Hawkeye and the Wasp. What??

[owene]

Not sure this is really worth bringing up but I was reading the latest Academy (very good, but then I'm a big LSH fan and between McKone's designs and the age of the leads it reads a lot like it) and Hank mentioned Jan leaving him for Hawkeye.

When the hell did that happen? Was it as bad as it sounds?

[starfoxxx]

Yeah, the way I remember it , Jan and TONY had a fling around the time she and Hank were having "problems"......and she hooked up with Clint in Volume 2, some time after Busiek was replaced as writer....

so, yeah, that quote was weird......but I wonder what Hank's memories ARE....when was he himself, and when was he a Skrull......when exactly was he "replaced"...thanks for the confusion, Bendis.

[Shiryu]

It was during Austen's run, wasn't it? I think that was by far the worst Avengers run ever, even worse than Bendis'
But as far as I can remember, she didn't break up with him for Clint. She was sleeping with Clint while arguing with Hank and bringing up the slap story again.

[owene]

That all sounds pretty dire. I guess Austen came after Busiek but before Bendis?
I just about remember his name from when i was reading before but i dont think i ever read anything by him

I know she's dead now but was Jan around until fairly recently? Was she active in the books at all? she doesn't really seem to fit what i imagined bendis' style to be like but I guess there was more than one book and more than one creative team.

[Shiryu]

I think it was after Johns, which in turn was after Busiek. Thankfully it was a very short run, just before Disassembled.

I can't remember if Jan was in Bendis' "Mighty Avengers", but otherwise I only remember her from Civil War where she was part of the pro-registration side. She certainly wasn't in New Avengers.

[spiderwasp]

Nov 14, 2010 16:46:34 GMT -5 Shiryu said:

I can't remember if Jan was in Bendis' "Mighty Avengers", but otherwise I only remember her from Civil War where she was part of the pro-registration side. She certainly wasn't in New Avengers.

She was a part of Mighty Avengers but she was mostly portrayed as a horny drunk. Typical Bendis recharacterization. It was in this book that Skrull-Hank gave her a potion to give her the power to grow as well as shrink. She fell for it hook line and sinker even though she already had that power. It was established in the notorious Austin run I think (Or Johns). It was right before Bendis.

[Shiryu]

I think it was at the very end of Johns' run, in the infamous "sex scene" issue.

[humanbelly]

Well, Jan definitely didn't "leave" Hank for Hawkeye, it was clearly a spur-of-the-moment fling, which, if I recall, Hawkeye was extremely uncomfortable with. Shiryu's right on the money. Seems like it was right after we picked up Lionheart, and as we were going into that awful, long-and-yet-stagnant Dell Rusk arc at Mount Rushmore. Or possibly in those very, very last issues before Disassembled took hold.

S-Foxxx's question, though, is a key one here: When was Hank abducted and replaced? I've READ all of the flippin' Mighty Avengers & New Avengers runs, and even though there was a specific issue dealing with the trouble they had keeping the Pym replacements on task, I don't recall it ever being nailed down as to when exactly they took him out. This is crucial to several relationships here, as one Pym or another was carrying on a pretty lusty fling w/ Tigra, as well, and that seems to not have occurred, as far as Avengers Academy is concerned. And what about Hank's relationship w/ Hawkeye? It's among the oldest ones on the team between non-"stars", as it were.

But the Hawkeye/Jan coupling had all of the stupid, shortsighted earmarks of an immature writer going, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had so & so get it on? Nobody'd ever expect it! It would be freakin' AWESOME!!"
No, Jan's no chaste saint or anything (having clearly been with, over the years and in various circumstances- and of her own free will- Tony Stark, Palladin, and Magneto, as well as her husband, of course.), but she's also not stupid nor that ridiculously impulsive and enslaved to her hormones. Ugh-- it made the atmosphere of the book even uglier and more tawdry than it had already become. . .

HB

[starfoxxx]

Yes, I wish the Hank-Skrull-replacement situation would be nailed to a specific time/event.....so as to see which "Hank" did what.

But I'm pretty sure Tigra KNOWS that it was the Skrull replacement Pym who impregnated her. And I'm waiting for Tigra's "baby" situation to be addressed in Avengers Academy, hopefully.

Also, HB, I'm glad you remember Jan hooking up with Paladin.....I was just thinking about that recently.

But Hank's quote in Academy still seems strange.....I wonder if Gage has an explanation, or was just confused.

[Shiryu]

He might have heard of it, I don't think it was kept exactly secret when it happened.
Talking of Wasp and Paladin, did they really hook up? I remember a lot of flirting, but did anything, even a fling or a one night stand, come out of it?

[humanbelly]

Great Galloping Garbonzos. . . I had no idea whatsoever that Tigra was (is??) pregnant!! None at all!! How in the world can I have been following all of these flippin' titles, and not known that?? So. . . I'm assuming this is something that happened in Initiative, or thereabouts? Geeze, I struggled through the runs of BOTH New Avengers and Mighty Avengers, and never picked this fact up at all.

And from a Skrull yet? Y'know, last time I checked, mammals and reptiles had just about as much a chance of cross-breeding as mammals and pine trees. But that's a quibble for another time, I suppose.

So wait, what was the result? Did she have a baby? Did she lay a clutch of eggs that then hatched into a litter of kittens? Hmm-- did she possibly have an abortion? That could have tremendously powerful potential as a storyline-- I'm not sure we've ever seen that topic explored in the Marvel Universe (although there's much that I don't follow, granted). Man, it would just have to be devestating for her to be around Hank right now-- kind of hard to believe she'd be able to handle it.

Oh hey, Jan & Palladin-- it really is probably one of those cases where a reader can "draw his/her own conclusions", as it were. It was at a time when Marvel still was only comfortable in hinting at that kind of relationship (except for Crystal-- sheesh). But if I'm remembering the circumstances correctly, the environment was one where a casual liasson would almost be a given. And I think there were at least two ocassions where this was the case. It was very much like a James Bond film, or something with Cary Grant (circa NORTH BY NORTHWEST). It's funny, 'cause I remember thinking "good for you, Jan", rather than, "how could you be so trashy??"-- which is what the Hawkeye episode instantly fostered in me.

HB

[starfoxxx]

I believe the Paladin/Jan romance was his appearance in Avengers #251.
And Paladin's Marvel Universe character bio calls him a "womanizer". wow.
He showed up before the Mansion Seige, too, but I doubt there was any time for hanky-panky, at that point.

And TIGRA's Wikipedia page actually has a pretty good recap of her pregnancy/baby situation.
I'm pretty sure she knows it wasn't the REAL Hank Pym. Apparently she dumped the kid off with the CAT PEOPLE, wherever they are.

[sharkar]

I liked the Jan-Paladin romance/fling; they clearly enjoyed each others' company and sure seemed to be having a lot of fun. I also love that at the time she was involved with Paladin (which seemed to be an on again-off again, no strings attached kind of relationship), she was oblivious to the charms of the handsome, intelligent Black Knight, who had a hopeless crush on her. Who can forget Dane being so smitten with her and jealous of Paladin, that he walked straight into the Masters of Evil's clutches? Guess even in comics nice guys don't get the girl! ;D

And poor Dane, he would later try to hook up with another unavailable woman, Crystal (and we all know how that ended up...)

[humanbelly]

Nov 16, 2010 16:06:00 GMT -5 starfoxxx said:

And TIGRA's Wikipedia page actually has a pretty good recap of her pregnancy/baby situation.
I'm pretty sure she knows it wasn't the REAL Hank Pym. Apparently she dumped the kid off with the CAT PEOPLE, wherever they are.

That was a most helpful suggestion, s-fox, thanks much.
Boy, what a rough series of events for poor Tigra. And leaving her baby to be raised by the Cat People? I don't know-- I think the more compelling story is if Tigra's circumstances are such that she needs to raise her child herself. Perhaps at Pym's Infinite Avengers Mansion? Thing is, as I've often sounded off about in the past here, I firmly believe that a superhero parent (especially a single one, like Tigra) has a greater obligation to their child than they do to society as a whole, and should take themselves out of active duty or participation. Reed & Sue's surreal household charade drives me banana-boats.

And I'm darned sure that's why Peter & MJ's baby was more or less "cancelled" 10 or 12 years ago. 'Cause there's 'way too strong a case to be made that Pete would unequivocably hang up his webs once that little life came and altered the power/responsibility equation.

HB

[humanbelly]

Nov 16, 2010 19:22:45 GMT -5 sharkar said:

I liked the Jan-Paladin romance/fling; they clearly enjoyed each others' company and sure seemed to be having a lot of fun. I also love that at the time she was involved with Paladin (which seemed to be an on again-off again, no strings attached kind of relationship), she was oblivious to the charms of the handsome, intelligent Black Knight, who had a hopeless crush on her. Who can forget Dane being so smitten with her and jealous of Paladin, that he walked straight into the Masters of Evil's clutches? Guess even in comics nice guys don't get the girl! ;D

And poor Dane, he would later try to hook up with another unavailable woman, Crystal (and we all know how that ended up...)

Is there anything in real society that's analogous to how the Avengers operate? Some parallel institution that works as a model? And is it as fraught with soap opera? It's kind of hard to come up with something. They're sort of like a co-ed militia or law-enforcement body; they're sort of like a sports team; sort of like a theatrical touring company (of all things-- although that's what the soap-opera elements most closely resemble to me); sort of like an exclusive club of celebrity movie-stars; sort of like a crack squad of hardcore fire-fighters. . .

Heck, I worked in a factory once where all of the shifting interpersonal drama was very, very much like what we've read in these pages over the years. . .

HB

[Doctor Bong]

Nov 17, 2010 12:43:42 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Nov 16, 2010 19:22:45 GMT -5 sharkar said:

I liked the Jan-Paladin romance/fling; they clearly enjoyed each others' company and sure seemed to be having a lot of fun. I also love that at the time she was involved with Paladin (which seemed to be an on again-off again, no strings attached kind of relationship), she was oblivious to the charms of the handsome, intelligent Black Knight, who had a hopeless crush on her. Who can forget Dane being so smitten with her and jealous of Paladin, that he walked straight into the Masters of Evil's clutches? Guess even in comics nice guys don't get the girl! ;D

And poor Dane, he would later try to hook up with another unavailable woman, Crystal (and we all know how that ended up...)

Is there anything in real society that's analogous to how the Avengers operate? Some parallel institution that works as a model? And is it as fraught with soap opera? It's kind of hard to come up with something. They're sort of like a co-ed militia or law-enforcement body; they're sort of like a sports team; sort of like a theatrical touring company (of all things-- although that's what the soap-opera elements most closely resemble to me); sort of like an exclusive club of celebrity movie-stars; sort of like a crack squad of hardcore fire-fighters. . .

Heck, I worked in a factory once where all of the shifting interpersonal drama was very, very much like what we've read in these pages over the years. . .

HB

Me too, HB. But, sadly, we never got to save the world... not even once...!

[Doctor Bong]

Nov 17, 2010 12:30:19 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Nov 16, 2010 16:06:00 GMT -5 starfoxxx said:

And TIGRA's Wikipedia page actually has a pretty good recap of her pregnancy/baby situation.
I'm pretty sure she knows it wasn't the REAL Hank Pym. Apparently she dumped the kid off with the CAT PEOPLE, wherever they are.

That was a most helpful suggestion, s-fox, thanks much.
Boy, what a rough series of events for poor Tigra. And leaving her baby to be raised by the Cat People? I don't know-- I think the more compelling story is if Tigra's circumstances are such that she needs to raise her child herself. Perhaps at Pym's Infinite Avengers Mansion? Thing is, as I've often sounded off about in the past here, I firmly believe that a superhero parent (especially a single one, like Tigra) has a greater obligation to their child than they do to society as a whole, and should take themselves out of active duty or participation. Reed & Sue's surreal household charade drives me banana-boats.

And I'm darned sure that's why Peter & MJ's baby was more or less "cancelled" 10 or 12 years ago. 'Cause there's 'way too strong a case to be made that Pete would unequivocably hang up his webs once that little life came and altered the power/responsibility equation.

HB

Your opinion is sound, of course, HB. Except... hmm, it could be argued that, within the internal logic of the MU, it might make sense for Sue, Reed, Crystal and all the other parents to continue to fight the forces of Evil since the FF and the Avengers have been quite often all that stood in the way of the world's destruction. And: no world= no children either.
I'm not claiming this line of reasoning is without flaws, but I think a case can be made out of it.

[humanbelly]

Nov 18, 2010 3:53:11 GMT -5 Doctor Bong said:

Nov 17, 2010 12:30:19 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

That was a most helpful suggestion, s-fox, thanks much.
Boy, what a rough series of events for poor Tigra. And leaving her baby to be raised by the Cat People? I don't know-- I think the more compelling story is if Tigra's circumstances are such that she needs to raise her child herself. Perhaps at Pym's Infinite Avengers Mansion? Thing is, as I've often sounded off about in the past here, I firmly believe that a superhero parent (especially a single one, like Tigra) has a greater obligation to their child than they do to society as a whole, and should take themselves out of active duty or participation. Reed & Sue's surreal household charade drives me banana-boats.

And I'm darned sure that's why Peter & MJ's baby was more or less "cancelled" 10 or 12 years ago. 'Cause there's 'way too strong a case to be made that Pete would unequivocably hang up his webs once that little life came and altered the power/responsibility equation.

HB

Your opinion is sound, of course, HB. Except... hmm, it could be argued that, within the internal logic of the MU, it might make sense for Sue, Reed, Crystal and all the other parents to continue to fight the forces of Evil since the FF and the Avengers have been quite often all that stood in the way of the world's destruction. And: no world= no children either.
I'm not claiming this line of reasoning is without flaws, but I think a case can be made out of it.

I know, I know. And even though I've firmly staked out where I stand, it's not like I can't recognize valid arguments to the contrary. If a person is literally capable of saving the world, of course they have to step up and do so, regardless of their personal circumstances. Does that mean that said super-person is obligated in the meantime to forego any and all the normal, happy relationships that make being human worthwhile? That hardly seems fair, eh? But maybe some things do need to be sacrificed.
I'm thinking at the moment of the recent NASA talk of sending a one-way manned mission to Mars. This is effectively a suicide mission without the death part. Those astronauts would never come back. Should candidates with young children even be considered? What about if they're married? Is that kind of sacrifice to be considered noble, or cruel?
I wonder if there's an "Ethics of Superheroes" thread bouncing around here somewhere. That would make for delightful discussion--!

HB

PS-- Man, Bong, I was going to chastise you for staying up too late, then saw that you're in Spain, which means that you're just a fellow who gets a nice, early start on his day!

[Doctor Bong]

I want my own Marvel comic book! "X-Patriate"... ;D

[Doctor Bong]

You know, HB, there is a book out there called "Superheroes and Philosophy". I don't remember the name of the authors/contributors, but you may find there a piece apropos to your inquiry... .
I think the title has been mentioned here before, somewhere.

[humanbelly]

Nov 19, 2010 1:52:50 GMT -5 Doctor Bong said:

You know, HB, there is a book out there called "Superheroes and Philosophy". I don't remember the name of the authors/contributors, but you may find there a piece apropos to your inquiry... .
I think the title has been mentioned here before, somewhere.

. . . aaaaaaand there it is on Amazon! There's also a companion volume: "Supervillains and Philosophy" as well as a suggested "Pscyhology of Superheroes". The reviews look very promising. Thus has been discovered a prime candidate for my Christmas list. Thanks a million, Doc--- exalt for you, without hesitation.

HB

[martyp]

Nov 14, 2010 16:46:34 GMT -5 Shiryu said:

I think it was after Johns, which in turn was after Busiek. Thankfully it was a very short run, just before Disassembled.

Bwhahaha, you Avengers fans had it easy!
The X-fans had to put up with Austen for a whole lot longer.
He is the worst writer EVER on the X-titles, there are pretty much no fans of his run...for real. He started out pretty well, but it shortly became very, very bad.
It's almost a must read to see just how bad it is, and how the flip the editors never stepped in (although the X-editors are some of the worst at Marvel, so that really says enough as well).

He used to write porn and that clearly shows during his Uncanny run.....
Some examples of his badness during Uncanny:
-Jubilee and Husk visit the grave of a recently deceased dear friend...but are talking about sex.
-Angel and Husk get naked etc....in front of Husk's mother.
-Havok suggests to pee so that Iceman can get his body back together.
-Nightcrawler is not just a human that looks like a demon, but he IS a demon! His father needed a way to get to earth...so he went to earth and had many kids so he could get to earth via them....yes, it's as stupid as it sounds!
- Etc etc. the list of stupid goes on and on.

Nov 15, 2010 4:05:02 GMT -5 Shiryu said:

I think it was at the very end of Johns' run, in the infamous "sex scene" issue.

Could someone please check when this was exactly?
I remember seeing it in a preview, I wanted to start reading Avengers again, but after that preview I didn't want to.
I would like to get the Johns issues, as he is doing great on DC's Green Lantern series for years and I'm curious how he did with Avengers.

The scene sounds like typically Austen, but if it is Johns, I won't get the trades because I don't like that sort of...intimacy... in my Marvel superhero comics.

Nov 15, 2010 22:18:54 GMT -5 humanbelly said:

Hmm-- did she possibly have an abortion? That could have tremendously powerful potential as a storyline-- I'm not sure we've ever seen that topic explored in the Marvel Universe (although there's much that I don't follow, granted).

Yes and no. Nocturne of the Exiles had an abortion.
I say no because it was never really explored, character-wise.

Man, it would just have to be devestating for her to be around Hank right now-- kind of hard to believe she'd be able to handle it.

Heh, Marvel can't see 'great character-driven story here!' these days anymore, it's just not funny anymore.

[starfoxxx]

I can't pinpoint the clint-jan hook-up issue, but apparently it's flash-backed in the train-wreck that is Avengers #503. I just read a review of that issue from back then---what a mess, and so many of those plotlines are still dangling ( or i just don't care ).
Anyhoo, apparently they "went all the way" , since in #503 Jan tells wanda about a pregnancy scare. I assume she wasn't talking about Hank.
I'll have to dig thru some back issues to get the exact ish, it's pretty tough to pinpoint on the computer (or i'm an idiot, very likely). gotta be #77-84 somewhere in Austen's run. I know i found it in a 50 cent bin, just for curiousity; a pretty lame era for the Assemblers.

[Shiryu]

Dec 5, 2010 3:48:12 GMT -5 martyp said:

Could someone please check when this was exactly?
I remember seeing it in a preview, I wanted to start reading Avengers again, but after that preview I didn't want to.
I would like to get the Johns issues, as he is doing great on DC's Green Lantern series for years and I'm curious how he did with Avengers.

The scene sounds like typically Austen, but if it is Johns, I won't get the trades because I don't like that sort of...intimacy... in my Marvel superhero comics.

I'm almost certain it was Johns' very last issue before handing over to Austen. That's because after the sex scene Hank proposes to Janet again and she turns him down, but in a respectful and appreciative way, whereas in Austen's run they just hate each other with a passion.

As for Johns' run, it started out well with a 4-issue Chaos & Order arc which was decent and seemed to be building towards something big involving the Zodiac, but it went downhill pretty quickly from there. With one notable exception: Avengers 478 (V3 #63), part of the Standoff crossover with Thor and Iron-Man, art by Alan Davis IMO was very good. It ties heavily with what was going on in Thor's book back then though, so it can be difficult to get the whole picture.

[martyp]

Thanks Shiryu, sounds not that great, so I'll save the money for something better.

[sharkar]

Dec 5, 2010 5:13:22 GMT -5 starfoxxx said:

I can't pinpoint the clint-jan hook-up issue, but apparently it's flash-backed in the train-wreck that is Avengers #503. I just read a review of that issue from back then---what a mess, and so many of those plotlines are still dangling ( or i just don't care ).
Anyhoo, apparently they "went all the way" , since in #503 Jan tells wanda about a pregnancy scare. I assume she wasn't talking about Hank.
I'll have to dig thru some back issues to get the exact ish, it's pretty tough to pinpoint on the computer (or i'm an idiot, very likely). gotta be #77-84 somewhere in Austen's run. I know i found it in a 50 cent bin, just for curiousity; a pretty lame era for the Assemblers.

I just bought the trade Avengers: Once An Invader trade collection the other day, which collects #82-84 (v. 3) and the Jan-Hawkeye hook-up begins in issue #82. Jan is uncharacteristically insecure or coy ("You think I'm pretty?") and Hawkeye says he's wanted to be with her for the longest time. Yes, I know it's a standard pick-up line but Hawkeye wouldn't resort to that with someone he's known as long as Jan. By #84 it appears to be over as Hawkeye is cool toward her.

[starfoxxx]

Thanks, sharkar. You just saved me alot of time looking through long boxes.