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Post by woodside on Feb 19, 2012 20:25:15 GMT -5
Do you guys know what issue it was that Wanda remembered that she had non-kids? Thanks!
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Post by canadianavenger on Feb 19, 2012 22:56:47 GMT -5
It's Avengers #503, which is part of the Avengers Disassembled story arc. Janet let's it slip that Wanda had kids, and that's all she needed to hear in order to remember she had kids.
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Post by spiderwasp on Feb 20, 2012 0:42:15 GMT -5
Well now, technically, it happened in Avengers West Coast Annual #7, and I quote "Our Agatha Harkness briefly erased from my mind all memory of my children, to spare me pain. I'm so glad she soon realized that that was a mistake, however much I sorrowed at my loss, for pain is a part of living- Just as much as joy is."
It happened again in Avengers #503 after you-know-who failed to acknowledge that the memory he returned wasn't gone.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 20, 2012 7:54:41 GMT -5
Well now, technically, it happened in Avengers West Coast Annual #7, and I quote "Our Agatha Harkness briefly erased from my mind all memory of my children, to spare me pain. I'm so glad she soon realized that that was a mistake, however much I sorrowed at my loss, for pain is a part of living- Just as much as joy is." It happened again in Avengers #503 after you-know-who failed to acknowledge that the memory he returned wasn't gone. I knew it! I KNEW it!! I knew I had read at some point in the past that Wanda's memory of her kids was intact. I absolutely remember that moment by the pool in issue #503, and Jan's accidental "revelation" making no sense to me at that time. Didn't even understand what the significance was. I mean, obviously I picked up on it pretty quickly thereafter-- but I assumed I had missed some crucial personal development in Wanda's backstory. Good job, SW. I wonder--- wasn't Janet a couple of mai-tai's past her limit in that scene (which I also find appalling). . . and was this also the issue where she and Hawkeye started fooling around? Man, was this even Jan at all?? Wow-- maybe SHE was a Skrull, too-- and THAT'S who got so blithely killed off! Hate to say it, but I would welcome that as a retcon at this point. . . HB
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Post by woodside on Feb 20, 2012 9:54:06 GMT -5
Well now, technically, it happened in Avengers West Coast Annual #7, and I quote "Our Agatha Harkness briefly erased from my mind all memory of my children, to spare me pain. I'm so glad she soon realized that that was a mistake, however much I sorrowed at my loss, for pain is a part of living- Just as much as joy is." It happened again in Avengers #503 after you-know-who failed to acknowledge that the memory he returned wasn't gone. I knew it! I KNEW it!! I knew I had read at some point in the past that Wanda's memory of her kids was intact. I absolutely remember that moment by the pool in issue #503, and Jan's accidental "revelation" making no sense to me at that time. Didn't even understand what the significance was. I mean, obviously I picked up on it pretty quickly thereafter-- but I assumed I had missed some crucial personal development in Wanda's backstory. Good job, SW. I wonder--- wasn't Janet a couple of mai-tai's past her limit in that scene (which I also find appalling). . . and was this also the issue where she and Hawkeye started fooling around? Man, was this even Jan at all?? Wow-- maybe SHE was a Skrull, too-- and THAT'S who got so blithely killed off! Hate to say it, but I would welcome that as a retcon at this point. . . HB Thanks for the answers, everyone! I'll have to track down that issue. As for Jan in Avengers # 503 . . . she was no Skrull, but she was probably suffering from post-Chuck Austen syndrome. I think everyone needed a few drinks after that run.
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Post by sharkar on Feb 20, 2012 16:12:10 GMT -5
I wonder--- wasn't Janet a couple of mai-tai's past her limit in that scene (which I also find appalling). . . and was this also the issue where she and Hawkeye started fooling arounnd? No, their fling started in issue #82, in the arc that immediately preceded Disassembled. Their fling seemed to be over by #84. The Avengers comic then reverted to the original volume 1 numbering, so instead of #85 we got #500 (the first part of Disassembled). Also, a few months prior to Disassembled, in Busiek and Perez's 2003-2004 JLA-Avengers crossover limited series, when various team members are forced to view terrible moments from their pasts, Wanda and Vision see their kids (and react accordingly). There's no mention (as far as I recall) of anyone's memory being erased after this ordeal. Wasn't this series part of regular continuity?
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 20, 2012 17:19:23 GMT -5
I wonder--- wasn't Janet a couple of mai-tai's past her limit in that scene (which I also find appalling). . . and was this also the issue where she and Hawkeye started fooling arounnd? No, their fling started in issue #82, in the arc that immediately preceded Disassembled. Their fling seemed to be over by #84. The Avengers comic then reverted to the original volume 1 numbering, so instead of #85 we got #500 (the first part of Disassembled). Yeesh-- so Jan was actually making a string of very bad life-choices during this period, eh? Well, I suppose there's ample evidence for that in the real world. . . This is an excellent question. I do wonder if there's anyone left at Marvel that this could be put to? Anyone, at least, that's trustworthy & has the knowledge to make that call. Honestly, though, I've never taken those DC/Marvel crossovers as strictly canonical. I'm trying to think if any of them have ever been referred to outside of the crossover stories themselves. They seem to fall into the realm of "Huge Event That Fades From the Participants' Minds Once It's Ended". Just barely this side of a What If-? or an imaginary story. Otherwise, man-- what an even MORE complicated mess the Omniverse becomes! HB
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Post by woodside on Feb 20, 2012 18:40:09 GMT -5
This is an excellent question. I do wonder if there's anyone left at Marvel that this could be put to? Anyone, at least, that's trustworthy & has the knowledge to make that call. Honestly, though, I've never taken those DC/Marvel crossovers as strictly canonical. I'm trying to think if any of them have ever been referred to outside of the crossover stories themselves. They seem to fall into the realm of "Huge Event That Fades From the Participants' Minds Once It's Ended". Just barely this side of a What If-? or an imaginary story. Otherwise, man-- what an even MORE complicated mess the Omniverse becomes! HB I believe it is canonical, at least on the DC side of things. Busiek followed up on the cosmic egg thing in JLA a few months later. In retrospect, I know that the early Marvel/DC crossovers (the two Superman/Spider-Man special, Hulk/Batman, X-Men/Teen Titans) take place in the old, shared Marvel/DC universe that was subsequently destroyed and split. We see the split off in X-Men Adventures # 12 and is detailed in the Marvel vs DC crossover. The majority of the 90s crossovers fall under the circumstance you mentioned -- "fades from memory over time." Which is convenient! You could even make the claim that this is done by Access. We know that he is supposed to go down a "darker" path and perhaps his way of preventing future crossovers (and abuse of his power) is by erasing the memories of those involved. In reference to JLA/Avengers, one could make the argument that Wanda re-watching of the fate of her children caused her to block the whole thing out again -- perhaps even reactivating the magical memory blocks that Agatha put in there in the first place. Since she obviously "forgot" about the twins as of Avengers 500ish, and we need an explanation for it, this is as good as any. Obviously, this all just theoretical and I'm just pulling it out of the air and making observations on unrelated stuff.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 20, 2012 20:28:21 GMT -5
This is an excellent question. I do wonder if there's anyone left at Marvel that this could be put to? Anyone, at least, that's trustworthy & has the knowledge to make that call. Honestly, though, I've never taken those DC/Marvel crossovers as strictly canonical. I'm trying to think if any of them have ever been referred to outside of the crossover stories themselves. They seem to fall into the realm of "Huge Event That Fades From the Participants' Minds Once It's Ended". Just barely this side of a What If-? or an imaginary story. Otherwise, man-- what an even MORE complicated mess the Omniverse becomes! HB I believe it is canonical, at least on the DC side of things. Busiek followed up on the cosmic egg thing in JLA a few months later. In retrospect, I know that the early Marvel/DC crossovers (the two Superman/Spider-Man special, Hulk/Batman, X-Men/Teen Titans) take place in the old, shared Marvel/DC universe that was subsequently destroyed and split. We see the split off in X-Men Adventures # 12 and is detailed in the Marvel vs DC crossover. The majority of the 90s crossovers fall under the circumstance you mentioned -- "fades from memory over time." Which is convenient! You could even make the claim that this is done by Access. We know that he is supposed to go down a "darker" path and perhaps his way of preventing future crossovers (and abuse of his power) is by erasing the memories of those involved. In reference to JLA/Avengers, one could make the argument that Wanda re-watching of the fate of her children caused her to block the whole thing out again -- perhaps even reactivating the magical memory blocks that Agatha put in there in the first place. Since she obviously "forgot" about the twins as of Avengers 500ish, and we need an explanation for it, this is as good as any. Obviously, this all just theoretical and I'm just pulling it out of the air and making observations on unrelated stuff. You inspired me to go look up who ACCESS is/was. He's sort of the connector character that indeed gave some sort of in-continuity plausability to any crossover stories, yes? Including the Amalgam Comics specials, which I'd completely forgotten about. Boy, I'll just bet he's been rendered superfluous by DC-- 'cause they've re-booted their reality again, it looks like-- and moot by Marvel, 'cause heck, they've so completely lost interest in their own in-house continuity that I can't imagine justifying crossover continuity is even remotely a shadow of a priority anymore. Sure it's a little forced, a little hokey, a bit of a stretch to say the least-- but I absolutely applaud and appreciate the commitment to integrity that it represents. "This happened in our universe, and here's how we've set it up and justified it." Hey, nice to have you poppin' up again, WS! HB
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Post by woodside on Feb 20, 2012 23:24:39 GMT -5
You inspired me to go look up who ACCESS is/was. He's sort of the connector character that indeed gave some sort of in-continuity plausability to any crossover stories, yes? Including the Amalgam Comics specials, which I'd completely forgotten about. Boy, I'll just bet he's been rendered superfluous by DC-- 'cause they've re-booted their reality again, it looks like-- and moot by Marvel, 'cause heck, they've so completely lost interest in their own in-house continuity that I can't imagine justifying crossover continuity is even remotely a shadow of a priority anymore. Sure it's a little forced, a little hokey, a bit of a stretch to say the least-- but I absolutely applaud and appreciate the commitment to integrity that it represents. "This happened in our universe, and here's how we've set it up and justified it." Hey, nice to have you poppin' up again, WS! HB Thanks HB! Gotta challenge you on the continuity comment, though. I would say that there are certain writers that ignore the history and skip certain parts of the past MU, BUT post-2004/2005 MU continuity has been very tight and consistent within itself. Pre-2004/2005 is a little less certain, but stories told within the past 7-8 years have been pretty tight with each other. As for Access, I absolutely loved this character when I was younger. I thought he was really cool and believed he had a TON of potential. Personally, I like to think he's slipped into the cracks of the Marvel and DC universes and continues to strengthen the barrier between them. Maybe the post-Flashpoint timeline has removed him completely from the multi-omniverse, as the new merged timeline has erased even the events of Marvel vs DC and all previous Marvel/DC crossovers ever. Or I'm thinking about it all too much.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 21, 2012 19:31:03 GMT -5
You inspired me to go look up who ACCESS is/was. He's sort of the connector character that indeed gave some sort of in-continuity plausability to any crossover stories, yes? Including the Amalgam Comics specials, which I'd completely forgotten about. Boy, I'll just bet he's been rendered superfluous by DC-- 'cause they've re-booted their reality again, it looks like-- and moot by Marvel, 'cause heck, they've so completely lost interest in their own in-house continuity that I can't imagine justifying crossover continuity is even remotely a shadow of a priority anymore. Sure it's a little forced, a little hokey, a bit of a stretch to say the least-- but I absolutely applaud and appreciate the commitment to integrity that it represents. "This happened in our universe, and here's how we've set it up and justified it." Hey, nice to have you poppin' up again, WS! HB Thanks HB! Gotta challenge you on the continuity comment, though. I would say that there are certain writers that ignore the history and skip certain parts of the past MU, BUT post-2004/2005 MU continuity has been very tight and consistent within itself. Pre-2004/2005 is a little less certain, but stories told within the past 7-8 years have been pretty tight with each other. As for Access, I absolutely loved this character when I was younger. I thought he was really cool and believed he had a TON of potential. Personally, I like to think he's slipped into the cracks of the Marvel and DC universes and continues to strengthen the barrier between them. Maybe the post-Flashpoint timeline has removed him completely from the multi-omniverse, as the new merged timeline has erased even the events of Marvel vs DC and all previous Marvel/DC crossovers ever. Or I'm thinking about it all too much. Wellllllll, I suppose it is possible to let all of this stuff take up more than its fair share personally analysis and scrutiny. ;D As far as the continuity question goes, you actually did sum up what my problem is-- it's just that for you, it's not particularly a problem. Which is perfectly fair, as you've been enjoying the current era for the most part, and I daresay can speak with more authority about its internal continuity than I can. I'll buy that assurance from you, heck yes. But you nailed the fact that pre-2003-ish continuity seems to have become expendable, as it were. And the continuity and deep in-universe history is what's always made Marvel particularly special to me. Granted, I'm a stodgy, old traditionalist, and times are bound to change-- but I find myself loathe to let that go without at least mentioning that it makes me unhappy. And yet. . . I do recognize the reality that 50-plus years of storytelling are at this point supposedly being compressed into, what?, 10 or 12 or 15 years of "Marvel Time"-? Man, that is without a doubt an enormous logistical nightmare for any writer to find himself in. How do you jump in? What can you do with (or to) a character who's been twisted every which way by dozens of previous creators? Giving a book a "Fresh Start" or a "New Beginning" is even itself a hackneyed, tired cliche'-- sheesh, how many times has that happened in the Hulk over the decades? Gosh-- I have mutually exclusive desires in play. Never a good sign. . . HB
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