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Post by Shiryu on Dec 22, 2010 18:11:18 GMT -5
I'd love to see Silver Surfer and Galactus, and also Thanos!
Interestingly this last episode in production order was, I think, 18, so they showed it earlier for some reason. Perhaps to have more of a cliffhanger before the Christmas break?
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Post by drew on Dec 23, 2010 2:10:21 GMT -5
Personally, I'd really like to see the Annihilation wave at some point. And I must say that they have done wonders with the Grim Reaper. They ditched the goofy things on his head, replaced it with a hood, and he always has that little smirk while his face is in shadow. Lance Henriksen was a excellent choice as the voice actor as well. This is what should be done; not arbitrarily altering classic characters/stories, but maybe putting a bit of polish on them to help them realize the inherent potential. That said, I'd really like to see their take on Dethlok, Killraven, Morbius and some second string villain like the Beetle, all of whom have the capacity to be great characters. Also, some lesser lights like Sleepwalker or Darkhawk would be interesting, at least as cameos. There are so many great characters in the Marvel Universe, and now I feel like a gigantic dork.
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Post by bobc on Dec 30, 2010 17:10:56 GMT -5
We are gloriously informed Marvel fans of the highest imaginable quality, not dorks. By the way, went to Austin Books today and asked the guys behind the counter if they'd seen this cartoon, and only one out of the four even knew it was on! This is bad!!! I am really afraid it will be canceled due to complete lack of promotion.
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Post by Shiryu on Dec 30, 2010 21:17:44 GMT -5
52 episodes have already been produced, so they will see the light in one way or another, with the worst case scenario being they come out straight on DVD. However I'd really like this show to last many many seasons like the JLA did (or more!) so we have to spread the word. The more viewers and fans the better!
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Post by bobc on Jan 2, 2011 15:15:07 GMT -5
I'm doing my part!
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Post by drew on Jan 2, 2011 17:39:27 GMT -5
Thanks bobc! I feel better now. I have every confidence that this show will do well, though it might be off to a slow start. I think JLA already had a built in fanbase because of the preceding Batman/Superman series, so that gave them a leg up. Also, this is a time of year when people have a lot of things going on, so it's not very surprising that many people have no awareness of the show. Personally, I found the mini episodes a bit confusing at first, so that might turn some people off. But.. the Iron Man movies were sucessful, the Thor movie looks pretty cool, and Captain America has a movie in the works, subtitled the first Avenger, so I'm sure toys will be flooding stores soon. I liked superheroes before I could read, and never looked back. That said, I don't think JLA lived up to its potential like it could have, and I'm getting the same feeling from the Young Justice premiere a few weeks back. I realize it's a bit of a tangent, but what is Avengers doing correctly that other shows don't? I have my own thoughts, but I'm curious as to what other people might have picked up on. I thought Wolverine and X-men was very solid, and Batman: the Brave and the Bold was a lot of fun, if that generates any talking points.
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Post by bobc on Jan 2, 2011 18:30:55 GMT -5
Well a big problem is that kids don't read comics anymore. I almost never see kids in the comic store. I ask kids all the time if they read comics and they invariably say no. I work with a woman named Janet who wrote some issues of Batgirl in (I think) the 90's and I told her about the Avengers cartoon--and we just started talking about the business side of comics. She told me that in the 90's, a book selling 200,000 copies would be up for cancellation. Today, selling 60,000 is considered a success. That is pretty scary. (These numbers may be off a bit--the conversation took place a long time ago--but the point was that sales have been declining sharply for years). I think many factors contribute to this decline--not the least of which is the fact that there are literally hundreds, if not 1000's of titles out there. In the 70's the choices were basically Marvel or DC, each publishing just a couple of dozen titles, but now your head could explode just looking at rack after rack of comic titles.
Uhhhh what was my point again? Oh yeah--since kids aren't buying comics, the only way they will be exposed to these Marvel characters will be through cartoons and movies.
AND ONE MORE HUGE POINT ABOUT THE AVENGERS CARTOON and then I'll shut up: These animated super heroes have NOBILITY. That has been missing from comics for so long it seems.
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Post by drew on Jan 8, 2011 5:14:02 GMT -5
Please don't shut up bobc! From what I understand the comics industry goes through phases; funny animals, westerns, romance books, whatever. Today when people hear "comic book" they think (generally) super hero. But with so much variety out there, the audience is naturally split. And you're right. Very few kids read anything anymore. The price hike doesn't help, but it seems unavoidable. There are so many cool titles out now that unless you follow the industry or have a good source of input you might feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume. There are also some very lousy titles, and revamps, reboots, whatever that just fall flat. As far as nobility, that is an interesting notion. Tony Stark is a guy trying to make up for past misdeeds. Simon Williams made a grave mistake but could be redeemed. Hank Pym is sort of Tony's Jiminy Cricket. Hawkeye isn't perfect, but he is a hero. Thor is very noble, but he disobeys his father and potentially endangers Asgard to protect mortals. I think the episode with Kang will focus on Captain America's sense of duty and responsibility. This might be the lead in to Cap being the leader. I'm pretty sure we'll see the Growing Man, and that would be enough for me.
Just to clarify for everyone who might not know, The Avengers return this Sunday, with Kang wanting to destroy Captain America because he causes a future Kang doesn't like. Personally, I can't wait!
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 8, 2011 8:41:02 GMT -5
I also can't wait to the trilogy of Kang episodes! But I don't think Cap will assume leadership, formally at least. These episodes are set before last episode with the Black Widow (that one was 1x19 in production order, these are 1x16-18 - I suspect they didn't want to break for Christmas with an open story) and Tony is still leader in the Widow episode.
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Post by Ignore Me! on Jan 8, 2011 12:26:58 GMT -5
Finally caught this show and was impressed. Very well done even if my daughter couldn't understand the awesomeness of someone named Antman.
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Post by bobc on Jan 9, 2011 11:33:59 GMT -5
Spoiler Alert: I just watched the first of the Kang episodes! Another winner! You know, after seeing my favorite Marvel characters animated for the first time)I am realizing a few things that never occurred to me from just reading comics. One, GOOD LORD what a broad spectrum of great characters, including the villains, Marvel has. I guess having gotten so used to them over the years, I wasn't seeing the woods for the trees! Seeing them all animated is like seeing them for the first time. Second, it never dawned on me how scary some of these villains (and some of the heroes) would be if they existed in real life. I found Kang to really scary for some reason--I think it's a combination of the blue Mask, along with his effortless ability to trounce the Avengers that was really impressive. I also find Giant Man's sheer size to be really, really scary, especially when he just sort of rises out of nowhere. Antman may not knock your socks off, but when Giant Man basically punts the Abomination through a building, you have to admit that Pym is a power to be respected on the team.
I hope they make the Panther and Thor less stuffy in the future. Kids hate stuffy super-heroes.
One mo' thang--am I the only one who thinks Hawkeye and (surprisingly) the Hulk, have the most personality on the team? I like all the Avengers, but it seems like when Hawkeye and the Hulk are in a scene, their personalities just really click for some reason. The two of them watching and laughing at the sparring between Cap and Tony Stark was priceless.
Funniest line in today's episode: Hank Pym reveals the army of Ultrons in the Negative Zone prison--and they just pan into Jan's face, which doesn't move for a second, and finally she just says, worriedly, "That's a lot of Ultrons!" Hee hee!
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Post by drew on Jan 10, 2011 1:15:11 GMT -5
I agree, another knockout episode. Best part is that we'll be getting to see two more episodes featuring Kang. Bobc is correct, Kang is very creepy. The mask is part of it, but I thought some of it was how calm and laid back he was. Heck, he spent a good chunk of the episode sitting down or standing with his hands behind his back. I'm not certain I want to see the whole Rama-Tut, Immortus, whatever thing just yet. Not to mention the Scarlet Centurion/Iron lad. I really like how handy Ant-man has proven to be. If you think about, he could potentially be anywhere at anytime, not to mention every ant you see is potentially a spy communicating with him. I'd like to see Black Panther given a bit more to do, but I'm sure they'll get back to him eventually. Also, the Fantastic Four cameo was great.
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Post by bobc on Jan 10, 2011 14:16:29 GMT -5
Yeah I wanted to see more Black Panther (there's a shocker) but seeing that he had his Man Ape episodes which were all about him, and the fact that he has been doing a lot up until now, it's a minor complaint.
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 10, 2011 15:15:09 GMT -5
I just finished watching it, it's another great episode! Favourite bit was having the entire roster fight Kang, it really gives the idea of how dangerous he is, especially as he seemed capable of overpowering them all. I also loved the bit at the beginning with Steve and Tony training, a nice moment of interaction. And the Damocles base, straight from Busiek's run! The prison in the negative zone was interesting. I didn't like it in the comic books, but somehow it didn't bother me here. I was more surprised at the Avengers ID Card working actually. Can't wait for the next!
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Post by drew on Jan 11, 2011 4:05:08 GMT -5
Playing off of something bobc and Shiryu noticed; some things I didn't care for in the comics translate really well to television, or at least they are easier to appreciate. That is why I'm curious to see some old concepts like the Supreme Intelligence or Ronan the Accuser or new ones like the Big House or the new Marvel Boy. I think if I was a kid seeing this stuff for the first time it would blow my mind. I too am really enjoying the Hulk/ Hawkeye stuff; I figured they would follow the comics and move the Hulk out early but I'm glad they didn't. Now that we've seen Cap and Tony spar maybe we can see Hulk and Thor arm wrestle.
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Post by badgermaniac on Jan 12, 2011 1:12:59 GMT -5
There are so many great cameo type scenes.
In the Kang episode, there was the scene with Cap doing the iron cross on the rings. That is straight out of the Shooter era somewhere in that 160-180 range.
I find so many little nods to the original books....it turns into a version of "I Spy."
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Post by visionloveswanda on Jan 12, 2011 1:28:54 GMT -5
I agree badger, it seems like they really intend to loosely recreate the entire storyline. Not sure they will. But for those of you with access to the entire Avengers series, couldn't a case be made for the series being at about issue #8 or so? In some ways of course, they are much further ahead. Ultron 5 has been introduced, so they've set the stage for my main man the Vision (issue #57), and Wanda and Pietro can't be too far away I hope... I like it. It seems to be staying fairly consistent with the comic's time line but mixing it up for us to keep us guessing. Do you think they will let the big three take any hiatuses from the team? You think there is anyone watching it besides us middle aged guys?
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Post by bobc on Jan 12, 2011 9:40:20 GMT -5
You're so right, Badger. I see little things all the time that point to comic scenes of yesteryear. Is Stan Lee involved in this? That would certainly explain it. Stan Lee loves his characters and it shows.
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Post by drew on Jan 12, 2011 23:52:22 GMT -5
I thought that was just me, Badger. I remember that issue very well. Jocasta is brought to the mansion inert, then activates and leaves to find Ultron. Cap deflects Mjolnir so they can track her and find Ultron. BTW, during the Busiek run when he revealed that Ultron's programming is based on Henry Pym's brainwaves, explaining all of Pym's mental problems as guilt over creating a monster with his personality, well, I thought that was so perfect. That is how you do a retcon, Marvel, not involving your version of the devil. Personally, I'm trying to get as many people watching the show as possible.
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Post by badgermaniac on Jan 14, 2011 0:10:22 GMT -5
I agree badger, it seems like they really intend to loosely recreate the entire storyline. Not sure they will. But for those of you with access to the entire Avengers series, couldn't a case be made for the series being at about issue #8 or so? In some ways of course, they are much further ahead. Ultron 5 has been introduced, so they've set the stage for my main man the Vision (issue #57), and Wanda and Pietro can't be too far away I hope... I like it. It seems to be staying fairly consistent with the comic's time line but mixing it up for us to keep us guessing. What they are doing it taking entire storylines (which often twist and turn through many eras) and then throwing them into a blender and taking the best parts of each in order to create a new story. Some examples: 1. In the pilot, Graviton is the main villain, and he is combined with the New Avengers "Breakout" storyline. 2. Wonderman is the jealous inventor who joins the Masters of Evil (early Avengers), but is combined with his ionic form of more modern times. 3. They are setting up the concept of Ultron as being a hive-mind, which again, is a more modern take on the character. I could go on. You have things like Whirlwinds connection with Jan or modern Iron Man or modern (black) Nick Fury...and so on. I am really hoping/looking forward to how the Ultron stuff gets played out, not to mention possible takes on suped-up Nefaria or the Korvac saga.
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Post by humanbelly on Jan 14, 2011 6:23:36 GMT -5
I am 'way behind-- but just watched Gamma World and the Masters of Evil episodes last night, and thought both were just great. And, lo & behold, the MoE story was indeed working with the "Supervillain Team" issues that we've been discussing else-thread! EVERY ONE of them has their own agenda and/or feels that THEY are really in charge (as opposed to Baron Z), or at least should be. . . or don't actually care. . .
I particularly like the line-up, as it gives us villains relevant to many of the members. Especially like the inclusion of Abomination (although the Australian/British accent is a bit of a head-scratcher-- sounds vaguely like a pirate. . . ).
And of COURSE I like the fact that they've succesfully pulled the Hulk back into the fold for the moment!
HB
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Post by bobc on Jan 14, 2011 10:50:55 GMT -5
Well get on the ball, HB! We need your sage insights!
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Post by humanbelly on Jan 14, 2011 12:56:37 GMT -5
Well get on the ball, HB! We need your sage insights! Geeze, the pressure. . . ! I give & give & give. . . . (sob). . . HB
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 14, 2011 14:11:44 GMT -5
Do you think they will let the big three take any hiatuses from the team? I really doubt it. They may not appear in the odd episode but I don't expect them to ever disappear from the roster for a long period of time, especially with a Cap movie, a Thor movie and an Avengers movie starring the three of them about to come out. After all the big three were never away for too long in the JLA cartoon. For some reason I also don't think we will see much of Wanda and Pietro as they were in the "Wolverine and the X-Men" series and there might be rights issues. The feeling I have is that of a more or less constant roster (the current one, perhaps with the addition of Black Widow who is very present in the movie-world and would increase the number of ladies in the team) and the occasional guest-star, like Carol Denvers or Mockingbird the other day. Hey, I'm just 27!!!
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Post by bobc on Jan 14, 2011 17:22:37 GMT -5
You're probably right, Shir. I never saw that X-Men cartoon--was it any good?
I really would love to see the Scarlet Witch on the Avengers team. Pietro too--but I think Wanda's abilities would be flashier and cool.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 14, 2011 17:28:47 GMT -5
... By the way, went to Austin Books today and asked the guys behind the counter if they'd seen this cartoon, and only one out of the four even knew it was on! This is bad!!! I am really afraid it will be canceled due to complete lack of promotion. I wouldn't say there's a lack of promotion; besides all the stuff on the internet (which is where kids live these days), there's a comic book companion limited series written by Ed Yost called "The Avengers:Earth's Mightiest Heroes." Uhhhh what was my point again? Oh yeah--since kids aren't buying comics, the only way they will be exposed to these Marvel characters will be through cartoons and movies. In my case cartoons led me to comics. I loved the Woody Woodpecker cartoons and this directly led to me reading Woody Woodpecker comics. I loved Casper cartoons and this led me to Casper and other Harvey comics. The Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse cartoon led me to the Batman TV show, which led me to Batman and DC. The Fantastic Four Saturday cartoon led me to, of course, the FF comic. And the daily Marvel Superheroes cartoons--specifically the Captain America episode "When the Commissar Commands!" (based, as I learned years later, on Avengers #18)-- led me to the Avengers comic. Everyone I know who started reading comics back in the '60s (as a kid) like I did, did so because of wanting to see more of our favorite cartoon characters. The only exceptions to this progression were those fortunate kids who had older siblings/relatives who handed down their comics to their lucky younger sibs!
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 14, 2011 18:59:08 GMT -5
You are right Sharkar, and the comic book is not bad either story-wise. Art isn't great though. You're probably right, Shir. I never saw that X-Men cartoon--was it any good? I've only seen a handful of episodes. It wasn't as bad as the title would make one think, but not great either. I far preferred the X-Men series from the 90s (but I'm biased because in Italian it was dubbed by some of the best voice actors of the time. I've seen one or two episodes with the original English dubbing and it was terrible, flatter than an ironing board). For some reason they keep using Quicksilver as a villain though. I know he has been that too, but it's a bit sad that pretty much every X-Men cartoon always uses him only in that role.
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Post by sharkar on Jan 14, 2011 21:30:51 GMT -5
Hey, I'm just 27!!! A fact that, IMHO, makes your in-depth knowledge of comic book history--and other subjects--all the more remarkable!
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Post by drew on Jan 15, 2011 4:31:27 GMT -5
Wolverine and the X-men was actually pretty good if you could get past the fact that Wolverine was leading the X-men, which is kinda against his nature. I especially liked the episodes where Xavier was in the future fighting with Bishop, Hellion, and Marrow. I also liked the inclusion of Forge and the fact that Beast didn't spend most of his time in a cell. I was really looking forward to the Age of Apocalypse teasers but I guess Disney buying Marvel killed that, IMO. The 90's series was really great in many ways but fell flat in others. Storm's monologues were flat out goofy. I never cared for X-men evolution as it just felt childish and was trying too hard to be cool. Anyways, I am a bit tired of the mutant corner of the MU right now. A fun fan service episode might be where most of the Avengers are busy, (Thor in Asgard, etc.) and Cap and Hawkeye team up with Wanda and Pietro to take down some menace like ... Magneto! This will probably never happen, but I can dream. The first Kang episode and the Gamma world one got me thinking of the classic story "Emperor Doom." Doom takes over the world because he thinks he's the best suited at it... and he is! All the principle characters in that story (except Doom and Namor) have been introduced, so who knows? Maybe while they are at it they can rework the red Hulk idea so it isn't dumb anymore. While
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Post by Shiryu on Jan 15, 2011 10:07:15 GMT -5
A fact that, IMHO, makes your in-depth knowledge of comic book history--and other subjects--all the more remarkable! There is still much to learn though! Now that would be cool and very possible too! Hopefully there isn't any restriction on the use of guest stars! I also believe that, if the series is confirmed beyond the original 52 episodes, it may change into something akin season 3 of the JLA, with a much bigger rotating roster. Busiek implied something like this towards the end of his run after all.
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