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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 12, 2013 0:09:13 GMT -5
Bomber jackets...noooooo! Aside from simply not liking them, it reminds me of the awful non-costumes in the "Five Years Later" Kieth Giffen Legion of Super-Heroes, not one of my favorite runs in that venerable group. Recently, I read a very interesting essay that suggests that the 5 Year Later run on LSH displays just how experimental and daring Giffen was on that run, using concepts that have gotten universal acceptance since. From his de-constructionist take on the utopian future and the team to pushing the limits of the nine-grid panel layout used by Gibbons to such stunning effect in Watchmen to playing with conventional tropes with the introduction of the Legionnaire clones and not clarifying which group was the original and thus subverting readers' expectations with every Legionnaire's death later on (was that the real Legionnaire or the clone?!) It was just so different for it's time, no one really knew what to make of it. (Sorry, don't mean to turn this into a Legion thread, just wanted to throw that out there since I had just read that article)
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 12, 2013 0:13:55 GMT -5
Scott Lang is indeed back, although at a great price, since it took the sacrifice of his daughter Cassie to make his return permanent. He is currently starring as the leader of the Future Fundation in FF, while the Fantastic Four are out in space, and is struggling to come to terms with parenting (or rather, being the guardian of) the young kids of the FF. IIRC, his return and the death of Cassie (who was the Young Avenger Stature by that time) took place in Avengers: Children's Crusade, the story that also reintroduced the Scarlet Witch to the Marvel universe after her long absence following Disassembled. My initial knee-jerk reaction to that is, that's rubbish. Being a parent was an interesting sub-text to Lang's character. Really can't think of that many Marvel heroes who are parents and now we are one less. I've never read that much of Cassie except for her appearances in Slott's Mighty Avengers. I thought she had fire and passion so I hate to hear that she's dead. But instead of going with my first reaction, I was planning on reading Children's Crusade at some point.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 12, 2013 6:55:20 GMT -5
Bomber jackets...noooooo! Aside from simply not liking them, it reminds me of the awful non-costumes in the "Five Years Later" Kieth Giffen Legion of Super-Heroes, not one of my favorite runs in that venerable group. Recently, I read a very interesting essay that suggests that the 5 Year Later run on LSH displays just how experimental and daring Giffen was on that run, using concepts that have gotten universal acceptance since. From his de-constructionist take on the utopian future and the team to pushing the limits of the nine-grid panel layout used by Gibbons to such stunning effect in Watchmen to playing with conventional tropes with the introduction of the Legionnaire clones and not clarifying which group was the original and thus subverting readers' expectations with every Legionnaire's death later on (was that the real Legionnaire or the clone?!) It was just so different for it's time, no one really knew what to make of it. (Sorry, don't mean to turn this into a Legion thread, just wanted to throw that out there since I had just read that article) My big problems with Giffen's run were: We already have enough bleak, dystopian future. In all of sci-fi, I can only think of two optimistic futures: Star Trek and the Legion of Super-Heroes. Giffen took one of those away from us. His illustrations, regardless of the innovative layouts, were simply awful. Setting aside the fact that I hated his non-costumes, everybody had the same wide features. Every character looked related to each other. The non-costumes and sameness of everyone's faces also made it hard to tell the characters from each other at times. Giffen's work on the Legion in the 70's was great, but this late 80's stuff was very hard on the eyes. There were some good stories in there, and some nice humor, but this was definitely not my favorite Legion. My apologies too for all the Legion babble here.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 12, 2013 6:56:51 GMT -5
Scott Lang is indeed back, although at a great price, since it took the sacrifice of his daughter Cassie to make his return permanent. He is currently starring as the leader of the Future Fundation in FF, while the Fantastic Four are out in space, and is struggling to come to terms with parenting (or rather, being the guardian of) the young kids of the FF. IIRC, his return and the death of Cassie (who was the Young Avenger Stature by that time) took place in Avengers: Children's Crusade, the story that also reintroduced the Scarlet Witch to the Marvel universe after her long absence following Disassembled. My initial knee-jerk reaction to that is, that's rubbish. Being a parent was an interesting sub-text to Lang's character. Really can't think of that many Marvel heroes who are parents and now we are one less. I agree. That was one of the things that interested me about Scott, and set him apart from all the other heroes.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 12, 2013 7:41:10 GMT -5
The fact that this book even exists is beyond my ability to address fully. The human character-- the person-- is considered expendable, whereas the flippin' costume must be preserved and sustained for further appearances. BuckyCap set a precedent that seemed to deliver the wrong lesson to the folks in charge. . . HB This has been true for quite some time, to my dismay. Silly me, I'm a fan of Peter Parker - not just Spider-man, Matt Murdock - not just Daredevil, Steve Rogers - not just Captain America, and so forth. The person inside the costume is what makes for an interesting character to me, not the powers. Some changes work okay, like Clint Barton becoming Goliath for a while or Scott Lang as Antman but the ones that work are far fewer than the ones that leave me high and dry. And Clint as Goliath totally reinforces your point, in fact. We were able to hang onto that much-beloved character, PLUS we didn't have to lose the initial identity's character (Hank Pym) in the process-- he was still around. And then, hmm, Hank was still around and quite viable when Scott came in to become Ant-Man. The obvious common denominator is that maintaining the on-going life of the character is what (used to) keep folks coming back-- and both Marvel & DC somehow lost track of that over the years, for whatever reason. Remember how hard they tried to make Ben Reilly-as-Spiderman work? Bless the creative teams' hearts, that really was an earnest, good-faith effort to try to please everyone, but just ultimately doomed to fail. It wasn't Pete. I think Wally-as-Flash was relatively successful. . . but partly because Barry's shadow remained a HUGE driving force in that book for a very long time. He was still practically a character, albeit an unseen one. BuckyCap was something I couldn't bring myself to even pick up one issue of-- and once Steve came back, still pretty much totally himself, just w/out the costume, the handwriting was on the wall for the former Winter Soldier as well. . . HB
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Jun 12, 2013 8:38:33 GMT -5
I think the reviled, somewhat-forgotten Chuck Austen really was a worse writer (always IMO, mind you) than BMB. I imagine Lionheart was going to be his "pet character", and man, I totally agree that right in the midst of that chaotic, ugly, badly-written, out-of-character "Lionheart of Avalon" arc there appeared one of the most moving origin stories I think I've ever read. Which then got somewhat diminished in the aftermath by absurd, poorly thought out, contrived "limitations" on how Kelsey could live her life. Particularly stupid- and impossible to justify or even control- was the mandate that if she ever revealed her true identity to her children (who were ruinously traumatized by her apparent death), those children would die. That just reeks of the worst of Golden & Silver Age arbitrarily-imposed constraints, so as to add conflict to the character's existence. But still, a solid bit of potential there for a better writer to flesh her out and continue her life as an Avenger. I'm just relieved that she did go on to have a complicated life over in the Captain Britain realm, and eventually got those dumber aspects of her existence resolved. Hmm. And there we had a second Avenger with kids. Here's a team I would have enjoyed seeing explored: Jack of Hearts Scott Lang Ant-Man Lionheart She-Hulk Iron Man Wasp (as leader?) and possibly the Vision. Wow, and there couldn't help but be a romance develop between Scott & Kelsey. Geeze, I would have LOVED that. Heh- a little bit of a Brady Bunch dynamic in play, even. . . HB (PS-- gosh, SW, I just realized that I flamed-out all over an element that you particularly liked. . . no offense intended, believe me! Please feel free to chastise me in return for being the one guy who still staunchly defends the bomber jackets, eh? ) First, let me say that I absolutely respect all opinions contrary to mine regarding the subject. STILL, having clarified that... :you´re not alone, HB. I´m an unapologetic defender of that era as well. So much so that I consider it my 3rd favorite Avengers lineup. First one being the one which started in A Vol. III # 4 and 2nd one the Kree-Skrull War lineup. This came to my surprise at the time, since when I first met this particular iteration of EMH I thought no chance in hell I was gonna like a lineup without any of the Big Three and 2 of the 3 characters I consider the core of the team: Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision. Crystal´s one of my all-time favorite assemblers, even while I agree that her powers have never been properly defined, but then again the same could be said of many other of her teammates... . I posit than when a lot of people think about the Avengers at the time as grim and gritty they´re confusing the ART (which certainly was full of posturing, scowling and teeth-grinding, with the WRITING. While quite a bit of the ongoing saga was charged with drama, melodrama, angst, dire omens and dark undertones it is nevertheless true that at the same time there were quite a few light hearted and humorous episodes mingling with those other elements. And the humor more often than not stemmed from the team members and secondaries´ characterization. I for one particularly loved Jarvis and Marilla´s interactions. It was interesting to see the butler reacting to the changing dynamics at the mansion due to the introduction of the inhuman nanny. I really HATED when she was killed during that utter piece of garbage called "The Crossing". I honestly think that, for all it´s soap opera melodrama (and lets remember that this wasn´t an element absent from previous creative efforts within the MU -Stan the Man, I´m looking at you...-) and schmaltz, this era probably boasted the deepest levels of characterization layering and explorations of members of the team interactions in Avengers´ history, before or since. All I can say, IMO, is that these characters actually felt like a bunch of people working and interacting together. A rather normal group of individuals, really, once we got past their superpowers.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Jun 12, 2013 9:02:51 GMT -5
I think the reviled, somewhat-forgotten Chuck Austen really was a worse writer (always IMO, mind you) than BMB. I imagine Lionheart was going to be his "pet character", and man, I totally agree that right in the midst of that chaotic, ugly, badly-written, out-of-character "Lionheart of Avalon" arc there appeared one of the most moving origin stories I think I've ever read. Which then got somewhat diminished in the aftermath by absurd, poorly thought out, contrived "limitations" on how Kelsey could live her life. Particularly stupid- and impossible to justify or even control- was the mandate that if she ever revealed her true identity to her children (who were ruinously traumatized by her apparent death), those children would die. That just reeks of the worst of Golden & Silver Age arbitrarily-imposed constraints, so as to add conflict to the character's existence. But still, a solid bit of potential there for a better writer to flesh her out and continue her life as an Avenger. I'm just relieved that she did go on to have a complicated life over in the Captain Britain realm, and eventually got those dumber aspects of her existence resolved. Hmm. And there we had a second Avenger with kids. Here's a team I would have enjoyed seeing explored: Jack of Hearts Scott Lang Ant-Man Lionheart She-Hulk Iron Man Wasp (as leader?) and possibly the Vision. Wow, and there couldn't help but be a romance develop between Scott & Kelsey. Geeze, I would have LOVED that. Heh- a little bit of a Brady Bunch dynamic in play, even. . . HB (PS-- gosh, SW, I just realized that I flamed-out all over an element that you particularly liked. . . no offense intended, believe me! Please feel free to chastise me in return for being the one guy who still staunchly defends the bomber jackets, eh? ) First, let me say that I absolutely respect all opinions contrary to mine regarding the subject. STILL, having clarified that... :you´re not alone, HB. I´m an unapologetic defender of that era as well. So much so that I consider it my 3rd favorite Avengers lineup. First one being the one which started in A Vol. III # 4 and 2nd one the Kree-Skrull War lineup. This came to my surprise at the time, since when I first met this particular iteration of EMH I thought no chance in hell I was gonna like a lineup without any of the Big Three and 2 of the 3 characters I consider the core of the team: Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision. Crystal´s one of my all-time favorite assemblers, even while I agree that her powers have never been properly defined, but then again the same could be said of many other of her teammates... . I posit than when a lot of people think about the Avengers at the time as grim and gritty they´re confusing the ART (which certainly was full of posturing, scowling and teeth-grinding, with the WRITING. While quite a bit of the ongoing saga was charged with drama, melodrama, angst, dire omens and dark undertones it is nevertheless true that at the same time there were quite a few light hearted and humorous episodes mingling with those other elements. And the humor more often than not stemmed from the team members and secondaries´ characterization. I for one particularly loved Jarvis and Marilla´s interactions. It was interesting to see the butler reacting to the changing dynamics at the mansion due to the introduction of the inhuman nanny. I really HATED when she was killed during that utter piece of garbage called "The Crossing". I honestly think that, for all it´s soap opera melodrama (and lets remember that this wasn´t an element absent from previous creative efforts within the MU -Stan the Man, I´m looking at you...-) and schmaltz, this era probably boasted the deepest levels of characterization layering and explorations of members of the team interactions in Avengers´ history, before or since. Arguably this was achieved in no small part due to the fact that none of them regularly appeared in any other comic and therefore it was relatively easy for Harras to keep them consistent. All I can say, IMO, is that these characters actually felt like a bunch of people working and interacting together. A rather normal group of individuals, really, once we got past their superpowers.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Jun 12, 2013 9:07:30 GMT -5
I think the reviled, somewhat-forgotten Chuck Austen really was a worse writer (always IMO, mind you) than BMB. I imagine Lionheart was going to be his "pet character", and man, I totally agree that right in the midst of that chaotic, ugly, badly-written, out-of-character "Lionheart of Avalon" arc there appeared one of the most moving origin stories I think I've ever read. Which then got somewhat diminished in the aftermath by absurd, poorly thought out, contrived "limitations" on how Kelsey could live her life. Particularly stupid- and impossible to justify or even control- was the mandate that if she ever revealed her true identity to her children (who were ruinously traumatized by her apparent death), those children would die. That just reeks of the worst of Golden & Silver Age arbitrarily-imposed constraints, so as to add conflict to the character's existence. But still, a solid bit of potential there for a better writer to flesh her out and continue her life as an Avenger. I'm just relieved that she did go on to have a complicated life over in the Captain Britain realm, and eventually got those dumber aspects of her existence resolved. Hmm. And there we had a second Avenger with kids. Here's a team I would have enjoyed seeing explored: Jack of Hearts Scott Lang Ant-Man Lionheart She-Hulk Iron Man Wasp (as leader?) and possibly the Vision. Wow, and there couldn't help but be a romance develop between Scott & Kelsey. Geeze, I would have LOVED that. Heh- a little bit of a Brady Bunch dynamic in play, even. . . HB (PS-- gosh, SW, I just realized that I flamed-out all over an element that you particularly liked. . . no offense intended, believe me! Please feel free to chastise me in return for being the one guy who still staunchly defends the bomber jackets, eh? ) First, let me say that I absolutely respect all opinions contrary to mine regarding the subject. STILL, having clarified that... :you´re not alone, HB. I´m an unapologetic defender of that era as well. So much so that I consider it my 3rd favorite Avengers lineup. First one being the one which started in A Vol. III # 4 and 2nd one the Kree-Skrull War lineup. This came to my surprise at the time, since when I first met this particular iteration of EMH I thought no chance in hell I was gonna like a lineup without any of the Big Three and 2 of the 3 characters I consider the core of the team: Hawkeye, the Scarlet Witch and the Vision. Crystal´s one of my all-time favorite assemblers, even while I agree that her powers have never been properly defined, but then again the same could be said of many other of her teammates... . I posit than when a lot of people think about the Avengers at the time as grim and gritty they´re confusing the ART (which certainly was full of posturing, scowling and teeth-grinding, with the WRITING. While quite a bit of the ongoing saga was charged with drama, melodrama, angst, dire omens and dark undertones it is nevertheless true that at the same time there were quite a few light hearted and humorous episodes mingling with those other elements. And the humor more often than not stemmed from the team members and secondaries´ characterization. I for one particularly loved Jarvis and Marilla´s interactions. It was interesting to see the butler reacting to the changing dynamics at the mansion due to the introduction of the inhuman nanny. I really HATED when she was killed during that utter piece of garbage called "The Crossing". I honestly think that, for all it´s soap opera melodrama (and lets remember that this wasn´t an element absent from previous creative efforts within the MU -Stan the Man, I´m looking at you...-) and schmaltz, this era probably boasted the deepest levels of characterization layering and explorations of members of the team interactions in Avengers´ history, before or since. Arguably this was achieved in no small part due to the fact that these Avengers were not appearing regularly in any other comic at the time. All I can say, IMO, is that these characters actually felt like a bunch of people working and interacting together. A rather normal group of individuals, really, once we got past their superpowers.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 12, 2013 12:43:21 GMT -5
I for one particularly loved Jarvis and Marilla´s interactions. It was interesting to see the butler reacting to the changing dynamics at the mansion due to the introduction of the inhuman nanny. I really HATED when she was killed during that utter piece of garbage called "The Crossing". I totally agree. Marilla was the perfect foil for Jarvis and the 2 of them provided the book with some much needed comic relief. Her death and that of Yellowjacket II were 2 of the most pointless deaths in the history of Marvel. Even with all the stuff of recent years, The Crossing still remains, for me, the worst story ever told.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 12, 2013 14:15:32 GMT -5
I posit than when a lot of people think about the Avengers at the time as grim and gritty they´re confusing the ART (which certainly was full of posturing, scowling and teeth-grinding, with the WRITING. While quite a bit of the ongoing saga was charged with drama, melodrama, angst, dire omens and dark undertones it is nevertheless true that at the same time there were quite a few light hearted and humorous episodes mingling with those other elements. And the humor more often than not stemmed from the team members and secondaries´ characterization. I for one particularly loved Jarvis and Marilla´s interactions. It was interesting to see the butler reacting to the changing dynamics at the mansion due to the introduction of the inhuman nanny. I really HATED when she was killed during that utter piece of garbage called "The Crossing". I honestly think that, for all it´s soap opera melodrama (and lets remember that this wasn´t an element absent from previous creative efforts within the MU -Stan the Man, I´m looking at you...-) and schmaltz, this era probably boasted the deepest levels of characterization layering and explorations of members of the team interactions in Avengers´ history, before or since. Arguably this was achieved in no small part due to the fact that these Avengers were not appearing regularly in any other comic at the time. All I can say, IMO, is that these characters actually felt like a bunch of people working and interacting together. A rather normal group of individuals, really, once we got past their superpowers. Oh, I don't know about that. I superficially remember (I think it was during Harras' run) where Cap, in a thought bubble, said something like "these Avengers are more vicious than in the past. Oh well, maybe that's for the best" or something like that. Captain America, of all people, condoning a more vicious, violent, breed of Avenger. Also, there were several members that committed cold blooded murder (Black Knight, Sersi). Maybe what they did was right and for the best, but it was certainly a darker tone than before. A Silver or Bronze Age Avenger never would have intentionally done those things, or at least would have had some compunction about it. Sersi changed from a fun loving gal to a violent, raging psychopath with a bad attitude, who clearly revels in violence. Yes, the art was grim and gritty, perhaps more so than the writing, but the writing had definitely taken a darker turn as well.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 12, 2013 20:10:08 GMT -5
Not going to make any effort to do villains in any specific order so the next one is one that I've always liked: The Collector One thing I liked about the Collector is that his motives were simple and clear - at least in the beginning. He also visually looked like a very unlikely foe for the Avengers. This cover is fairly similar to the first, even to the point of having 4 Avengers coming to the rescue, but I like them both. They make who the Collector is clear. I also really enjoyed his general involvement with the Korvac Saga. Now things got a little more complicated. I didn't hate the version of the character from this story or the story itself but it never quite felt right to change the character so much physically. To me, the fact that he was a frail old man with tons of alien technology was more interesting.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 13, 2013 6:43:02 GMT -5
#174 was one of the first Avengers comics I owned and brings back many pleasant memories. :-)
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Jun 13, 2013 10:13:31 GMT -5
#174 was one of the first Avengers comics I owned and brings back many pleasant memories. :-) Same here. The betrayal by his daughter was great moment of pathos. It's probably the story in which The Collector made the most sense as a character since he was genuinely trying to preserve the Avengers.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 13, 2013 17:20:40 GMT -5
Klaw has never been a major favorite for me but he's okay. I think that's because he's been so inconsistently written. Sometimes, he's a ruthless madman, sometimes he's a henchman, and sometimes his a joke. Of course he's never been more of a joke than he was during Secret Wars. I really enjoyed the limited series but that aspect was way over the top. This was a pretty decent cover. This is by far my favorite Klaw cover or story. If all his appearances had been this good, he would move way up my list of favorites. I haven't been including Spotlight, but this cover is one of his better ones. I don't understand why Ironman was featured though. Wasn't the general concept for this book that it would give a chance for Avengers who didn't have their own titles to shine?
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 15, 2013 22:09:03 GMT -5
Klaw has never been a major favorite for me but he's okay. I think that's because he's been so inconsistently written. Sometimes, he's a ruthless madman, sometimes he's a henchman, and sometimes his a joke. Of course he's never been more of a joke than he was during Secret Wars. I really enjoyed the limited series but that aspect was way over the top. Now, if I remember a-right, Klaw was initially introduced in Fantastic Four, along w/ the Black Panther. And it very much seemed like he was designed to be T'Challa's arch-nemesis at that point. Does that ring a bell? Wasn't he German or Austrian. . . or was he Afrikaner? He was certainly a mad-scientist nut-job, though. He's also an example of Stan's inability to understand even rudimentary science (followed by everyone else on the staff, I suppose). His whole initial "solid sound construct" ability is just. . .well, it's stupid. It made me crazy even as a youth. I'm no scientist, believe me, but there are some basic principles that I do have a fine grasp of--- and Klaw doesn't fit into them. Sound isn't "stuff"-- it doesn't materially exist. As I remember, it is the transfer of vibrating energy from molecule to the next. It acts upon and affects matter-- but is not matter, itself. My other carp w/ Klaw was, why in the world did he look like that once he'd had his transformative accident?? Why no nose, and the jagged mouth opening?? Why a "costume" at all??? In a universe of make-believe people and abilities, he holds up under scrutiny even worse than most. Where did his scientific intellect disappear to? You know what, maybe he never WAS Ulysses Klaw after the accident. . . but just some sort of immaterial being that became trapped in Klaw's sound-field, and imprinted itself w/ Klaw's brain patterns even as he died in the accident. Man, wouldn't be the first time something like that happened, eh? HB
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Post by Crimson Cowl on Jun 16, 2013 4:25:34 GMT -5
He's also an example of Stan's inability to understand even rudimentary science (followed by everyone else on the staff, I suppose). His whole initial "solid sound construct" ability is just. . .well, it's stupid. It made me crazy even as a youth. I'm no scientist, believe me, but there are some basic principles that I do have a fine grasp of--- and Klaw doesn't fit into them. Sound isn't "stuff"-- it doesn't materially exist. As I remember, it is the transfer of vibrating energy from molecule to the next. It acts upon and affects matter-- but is not matter, itself. My earliest recollections of Klaw was in Marvel 2 in 1 when he and Solarr tried to break out of Project Pegasus. Perez art too. I loved that comic and it became extremely tattered from over reading. I really liked Klaw and the idea of 'solid sound' totally blew my mind (Ben countered it by very gently pushing his finger through the force field). It was mind expanding stuff. Of course we had the Aquarian after that... As a result I've always had a bit of a soft spot for good old Klaw. Whilst the science is of course dodgy, I think there is some merit to the idea that vibrations can be experienced by people as if they were solid, tangible, whatever you want to call it (quite why the sources of these vibrations would manifest in the form of bright red animals is another question -but, hey!). The rationale, and why he just turned into a megalomaniacal super villain always itching for a dust up, rather than the scientist he had been is an excellent point. I guess the emphasis had always been more on him as an exploitative Western colonialist/conquistador seeking wealth and power than as a 'proper' scientist. In truth they never really seemed to know what to do with him afterwards.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 16, 2013 22:49:36 GMT -5
The next villain, for no reason at all, is Arkon. I've never been quite sure where I stand on Arkon. Some of his stories have been pretty good and none are coming to mind that I hated. On the other hand, I've never felt that I had a real sense of the character. None of the stories stand out to me as great either. Every Arkon story seems like a filler to me. The King Kong approach was a little bizarre. I'm not crazy about this cover for that reason, but it was better than his one in WCA, so... This one is better. I can take him more seriously here. This was the best Arkon cover I found, and also the best storyline. He really wasn't even a villain in this one. Actually, it was always a little hard to figure out whether he was a villain or not. I certainly wouldn't classify him as a hero or friend of the Avengers. I'm not sure what he is.
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 17, 2013 9:02:41 GMT -5
I liked a couple of the Arkon stories in the X-Men. I think there was an X-Men Annual with him. I think there was also a Marvel Two-in-One with him and Thundra that I enjoyed. The Avengers #358 cover you have is a good one.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 17, 2013 20:16:35 GMT -5
Arkon has always gotten a big, ol' yawn from me as well, SW. As soon as a story is grounded in some world in a different "dimension", about 75% of my interest goes fluttering away-- and this was even more pronounced with Arkon's ill-defined, barely thought out Polemachus or Telemachus or EdMcMahonus or whatever it was. The "different" dimension must have been the Second Dimension, 'cause that was one heck of a flat social model that they had operatin' there (IIRC). (Mind you, I refer largely to that first appearance.) And of COURSE the fate of the Earth is somehow inexplicably tied to the fate of this impossibly remote world. And of COURSE the ruler is yet another thinks-with-fist-and-weapons barbarian warrior king. And of COURSE he has untrustworthy advisers. And of COURSE he (gnargh!!) is hopelessly smitten with Wanda, who of COURSE finds herself attracted to him against her better judgment. Arkon is only memorable to me because he was holdin' onto Wanda, I think, when she and Vision met for the very, very first time. And it was nice that that first meeting got Wanda & Pietro back onto the team. But geeze-- that 747 tailpiece of a helmet?? And a BACKPACK full of LIGHTNING BOLTS? Do we think that Arkon desperately avoided looking in his bedroom mirror every morning once he'd put his gear on? I mean, I suppose there's some element of heroism in going out there dressed in the fool get-up that his subjects expect him to wear. . . HB
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 17, 2013 20:57:14 GMT -5
Magneto is, of course, primarily an X-Men villain (When he's not a member) but he has had a few notable Avenger appearances as well. I like this cover. I even like the bright yellow boarder with the other characters. I'm glad it wasn't used often because it would have gotten really old really fast but it does make this cover pop. It hasn't been long since I read this but I still can't remember what happened. Nice cover though. This is part of the controversial run we've recently been talking about in other threads. I never cared for this look for Wanda but the cover represents Magneto pretty nicely. I know my general practice for this thread has been to post my 3 favorite covers but this one makes Magneto so ridiculous that I couldn't help but throw it in as a bonus. I think he looks more like he should be menacing Scooby Doo and the gang instead of the mighty Avengers. I can almost hear him going "Hee hee hee hee. I'll get you meddlesome kids if it's the last thing I do."
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 17, 2013 21:37:12 GMT -5
Nice grouping of covers spread over several years, SW! Magneto is, of course, primarily an X-Men villain (When he's not a member) but he has had a few notable Avenger appearances as well. I like this cover. I even like the bright yellow boarder with the other characters. I'm glad it wasn't used often because it would have gotten really old really fast but it does make this cover pop. Boy, Hawkeye's shootin' Quickie right in the head. Tensions were indeed running high! Also, it's neat to see Wanda with the black hair she sported much of the time in their earlier years. More in keeping, I daresay, w/ their eastern European origins. Gil Kane, I think-- yes? I seem to remember seeing somewhere this cover re-used for another book at some point. . . or was a re-use of another cover itself. Does that ring a bell w/ anyone? Just read this a couple of days ago, in fact. It's quite a good cover, IMO. Paul Ryan channeling the recently-departed John Byrne. Ha! Nice. Yes-- what the heck are we looking at, anyway? A quinjet? A plane? A car? A spaceship? There's an unintentional silliness added by the fact that the interior detail above Maggie's head makes it look an AWFUL lot like he's sprouted antennae-! HB
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 18, 2013 6:34:01 GMT -5
Magneto in the Avengers #111 cover looks more like the Toad with a store bought Magneto helmet on.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 18, 2013 21:52:58 GMT -5
For some reason, I don't think Graviton has ever been that popular with Avenger fans, but I like him. He has a pretty decent power and just enough craziness to make him enjoyable. I like the fact that he sees himself as much more than he really is. There's something hokey about the way he's holding the girl on his first cover but, as I said, it's hokey in a sort of fun way. Even from the start, he's such a loser that the girl he's doing everything to impress just wants to get away and he's completely clueless. This is a really good cover. Graviton was the first major foe the WCA faced and he gave them a pretty good battle. Holding Wonderman at the bottom of the pool was a pretty sharp move. At least, it would have been if he hadn't done it to the one member of the team it wouldn't affect. Typical Graviton. Holding Tigra on a leash was another example of Graviton's loser behavior. I don't know what it is about goofy villains that often appeals to me. The only thing that's ever bothered me about Graviton though is his uncanny resemblance to Count Nefaria. Separated at birth?
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 19, 2013 7:24:41 GMT -5
I don't know what it is about goofy villains that often appeals to me. The only thing that's ever bothered me about Graviton though is his uncanny resemblance to Count Nefaria. Separated at birth? Boy, that's for sure. Especially because these two covers. . . . . . were only seven issues apart! And BOTH stories were memorable in the fact that these two nut-jobs had the entire team completely on the ropes, and should have been unbeatable. Hmm-- and am I remembering correctly that ego/vanity played a major part in their undoing in each story? Graviton was distracted and disrupted by the suicide attempt of that young woman he was obsessed with, and--- didn't Nefaria become freaked out by the fact that he seemed to be aging at an accelerated rate? (Granted, a more dire distraction. ) To this day, those two villains remain interchangeable in my mind. It's so funny that no one caught this at the time. HB
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Post by wundagoreborn on Jun 19, 2013 10:43:39 GMT -5
If graying temples and a goatee = evil, there's a whole generation of villains in the land right now.
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Post by Marvel Boy on Jun 19, 2013 11:05:34 GMT -5
If graying temples and a goatee = evil, there's a whole generation of villains in the land right now. Wait a minute, I have some gray in my goatee........Muahahahahaha! ;D Should I feel bad that the only place I've read of Arkon so far is in his Handbook of the Marvel Universe entry? The cover of #159, was Graviton able to make Mjolnir so heavy that Thor couldn't lift it? Wanda with black hair. Y'know I never noticed that before now. I haven't read all that much of her appearances from that period so I guess I never knew of a difference to start with. But why the change? A colorist got it wrong at some point and it just stuck or did Stan forget himself?
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 19, 2013 11:33:09 GMT -5
If graying temples and a goatee = evil, there's a whole generation of villains in the land right now. Uh-oh, I may be conspicuously villainaous, too,then. Cripes. Except the goatee has been temporarily allowed to bush out to Methusaleh proportions. . . HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 19, 2013 11:58:32 GMT -5
If graying temples and a goatee = evil, there's a whole generation of villains in the land right now. Wanda with black hair. Y'know I never noticed that before now. I haven't read all that much of her appearances from that period so I guess I never knew of a difference to start with. But why the change? A colorist got it wrong at some point and it just stuck or did Stan forget himself? On the inside pages, she had black hair when she left in issue #49, and that really dark auburn when she returned in issue #76. Never any mention of why the change, to my knowledge. Nor, apparently, were the cover colorists ever clued in to that change, 'cause her hair stayed black on the covers for YEARS! It was quite some time before the covers conceded to making it a very, very dark brown, and even then they would just as often go back to making it black again. A quick scan through a cover gallery shows it being black as late as issue #140 (!). Wow, I never, ever noticed this before either. To me, auburn is her "natural" color, 'cause that's how I first came to know her. I also like the idea of a nice, normal head of regular (common) brown hair on a female hero. Ironically, there are hardly any. But I do see where the raven black would be more appropriate for Wanda's background and is more striking against the scarlet costume. The light brown/red/ginger that we sometimes see lately? No, no, no on all counts. HB
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Post by ultron69 on Jun 19, 2013 13:55:05 GMT -5
I have liked Gravitron, maybe because of when he first appeared, right around when I started collecting The Avengers. Also, he's such an over the top, egotistical, villanous villain, that I just thought he was a fun baddie.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 19, 2013 22:41:00 GMT -5
The villain of the day is...Power Man. No, not Luke Cage. This is the Power Man who would later go on to be Goliath and even later Atlas of the Thunderbolts. He changed a lot over the years. Probably because he was rather bland as Power Man so change was needed. Being beaten by this guy was not exactly a great moment for Cap and his Kooky Quartet. He looks good on the cover though. By this point, he was no longer Power Man. He was a little better as Goliath but sort of got lost in shuffle with so many villains, even though IMO this is one of the Avengers finest stories. I can't of like this cover. I found it amusing that, after losing his Power Man name to Cage, he was determined to fight for the right to Goliath.
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