|
Post by humanbelly on Nov 17, 2012 17:31:26 GMT -5
I don't know, I don't know-- this discussion might be working its way over my head. I'm not the deepest pie crust in the oven. My gut feeling, though, is that, no, this portion of Kang Dynasty wasn't initially conceived as an allegory to the 9/11 attacks and their aftermath. There are others more savvy in the mechanics than I, but I'm pretty sure that even 11 years ago, the production process for any single issue was more protracted than this would have allowed. Notice that they're already delaying the shipping even now of that Uncanny Avengers issue from January to February-- 3 months away. And, as mentioned, that would have required the prior months' set-up of the story to also feed into that allegory-- which of course they couldn't. In fact, Busiek had a special or annual quite early on that he used to foreshadow much of what he was going to happen in the book over the course of time. And I know a good amount of the Kang arc was represented there. Also, since the whole Silent Spot gimmick was set up well ahead of time, it means that this issue would have to have been even more thought-out and prepared than most, and not dashed together at the last moment. I don't know-- I'm sure there are instances where the above doesn't have to hold true, but this thing was too big and too far-reaching, I think, for it to be able to- well- exploit dire current events that way. Also-- I don't think it works as an allegory or metaphor for 9/11, does it? I mean, there may be some superficial elements, but really, it strikes me as having MUCH more in common with the spread of Soviet Era totalitarianism. . . or the Nazi Germany's conquest of Europe. . . or heck, Rome creating it's empire. That's where I would see more common elements and themes, as opposed to a horrific terrorist attack on a global superpower. It just doesn't jibe, y'know? I'd need to re-read Kurt's thank-you letter, but could it be more along the lines of him appreciating that his work was allowed to stand as conceived, even in light of disturbing and terrifying real-world events? Hmm. Has anyone thought to just ask him? Do any old-timers maintain any contact with him at all? Find out just what his memory of this episode might be? That would be the best thing, if possible, yeah? Now, I'm still totally agreeing that it didn't work for me at all, story-and-universe-wise. I think the whole "Silence" convention hurt the impact and believability of this story (which may have already been in trouble), as it removed half of what we readers rely on as a means of relating the story. There simply isn't the richness and depth of detail and complex story-telling available when you take all of the words out. And when the story is THAT HUGE, the reader is put at a hopeless disadvantage. As much as I thoroughly enjoyed Busiek's run on this title- I truly, truly did- this event was simply a jarring wreck for me. And sadly, it's where I mark the very, very beginning of the decline that led to "Disassembled" and beyond. (But I shan't rant about that out of respect to my pal Woodside! ) HB
|
|
|
Post by Crimson Cowl on Nov 18, 2012 17:43:53 GMT -5
There are others more savvy in the mechanics than I, but I'm pretty sure that even 11 years ago, the production process for any single issue was more protracted than this would have allowed. Notice that they're already delaying the shipping even now of that Uncanny Avengers issue from January to February-- 3 months away. And, as mentioned, that would have required the prior months' set-up of the story to also feed into that allegory-- which of course they couldn't. Can't claim any great knowledge on this front either but my impression was that the industry is a bit more hand to mouth than you're suggesting. By your reckoning an issue is 'in the can' 3 months in advance and that much time is spent on 'post-production'. I find that hard to beleive, but I could easily be wrong. In any event there could be many reasons for a change to schedule and it needn't be anything to do with the work on that actual issue. No doubt someone will have a better knowledge of the timescale involved. Well, for all intents and purposes Busiek has already denied it. I haven't read it but apparently he was asked about this and claimed that the attack on Washington was planned in advance (you'll find I mentioned this earlier). There's never been any suggestion AFAIK that it was anything to do with deadlines -Woodside just came up with that to explain the seeming coincidence and seemingly 'inappropriate' nature of the material. It seems like way too much of a coincidence to me. The timing of 9/11 appears to coincide exactly with when you's expect #49 to be written. Also you seem to be misunderstanding the debate about the allusions. Yes the attack is so cataclysmic that it is difficult not to view it in light of the concurrent WTC attack, but the rest of the material (especially when taken with the subsequent 'Avengers in Guantanamo' storyline) seems to indicate a critique of the invasion of Afghanistan and the so-called 'War on Terror' (or at least that is what I'm suggesting). As for the associations with Siberian Gulags and Nazi POW or concentration camps -yeah, sure, those are certainly ready parallels too. Anyway, as I said, I just don't really buy Busiek's denials. It's not that I think he's lying, it's more a matter of perspective. Creation needn't be setting out to write a full blown commentary on something but is more often more organic than that. Contemporary events are likely to greatly influence the thought processes, provide inspiration, and the material be greatly affected as a result. I find it really hard to believe that isn't the case here. BTW I do completely agree with you that the storyline had already gone way over the top with the Master's fortification popping up to surround so many cities before ish #49. It was the thing with Washington that put the whole thing utterly beyond the pale for me though (I was pretty appalled at the revival of the Ms Marvel/Marcus thing too -I mean c'mon!).
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Nov 18, 2012 22:05:14 GMT -5
[Well, for all intents and purposes Busiek has already denied it. I haven't read it but apparently he was asked about this and claimed that the attack on Washington was planned in advance (you'll find I mentioned this earlier). There's never been any suggestion AFAIK that it was anything to do with deadlines -Woodside just came up with that to explain the seeming coincidence and seemingly 'inappropriate' nature of the material. It seems like way too much of a coincidence to me. The timing of 9/11 appears to coincide exactly with when you's expect #49 to be written. Also you seem to be misunderstanding the debate about the allusions. Yes the attack is so cataclysmic that it is difficult not to view it in light of the concurrent WTC attack, but the rest of the material (especially when taken with the subsequent 'Avengers in Guantanamo' storyline) seems to indicate a critique of the invasion of Afghanistan and the so-called 'War on Terror' (or at least that is what I'm suggesting). As for the associations with Siberian Gulags and Nazi POW or concentration camps -yeah, sure, those are certainly ready parallels too. Anyway, as I said, I just don't really buy Busiek's denials. It's not that I think he's lying, it's more a matter of perspective. Creation needn't be setting out to write a full blown commentary on something but is more often more organic than that. Contemporary events are likely to greatly influence the thought processes, provide inspiration, and the material be greatly affected as a result. I find it really hard to believe that isn't the case here. Your latter point about creative direction being influenced by current events is a valid one. But. . . if Kurt Busiek has indeed said that it wasn't the case with this story (and this particular issue) in any major way, then I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and take him at his word. There's a real event and a story event, and they both have a coincidental time-frame and some strongly co-incidental elements-- but any connection between the two is simply an assumption. The appearance alone just doesn't make it so, y'know? Remember the whole argument about John Lennon's "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" being a transparent code/acronym for LSD? And Lennon's story was that, no, it was from a picture that young Julian drew in school, that he brought home. . . and that was what the boy called it. The press, the fans, the detractors-- they all flat-out refused to believe it, and chastised Lennon for years, insisting he come clean. And Lennon never, ever backed away from that explanation-- maintained that it was nothing more than a very cool coincidence. He freely admitted to drug use/influence while writing the song, even, and wasn't one to worry about his "image" in such matters-- but in this case, the title simply didn't originate from that. And he was called a liar. In a relatively recent biography, even Paul McCartney comes to his defense, saying that he himself now possesses Julian's picture, and that he (I think-- it was either him or Ringo) was there when Julian came home with it and told John what the title was. Sometimes, an oddball coincidence is exactly that. My long point, I guess, is that when a writer/artist/creator/composer/etc. does articulate what his influences are or what the genesis of his piece was, it's rather a matter of professional and artistic respect to accept that as being the truth until that person says or does something demonstrably to the contrary. It would make me crazy to be in Busiek's shoes and have that kind of questioning of, really, my integrity nipping away at my heels, y'know? (Oh man, don't even get me goin' down the "Paul is Dead" road-!!) HB
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Nov 19, 2012 6:39:57 GMT -5
[Well, for all intents and purposes Busiek has already denied it. I haven't read it but apparently he was asked about this and claimed that the attack on Washington was planned in advance (you'll find I mentioned this earlier). There's never been any suggestion AFAIK that it was anything to do with deadlines -Woodside just came up with that to explain the seeming coincidence and seemingly 'inappropriate' nature of the material. It seems like way too much of a coincidence to me. The timing of 9/11 appears to coincide exactly with when you's expect #49 to be written. Also you seem to be misunderstanding the debate about the allusions. Yes the attack is so cataclysmic that it is difficult not to view it in light of the concurrent WTC attack, but the rest of the material (especially when taken with the subsequent 'Avengers in Guantanamo' storyline) seems to indicate a critique of the invasion of Afghanistan and the so-called 'War on Terror' (or at least that is what I'm suggesting). As for the associations with Siberian Gulags and Nazi POW or concentration camps -yeah, sure, those are certainly ready parallels too. Anyway, as I said, I just don't really buy Busiek's denials. It's not that I think he's lying, it's more a matter of perspective. Creation needn't be setting out to write a full blown commentary on something but is more often more organic than that. Contemporary events are likely to greatly influence the thought processes, provide inspiration, and the material be greatly affected as a result. I find it really hard to believe that isn't the case here. Your latter point about creative direction being influenced by current events is a valid one. But. . . if Kurt Busiek has indeed said that it wasn't the case with this story (and this particular issue) in any major way, then I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and take him at his word. There's a real event and a story event, and they both have a coincidental time-frame and some strongly co-incidental elements-- but any connection between the two is simply an assumption. The appearance alone just doesn't make it so, y'know? Remember the whole argument about John Lennon's "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" being a transparent code/acronym for LSD? And Lennon's story was that, no, it was from a picture that young Julian drew in school, that he brought home. . . and that was what the boy called it. The press, the fans, the detractors-- they all flat-out refused to believe it, and chastised Lennon for years, insisting he come clean. And Lennon never, ever backed away from that explanation-- maintained that it was nothing more than a very cool coincidence. He freely admitted to drug use/influence while writing the song, even, and wasn't one to worry about his "image" in such matters-- but in this case, the title simply didn't originate from that. And he was called a liar. In a relatively recent biography, even Paul McCartney comes to his defense, saying that he himself now possesses Julian's picture, and that he (I think-- it was either him or Ringo) was there when Julian came home with it and told John what the title was. Sometimes, an oddball coincidence is exactly that. My long point, I guess, is that when a writer/artist/creator/composer/etc. does articulate what his influences are or what the genesis of his piece was, it's rather a matter of professional and artistic respect to accept that as being the truth until that person does says or does something demonstrably to the contrary. It would make me crazy to be in Busiek's shoes and have that kind of questioning of, really, my integrity nipping away at my heels, y'know? (Oh man, don't even get me goin' down the "Paul is Dead" road-!!) HB The walrus was Paul. Anyway, we wouldn't want you to take the trouble, Belly. That would be a long and winding road, indeed. ;D
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Nov 20, 2012 11:15:57 GMT -5
Your latter point about creative direction being influenced by current events is a valid one. But. . . if Kurt Busiek has indeed said that it wasn't the case with this story (and this particular issue) in any major way, then I would be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and take him at his word. There's a real event and a story event, and they both have a coincidental time-frame and some strongly co-incidental elements-- but any connection between the two is simply an assumption. The appearance alone just doesn't make it so, y'know? Remember the whole argument about John Lennon's "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" being a transparent code/acronym for LSD? And Lennon's story was that, no, it was from a picture that young Julian drew in school, that he brought home. . . and that was what the boy called it. The press, the fans, the detractors-- they all flat-out refused to believe it, and chastised Lennon for years, insisting he come clean. And Lennon never, ever backed away from that explanation-- maintained that it was nothing more than a very cool coincidence. He freely admitted to drug use/influence while writing the song, even, and wasn't one to worry about his "image" in such matters-- but in this case, the title simply didn't originate from that. And he was called a liar. In a relatively recent biography, even Paul McCartney comes to his defense, saying that he himself now possesses Julian's picture, and that he (I think-- it was either him or Ringo) was there when Julian came home with it and told John what the title was. Sometimes, an oddball coincidence is exactly that. My long point, I guess, is that when a writer/artist/creator/composer/etc. does articulate what his influences are or what the genesis of his piece was, it's rather a matter of professional and artistic respect to accept that as being the truth until that person does says or does something demonstrably to the contrary. It would make me crazy to be in Busiek's shoes and have that kind of questioning of, really, my integrity nipping away at my heels, y'know? (Oh man, don't even get me goin' down the "Paul is Dead" road-!!) HB The walrus was Paul. Anyway, we wouldn't want you to take the trouble, Belly. That would be a long and winding road, indeed. ;D LOL! ;D You're right, Bong, we should just let it be...
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Nov 20, 2012 13:17:37 GMT -5
The walrus was Paul. Anyway, we wouldn't want you to take the trouble, Belly. That would be a long and winding road, indeed. ;D LOL! ;D You're right, Bong, we should just let it be... Wait-- I don't need help. I feel fine. Pretty sure I can make it to the end. . . ;D
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Nov 20, 2012 13:24:46 GMT -5
Good lord-- we are trampling. . . TRAMPLING. . . poor Woodside's thread! So sorry, WS old chum. Perhaps it can be attributed to the ravages of middle age, and the consequent loosening of one's societal inhibitions-?
Er. . . no-?
HB
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Nov 21, 2012 6:37:12 GMT -5
Mea culpa... .
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Nov 21, 2012 7:29:29 GMT -5
Mea culpa... . Well, mind you, I fully recognize the high intellectual merit that working Beatles song titles into idle conversation represents. Clearly a case can be made there for following the call to a higher purpose and working to serve the greater good. . . ;D ("Wait", "Help", "I Feel Fine", "The End". . . get it? Heh- Get it? See, it's a joke, 'cause I used the. . . *ahem*-- never mind. . . just, never mind. . . ) HB
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Dec 11, 2012 18:57:16 GMT -5
Re-reading this run, an interesting thought comes to mind. Back in #4, when the new membership is being determined, I found the media attention to this event to be about on par with the selection of the next Pope. They were camped outside the mansion, interviewing whomever exited all the while eagerly awaiting the news of the new line-up. I can see that within the MU, given the importance and history of the team, but still, it seems odd when shown on-panel. But it adds an extra depth to the story and these characters, to show how public their lives are (despite having secret identities) Can you imagine all the news networks' coverage of this? Fox News would be digging up all the dirt on all possible candidates, every exit poll would be running on who should be a member and CNN would break live with the exciting news.
|
|
|
Post by woodside on Jan 20, 2013 20:59:48 GMT -5
Hey everyone! Life has been crazy busy the past several months. So sorry I haven't gotten these up sooner. Aside from the family and a lot of overtime at work (plus the holidays), we are buying a house and are working hard at getting that ready and getting us moved in.
So here's the second-to-last set of my reviews. Please to enjoy!
Avengers # 51
Kang has sufficiently conquered the Earth. While pockets of resistance persist, most of the heroes and the world governments have laid down their weapons to Kang.
Simon is captured and tossed into a prison camp with Wanda. The two wrangle their feelings for each other, and eventually decide to end their relationship. Using some trickery, they manage to get Wonder Man out and about.
***
Now we got down to it! Much like the Warbird/Scarlet Centurion story, this one is more character driven and down to Earth, working at a more grounded level. We see the results of Kang’s invasion and conquest – hunted heroes, warring countries, and a weak resistance. I liked that we saw glimpses of the other heroes, but I wish there was more. I wish Marvel had just done an annual or a one-shot or even just an issue of Avengers that spent time dealing with the other super-heroes during this time.
Not to mention the common man; I assume that everyone was forced to just sit at home and do nothing as Kang continued his campaign. I imagine that since Kang took over America, he forced all military and police personnel to answer to him and his underlings. It was more than likely “business as usual” until Kang would have time to start his genetically engineered breeding program.
As for the other heroes, I just want to know what was going on. Where were the Fantastic Four, who have overcome all these cosmic obstacles? Where were the X-Men, who had defeated Apocalypse even when the team was at half-power? Where were the Defenders, who were comprised of some of the most powerful people on Earth? Where was Doom? Magneto? Loki? Why didn’t Thor try and convince Odin to help Earth and send down the Warriors Three or Sif?
These are questions that either don’t get addressed or get swept under the rug. I’ve got a theory regarding some of them, but it requires a lot more nerd-tastic energy than what I’ve got right now.
The story presented is pretty solid. The relationship between Simon and Wanda dissolves completely, but with a sense of hope at the end when Wonder Man gets released. It was good and helped paint the picture of what America is going through.
Avengers # 52
The Avengers finally get their act together and free the Wasp. They prepare a counter-attack on Kang and unleash the Presence, Deviants, and Atlanteans upon Kang’s forces. Kang counterattacks, prompting Thor to lead a team to attack Damocles Base. Kang is then attacked by the Trion’s pyramid, and presents himself a giant hologram to deal with it – only to be faced with equally sized holo-Cap.
***
This is issue where the Avengers fight back – and in full force. With President Bush to boot!
I liked this issue, but didn’t love it. It was a bit chaotic. I did enjoy seeing all these elements from earlier come back – including the Presence, the Deviants, and the Atlanteans. And the mention of the Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Alpha Flight fighting back was neat . . . but where were they? Weren’t they established as captured last issue? ARRRRGGGH!
The big, dramatic scene with the pyramid slamming into the Damocles Base was neat. Kang’s giant hologram was kinda dorky, but . . . I can live with it.
Avengers # 53
Quasar, the Vision, Photon, Jack of Hearts, Living Lightning, Justice and Firestar, launch an attack on Damoclues base. They are later joined by Thor, Thor, Warbird, Iron Man, Wonder Man and Firebird – then, finally the Presence, Starlight, and Triathilon. On Earth, Wasp has Stingray, Hank, and Black Knight to attack as well. They pour onto the force field, but it’s the death and release of energy from Jonathan Tremont that does it in. The battle then goes inside, leading Warbird to the power core. She encounters Scarlet Centurion, who then fights Jack of Hearts. Warbird absorbs the core and then explodes it. The Avengers withdraw and the ship goes crashing into the atmosphere.
***
This issue really flew by and I really wish it had been double-sized or something, because it contained so much plot, that much of felt cluttered and uneven.
Holo-Cap vs. Holo-Kang feels unsatisfying and a little hookey. Not like the forgivable “the Avengers feeling” from Morgan LeFaye’s House of Morgan story . . . but more like “really? REALLY? GIANT HOLOGRAMS IN SPACE?!”
The battle into the ship and the subsequent war within is far more interesting. I loved seeing Firestar and Justice in action again. Carol’s moment with the Scarlet Centurion was neat too – as well as the final blow that destroyed the ship. And man, was I never more happy with this book than when Jonathan Tremont died. I also liked Kang saving his son, handing over an empire.
Avengers # 54
The space Avengers following the ship down to Earth and Cap takes down Kang once and for all. The Avengers reunite at the mansion, the war now over. The Master’s technology dissolves, the armies retreat, and the war comes to an end rather effectively. Kang, now defeated, is prepared to face his execution as a war criminal, happy to leave his empire to the Scarlet Centurion. His son, however, shows up and rescues him. Kang kills his son because of his lack of judgment in helping Warbird.
***
I LOVED THIS ISSUE.
I think, out of everything, this might be Busiek’s finest Avengers issue. Here’s why: - Cap’s take-down of Kang. I loved Thor’s comment, “He’s all that’s needed.” Kang, for all his resources, has been stripped down to being “just a man.” - The Avengers taking in the weight of the war – and their subsequent return home. The outpouring of love completely counter-acts the Triune-fueled protests - Carol’s angst over having killed the Master - Kang resigning himself to execution and having handed over his empire to his son
The revelation that Kang knew about Marcus’ betrayal, combined with the fact that he has to kill him, just drives this issue home. That last sequence was gut-wrenching. Busiek built Centurion up to be a likeable character with real promise and loyalty. One screw-up, one slight betrayal, and it costs him his life. It was a punch in stomach and it was so well-done.
My one and only complaint about this issue is the convenient end to the Master’s walls and technology. But, meh, whatever.
Avengers # 55
The Avengers take in the impact of the war. Warbird has the Avengers court-martial her for her killing of the Master. Triathilon releases 3-D Man and his brother to Peggy. Duane’s brother Derek has a conversation with Tony. Thor decides his loves his friends and brings them a big Asgardian banquet. Finally, Tony, Cap, and Jan go to DC to honor the memory of Duane Freeman.
***
So now we have the aftermath.
The court martial nicely parallels the one from “Live Kree or Die,” even down to Carol’s approach to the team. I loved it. We had seen Carol go from rock-bottom, to sobering up, and now, elevating to an even higher level. Perfect.
I also loved seeing all those Avengers in the living room; it paralleled Avengers # 1 very nicely too. Justice’s advice to Jack got a chuckle out of me. I enjoyed the resolution to the Triathlon/3-D Man mess, as it finally buried the crap-tastic Triune Understanding arc. The Vision’s meeting with Darby was a nice nod to the past as well.
The Iron Man/Derek Freeman scene was about the only one I felt dragged out too long. It was heartfelt and resolved an old subplot, but it felt a little bloated. The same with Thor’s speech, though it was nice way to end a crappy character arc.
The final sequence in this issue is just as powerful as the last issues. The dedication and mourning over Duane Freeman was heart-breaking and stirring, in a quiet way. I wish the character hadn’t been so disposable. He’s been buried away for a good long time and I wish a mention of him would be made.
KANG DYNASTY, FINAL WORDS:
I basically split this story into thirds, being issues 42, 43, Annual 2001, 44 – 45; 46-50; and 51-56. The first third does a good job of dealing with the duel threats of Kang and the Presence, tying them together neatly. It also delivers the Atlanteans and the Deviants and we see the Avengers take them on in inventive ways.
The second third of this story gets strangled by the terrible Triune Understanding arc. It fails to focus on Kang material and instead forces this mess down our throats. Even when Kang’s story is at its most interesting and devastating, we are forced to see Triathlon become 3-D Man. It sucks to see such a superior storyline get bogged down by an inferior one.
The final third of Kang Dynasty is far better. We see the resolution of the story, as well as concepts from before come back to help tie it up. While it fails to address both the impact on civilian life (besides death and imprisonment) and what the other heroes are doing, it does allow the Avengers to take the spotlight. It adds more tragedy to Kang, making him sympathetic (while still a major baddie). We see Cap get mad; Iron Man get reflective; and Thor get lonely. Vision, Wanda, Simon, and Carol all have to deal with their relationships, both past and present. We get see Warbird rise up even further, becoming even more critical to the end of this threat.
Kang Dynasty, despite being uneven at times and penchant for getting side-tracked, is awesome.
In a broader sense, I believe that this story arc is not so much Busiek’s last (although he has one more issue), but it very much marks the end of Old Marvel. As styles and storytelling philosophy shifted in the Quesada/Jemas era, this book stands out like a sore thumb. At the time, it was one of the few Marvel comics to still use thought balloons and captions.
In 2001, Marvel’s new management were out to change the way Marvel’s books were being done. They saw the success of the Ultimate comics and wanted to see that pattern duplicated in their core titles. It’s an era ushered in with JMS on Amazing Spider-Man, Grant Morrison on X-Men, and Garth Ennis on Punisher; and, eventually Mark Waid on Fantastic Four and Bruce Jones on Hulk. Not all of it has been a success and we can debate that until the cow’s come home.
In a lot of ways, though, this story seems to take place before all those changes. Before NuMarvel and the great change over. This is a story – a run – that feels both nostalgic and progressive. Born out of the hot mess that was Heroes Reborn; riddled with history and flashbacks; focused on characters; and finally, ending as a sweep of changes overtake the books around it.
It marks the end of the Old and steps aside for the New.
One more issue to go . . .
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Jan 21, 2013 20:46:52 GMT -5
Good day, all! Sorry for my brief absence, but my computer suffered a bit of a blow and that, plus work, a recently-added new routine, and the regular pressures of being a family of 3.5 and being the only source of in-coming has prevented me from writing a review of Avengers Forever until today! I'm going to be a little more brief than normal, as I don't have a lot of time and would like to continue to read Volume Three as soon as possible. Overall, Avengers Forever is about a team of Avengers hand-selected by Libra and summoned by Rick Jones to protect Rick from the machinations of Immortus. Turns out that the Supreme Intellgience reactivated Rick's latent powers and his connection to the mysterious "destiny force." Immortus seeks to kill Jones, but Kang openly opposes Immortus and aides the eclectic team of Avengers simply because he hates Immortus. Time travel high-jinks, sub-plot resolution, and charcter drama ensue -- and eventually the Avengers are confronted the Time-Keepers, beings who seek to wipe out several timelines because the Avengers (and Rick and his connection to the Destiny Force) go bad. An army of good and evil Avengers war with each other. Rick throws himself into the cannon (or, as I like to call it, the "canon cannon") and saves the day. Immortus is killed but a new Immortus is created by ripping Kang into two. Kang then kills the Time Keepers. The Avengers then return home, the majority of them none the wiser. **** The Pros: - the cast. I loved just how wild and vivid the cast was. Two Hank Pyms? Songbird? The future Captain Marvel? A demoralized Cap? Non-powered, young Hawkeye? Wasp as the leader? This is a very intersting, very unique set of Avengers that help make this stroy so great. I loved the drama and angst associated with these characters and the way they still all united - likewise, I thought Rick Jones was pretty cool in this series. I wish we would see more of his destiny force. Libra and Supremor were neat. Immortus was great. - Kang! Kang stole the show! The chapter that was all about his life was excellent. It would be interesting to see an up-dated version of this, taking into account the Kang Dynasty, Iron Lad, and the recent appearance in Avengers Volume Four. - The Time-Keepers felt like a major threat - as did Immortus. I think Immortus was espcially interesting, having trying to save humanity even as the Time-Keepers worked against him - the art by Carlos Pacheco remains some of my favorite Cons: - the story, as its told, is really convulted and weird. I don't mind a complicated story, but the exposition just seems to make it even more complicated. It's hard to put into a basic premise. Too many characters have too many motivations. Libra, the Supreme Intelligence, Kang, Yellowjacket, Immortus, the Time-Keepers --- all of these characters are manipulators. It becomes bogged down with exposition and with all the different elements running around, Busiek has to almost remind us constantly what the story is about. I'm not saying the story is bad by any means . . . but it's too complicated for its own good. The 50s Avengers and the cowboy adventure could have been removed. Libra felt somewhat unnecessary, as did Supremor. Overall: I'm not exactly pleased with how the story has aged. I don't think it's aged as well as I had hoped. It was a blast reading it 12-13 years ago, but now, it's just a little more messy. But that being said, the characters make the story. I like that we had a lot of sub-plots revealed and we had new wrinkles added into the history of the Avengers. It is possible that we see these wrinkles even today. Note the Civil War occured at the exact same time as Annihilation and preventing Earth's heroes (notably the Avengers) from helping against the forces of the Negative Zone. Plus, in the aftermath of Secret Invasion, the Avengers had to go into hiding because of the rise of Norman Osborne. Could Immortus be behing some of this now? Hmmm. Avengers Forever feels like a bit of a primer in Avengers history. For all its history and characterizations, I can walk away with a feeling of fulfillment. Despite my issues with the plot and the mass of manipulators, Avengers Forever remains a decent read. You just have to take notes. Avengers Forever is one of my favorite all-time stories. Yes, it's incredibly plot-driven, with numerous off-shoots, but I think Busiek deserves a lot of credit for taking seemingly non-connected events with Kang, Immortus, and Rama-Tut and connecting them in a new fashion. The story notes helped out a lot of course. Pacheco's art is fabulous. While the time-displaced Avengers were great, I like Genis and Songbird the best. The legacy aspect of Genis, Songbird's commitment to reform, and the latent feelings Genis had for her. They provided fresh perspectives to this massive story. It also lead to a cool Capt. Marvel title with Peter David. Although I am still waiting for Songbird to become an Avenger and ditch the Thunderbolts.
|
|
|
Post by woodside on Jan 27, 2013 11:25:37 GMT -5
Avengers # 56
Several different Avengers are called in for an audit of a recent mission. Um, that’s all?
***
Compared to the heavy lifting of the past 15ish issues, this one is rather light-hearted and fun. Busiek’s run began with bold images and a big, epic feel that swept in all of the Avengers (past, present, and future) to fight a madwoman who sought to remake reality. It ends, quite simply, with two accountants auditing a recent mission involving a few members and non-members of the team. It’s a cute way to dovetail an amazing run. There’s very little grand-standing here. It’s not very deep and the threat is hardly interesting . . . but that’s kinda the point. This is simply an audit; an understanding of the events of the past in order to deal with the repercussions. At the end of the day, it’s telling of what this entire run has been like.
Busiek has played his stories in line with past ones. Each arc contained at least one flashback. Character subplots from all the way back to Avengers # 1 are built upon. In many ways, Busiek has audited the past 40 years of the Avengers and his results were the past 70 odd issues (including minis and annuals).
“Fudge the details.” I loved it.
In summation, this book is the perfect coda to Busiek’s run, bringing back a sense of fun to the title and to lighten the dramatic load at the Kang Dynasty. Nods to the future (or present) events help make the point I was trying to vocalize earlier – Kurt’s run is the end of the Old Marvel, making way for NuMarvel.
As a whole this run did a great job of righting wrongs, of answering old questions, and bringing characters arcs to new levels. It hasn’t been perfect. Outside of Kang, Count Nefaria, the Kree, and Ultron, the villains have never really lived up to the greatness of the team itself. Moses Magnum? The Triune Understanding? The Exemplers? Bah!
But Busiek gave us the chance to see the history of the Avengers get clarified and we saw characters flourish. With one notable exception, there were very few issues where a guest Avenger would show up and not receive a moment of strong characterization or insight.
I’m still happy with this run, despite its flaws, and I’m very glad I was able to share my thoughts about it with you guys.
|
|
|
Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on Jan 27, 2013 12:20:00 GMT -5
I, in particular, really thank you for your effort, woodside, as I'm no longer in possession of my comic book collection, and you made me remember and relive a lot through your posts, for Busiek's was my favorite Avengers run. Again, thank you very much!
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Jan 29, 2013 21:14:48 GMT -5
Avengers # 56 In summation, this book is the perfect coda to Busiek’s run, bringing back a sense of fun to the title and to lighten the dramatic load at the Kang Dynasty. Nods to the future (or present) events help make the point I was trying to vocalize earlier – Kurt’s run is the end of the Old Marvel, making way for NuMarvel. This is very well-put. And I agree. The aspects of Kang Dynasty that I didn't care for (which I've discussed before, I'm pretty sure) were certainly harbingers for the scale and scope of events to come. . . the NuMarvel, as you say. But it was still Busiek writing with integrity and respect for the characters and for established MU history, and didn't feel like an abandonment of OldMarvel. In retrospect, it was clearly a transitive period. Even with arcs or characters or events that weren't first-rate (and sometimes were stretching for second--!), I always found the book very, very readable. I mean, even when I was thinking, "geeze, this isn't very good"-- it was still somehow keeping me engaged and involved. At that time I couldn't figure out how Busiek/Perez and then Busiek/Davis managed to keep pulling such a magic trick off--! This was a fine thread/project you navigated here, WS-- with a lot of neat tangential discussion resulting. Many thanks for persevering, eh? Much appreciated, believe me. HB
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Feb 15, 2013 18:52:08 GMT -5
Avengers # 10 Before we begin . . . Fellow Jarvis-Heads! Please go into your basement/nerd room/what have you and pull out this issue. Flip through the amazing story and get to the letters page. Don't get distracted by the awesome art, Perez is great, but let's go right to that letters page. Read the second letter. Read the post-script. I saw that and flipped out! YAY! Anywho -- onward with the issue! NYC is celebrating Avengers Days! It's commemorates the founding of the Avengers and their return from the Heroes Reborn universe. The current members, including Giant-Man and Wasp, bask in the moment! We get nice little side POVs with Spider-Man, the X-Men, Daredevil, Bruce Banner, the Fantastic Four, and Daredevil, which adds so much to the story. We also get small references to tiny events, two splash pages of the Avengers and their greatest foes, and - of course - its ends with a big ol battle. The Grim Reaper appears and brings out various zombie Avengers, including Thunderstrike, Swordsman, Mockingbird, Hellcat, Doctor Druid, Captain Marvel . . . and Wonder Man?! SAY WHAT?! These dead Avengers take down the alive Avengers! Meanwhile, Wanda goes to see Agatha Harkness, who she had previously believed was dead. Happy to see the woman alive, Agatha explains Wanda's powers and origins in a new way. She tells Wanda that the demon Chiton formed a connection with Wanda on the day she was born and imbued into her some his own chaotic magic. Wanda has been tapping into his over the years and recently, it was the cause of Simon's reappearance. The only way to bring Simon back is to love him like he loves her. ------------- The Avengers Day material is pretty fun. It's a little odd to see the Avengers being celebrated so passionately after being called fakes just a few issues before hand, but it was good none the less. I loved all the little appearances, from both the heroes and the villains. The zombie Avengers were kinda gruesome and having Simon among them is pretty shocking. I did like that the zombie Avengers brought their baggage back with them and immediately start throwing their issues at the current Avengers. I really enjoyed the Wanda origin and it's very interesting it read in light of certain events. So Wanda was imbued with chaos magic from Chiton? Very interesting. It's worth noting that Wanda's actions during Avengers Disassembled were influenced by an unnamed entity. Could it be that - as of this story - Wanda begins to tap into the chaos magic, that she becomes more and more under the influence of Chiton? It would explain quite a bit -- Chiton could have forced her hand into contacting Doom so to be freed. He/it could have made Wanda destroy the Avengers. Hmmm. I really enjoyed this issue. Lots of neat appearances by other heroes and villains; nods to recent events; a classic Avenger villain in the Grim Reaper; more information on Wanda's background; and a great cliffhanger. Sadly, I do not own the actual issue so who wrote the letter??? However, reading this issue in my TPB, I did notice on the cover, the young woman in the crowd with the Jarvis-Head t-shirt. A possible shout-out to this fine board and site mayhaps? A question about this issue - on the full-page spread that depicts all the former members of the team, I spotted who appears to be Madame Masque. I know some of her history with Stark but where and when did she serve with the team?
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Feb 18, 2013 12:34:23 GMT -5
Avengers # 10 A question about this issue - on the full-page spread that depicts all the former members of the team, I spotted who appears to be Madame Masque. I know some of her history with Stark but where and when did she serve with the team? This was driving me crazy, Marvel Boy, 'cause I remember reading the Madam Masque (or just "Masque", in this instance) pseudo-arc just a couple of years ago-- but I couldn't quite place it in the overall continuity. Couple of searches provided a detailed character history--- but didn't site issue #'s (!!). Soooo-- if memory alone serves, she was little more than a team "associate", in fact, when the Black Widow was in charge right before HEROES REBORN 86'd all on-going continuity and storylines. The title was in unbearably bad shape at that point, though, both art-wise and story-wise, and was awash with forgettable, unpalatable elements. Bug-Jan, Teen Tony, Deadato-channeling-Leifeld, some alien teenager warrior girl-- ugh. It was later resolved that this "Masque" was a rogue LMD or clone or something of the real Madame Masque, and that she had gone to the side of the angels, as it were-- which honestly could be a compelling storyline, if explored properly. Pretty sure she's dead now, though. HB PS (modif): DEATHCRY! That was the alien warrior chick's name. Who went through an unexplained personality transplant aaaaand I think (& this is rather gross), they were setting up a romance between her and a newly clean-shaven, modern-idiom-using, mortal-ified Hercules. You would think it would be impossible for the writers to be clutching at straws whilst flailing in blind panic, and yet. . . HB-again
|
|
|
Post by Marvel Boy on Mar 5, 2013 12:21:21 GMT -5
Ouch, yeah, I had stopped reading the title at that point by then (due to moving to a new city and state mind you, not just because of the stories). The less said about Teen Tony, the better. So a rogue clone or LMD, eh? That would sound like an interesting storyline, given her quasi-romantic ties to Tony. She would make a good choice for a type of villain reformation story. Tie all that in with the old Maggia plots and characters, and that would be even better.
|
|