or some such-- as it masks the fact that they are dispicable human beings who have committed unspeakably evil acts that cannot ever be forgiven or forgotten. HB Ah, but therein lies the rub. They do not believe their actions are evil, that their actions or goals are necessary or justified by whatever motivations they have, and thus in striving to achieve their twisted goals, they may seem within themselves an inherent nobility or wisdom or having honor where others do not for they see the correctness and righteousness of their goals. It's not that these qualities are put upon them without, but derived by them from within. That's one of the aspects I like about Kang, his fierce desire and determination, his will to conquer. It adds an extra layer of characterization beyond the basic 'super-villain' trope. For Doom, this is highlighted by Byrne in FF #247 when the team is shocked to learn that the people of Latveria want Doom back as their leader. The rest of the world may see him as a would-be dictator but the prosperity and peace he brought to Latveria (by means we may not approve of) was a trade-off the people were willing to accept. As another example, X-Men Unlimited #2 offers one of the best examinations of Magneto's motivations. Why, after so many failures and losses that would break other men, does Magneto continue to strive for his ideals? Why do other mutants such as his Acolytes and the Brotherhood continue to be drawn to him and those goals? Because of the strength of his beliefs, the sheer power of his will, and his own inherent self-righteousness of his cause. We may not like their goals nor their methods but from their point-of-view, they are doing the right thing. And that makes for better stories.
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 11, 2013 6:38:11 GMT -5
Quite true, Marvel Boy. I doubt anyone truly thinks he is evil. Even Hitler probably thought he was doing the right thing. Now, Latverians wanting Doom back as dictator may be laying it on a bit thick, but it did make for an interesting topic of discussion. After all, in Plato's Republic, the ideal system of government is rule by a wise King, rather than a democracy. I'm not saying Doom is that guy, but it does make for an interesting talking point.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 11, 2013 22:16:25 GMT -5
Attuma has never been one of my favorite villains but here he is anyway. I always think the name is funny too. I picture someone asking Arnold Schwarzenneger if that's Attuma and he says "No, it's not Attuma" (Think Kindergarten Cop if you don't get it) I've always liked this cover but more because it marked the return of the Wasp (Even if she is 100% victim mode) than because of Attuma. It's an okay cover for him though. This cover is better. The story is okay but not that great to me. Another decent cover
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 14, 2013 9:28:50 GMT -5
Quite true, Marvel Boy. I doubt anyone truly thinks he is evil. Even Hitler probably thought he was doing the right thing. Now, Latverians wanting Doom back as dictator may be laying it on a bit thick, but it did make for an interesting topic of discussion. After all, in Plato's Republic, the ideal system of government is rule by a wise King, rather than a democracy. I'm not saying Doom is that guy, but it does make for an interesting talking point. Oh yeah, yeah-- I do totally get that, Ult & Marvel Boy. I've often made the very same point myself. (As a side note & tangential example, I once played a fairly complex antagonist in a musical several years ago. I never saw him as a villain at all-- simply a man who had a very carefully-balanced, difficult situation on his hands, and was quite sure that his plan for everyone was certainly in their best interest. Never played him w/ an ounce of malice at all-- although he was at times frustrated and impatient. The director, however, kept insisting that I was playing him as a "villain", and wanted to know why I wouldn't listen to his direction, and ease back. So clearly, "villain" can well be perceived even when "villain" isn't being broadcast. But that's a wholly different point, I imagine.) I guess my problem is that I feel there should be a line between interesting/attractive and sympathetic for characters like this for the most part, and that writers over the years have tended to fall a bit too much in love w/ the "inner" Kang or Doom or Kingpin or Magneto and occasionally indulge in a mindset of well-they're-not-all-bad-after-all. And for me personally that simply does not fly. A member of my family had the unfortunate experience to fall into the orbit of an emotional sociopath for many years, and other than the difference in scale, the similarities in personality and mindset are absolutely chilling. Incredibly attractive, personable, charismatic individual who has an unshakable-- FUNDAMENTALLY unshakable-- belief in their own pre-eminence over absolutely anyone else's needs or desires, and a cognitive inability to manifest (or even understand) an empathetic response. . . although they can mimic one to serve an end. Writ large, you get a Hitler or Stalin or Sadam Hussein. Writ as a super villain, you get a Kang or a Doom or a Kingpin or a Silver-Age Magneto. But at its core, that personality is irretrievably and dangerously broken (possibly at a congenital level), and is insidious and deadly as it is outwardly attractive. One film that explored this quite effectively was Hitchcock's "FRENZY", where the psychopathic killer was far and away more charming and charismatic than the protagonist, and Hitchcock consciously got us to root for him during a long sequence in which he's desperate to retrieve a stray piece of evidence after the central murder sequence. HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 14, 2013 23:46:24 GMT -5
I certainly won't say that Thane Ector is one of my favorite Avengers villains of all time but he wasn't that bad. The storyline did prove rather interesting. He certainly came across as formidable on this cover. Poor Pietro The character only had the one storyline so it's not too difficult to decide which covers to use. He's not front and center here but it's not a bad cover. Actually all of his covers were pretty decent.
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 15, 2013 9:20:26 GMT -5
I actually did like this story. Thane Ector is a reasonably cool looking character. These covers are OK, though nothing special. I thought it was a pretty good story overall, though there were some illogicalities, such as why didn't the Collecter even try to stop Sersi, Thane, & the fool? I know Quasar was protecting them, but the Collector seemed very powerful, and all he did was shout "no". Also, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me why the Collector wanted to destroy most of the humans so that he could keep the few survivors. If that's his attitude, why doesn't he do that with every species he collects? Also, some cliched dialogue, such as the Watcher telling the Collector "as you said, I can only watch" but still kinda cool.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 15, 2013 22:54:57 GMT -5
There aren't really a lot of female villains but for me, the first is the best - the Enchantress. Unfortunately, even though I like the character, her covers are not very good. I would guess that's because her appearances were almost entirely in the early years and Marvel probably didn't think a female villain would sell the books that well so they usually put her in the background. Sadly, I think this is her best image. I say it's sad because she was supposed to be this beautiful woman with great power. Great covers were just waiting to happen. This one's not bad but it certainly won't win any prizes. I like this cover a lot and she is the only villain on it. However, you barely even notice her back there. Okay, this one's not bad either. I'm considering this a bonus cover. I can't possibly call it one of her best because it was so bad but it hardly seems like I can ignore it either. I think this was actually the largest image she had on a cover but boy is it a goofy cover. The body positions make those we talked about on the Doom cover look sensible. What in the world is Zemo doing? What is anyone doing for that matter? What is even happening on this cover? I don't understand. Okay, bonus #2. This is actually the best Enchantress cover ever BUT I didn't count in my 3 because it doesn't appear to be her. It appears to be a Valkyrie cover but, of course, it turns out that Val is really the Enchantress.
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 16, 2013 6:45:18 GMT -5
The Enchantress, hubba hubba!
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 16, 2013 17:39:16 GMT -5
There aren't really a lot of female villains but for me, the first is the best - the Enchantress. Unfortunately, even though I like the character, her covers are not very good. I would guess that's because her appearances were almost entirely in the early years and Marvel probably didn't think a female villain would sell the books that well so they usually put her in the background. I like this cover a lot and she is the only villain on it. However, you barely even notice her back there. This is going to completely undermine my Honorary Jarvis-Head Cred. . . but I have NEVER noticed that Enchantress was on this cover until you pointed it out (!!!). Holy Post Toasties! And there she is, controlling Herc. But y'know what else that made me notice? I'm pretty sure that on three of these covers, she's involved turning Avenger against Avenger through some use of her enchantments. Man, that is one over-used convention-! Well, what on earth are they all doing with their hands?? It's like they're all throwing the same gang-signs, or something. . . Boy, once you notice it, it's impossible to NOT be fixated on that odd, inexplicable quirk in the art. Jack, Jack-- what was goin' on here, ol' great departed one? And yeah, issue #7, and Avenger vs. Avenger is STILL the go-to device. Yikes. Although not a regular Thor-follower, I kind of liked how Amora (the Enchantress) was used over the years. Her hopeless crush on Thor (and oft-broken heart because of it) did give her a humanity, oddly enough, that I always found lacking in a lot of Asgardians. The relationship w/ the Executioner also had a heck of a lot going for it, especially later on in the Simonson years when he was killed. . . for awhile. She stayed just this side of irredeemably evil until the Deadato years in the. . . 90's?. . . when she took to keeping mind-controlled humans as servants and love-slaves, and then had them kill themselves when she grew bored with them. Yeesh-- has she ever been called to task for that, do we suppose? HB
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Post by Shiryu on Jul 16, 2013 18:39:04 GMT -5
When written right, I've always liked the Enchantress. She reminds me of those smitten people who always see the one they love fall for anyone else except them, but who at the same time are a bit too afraid of rejection to take a direct approach and try to win fair and square. But then she is also the type of person caring only about her own feelings, as proved by the many times she seduces and manipulates someone else for her own ends. Not an uncommon trait in very pretty girls, actually.
There have been a few stories dealing with her insecurities, especially a Secret Wars tie-in where she muses on what would have happened had she helped Thor against Doom and his army on Battleword. Her desperation at the Executioner's death in Simonson run was also quite touching.
In fact, thinking about it, she is probably my favourite Thor's love interest. I've never been a huge fan of Jane Foster or Sif. Funnily enough, the one time Enchantress did marry Thor, in the Jurgens run, she proved to be a loyal and loving wife, all things considered.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 16, 2013 23:26:43 GMT -5
My first thought was that my Executioner cover choices would mirror my Enchantress ones but it turns out not to be true. Not a great cover for any of the villains but I like it overall. In addition to showing the Executioner, these covers help to illustrate my observation about how the Enchantress was always in the background. Of course, the Executioner fared just as badly but in Marvel's defense, he wasn't a particularly interesting character. Okay, it's just his face but it's still better than using that awful #7 cover.
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 17, 2013 12:04:15 GMT -5
I think I've mentioned this here before, but King-Size Special #1 was my first Avengers back issue, and so always has a special place in my heart. Not to mention, it's a pretty cool cover, even thoug I don't really know why the Avengers are all breaking through that brick wall, and with smiles on their faces no less.
I agree with HB about the Enchantress. I liked the crush on Thor thing, which made her more relatable and also sort of makes her an immportal version of Thundra, I suppose, with Thundra's non-stop crush on Ben Grimm. The Executioner is OK, though I mostly think of him as the Enchantress's boy toy.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 17, 2013 18:36:53 GMT -5
For me, it's the Kang cover against which all others have to be measured. Even given that, though, it still has those characteristic over-the-top poses for our heroes, eh? The Comics Code actually considered Kang's depiction to be "too over-the-top"; apparently Kang's hand--the one over Pietro and Clint--was considered too menacing and scary (as related in Alter Ego #9). So #23's cover was redrawn slightly. The original cover art for #23 may seen on the cover of volume #3 of the Avengers Masterworks. Cap is going to sprain his entire torso if he tries to hurl his shield (as a lefty!) from that unbelievably awkward and unnatural position. . .! And, ha, good thing Wanda's there to point out just exactly where Giant-Kang is, so's Cap can get a good bead on 'im. . . ;D ;D ;D "Lefty..." "Giant-Kang..." LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! Okay, I'm going to be charitable here ;)and assume that Wanda's pointing on #23's cover means she's invoking her hex power. Back in the good old days--well, before the two hands together/hex sphere jazz (which, as we all know was introduced in ever-lovin' Hulk #128)--Kirby usually drew her (in the X-Men series for example) pointing a finger or two and then "something" would happen.
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Post by sharkar on Jul 17, 2013 18:51:16 GMT -5
I think this was actually the largest image she had on a cover but boy is it a goofy cover. The body positions make those we talked about on the Doom cover look sensible. What in the world is Zemo doing? What is anyone doing for that matter? What is even happening on this cover? I don't understand. Well, what on earth are they all doing with their hands?? It's like they're all throwing the same gang-signs, or something. . . LOLOLOLOL again--well, at least the Enchantress looks like she's on the offensive--she's casting a spell. The Executioner and Zemo just seem to be discombobulated and/or cowering in abject fear. And someone at Marvel must have liked her cover appearance on #7 --as I'm sure many here already know, this was the picture used for her Marvel Value Stamp.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jul 20, 2013 1:36:38 GMT -5
Nebula is a character that I sometimes liked and sometimes didn't. Basically, I just don't think she was consistently written so it was always hard to really get a grasp on who she was. Although it may not be obvious at a glance, Druid's companion here is Nebula. At least a version of her. When she next appeared, it was revealed that it was some alternate version of her but I never did fully understand what that was all about. This is definitely one of her best Another of those covers with the oversized villain. It does make her look impressive though.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jul 21, 2013 10:52:53 GMT -5
I like this cover a lot and she is the only villain on it. However, you barely even notice her back there. I'm considering this a bonus cover. I can't possibly call it one of her best because it was so bad but it hardly seems like I can ignore it either. I think this was actually the largest image she had on a cover but boy is it a goofy cover. The body positions make those we talked about on the Doom cover look sensible. What in the world is Zemo doing? What is anyone doing for that matter? What is even happening on this cover? I don't understand. Hey, don't feel bad HB, if this wasn't focusing on the Enchantress, I'd miss her completely too on #38. As for #7, so many things hilariously wrong with this picture, but who is that standing behind Cap?? I can't even tell by squinting.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jul 21, 2013 10:58:28 GMT -5
Absolutely my favorite Executioner cover. The idea of the Executioner using modern machine guns to hold off an army of the dead in a last -ditch effort to guard Thor's return to the living world, an action that cost him his life, may sound silly but under Simonson, he made it into a poignant story. The Enchantress' reactions were heartfelt and moving. Great characterization all around.
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Post by humanbelly on Jul 21, 2013 11:37:49 GMT -5
I like this cover a lot and she is the only villain on it. However, you barely even notice her back there. I'm considering this a bonus cover. I can't possibly call it one of her best because it was so bad but it hardly seems like I can ignore it either. I think this was actually the largest image she had on a cover but boy is it a goofy cover. The body positions make those we talked about on the Doom cover look sensible. What in the world is Zemo doing? What is anyone doing for that matter? What is even happening on this cover? I don't understand. Hey, don't feel bad HB, if this wasn't focusing on the Enchantress, I'd miss her completely too on #38. As for #7, so many things hilariously wrong with this picture, but who is that standing behind Cap?? I can't even tell by squinting. I think. . . I think it might be. . . Rick Jones? That was still in the "Why CAN'T I be an Avenger, Cap? Daggone it, it's NOT FAIR!" phase of Rick's career. As Sharkar once so succinctly put it: "Because you have no superpowers, you idiot-!" (I may be paraphrasing a bit. . .my apologies, Shar!). Rick was still a steady presence on & around the team, and IIRC he and his Teen Brigade were really the only reason Kang was initially defeated (or was it Immortus. . . or perhaps Count Nefaria. . . ?). His cover appearances, though, almost seem to occur grudgingly, and this could well be one of the few he had. . . HB
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Post by ultron69 on Jul 22, 2013 9:53:11 GMT -5
I liked Nebula in the Roger Stern, Monica Rambeau in another galaxy story, and I thought she was pretty good in the story from around 1990 where Spider-Man joined the Avengers for about 5 minutes but yeah, she has kinda been all over the place as a character, hasn't she?
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