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Post by freedomfighter on May 31, 2011 13:44:48 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong. I know how it happened. It just doesn't make any sense. Look, Goliath (who I think was a WCA reservist during Englehart's run) was killed by the Thor clone in the piece of nonsense that was Civil War #4. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Goliathdeath.PNGOk, I suppose that explains it, except... ...that's not how lightning works no really, do hundreds of people each year go to emergency rooms because lightning blew a big ol' hole in their chest? Nope. Lightning doesn't kill that way. Read this page for example to see the effects of lightning. www.harkphoto.com/light.htmlI couldn't find "blows a big hole in ya" anywhere. But Thor and his hammer have special lightning, right? Maybe (but usually Thor says it's something like cosmic energy or anti-force when he shoots stuff directly from his hammer in a ray like fashion) but not the clone Thor. His hammer wasn't even Mjolnir, it was a prop made by Reed Richards. Why would Reed Richards put a lightning-like laser blaster in a hammer? Real lightning, which the fake hammer seemed to attract, is very good at hurting people and things. And I contend that making the hammer do strange things that make no sense defeats the purpose of trying to dupe people. A true friend of Thor's might notice that the hammer is coming off wonky. I suppose I could chalk it up to artistic license, but it's really dumb, it's like shooting someone and saying they died of strangulation. It leads me to two conclusions: One, Mark Millar just didn't pay any attention and threw stuff out there for shock value. or Two, Millar was actually pretty sneaky and threw in an impossible death that shouldn't have happened. And maybe Goliath died because he wasn't whole to begin with which is why the lightning sundered his atoms instead of just frying him. After all hadn't there been two Yellowjackets at one point? When Hank's split psyche manifested two less substantial version of himself thanks to the Pym particles? Who's to say that didn't happen to Foster as well? I dunno. But I do know the death scene in CW#4 makes no sense... |
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Post by humanbelly on May 31, 2011 16:23:16 GMT -5
Hmm. Weaker cases certainly have been made where, nevertheless, a seemingly bonifide death has been, er, overturned. It's usually villains, granted, but the point is still sound.
And Wikipedia's entry wastes no effort in pointing out that Bill's continuity is wildly inconsistent and riddled with paradox and loose ends.
And I'd really like to see him come back. Always had a warm spot in my heart. Liked his costume, too-- it was just unapologetically "superhero-y". Heh.
HB
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Post by freedomfighter on May 31, 2011 23:43:34 GMT -5
Hmm. Weaker cases certainly have been made where, nevertheless, a seemingly bonifide death has been, er, overturned. It's usually villains, granted, but the point is still sound. And Wikipedia's entry wastes no effort in pointing out that Bill's continuity is wildly inconsistent and riddled with paradox and loose ends. And I'd really like to see him come back. Always had a warm spot in my heart. Liked his costume, too-- it was just unapologetically "superhero-y". Heh. HB Weaker cases? You mean like the fact that thanks to Doom's Time Machine, Cap himself saw the moment when Bucky was blown up and said there was no way he could've survived? ;D And if that wasn't enough for you, how about the fact that Erik Josten once grew so big, his atoms came apart completely and then came together again in the Kosmos universe? True he had a mix of ionic rays and Pym particles, but it was the Pym juice that made him pop up there. What if your original mass is sent off into this alternate dimension and replaced with the Pym particle duplicate? That would explain why giant sized characters aren't crushed by their own weight- the weight isn't accurate- it's a manifestation that observes its own quantum mechanics. Plus if we start hypothesizing on the effects of Pym Particles and their ability to shunt the original mass somewhere else, then in theory Scott Lang, Jan and Bill might all be off together in some subatomic world fighting the good fight and not dead thanks to some hokey and sensational storytelling from Bendis and Millar. |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 1, 2011 6:55:30 GMT -5
[ Weaker cases? You mean like the fact that thanks to Doom's Time Machine, Cap himself saw the moment when Bucky was blown up and said there was no way he could've survived? ;D Or Puppet Master. . . who was "DEAD"-dead, y'know? Then his disembodied essence was transferred into some of his radioactive clay. . . then he was dead again. . . and then he was somehow returned to flesh by the Sphinx?? (Pulling some of this from Wikipedia) Or Wonder Man, even. Not that I don't buy into the ionic transformation explanation. . . but. . . wasn't he on at least a couple of earlier "from beyond the grave"-type teams of adversaries in the meantime? Or, heck, Jean Grey's resurrection so they could re-form the team as X-Factor. To me, it really was barely this side of, "It was only just a dream" or "It was all a mass hallucination". Or the Leader, who has died unpleasantly almost every 2nd time he appears-- to the point where the writers don't even bother trying to make plausible explanations anymore. . . But. . . I'm ultimately glad those characters are still around (well, except Jean's dead again, isn't she?), so the ol' disbelief keeps suspendin'. Wow, you're right. We have three dead size-changers in the wings. I had not realized that. And all three killed more or less in the same years-long spree (w/ Scott being lost right at the outset). And all of them truly pointless--- just a sensationalistic body-count. Really, your scenario works just fine for me. If recent events in the Hulk's domain hadn't put Jarella's planet Kai in the foreground, the three of them certainly could have ended up there. That would actually have been a plausible and credible nod to established continuity. Hmmmmmm. . . . I read Civil War #4 on Marvel's site last night. It was a bit of a revelation on several fronts. My biggest problem is that Reed had gone past the point of no return-- and I'm not aware of any lasting consequences at this point. He cloned/created a person (Thor-clone) to do his bidding, and the creature was flawed. The creature kills someone unnecessarily. Reed feels bad, and dispassionately kills the creature-- which is itself a sentient person, regardless of its origins and transgressions. Reed is the guy who saved Galactus once, right? He & Tony & Hank all seemed very upset about Bill Foster's death. . . and yet it didn't sway them or give them reasonable pause in the legitimacy of their mission? Well, maybe it did later. Obviously, I wasn't reading the daggone thing. Ugh. Old wounds, at this point. . . HB |
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 1, 2011 21:19:52 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that it was established during George Perez's Giant Man miniseries that Josten as Goliath opened a two way hyper-spatial rift between earth and a Kosmosian Prison World. That Kosmosian Prison World is where mass is stored and drawn from by Pym particles. So that Prison World could be the place...
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 2, 2011 19:38:52 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that it was established during George Perez's Giant Man miniseries that Josten as Goliath opened a two way hyper-spatial rift between earth and a Kosmosian Prison World. That Kosmosian Prison World is where mass is stored and drawn from by Pym particles. So that Prison World could be the place... Pfft-- right. Sold. I'll take it. I'm in. I am ON BOARD! This is still faaaaaar more plausible and palatable (and supported by existing MU pseudo-pscience, more or less) than the extreme contortions of gullibility we had to endure to get back Ben Grimm, or Hawkeye, or Puppet Master after their demises. . . ! HB |
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 2, 2011 22:54:04 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that it was established during George Perez's Giant Man miniseries that Josten as Goliath opened a two way hyper-spatial rift between earth and a Kosmosian Prison World. That Kosmosian Prison World is where mass is stored and drawn from by Pym particles. So that Prison World could be the place... Pfft-- right. Sold. I'll take it. I'm in. I am ON BOARD! This is still faaaaaar more plausible and palatable (and supported by existing MU pseudo-pscience, more or less) than the extreme contortions of gullibility we had to endure to get back Ben Grimm, or Hawkeye, or Puppet Master after their demises. . . ! HB Which Ben Grimm revival are you referring to? I have to say I liked the Mark Waid one where they had to go to Heaven. It really fit the FF (they'll go ANYWHERE...) and he did the storyline right after Ben was killed so it wasn't dragged out and it was hardly the event they made of Johnny Storm's recent 'death' (cough cough...) |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 3, 2011 8:23:10 GMT -5
Pfft-- right. Sold. I'll take it. I'm in. I am ON BOARD! This is still faaaaaar more plausible and palatable (and supported by existing MU pseudo-pscience, more or less) than the extreme contortions of gullibility we had to endure to get back Ben Grimm, or Hawkeye, or Puppet Master after their demises. . . ! HB Which Ben Grimm revival are you referring to? I have to say I liked the Mark Waid one where they had to go to Heaven. It really fit the FF (they'll go ANYWHERE...) and he did the storyline right after Ben was killed so it wasn't dragged out and it was hardly the event they made of Johnny Storm's recent 'death' (cough cough...) Ha! Yep, that's exactly the one I was thinking of. I think it was referred to around here again recently, in fact--- with Jack Kirby being the "Creator" and all. But, nope, I didn't care for the idea of it at all-- although it certainly wasn't badly executed. And I did appreciate that they didn't turn it into a big Mega-Event, etc. But it really pushed the outer boundaries of acceptable continuity for me, and sets an absolutely ridiculous precedent for how far Reed's abilities can take him. Granted, I'd have to read it again, but-- what now prevents Reed from going and fetching Johnny? Or anyone, for that matter? Does Reed (or Ben) even remember that this event took place? And, honestly, it was simply too easy for Reed to track Ben's "soul" to the great hereafter via scientific methods. Some barriers are better off never crossed, because once they are. . . then what? AND YET, as I said, I still prefer it to having somebody kill Ben off on a whim, and being stuck with his loss. I do feel it would be better to take any deaths right off of the editorial table unless a solid, SOLID case can be made for it from a long-term character/storyline/MU perspective. (Like Egghead's, f'rinstance-- I believe he's still gone, yes? And we're well rid of him after the damage he did to Hank Pym and, earlier, to Hawkeye.). Welp, there's the ol' Morning Opinion-! HB |
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 3, 2011 9:57:33 GMT -5
Which Ben Grimm revival are you referring to? I have to say I liked the Mark Waid one where they had to go to Heaven. It really fit the FF (they'll go ANYWHERE...) and he did the storyline right after Ben was killed so it wasn't dragged out and it was hardly the event they made of Johnny Storm's recent 'death' (cough cough...) Ha! Yep, that's exactly the one I was thinking of. I think it was referred to around here again recently, in fact--- with Jack Kirby being the "Creator" and all. But, nope, I didn't care for the idea of it at all-- although it certainly wasn't badly executed. And I did appreciate that they didn't turn it into a big Mega-Event, etc. But it really pushed the outer boundaries of acceptable continuity for me, and sets an absolutely ridiculous precedent for how far Reed's abilities can take him. Granted, I'd have to read it again, but-- what now prevents Reed from going and fetching Johnny? Or anyone, for that matter? Does Reed (or Ben) even remember that this event took place? And, honestly, it was simply too easy for Reed to track Ben's "soul" to the great hereafter via scientific methods. Some barriers are better off never crossed, because once they are. . . then what? AND YET, as I said, I still prefer it to having somebody kill Ben off on a whim, and being stuck with his loss. I do feel it would be better to take any deaths right off of the editorial table unless a solid, SOLID case can be made for it from a long-term character/storyline/MU perspective. (Like Egghead's, f'rinstance-- I believe he's still gone, yes? And we're well rid of him after the damage he did to Hank Pym and, earlier, to Hawkeye.). Welp, there's the ol' Morning Opinion-! HB Well in fairness the story actually used long established FF canon. Reed just didn't invent a machine- he was actually using the one that Doom created to look for his mother in Hell (and as Reed pointed out- "is that the first place you'd look for your mother?"). So the machine that can take you to Heaven has been around since Doom's origin. Ben wasn't completely "dead"- he was on an extreme version of life support, fanning a very small spark that was still inside him. So it wasn't a full resurrection- it was bringing a soul back to a living body. And the details of heaven were a bit too overwhelming for them to keep as I recall so they don't have knowledge of what exactly transpired (this I could be wrong about, but it's what I recall). As for going back, God said no. He thought it was clever, but he wouldn't leave the same loophole open again. For me the story had a lot of heart and I can forgive the appearance of God because it's no more impossible than the Cosmic Cube, Beyonder, Celestials, Eternity etc... We've already opened the near omnipotent can of worms a hundred times, might as well go all out. But yes, I do think you're right about deaths in comics. For big characters they mean little, if not nothing, because revival is always going to happen at some point. I find that dealing with death and loss for main characters is far more intriguing than having them die. Emotional resonance and the depth it gives characters is much more worthy a way of using death as a storytelling tool. An exalt for you and your always insightful comments. |
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 5, 2011 5:43:17 GMT -5
Ha! Yep, that's exactly the one I was thinking of. I think it was referred to around here again recently, in fact--- with Jack Kirby being the "Creator" and all. But, nope, I didn't care for the idea of it at all-- although it certainly wasn't badly executed. And I did appreciate that they didn't turn it into a big Mega-Event, etc. But it really pushed the outer boundaries of acceptable continuity for me, and sets an absolutely ridiculous precedent for how far Reed's abilities can take him. Granted, I'd have to read it again, but-- what now prevents Reed from going and fetching Johnny? Or anyone, for that matter? Does Reed (or Ben) even remember that this event took place? And, honestly, it was simply too easy for Reed to track Ben's "soul" to the great hereafter via scientific methods. Some barriers are better off never crossed, because once they are. . . then what? AND YET, as I said, I still prefer it to having somebody kill Ben off on a whim, and being stuck with his loss. I do feel it would be better to take any deaths right off of the editorial table unless a solid, SOLID case can be made for it from a long-term character/storyline/MU perspective. HB Well in fairness the story actually used long established FF canon. Reed just didn't invent a machine- he was actually using the one that Doom created to look for his mother in Hell (and as Reed pointed out- "is that the first place you'd look for your mother?"). So the machine that can take you to Heaven has been around since Doom's origin. Ben wasn't completely "dead"- he was on an extreme version of life support, fanning a very small spark that was still inside him. So it wasn't a full resurrection- it was bringing a soul back to a living body. And the details of heaven were a bit too overwhelming for them to keep as I recall so they don't have knowledge of what exactly transpired (this I could be wrong about, but it's what I recall). As for going back, God said no. He thought it was clever, but he wouldn't leave the same loophole open again. For me the story had a lot of heart and I can forgive the appearance of God because it's no more impossible than the Cosmic Cube, Beyonder, Celestials, Eternity etc... We've already opened the near omnipotent can of worms a hundred times, might as well go all out. . Thanks much, FF-- you directly answered some of those questions I had about elements that I wasn't recalling clearly. And you're right, credit is due to Waid for doing his research and finding enough precedent in the MU to satisfy continuity plausibility-- I'd forgotten much of that, myself. He certainly took impressive steps to successfully minimize the almost-unavoidable "hokiness"-factor that a story like this would be susceptible to. I mean, in 1963 Stan would have just had Reed whip out an experimental, transistor-powered, atomic soul-energy detecting ray that he "happened to be working on" about two panels after Ben's apparent demise. It would have some unforeseen effect- like creating a portal to the afterlife, f'rinstance. And the three of them would immediately hop right through it w/out any idea of what was on the other side. "Because it's the only chance we'll ever have to save our friend!" And yep, Waid did an admirable job of constructing his story and setting up the supporting details so it avoided this kind of groaning contrivance. Is my problem one of . . . scope, perhaps? Is that the right word? Even the hugely powerful, ancient, cosmic-and-beyond entities that you refer to (Celestials, Eternity, Beyonder, Cosmic Cube-- and I'm sure there are a few others) seem to acknowledge that they aren't the ultimate, highest power in the universe/multiverse (whooo! The multiverse! That whole concept adds a whole new wrinkle to a discussion like this, eh? Since it's also established that there's a governing body over THAT as well!). I've always thought it was best to just leave it that way, since by staying completely undefined, that Being or Non-being's tent can literally include the belief-system of every reader out there. Plus it doesn't draw a line in the sand of here's-the-final-ultimate-power-creator-of-the-universe that some OTHER writer will EVENTUALLY be tempted to trump with THEIR even MORE powerful "creator of the universe" razza-razza-razza-- Actually, though, I'm pleased that that hasn't come about since then. Maybe that whole event kinda fell below the radar for a lot of Marvel's creative staff? HB |
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