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Post by starfoxxx on May 10, 2012 15:04:16 GMT -5
I loved the movie----- A+
But I found myself loving the movie for the same reasons I loved the comic book (Volume One up until the 90s and Volume 3, specifically).
The film makers (Whedon and Zack Penn) really "get" what made the AVENGERS work for years and years----the CHEMISTRY!!!!
Thor- the god amongst "mere mortals", like Hawkeye and BW (but even without powers they can hold their own.
Cap's idealism vs. Tony's "futurist" thinking.
Thor's respect for Cap.
Hawkeye and BW's "dark pasts" that bring levels to their characters.
The clashing of "super"- egos.
Even HULK worked for me-----and I NEVER considered the Hulk a "real' Avenger, at least until very recently--- the Avengers:EMH cartoon, where he fits in great, as well.
The inner fighting, always distracting them from the REAL threat.
Loki was fantastic, truly evil.
In the theater, I kept whispering to my girlfriend, "That's just how they acted in the comic book"!!! ;D
ANYhoo, after years and years of crap, it was sooooo nice to see a proper treatment of the Avengers franchise (Avengers:EMH is also top-notch, IMO).
The point I'm trying to get to is ------
SPIDER-MAN and WOLVERINE are soooo unnecessary and out of place in the AVENGERS. Bendis just never got it.
MARVEL execs---PLEASE convince Joss Whedon to start writing the Avengers comic book!
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Post by tomspasic on May 11, 2012 7:52:44 GMT -5
Preaching to the choir with me.
A Whedon Avengers book would be amazing.
And the film does make Bendis avengers look bad.
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Post by humanbelly on May 11, 2012 8:59:30 GMT -5
My subscriptions to New Avengers & Secret Avengers are still trickling in as they run their course. The day after I saw the film, I opened up the current NA to see if there was any conscious nod to what will HAVE to be the most absurdly huge influx of interest in a comic-book franchise ever. Would there be any attempt at all to capitalize or connect? Any tiny effort to appeal to folks who loved the film, and would therefore take a look at the comic-books?
They are, of course, in the midst of the Avengers vs X-Men event. I will confess that I only glanced through it, but the entire issue seemed to focus solely on an asian or shao-lin monk/priest from a couple of centuries ago. Looks to be Iron Fist's order, maybe? He's obviously having nightmares about the Phoenix-- and somehow at the end he comes across (and takes in) a red-haired, Rachel Summers/Jean Grey-looking girl.
Hey, how could that not appease several million potential new fans, rabidly hungry to see more of the characters from the movie? They're screamin' for double-chocolate Moose-tracks sundaes, and Marvel Editorial clearly believes that what they really want (and just don't know it) are wheat-germ crackers with liver paste.
Really. This is what's good. Trust us. Not your own self.
The self-sabotage is so egregious (again, no console game???) that one has to almost wonder if it's intentional. . . good lord.
Hmm. And you know what we didn't see in the movie, and yet it still seems to have had a modest measure of success, somehow-?
1) "-th' Hell?"
2) "Google it."
3) Characters with identical, universally snarky speaking habits
4) The !@#$% Hood
-- heck, feel free to add to the list. . . (and pardon my rant, I suppose.)
HB
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Post by Shiryu on May 11, 2012 10:25:18 GMT -5
Careful what you (don't) wish for, guys. Everyone at Marvel, actors included, are saying they would love to have Spider-Man in Avengers 2 and that it would be good to find a way to split revenues with Sony. It's very unlikely, but it might happen
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Post by tomspasic on May 11, 2012 12:30:58 GMT -5
@hb, "avengers Assemble" another Bendis penned book is the "movie tie in" type book, featuring the comic versions of the cast in a more traditional superhero setting and story. For Bendis, it's not that awful. I mean, compared to his other Avengers stuff. It's pretty sub-par compared to a decent writer on the book, but the closest he's gotten to an actual Avengers comic in 8 years. Shiryu, Noooooooooooo*breathes in*oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!11!11oneoneone.. |
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Post by humanbelly on May 11, 2012 16:22:41 GMT -5
Careful what you (don't) wish for, guys. Everyone at Marvel, actors included, are saying they would love to have Spider-Man in Avengers 2 and that it would be good to find a way to split revenues with Sony. It's very unlikely, but it might happen Well--- I have generally been the guy who plaintively argues that Spidey is really a great team-player, and always enjoyed his earlier forays in trying out Avengerhood. Now, the Peter Parker I see performing well in that capacity would be the mature, responsible one who was married to MJ, and not the one-dimensional stand-up comedian that began to appear in the Avengers books in recent years-- but I'm willing to keep an open mind about trying him in a movie. O'course, we run smack into a "too many big names in the sequel" situation, so maybe some second thoughts. . . HB |
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Post by humanbelly on May 11, 2012 16:31:11 GMT -5
@hb, "avengers Assemble" another Bendis penned book is the "movie tie in" type book, featuring the comic versions of the cast in a more traditional superhero setting and story. For Bendis, it's not that awful. I mean, compared to his other Avengers stuff. It's pretty sub-par compared to a decent writer on the book, but the closest he's gotten to an actual Avengers comic in 8 years. Shiryu, Noooooooooooo*breathes in*oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!11!11oneoneone.. Even though I never managed to get the 5th & final issue, I did think Avengers Prime was first-rate. Particularly in its reverence for the Steve Rogers we all loved. I remember a lot of folks giving most of the credit to Alan Davis for that book, though. Dare I ask about the cover price for Avengers Assemble-? HB |
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Post by Shiryu on May 11, 2012 19:51:38 GMT -5
Even though I never managed to get the 5th & final issue, I did think Avengers Prime was first-rate. Particularly in its reverence for the Steve Rogers we all loved. I remember a lot of folks giving most of the credit to Alan Davis for that book, though. Dare I ask about the cover price for Avengers Assemble-? HB Isn't Avengers Prime the book your dog tore apart? I remember the irony of it. Avengers Assemble is an expensive 3.99$, it's sadly becoming the rule now. But I agree it's not a bad book so far. Especially #3 is action-packed, very unusual for Bendis. |
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Post by Ignore Me! on May 12, 2012 9:27:55 GMT -5
I agree wholeheartedly with ya, Starfoxxx. Josh Whedon has always been amaster of team dynamics and he does not dissapoint. Bendis is what drove me out of comics again and if Whedon started writing Avengers, I'd be first in line.
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on May 14, 2012 10:50:50 GMT -5
I do remember being quite fond of Astonishing X-Men when that came out, and that was Whedon, right? I remember not being into Buffy/Angel, but that he really pulled out a good team book with X-Men.
A nice Whedon-run on an Avengers title could be exactly what Marvel needs. Even if they don't want to admit it.
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Post by humanbelly on May 15, 2012 8:35:08 GMT -5
Even though I never managed to get the 5th & final issue, I did think Avengers Prime was first-rate. Particularly in its reverence for the Steve Rogers we all loved. I remember a lot of folks giving most of the credit to Alan Davis for that book, though. Dare I ask about the cover price for Avengers Assemble-? HB Isn't Avengers Prime the book your dog tore apart? I remember the irony of it. . Yes. Yes, that would have been issue #1. You remember well. Mind you, the weight of this crime didn't seem to be fully realized by my wife, who seemed to be more concerned during this period that the dog also ate most of the kitchen and an astonishing number of her shoes. . . (Hmm. Replaced Avengers Prime #1. Kitchen still retains all of the damage. And maybe only 2 pairs of shoes have been re-stocked. Perhaps I detect a source of some tension. . . ) HB |
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Post by woodside on May 19, 2012 8:22:01 GMT -5
MARVEL execs---PLEASE convince Joss Whedon to start writing the Avengers comic book! I disagree. Side-stepping the continual Bendis-bashing, I don't think Joss Whedon is really suited to write a team book like the Avengers on a regular basis. The reason I say this is because of his 25.5 run on Astonishing X-Men. The guy is great at character dynamics, pacing, humor, and action -- but where he lacks is proper storytelling. The Astonishing X-Men comic has some great scenes, but some of them are really out of place and inconsistent. His run had major emotional impact, sure, but it also had a some major plotholes that you could ride a giant bullet through. Maybe he's improved? I don't know. I do know that his writing on Avengers was pretty good . . . but screenwriters don't always transition perfectly to comics. |
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Post by freedomfighter on May 23, 2012 10:32:18 GMT -5
MARVEL execs---PLEASE convince Joss Whedon to start writing the Avengers comic book! I disagree. Side-stepping the continual Bendis-bashing, I don't think Joss Whedon is really suited to write a team book like the Avengers on a regular basis. The reason I say this is because of his 25.5 run on Astonishing X-Men. The guy is great at character dynamics, pacing, humor, and action -- but where he lacks is proper storytelling. The Astonishing X-Men comic has some great scenes, but some of them are really out of place and inconsistent. His run had major emotional impact, sure, but it also had a some major plotholes that you could ride a giant bullet through. Maybe he's improved? I don't know. I do know that his writing on Avengers was pretty good . . . but screenwriters don't always transition perfectly to comics. Well I didn't find this to be the case at all, but let's argue that you're right. Did you care about the characters in Astonishing? Because pretty much every comic book has plotholes you can fit a planet through. There isn't a single comic out there(or most movies with any fantastic subject material for that matter) that when put through exhaustive plot scrutiny, hold up all that well. People forgive these things when they get other things from a story. Emotional resonance, excitement, a progression from point A to B- and characters who were compelling to read. These are things I thought Whedon did exceptionally well. So even if there are some plot points you don't think he hit, that's your take. Here are points I think he has solidly over Bendis- his stories actually had a progression where things moved solidly and weren't just talking heads for two issues at a time, characters talked like you remembered them and did things that seemed in character; villains were interesting and things flowed with the heroes in real jeopardy. And the real question is, do you think Bendis did a better job of storytelling during his tenure on Avengers? I certainly don't...it often felt like he had one or two moments he wanted to get in a book and would write around that one moment or one line he wanted to get to, no matter how forced or out of character it was. |
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Post by starfoxxx on May 23, 2012 18:13:08 GMT -5
Good point FF.
I don't read anything Bendis does anymore, but I look at the covers.....and it seems to me Bendis is more concerned with Power man and Iron Fist than the actual Avengers team, the Avengers that was a really great comic book for years (I don't mean 1992-97, the 5-year dearth, IMO.) Whedon and Zack Penn GET what makes the Avengers a great comic, and used that for the movie. Bendis has had YEARS to figure it out, and he still seems to be writing Powerman and iron Fist, or ALIAS, but under the Avengers title.
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on May 24, 2012 10:22:53 GMT -5
With the talk of Bendis being off Avengers this year, and since I'm a bit behind in my current Avengers reading (dang Atomic Comics closing...) has it been decided who's taking over the writing for him?
If not... maybe give Whedon a chance to write a story, two-to-three issue arc maybe, just to see how it's received. If it works, and he's interested/has the time, great. If not, then we had a nice guest writer and they move on to someone "in-house."
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Post by freedomfighter on May 24, 2012 12:49:51 GMT -5
With the talk of Bendis being off Avengers this year, and since I'm a bit behind in my current Avengers reading (dang Atomic Comics closing...) has it been decided who's taking over the writing for him? If not... maybe give Whedon a chance to write a story, two-to-three issue arc maybe, just to see how it's received. If it works, and he's interested/has the time, great. If not, then we had a nice guest writer and they move on to someone "in-house." I have to imagine Marvel would drool at the idea of just having the press release about the co-writer/director of the billion dollar Avengers movie taking on the regular title, even for a short stint. However I have to also imagine the billion dollar co-writer/director of the Avengers is going to be getting paid a lot more than a comic company's page rate for his upcoming film projects... |
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on May 24, 2012 14:57:53 GMT -5
Well, I guess it would depend if he did have any upcoming film projects to work on. He's put out Avengers and Cabin in the Woods so far this year, he might be looking for something to do outside of that for a little while.
I agree though, Marvel would probably drool over the idea, and heck, I think there'd be a lot of fans who would to. It would be interesting to see if he'd take the team as it is now (Who is it? Storm, Cap, Hawkeye, Quake, other people) or if he'd want to shake it up.
And now my brain is thinking "ooh, the possibilities!"
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Post by spiderwasp on May 24, 2012 23:03:21 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see if he'd take the team as it is now (Who is it? Storm, Cap, Hawkeye, Quake, other people) or if he'd want to shake it up. And now my brain is thinking "ooh, the possibilities!" Storm is an Avenger? Who is Quake? Is it easier these days to just list the characters who are NOT Avengers? I remember many times looking throught the lists of all the members and the order in which they joined. The nerdy part of me (Which is a big part) enjoys that sort of thing. I don't think a true list is even possible anymore. Anyway, this just shows how out of the loop I am thanks to my Bendis boycott. As for Wheden taking a turn - I guess we can dare to dream but I find it hard to imagine at this point. I would say it would be publicity for the next film but is that even needed? I think the best we could hope for would be a few issues or a limited series but I just don't see him committing himself to a regular book. |
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Post by tomspasic on May 25, 2012 3:37:35 GMT -5
At the very least, they could just adapt the film into a comic.
Then we'd sort of have Whedon writing an Avengers comic.....
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Post by freedomfighter on May 25, 2012 11:55:12 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see if he'd take the team as it is now (Who is it? Storm, Cap, Hawkeye, Quake, other people) or if he'd want to shake it up. And now my brain is thinking "ooh, the possibilities!" Storm is an Avenger? Who is Quake? Is it easier these days to just list the characters who are NOT Avengers? I remember many times looking throught the lists of all the members and the order in which they joined. The nerdy part of me (Which is a big part) enjoys that sort of thing. I don't think a true list is even possible anymore. Anyway, this just shows how out of the loop I am thanks to my Bendis boycott. As for Wheden taking a turn - I guess we can dare to dream but I find it hard to imagine at this point. I would say it would be publicity for the next film but is that even needed? I think the best we could hope for would be a few issues or a limited series but I just don't see him committing himself to a regular book. If it makes you feel better most of the Bendis issues don't follow a majority of the Avengers charter (links to the charter are below) in terms of adhering to the rules and regs set forth, so most of his additions wouldn't be considered full Avengers anyway... www.comic-images.com/details.php?image_id=695&sessionid=258h12vk1h1qoqg3pftb5ndd42www.comic-images.com/details.php?image_id=697&sessionid=258h12vk1h1qoqg3pftb5ndd42 |
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Post by starfoxxx on May 29, 2012 16:13:29 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see if he'd take the team as it is now (Who is it? Storm, Cap, Hawkeye, Quake, other people) or if he'd want to shake it up. And now my brain is thinking "ooh, the possibilities!" Storm is an Avenger? Who is Quake? Is it easier these days to just list the characters who are NOT Avengers? I remember many times looking throught the lists of all the members and the order in which they joined. The nerdy part of me (Which is a big part) enjoys that sort of thing. I don't think a true list is even possible anymore. Anyway, this just shows how out of the loop I am thanks to my Bendis boycott. As for Wheden taking a turn - I guess we can dare to dream but I find it hard to imagine at this point. I would say it would be publicity for the next film but is that even needed? I think the best we could hope for would be a few issues or a limited series but I just don't see him committing himself to a regular book. Hey, Spiderwasp, maybe this will help you get up to date with the membership. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- arts.nationalpost.com/2012/04/30/....f-the-avengers/I hope this link works, I stole it from another great comic site MARVEL COMICS OF THE 1980S Check out his other stuff, I always find cool stuff on his site. <<<<>>> I had stuck this in a post on the GENERAL thread, under Check this Out, but i don't think anyone checked it out. I thought it was pretty cool. And yes, the new members surprised me, too. I guess FLUX just appeared in a one-shot and was killed off. We hardly knew him  . >>>>>>>>>Hey Now! I don't think the link works through THIS thread but I'm pretty sure it still works in the GENERAL/ Check this Out post. Sorry. |
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tomk
New Avenger
Posts: 7
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Post by tomk on May 29, 2012 18:32:57 GMT -5
I have been slowly catching up on all issues I've missed since Bendis took over. I've currently read through the first 40 issues of New Avengers, the first 11 of Mighty Avengers and all of the Secret Invasion mini. I have come to the conclusion that the movie does not make Bendis look like a hack.
No indead. Bendis makes Bendis look like a hack.
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Post by woodside on May 29, 2012 20:24:48 GMT -5
Isn't this all a little moot? A year from now, Bendis will no longer be on Avengers. You're just shoveling dirt onto his grave.
Hey! I have an idea! Let's find ANOTHER way to voice our dislike of Bendis by comparing him to a different writer in a different medium with a cast of characters taken at a different point of their development.
You guys hate Bendis. We get it.
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Post by tomspasic on May 30, 2012 3:33:36 GMT -5
Isn't this all a little moot? A year from now, Bendis will no longer be on Avengers. You're just shoveling dirt onto his grave. Hey! I have an idea! Let's find ANOTHER way to voice our dislike of Bendis by comparing him to a different writer in a different medium with a cast of characters taken at a different point of their development. You guys hate Bendis. We get it. No, it'll be moot in a year. Since he's still writing THREE avengers titles as of today, I see no reason whatsoever why people should not be able to express their opinions of those books, and the writing or art therein. It's perfectly valid to use comparison in criticism, especially if you consider how often Bendis supporters compared his writing style to a "wide screen summer blockbuster movie". Well, now we see what a "widescreen summer blockbuster movie" of the Avengers actually looks like, and surprise surprise it's not Luke Cage shouting "wheres my baby!" whilst Wolverine tortures a captive woman. |
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Post by starfoxxx on May 30, 2012 15:10:26 GMT -5
Here, Here, tomspasic, and have some karma, too.
Yes, we hate Bendis for ruining the comic book we love(d) and grew up with. And the longer he stays writing the AVENGERS, he's just shoveling $H1T on my favorite super-team.
I plan on bashing Bendis for years and years, just in case someone doesn't realize how much I hate him.
here's my idea for any Bendis supporters. How about naming examples of any Avengers-related stories he's written that were exceptional. Or even decent. Or examples of how he has shown any knowledge or respect of the Avengers stories that preceded his 8-years of turning AVengers into a crappy version of Power Man and Iron Fist (no offense to PM/IF, I loved that old comic).
I only hope Bendis crappy writing of Avengers will soon ----BE AVENGED! By a good writer!
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Post by pulpcitizen on May 31, 2012 2:31:23 GMT -5
Isn't this all a little moot? A year from now, Bendis will no longer be on Avengers. You're just shoveling dirt onto his grave. Hey! I have an idea! Let's find ANOTHER way to voice our dislike of Bendis by comparing him to a different writer in a different medium with a cast of characters taken at a different point of their development. You guys hate Bendis. We get it. Karma sent.  |
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Post by pulpcitizen on May 31, 2012 2:33:50 GMT -5
Isn't this all a little moot? A year from now, Bendis will no longer be on Avengers. You're just shoveling dirt onto his grave. Hey! I have an idea! Let's find ANOTHER way to voice our dislike of Bendis by comparing him to a different writer in a different medium with a cast of characters taken at a different point of their development. You guys hate Bendis. We get it. No, it'll be moot in a year. Since he's still writing THREE avengers titles as of today, I see no reason whatsoever why people should not be able to express their opinions of those books, and the writing or art therein. It's perfectly valid to use comparison in criticism, especially if you consider how often Bendis supporters compared his writing style to a "wide screen summer blockbuster movie". Well, now we see what a "widescreen summer blockbuster movie" of the Avengers actually looks like, and surprise surprise it's not Luke Cage shouting "wheres my baby!" whilst Wolverine tortures a captive woman. I don't think Woodside is dismissing the validity of, or the right to criticise, I think he is pointing out that little new is being added to the criticism that has been undertaken, ad nauseum seemingly. I may be wrong about that though. |
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Post by betaraybill on May 31, 2012 4:06:33 GMT -5
I think it'll be a long time before Bendis' influence on the Avengers is dissipated, if ever. And, I would be very surprised if they pulled him off of the franchise before it hits #600.
I've been out of the loop, and so I don't know if you've discussed that milestone here. My understanding is Marvel's only counting the "New Avengers" as continuous from volume 3 (#503).
If my math is right (and I scored a 530 in Math on the SATs, so...) #600 will land in December. It'll be his gold watch.
Well... he did his thing in the time that was given him, and he told the stories he wanted to tell. No one can take that away from him.
Personally, I feel like the Avengers have moved on without me. That's what Bendis has done for me.
It was nice to feel reconnected with the movie. That's what Whedon's done for me (also loved Astonishing X-Men, as well as the Firefly tv series).
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Post by freedomfighter on May 31, 2012 14:38:21 GMT -5
Isn't this all a little moot? A year from now, Bendis will no longer be on Avengers. You're just shoveling dirt onto his grave. Hey! I have an idea! Let's find ANOTHER way to voice our dislike of Bendis by comparing him to a different writer in a different medium with a cast of characters taken at a different point of their development. You guys hate Bendis. We get it. Didn't you come into this thread solely to express how Whedon would be a lousy writer on the Avengers comic? So let's recap; you came into the thread to complain about a writer, but then get annoyed when people in greater numbers complain about a different writer? Have we done it before? Sure. Have you defended Bendis a number of times before? Yes, you have. If you have ten people in a room and nine of them hate something and one of them likes it, it's not ganging up if the nine people feel free to express their opinion. You've used this tactic more than once, but the difference is no one is telling you can't say nice things about Bendis. You like Bendis. We get it. Doesn't mean I have to stop disliking his work or feeling free to express that, does it? |
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Post by humanbelly on May 31, 2012 21:24:46 GMT -5
Isn't this all a little moot? A year from now, Bendis will no longer be on Avengers. You're just shoveling dirt onto his grave. Hey! I have an idea! Let's find ANOTHER way to voice our dislike of Bendis by comparing him to a different writer in a different medium with a cast of characters taken at a different point of their development. You guys hate Bendis. We get it. Didn't you come into this thread solely to express how Whedon would be a lousy writer on the Avengers comic? So let's recap; you came into the thread to complain about a writer, but then get annoyed when people in greater numbers complain about a different writer? Have we done it before? Sure. Have you defended Bendis a number of times before? Yes, you have. If you have ten people in a room and nine of them hate something and one of them likes it, it's not ganging up if the nine people feel free to express their opinion. You've used this tactic more than once, but the difference is no one is telling you can't say nice things about Bendis. You like Bendis. We get it. Doesn't mean I have to stop disliking his work or feeling free to express that, does it? I don't know, I don't know-- this seems a bit heavy-handed, FF. My feelings and reasons for disliking BMB's long tenure on my favorite hero-book are, I have no doubt, as strong as anyone's here-- and I know I've fully articulated them on at least a couple of occassions in the past. But at some point it begins to take on a surreal quality of beating a dead horse whilst preaching to the choir. At least that's what it got to for me. The books made me feel bad, and I've stopped reading and subscribing to them. I've voted with my wallet, and don't feel like there's much of anything new to be mined from the Bendis-bashing vein (although I may still sometimes self-indulgently surrender to it). And I just tend to feel worse after ranting about it. He will indeed be leaving the titles, it looks like. Heck, he may already be done, and the lead-time's just still playing out (although that may be unlikely). I count ol' WS as a brave and welcome contributer, because he knows he's posting his views in an environment directly hostile to them. And it's ALWAYS worth having a voice that represents the "opposition", as it were, to remind us that matters of taste are by no means universal, regardless of how they appear in our immediate community, here. Reasonable people can agree to disagree, even when they can't begin to see eye-to-eye (The conversation over on the Ronin thread serves as a terrific example). The Bendis run has clicked for Woodside. It's unreasonable to expect him to be argued or chastised into not liking it-- and in an odd way, I even envy him a bit for the fact that he's enjoyed it. Sure, WS, you might have sounded a tiny bit snarky in your post up there, but geeze, it's like there's a whole thread here where we're "talkin' 'bout how ugly yer mama is" (metaphorically), so I think we can understand a bit of touchiness on your part. I'm delighted it doesn't degenerate into flame-out. Granted, this particular thread might represent an itchy scab that you may not want to pick at too much. . . Anyhoo, that's my bit of input for the evening (WAAAAAAY too busy with big ol' work project of late--!) HB |
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