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Post by Shiryu on Mar 12, 2011 20:24:28 GMT -5
In a way, I think at Marvel comics were always aimed mostly at young adults. Wasn't Peter Parker's age supposed to be that of the average reader? and he was about 15-16 when he started, just about to finish high school.
I wonder if potential new readers are intimidated by the numbering. Manga are usually less than 100 volumes, mostly 25-50, so it's easier to collect the entire run, whereas Spider-Man or Thor 600 make one feel like there is one hell of a lot of catching up to do, although personally I quite like the feeling that I'm reading something that's been around for entire decades. Ultimately I suspect it's not authors or characters, just the world moving towards more interactive forms of entertainment, which doesn't bode well for us.
PS: as aside, if you have a chance check out the 4-issue EMH tie-in comic. The art isn't great but it's an enjoyable light read.
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Post by spiderwasp on Mar 12, 2011 23:54:29 GMT -5
BTW Starfoxxx, please don't insult hacks by mentioning Bendis. I prefer the term "crapweasel"when talking about that guy. I'm hoping to start a campaign... Why are you insulting crapweasels? ;D
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Post by drew on Mar 13, 2011 2:40:42 GMT -5
You may have a point Shiryu, but I guess for me I grew up reading comics and it never struck me as appropriate only for certain age groups. One of the first comics I remember reading was the reprint issue where Spider-Man tried to chemically remove his powers to be with Gwen Stacey. Through the issue, he confronts Doc Ock, the Vulture, the Kingpin.. all of his foes at the time. I had no idea who any of these people were, but what was happening was very clear. Bonus points for the Gil Kane artwork and the six arm ending. I suppose what I'm getting at is it was very accessible, even to a new reader (a very new reader!) A few years back Marvel put those fold out covers that had a brief recap of prior events and a roll call. It was great, and I suspect John Ostrander had fun with it writing Heroes for Hire. I used to have no idea at all about the Legion of Super Heroes, but an article in Wizard piqued my interest and I picked up an issue of LOSH and Legionnaires to try it out. Page one had a bunch of head shots; Cosmic Boy, Saturn Girl, etc. It wasn't a lot, but it gave me enough footing to start following the series. I'm up in the air about numbering; I just hate the endless retcons and reboots, which is why I ditched the Legion. Marvel has a problem now where even comics with one star are confusing. I was excited when I first heard about the Ultimate line, figuring it would be a great jumping on point for new readers. So they gave a couple of guys the keys to retell the Marvel Universe and they trash it. I did like the Ultimates and FF, at least at first, but these "superstar" writers can't go the distance. They can't seem to help messing things up. These guys need to be given their side projects, alternate universes or issues of What If? to play around in, not the main MU. Big events are nifty, but you have to have a clear plan of action before you shake things up for no real reason. I think this is a big reason why people don't read comics; I'm a lifelong fan and these constant "blockbuster story" with a reversal three months later feels like you wasted your time. If I had my way, Quesada would be out and Chris Yost would be calling the shots. Also, while I'm dreaming I'd like a pony.
P.S. My apologies to Crapweasels. Bendis is just freaking terrible.
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Mar 13, 2011 3:35:02 GMT -5
It's a pity there was such a lack of proper promotion for the show Stateside. Here in Spain the Disney Channel is consistently giving los Vengadores a serious on air push.
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Post by badgermaniac on Mar 13, 2011 15:51:02 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more about many of the points over the last page or two.
1. Comics are just not accessible to young readers anymore. Thematic issues aside (which are significant), the storylines are just way too convoluted. Back in the day, most of the individual books contained an entire story arc in one issue. Even if it was a TO BE CONTINUED, you knew that it was going to pick up in the following issue of the series.
Now, there are so many crossovers into different titles that it is virtually impossible to follow the storyline if you are your typical 15 year old (often with a limited spending capacity). Heck, I have a hard time following most of the arcs...how is a young reader supposed to do it?
2. Kids today have shorter attention spans with a much broader base of interests. I coach high school sports and we have a really hard time getting kids to devote time out of season to improving individual skills. 20 years ago, if a kid was baseball player, he played baseball...a lot. Now, he plays in-season but along with other sports, spends time on facebook, plays Black Ops for an hour a day, has 200 friends texting him every two minutes, and so on.
Kids today don't immerse themselves in much of anything. They are exposed to so much more than I was as a kid and the only way to process it all is to have sort of a fragmented mentality.
So, it isn't just comics that have suffered, but combined with the non-kid-friendly direction comics have taken over the last decade+, and it is no surprise that Captain America or the X-Men don't have the draw they once did.
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Post by bobc on Mar 13, 2011 19:37:20 GMT -5
I agree Badger--I have often wondered if "disorders" like ADD and all that crap are just about kids being unable to focus because they are inundated 24/7 with stimuli. All the guys around my age at work get so fried because we have a huge workload, and on top of that we have to keep up with incessantly changing tech (which never seems to work as well as the year before), e-mails, Facebook messages, Skype messages, Messenger, blah blah blah. It is never-ending. If I miss one day at work, I could easily spend an entire additional day catching up on hundreds of useless messages. On the weekends I leave my cell phone at home and just retreat into the Texas country areas and fossil hunt. I find it really sad that when you walk down the street in Austin these days, nobody even acknowledges anybody else because they have their snouts in a cell phone or Ipad or whatever. I just read a study that kids today prefer the online world to reality--which in some ways is understandable but eventually they will have to deal with the real world.
Anyway--enough of that. Life is being life and always changing.
I read on another comic forum that the EMH will be released on DVD in April (although, apparently the leaked titles and descriptions of episodes included are inaccurate) and that new episodes of EMH will be coming out at the end of March. This information may or may not be accurate--but it supposedly came from one of the writers of EMH.
I find it astonishing that there is almost universal approval of this series amongst comics fans. People may have a slight problem with some character or episode, but overall the accolades seem almost universal. That is so rare. I will be sad if this show doesn't find an audience.
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Post by drew on Mar 14, 2011 0:46:20 GMT -5
I agree completely fellas. Part of the reason my comic collection was so vast because a couple of comic stores in my area had massive sales and I made a killing on back issues. When I was younger though I had extremely limited funds and if a comic was not striking I wouldn't buy it anymore. Now very few comics are easy to jump in uninitiated, or sometimes good titles skew a little more mature. And bobc, I'll take a rumor from you over a fact from almost anyone else. Maybe we were just getting a little too wound up. Doctor Bong and a few others seem to indicate that the show is getting support everywhere but the U.S. which is encouraging. I'd love to see promotional stuff for EMH show up in connection with the Thor and Cap movies. It seems like a no brainer; especially considering how heavily EMH version of Iron Man is based on the movie and Cap will be fighting Hydra in his movie. I take these as positive signs.
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Post by bobc on Mar 14, 2011 9:21:33 GMT -5
Thanks, Drew!
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Mar 15, 2011 11:23:43 GMT -5
Wow, this thread certainly jumped into another area, lol. In terms of "kids these days" (weird to say when I'm 26) I can honestly admit that when I go into a comic store, for the most part it's all adult/older, and the kids in there are looking for Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh cards, MAYBE looking for a Manga. At another comic shop though, I've seen kids clean out 50 cents bins with 1980s/1990s issues of Spider-Man, Cap, Wolverine, and even our beloved Avengers. I think the criticism of today's comics being VERY convoluted/aimed to sell TPB's is what hurts. If I remember correctly, even New Avengers (vol. 1) was doing multi-issue storylines until issue #27(?) when they brought back Hawkeye and did the one-shot of him finding Wanda. After that it was the 2-part Luke finding his daughter. So in what, 60 issues they had done ONE stand alone story and ONE two-parter? What I liked about comics when I read them was that you could pick one up, read it, and have a complete story. What drove you to by another was interest to see what else the book had to offer, not because you were now stuck at part 3 of a 7 part story.
(end rant)
Now as for the EMH, I'll definitely be looking forward to the DVDs, and catching new episodes online.
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Post by bobc on Mar 15, 2011 13:45:38 GMT -5
I agree, Kid. Comics have gotten too convoluted with too many tie-ins. It's just too much work, not to mention too expensive, to follow all the endless plot lines. I don't mind an occasional tie in, but it's gotten ridiculous. I can say the same thing about video games. The average person on the street thinks two or three things about video games:
1. They have become way too expensive.
2. Half the time, they stink, which makes 1. on the list that much more painful.
3. They have become so complicated that the average person feels lost and confused--which is hardly how somebody wants to feel when they are supposedly relaxing.
I have told game designers these things over and over, but they don't get it because video games are their whole lives--they do not understand the average Joe on the street. Then suddenly Facebook games like Farmville and Frontierville come along and millions of people are playing them! they are simple, you can jump in and jump out, and they cost very little. 10% of America is playing these games as XBox titles and other console games sales continue to plummet.
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Post by drew on Mar 17, 2011 2:31:05 GMT -5
bobc. Exactly. I'm reminded of the Infinity Gauntlet, which was six issues I believe, featured every major Marvel character and featured world changing events and was still accessible to new readers. Secret Wars was pretty much the same way. There might be a fine line between simple and streamlined, but it is possible. I don't think there is a team up book these days, but there should be. Marvel Team-up, Marvel Two-in One, Marvel Comics Presents and Web of Spider-Man were all pretty good. You have to cut to the chase when you're only given a set number of pages to set up the team-up, introduce the villain, have an action sequence and wrap it up. Barry Windsor-Smith did Weapon X episodically in MCP, and that just blows my mind. I think Kidcage is essentially correct. Sometimes Marvel gives the writers too much leash and they run away with it. I swear, I am so tired of Spider-Woman, Ronin, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Elektra, Wolverine on every freaking team in the MU,... I understand writers having pet characters, but an editor should have put his foot down by now. I defy anyone to explain the Sentry to me. First impression: Marvel's Superman, but like any Marvel character he has failings. Boom. I'm sold. Anything after the first mini series is just garbage, though. How do you introduce/ruin a character in a few years? Hubris. I have to admit, I usually buy any comic related video game that comes out, no matter how bad they are. However, I typically buy them used which eases the hurt a little. Hell, I bought Aquaman: Battle for Atlantis for twelve bones just because I like Aquaman. But that is an interesting parallel you propose. I can't remember who said it, but some guy in the comic hierarchy complained about the writers/artists these days only having comic or movie knowledge, so the industry stagnates. I don't play video games too often, but the answer isn't in complex storylines and excellent art/graphics. It has to be enjoyable for the consumer. I'm a die-hard old school Atari/arcade/Nintendo fan, but my wife only plays games that are very simple. Quiz games, Tetris, etc. This is what people want from their games; ease of use. Emh is like the simplified version of the Avengers, not stupid, not patronizing but just good action packed fun.
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Post by drew on Mar 17, 2011 2:32:47 GMT -5
Dear God, what a wall of text! Sorry everybody!
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 17, 2011 13:43:45 GMT -5
Dear God, what a wall of text! Sorry everybody! No, no, drew-- this is fine. It's good stuff. I, for one, thoroughly enjoy a longer, in-depth, heartfelt post like that. I've written many-a, many-a, many-a-screen-stretcher in my time here. Your efforts resemble the more substantive storytelling that we do all seem to miss so much. . . . . . you're not "de-compressed", as it were. . . HB
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Post by drew on Mar 18, 2011 2:59:12 GMT -5
Thanks HB! I was in the moment. I, like everyone else am eagerly awaiting new episodes of EMH, and chewing the fat (disgusting as that phrase is) helps pass the time. So, it is likely we'll eventually see the Falcon, Hercules, and The Vision. Do you guys have any predictions/hopes for voice actors or interpretations? I think John DiMaggio would be excellent as Hercules, given his run on The Brave and the Bold. I could easily see an episode called "Guys Night Out" where Hercules takes Thor out in NYC to try to get Thor to loosen up a little. Maybe they beat up the Absorbing Man in the process, but you'd get to see Hercules celebrating his godhood, whereas Thor tends to mourn his responsibilities.
For the Vision, the obvious answer is Corey Burton, but that almost seems too easy. Still, I 'd like them to emphasize that Vision isn't a robot, but an artificial human. Actually, I can't readily think of a specific "incarnation" of the Vision that really stands out, though the bond he had with Simon Williams was interesting. Throw in the Grim Reaper as a grieving brother trying to destroy this mockery of his fallen brother and that would bea pretty good episode.
As for the Falcon.. I think I would ask Donald Glover to do it. He digs comics, he's funny and talented.. it could work. What if he's a younger character, say 17, who is inspired by the Avengers and wants to help people? Cap and the Panther agree to train him, but Cap is reluctant because of Bucky. Sam grows as a person and as a hero, but then Bucky resurfaces as the Winter Soldier, and Cap tries to shut Sam out to protect him.
So.. I obviously have a lot of free time on my hands. Any thoughts, yay or nay are great. If you got any ideas I'd love to discuss them. I've this notion that Jason Statham would be great as Electro, even though I'm pretty sure Maxwell Dillon is from Long Island. ....And that just set the bar.
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 18, 2011 11:46:34 GMT -5
Thanks HB! I was in the moment. I, like everyone else am eagerly awaiting new episodes of EMH, and chewing the fat (disgusting as that phrase is) helps pass the time. So, it is likely we'll eventually see the Falcon, Hercules, and The Vision. Do you guys have any predictions/hopes for voice actors or interpretations? I think John DiMaggio would be excellent as Hercules, given his run on The Brave and the Bold. I could easily see an episode called "Guys Night Out" where Hercules takes Thor out in NYC to try to get Thor to loosen up a little. Maybe they beat up the Absorbing Man in the process, but you'd get to see Hercules celebrating his godhood, whereas Thor tends to mourn his responsibilities. For the Vision, the obvious answer is Corey Burton, but that almost seems too easy. Still, I 'd like them to emphasize that Vision isn't a robot, but an artificial human. Actually, I can't readily think of a specific "incarnation" of the Vision that really stands out, though the bond he had with Simon Williams was interesting. Throw in the Grim Reaper as a grieving brother trying to destroy this mockery of his fallen brother and that would bea pretty good episode. As for the Falcon.. I think I would ask Donald Glover to do it. He digs comics, he's funny and talented.. it could work. What if he's a younger character, say 17, who is inspired by the Avengers and wants to help people? Cap and the Panther agree to train him, but Cap is reluctant because of Bucky. Sam grows as a person and as a hero, but then Bucky resurfaces as the Winter Soldier, and Cap tries to shut Sam out to protect him. So.. I obviously have a lot of free time on my hands. Any thoughts, yay or nay are great. If you got any ideas I'd love to discuss them. I've this notion that Jason Statham would be great as Electro, even though I'm pretty sure Maxwell Dillon is from Long Island. ....And that just set the bar. Oh man, Drew, obviously you're our go-to guy on voice-over questions! (Sort of like how bobc is our on-board artist-guy. . . as well as our computer gaming industry guy. . . ) I hadn't a clue about the VO guys you were referring to, so I used this-here internet thingy to track down Corey Burton, as your reference to his being obvious for the Vision stuck with me. Came across clips of him voicing Red Tornado & Braniac, and I thought, yep, this is certainly in his skill-set. Except, if anything, Vizh's voice would be even colder and less expressive than either of those characters. While not flat-out robotic, Vision's voice in his formative years (and far beyond) was referred to very frequently, citing the fact that it was always so disturbingly cold, flat, inexpressive, unemotional, hollow, etc, etc, etc. This was of course hard to convey in the non-aural medium of comics, but the writers (and editors) did a fine job over many years of conveying the fact that the inhuman quality of Vizh's voice may have been the biggest stumbling block towards his being quickly accepted by folks who weren't familiar with him. Now, how a VO actor manages to capture all of that, and yet not sound "robotic" may indeed be a tough assignment. To my mind's ear, he's always sounded like the HAL-9000 (from 2001), which would actually be incorrect, as HAL's voice was ironically just about the only warm (albeit terminally laid-back) aspect of that whole film. But there you go. And so we go skipping merrily off onto another tangient. . . probably leading to a moebius loop. . . ! HB
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Post by drew on Mar 19, 2011 3:24:12 GMT -5
"I'm afraid I can't let you do that HB." Ha! Yeah, Corey Burton was perfectly cast as Brainiac. I think Andrea Romano pretty much runs the show on the animated DCU, and she rarely missteps. While everyone always cites Batman: TAS as a touchstone in voicework, (yes, Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill are brilliant) I've always admired the voice actors from the Superman animated series more. First off, I have a huge crush on Dana Delany, (Lois Lane) so I'm a little biased. But Tim Daly as Superman was just perfect. Clancy Brown was great as Lex Luthor (and Odin!) , and guest stars like Brad Garret as Lobo and Bibbo and Miguel Ferrer as Aquaman were pretty cool too. I like pausing a show and trying to figure out "where do I know that voice from?" That is why I'm in awe of people like Mel Blanc and Dan Castellaneta. I only recently realized Dan C. was the voice of Groundskeeper Willie! But I do agree, the Vision should sound inhuman and slightly creepy. The original stories always emphasized how unsettling he was, and John Byrne and Geoff Johns both tried to restore that, with mixed results. The other robot superhero, Red Tornado has the same problem; they keep trying to make him human, which is boring. It would be more interesting to see him apply his unique perspective to everyday life. Imo, this is why Thor, Cap and Ben Grimm are interesting; because they are different. Thor and Cap have barely been touched on yet on EMH and well, I just like the ever-lovin' blue eyed Thing of Yancy Street a lot. Aunt Petunia agrees, we need the "idol o'millions" to scrap it out with the Hulk. How's that for a tangent?
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Post by humanbelly on Mar 19, 2011 16:37:19 GMT -5
&, this is why Thor, Cap and Ben Grimm are interesting; because they are different. Thor and Cap have barely been touched on yet on EMH and well, I just like the ever-lovin' blue eyed Thing of Yancy Street a lot. Aunt Petunia agrees, we need the "idol o'millions" to scrap it out with the Hulk. How's that for a tangent? *sigh*-- but they'll never-- NEVER-- be able to find someone that'll be able to nail Ben's voice the way Paul Frees did in the old Hanna-Barbera FF cartoon. It's one of the few aspects of that cartoon that's stuck with me all these years. . . I mean, you'd have to find a Paul Frees impersonator. . . HB
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Post by drew on Mar 20, 2011 3:22:46 GMT -5
@hbyou're right, Paul Frees was pretty perfect. I read somewhere that the Thing was based on Jimmy Durante. I wonder if Dennis Franz would be any good as Ben. I'd be happy as long as it isn't "Thing rings, do your thing!" I'm generally not a Hanna Barbera fan, but their FF series was d**n good. Also Thundarr had the best intro ever! Jack Kirby: was there anything he couldn't do? Did anybody check out Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions? I actually liked that game, they had me at Spider-Man 2099 voiced by Dan Gilvezan, voice of Peter/spidey on Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends! And he is still fantastic today. Neal Patrick Harris did one version and was really good as well. That makes me wonder if one Mr. Stan Lee will do a cameo on EMH. Maybe something like President of the U.S. or... the Watcher! I'd love to see Galactus, but maybe the Watcher would be good as a narrative device to do something like a What If? episode. Some of the best episodes of the 90's X-men series were about alternate realities/ changing time, etc, but maybe it's too soon for EMH. Still, a direct to DVD Marvel Zombies would be pretty cool (if disgusting.) As for the Visions voice, I think Michael Ironside would be awesome, but Powers Boothe and Ian Buchanan would also be good candidates.
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Post by bobc on Mar 21, 2011 9:18:56 GMT -5
Drew--everyone enjoys your posts and I pretty much agree with everything you write. It makes me sad to recall stories like Secret Wars, which were many issues long, but the story was confined more or less to those pages, not 500 other comic books. The story might affect other comics, which is fine--but this whole idea of having to buy 500 titles just to grasp what's going on is crazy.
Funny you should mention that writers today have only ever read comics and watched movies--which is EXACTLY why practically nobody is writing anything worth reading, Thunderbolts and Avengers Academy being major exceptions. Back when I wanted to break into comics as a penciler, they told me that I should NOT learn how to draw by looking at comics. They told me I should learn to draw by drawing real people, real buildings, etc. and that was great, sound advice. Alan Moore is a stellar example of an amazing writer, and he is amazing because it is obvious he draws from so many sources, from the classics to True Crime. Have you all read Top Ten? It is so impossibly fantastic that I am now reading it again for the fifth time. That book, more than any other he's done, shows what an encyclopedic cultural database he has in his mind.
All that being said, comics are just comics, but that doesn't mean they have to be mediocre. To achieve depth, you must read all kinds of things.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 21, 2011 10:20:15 GMT -5
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Post by bobc on Mar 21, 2011 13:13:56 GMT -5
Great to "see" you again, Dl! Where have you been?
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Post by drew on Mar 21, 2011 15:20:49 GMT -5
You are exactly right, bobc. At one point in my life I considered going to art school and had a couple of decent scholarship offers, but the cost was just staggering. So I have a keen interest in art in all aspects. One artist who really caught my eye (besides Mobius) was Steve Dillon. His work on Preacher was so unlike the Kirby-influenced stuff that American artists do. I'm not saying it was better or worse, but it just didn't seem as action oriented as the comics I was used to. I really like seeing the different styles that can be brought to bear. Like how John Romita, Steve Ditko, and Jack Cole used their gifts in various ways. They utilized their talents in completely diverse ways. For example, you can see Romita's background in romance comics by the way he draws women; Ditko projects his personal views into his creations, and Jack Cole created Plastic Man, a very humorous character, but he was apparently a very troubled man. That's the long way around the barn method of saying that these men had some pretty diverse interests/backgrounds. And it shows. Jim Steranko was a carny and escape artist before becoming a comic artist and was such a character that Mr. Miracle was based on him.
I remember reading in an issue of Booster Gold vol. 1 that Dan Jurgens confessed when he started drawing comics basically all he knew how to draw were guys in tights. And that was twenty years ago, roughly. I would say that was indicative of where the trend would go.
As for Alan Moore, well he is just a unique entity. I must admit when I re-read Watchmen I try to figure out what parts are Alan and which parts are Dave Gibbons. There were some comics released under the Image label which were basically Alan Moores' take on 60's Marvel icons. There were takes on the FF, Spidey, Thor, the Hulk, etc. Even today, when invited to something I don't want to go to I usually respond "Mogo doesn't socialize." I'm going to check out Avengers Academy, and though any news is good news I don't trust Jeph Loeb.
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Post by dlw66 on Mar 21, 2011 17:21:18 GMT -5
Great to "see" you again, Dl! Where have you been? Bob -- I'm always lurking on the boards, and have enjoyed the conversation on this particular thread. But, as I've said many times before I'm not reading anything new these days and don't have much to contribute around here. That, and I spend quite a bit of my free time writing on the Bronze Age Babies blog. It's a labor of love, and makes me dig into all of the great stuff from the 1970's that I read as a kid. Check it out sometime if you've not already. Doug
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Post by bobc on Mar 22, 2011 9:53:43 GMT -5
I forgot you did that blog! I need to bookmark that! I really enjoyed reading it the couple of times you posted links.
Drew--I think Alan Moore is one of the greatest writers ever in comics. I am not always into some of the subject matter he writes about (Tom Strong and Prometheus (sp) being examples), but even so it can't be argued that that those titles aren't well written. His run on Swamp Thing was amazing.
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Post by drew on Mar 22, 2011 16:33:13 GMT -5
Bob- I agree. I'm not a huge Neil Gaiman fan, but "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader?" is very much in the same league as Alan Moore's swansong for Superman. All-Star Superman was very well done (plus I'm a huge Quietly fan) and sort of a tribute to the Silver age. Grant Morrison did some very interesting stuff with Animal Man, WE3 was heartbreaking, his run on JLA was great and I think he did a short story in "Weird War Tales" where a G.I. Joe doll falls in love with a Barbie doll but has post traumatic stress disorder. I guess I tend to think of writers or artists into two categories, fair or not. There are the meat-and-potatoes guys who never do a bad panel/story but never try to raise the bar either. This is fine because it keeps things stable and it's a solid value. Ron Frenz, Pat Oliffe, Fabian Niceza, Tom DeFalco are all examples of this. These guys pretty much embody "Marvel comics" as a style. Then you have those writers/artists who try something new and experimental. Sometimes it works, but a lot of time it doesn't. This is where Moore, Morrison, Gaiman, Veitch and others fall.
In my opinion, people like Bendis are type one creators who try to be type two creators, and the end result is disaster. As a contrast look at Garth Ennis on the Punisher. There are some serious stories in there (Punisher: The End and Punisher: Born) but for the first arc or two it seems like a parody. And that's fine. It's entertaining, and that is the point of comics anyway. But that ability to switch it up and still keep a consistent narrative is a rare thing. BTW, is anyone else terrified of an Ultimate Spider-man adaption? I'll check it out of course but I'm not a fan of a crybaby Peter Parker. I always think of that Ditko panel where Spidey is trapped under collapsing masonry while water is filling the room. Peter says basically, "Thor couldn't lift this, the Hulk couldn't lift this," but he plants his feet and lifts it anyway, not to save himself, but to get a serum to Aunt May. That's a Spider-Man I like, not one who complains about Wolverine smelling like a wet dog constantly.
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Post by bobc on Mar 23, 2011 10:11:23 GMT -5
I never read most of the DC stuff you mentioned, Drew. I'm a Quietly fan, too, by the way! Loved his work on The Authority--particularly the parody of the Avengers and Jack Kirby as a mad scientist. That run was the first time I took notice of my idol, Mark Millar.
I have to say something here though--I am enjoying MM much less these days now that he is no longer teamed up with Quietly or Hitch. Mediocre art can really drag a story down. Or maybe MM has been so busy promoting Kick Azz that his writing has suffered. Not sure--but something isn't "clicking" lately.
I don't bash Bendis anymore--he isn't worth the time. I have come to the conclusion that I will never comprehend how anyone could consider him a competent or interesting writer but some people love him. On another forum they did a poll asking Avengers fans if they liked or disliked Bendis' Avengers--and one recurring theme I noticed amongst the "he's GREAT" fans is that many of them said they never read the Avengers prior to Bendis' run. It is a little hard to take the pro Bendis votes seriously if the people voting have nothing to compare it to.I never read Bendis' run on Daredevil or Spiderman so I can't give an opinion, but a lot of people, when asked about his Avengers stint, cite the Daredevil and Spiderman days as proof of his talent. They seem to not grasp the fact that they are being asked about the Avengers, not the other books.
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Post by drew on Mar 23, 2011 12:02:32 GMT -5
Hey Bob! Nice to meet another Quietly fan. I always enjoy seeing what everybody else likes so I can assemble a fresh reading list. I also like Millar, but I'm not familiar with K.A. Maybe it's time to give it a look. You might want to check out Aztek: The Ultimate Man, if you haven't already. It only ran for twelve issues, but was an odd look at a new hero. The Hourman series is also very enjoyable, Tom Peyer takes G. Morrison's "diamond generation intelligent machine colony" and teams him up with Snapper Carr. The gorgeous artwork of Rags Morales was a definite plus. Major Bummer was also a worthwhile series. I hear what you are saying about Bendis, but I'm not ready to let that one go yet. His style of slash and burn writing I think is ultimately detrimental to the industry as a whole. You did me a huge favor in your last paragraph, by getting to the heart of the matter. To many people, there isn't a basis for comparison, so they confuse "events" with "storytelling." This is why I like EMH so much; it cuts away all the nonsense and focuses on the characters. They aren't wearing new outfits every episode, they don't have a goofy wisecracking sidekick, and there is a healthy respect for the past, without being slavish towards it. I'd like it for people to consider EMH as the baseline of what the Avengers should be.
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Post by bobc on Mar 23, 2011 17:00:16 GMT -5
I never even heard of The Ultimate Man. I'll see if Austin Books has it when I go next.
I read an interview with Quietly a while ago--and had to laugh because although the interviewer was respectful and obviously a fan, his final questions was "But Frank, what's the deal with the lips?" I was laughing! He does draw unusually large, kind of odd lips! It seemed as though Frank wasn't sure what the interviewer was talking about, but I did!
Bendis used to annoy me to no end, until I stopped actually buying him, which was around 2006. I occasionally bought a book written by him after that but it was always accidental in the sense that I didn't realize he was the writer until after I started the book. You know, Drew, I could tell, just by the writing, that it was him. The stilted, annoying, everyone talks the same approach gives him away every time. If you can recognize a writer's writing by reading it, it is amateurish. The first thing they teach you in college creative writing courses is that you should base characters on people you've known in your life. That is an easy way to define speech patterns and attitudes, creating unique personae. That is no different than artists being instructed to learn to draw by drawing real life stuff, rather than copying comic books. If I read "Oy Vey" one more time I thought I'd hurl.
These days I look at Bendis fans with alien-like bemusement. It really is a cult of personality. I want to understand it in the sense that it is like a sociology experiment. I posted this a long time ago, but it bears repeating. Back in 2006 I finally realized how truly bad Bendis' writing on Avengers was, and I was baffled that people seemed to think he was the Second Coming. In an attempt to understand what the appeal was, I went into a Houston comic store and asked the guy behind the counter if he liked what Bendis was doing, and he chirped "YES! I love it." Baffled, I asked him why--and he said it was because of how great Bendis was with "Characterization." I was still confused so I asked for an example. I swear to God, the guy said "Hawkeye--Bendis writes him as very brash." I just about died. Hawkeye was killed off in one of the first issues, never said much, and his final scene was a big, dreary frown as he basically committed suicide for no apparent reason.
Picking the character that almost never appeared in the book, and was certainly never "brash" the few times he showed up, let me know that I was dealing with a Cult of Personality. It makes me laugh that Bendis has people so bamboozled that he even came up with this trendy term "decompressed storytelling." We used to call that boring. Or meandering. Or not getting to the point.
The whole thing is fascinating if you step back and watch it unfold.
By the way, I was not recommending Millar's Kick Azz. It was the first book he ever did that didn't connect with me. If you can find his parody of the Avengers in the The Authority, get it. it's funny, scary and a great read--particularly for Avengers fans.
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Post by drew on Mar 23, 2011 19:12:21 GMT -5
bobc Yes! Very astute! While having a "style" is kind of neat, being able to go beyond that is what separates the good from the great. In How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, Stan Lee says about artwork "you need to learn the rules before you can break them." This applies to much more than artwork, at least to me. For example, if I pick up something by Mark Waid, I can't always tell who wrote it, and I've read Waid for years. I
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Post by drew on Mar 23, 2011 20:23:35 GMT -5
Ah, my phone rang and my finger slipped... sorry! I remember not too long ago when Bendis was writing Mighty Avengers and he had the big idea to start using thought balloons. Not using a major tool that is pretty much exclusive to your medium should have been a major warning sign, and yet no one stopped him. Reading Bendis to me is like watching soap operas or American Idol. I've seen/heard it before, and done better. While it's not fair to lay all the blame at Bendis' feet, the guy thrives on turmoil or fake turmoil because we all know Hawkeye, Captain America, the Vision etc will come back eventually, so having them killed in an "epic" storyline then bringing them back soon after seems like a slap in the face. Yes, I realize in comics everybody dies and comes back, but Bendis is just clumsy at it. I'd recommend the Geoff Johns Avengers issues (especially the Scott Lang one) Mark Waid on the Fantastic Four, or Grant Morrison's stint on the Flash, especially the Jay Garrick issue. "Decompressed storytelling?" That has to be a joke! Nobody talks like that in real life, right? This surely means his head is in the vicinity of his rectum, correct? If he wants to write a novel fine but leave Spider-Man out of it. But Bob, given your background in gaming, do you see a similar situation to comics? I recently purchased Metroid: Other M, and it seems pretty obvious that what one guy wanted was pretty much what happened, no matter how little sense it made. This seems to be your cult of personality in another medium; where games are becoming more like movies and so are comics. Most movies are very formulaic, and I largely quit games when all I could do was play a space marine or a criminal. I just don't like all my media becoming the same, if that makes sense.
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