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Post by sharkar on May 18, 2011 19:56:20 GMT -5
Fantastic Four 14 The Merciless Puppet Master By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers. Villains: The Puppet Master Guest Appearances: Namor
I don’t really see why Alicia got brought along either, all she really does is somehow detect the presence of her step-fathers control. I agree--it is absolutely ridiculous that Ben would bring her along, espcially since they were not going on just any case but on a case where they'd be in the depths of the ocean! Obviously the only reason Stan and Jack included her was--as you said, Owen--for the revelation scene in which she senses her step-father's influence. But c'mon...you mean big brain Reed wouldn't have eventually figured it out on his own? However as I've mentioned in previous posts I am a huge Alicia fan, so I was glad to see her play a pivotal part in this story despite the absurdity of having her tag along in the first place.
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Post by sharkar on May 18, 2011 20:26:25 GMT -5
Say Shar, do I remember reading somewhere that Heck's Tony Stark was modeled after Errol Flynn? The way Superman was initially intended to resemble Clark Gable? You have any related tidbits on anything like that? HB, in this case I've read the same stuff that you have--many resources over the years include the trivia that Heck modeled Tony on Flynn. And actually I've never read or seen an interview in which Heck himself states this. (On a related note I have read interviews where Heck states that he based his rendition of the Wasp on Heck's then-wife.) Heck can do handsome and beautiful; plus great character faces (his villains, his original versions of Happy and Pepper). But yeah, it's apparent this was Heck's template for the suave, handsome male, as seen here: Now this isn't Tony; this is the Swordsman, in Avengers #20, and with a hefty dose of Wally Wood inks. But I always think of Tony when I see this, at least at first glance!
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on May 19, 2011 17:29:34 GMT -5
After reading this entire thread, this has been absolutely amazing to read through!
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Post by humanbelly on May 20, 2011 8:08:01 GMT -5
[HB, in this case I've read the same stuff that you have--many resources over the years include the trivia that Heck modeled Tony on Flynn. And actually I've never read or seen an interview in which Heck himself states this. (On a related note I have read interviews where Heck states that he based his rendition of the Wasp on Heck's then-wife.) Heck can do handsome and beautiful; plus great character faces (his villains, his original versions of Happy and Pepper). But yeah, it's apparent this was Heck's template for the suave, handsome male, as seen here: Now this isn't Tony; this is the Swordsman, in Avengers #20, and with a hefty dose of Wally Wood inks. But I always think of Tony when I see this, at least at first glance! It's hard to convince myself that this isn't Tony, in fact-! Ol' Jacque (wasn't that Swordy's real name?) was indeed a handsome ol' rogue, wasn't he? Now, let me toss something out that struck me as a recent reversal of the model-the-character-on-a-real-star method. In Iron Man 2, was it me, or did the actor playing Howard Stark come across as nearly a dead-ringer for Heck's Tony Stark? Like, they took an image from an old Tales of Suspense or Iron Man, and said, "get me this face for Tony's dad"--? (That whole sequence was a multi-layered treat, in fact. The first thing that grabbed me was the Disney-esque theme music in the background, and I thought, "Wow, what a clever tribute to Disney's ubiquitous Sherman brothers!" And then the credit roll revealed that it wasn't a tribute at all---- that it actually WAS written by the surviving Richard Sherman-! Boy, Easter eggs inside of Easter eggs. . . !) HB
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Post by owene on May 20, 2011 10:53:27 GMT -5
I got a real Howard Hughes vibe from that cameo, not sure if it is entirely down to the first name or not. Definitely a model for the personality of Tony Stark but I think visually both Starks are a little based on him as well.
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Post by owene on May 20, 2011 10:56:01 GMT -5
After reading this entire thread, this has been absolutely amazing to read through! Thanks so much, although I think a lot of the credit goes to the responses as well, it always adds loads when people reply, I've learnt a lot from the follow ups in this thread as i've forgotten so much Marvel lore. I'll try and post a few more soon. I honestly haven't stopped doing them I always get worried about just putting up too many at a time because they must take a while to read.
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Post by humanbelly on May 20, 2011 11:15:32 GMT -5
I got a real Howard Hughes vibe from that cameo, not sure if it is entirely down to the first name or not. Definitely a model for the personality of Tony Stark but I think visually both Starks are a little based on him as well. Yes. Yes, I daresay your observation does ring a bit truer to me-- especially when supported by the spiffy photo-comparison. That's good. Of course, there's the obvious Walt Disney comparison (his whole Disneyland/Disneyworld presentations were very, very similar to this)-- but that's more environmental & situational, as this actor doesn't really look a heck of a lot like ol' Uncle Walt. . . HB
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Post by owene on May 20, 2011 13:46:04 GMT -5
I guess disney was a bit older when he became famous, most of the googleable publicity pics are of him a decade or so older but its the same sort of moustache and image and thats a really good call on the background music. I think the Stark science park thing they were doing in the film definitely owes something to disney. they must have had slattery die his trademark hair for some kind of reference.
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Post by owene on May 21, 2011 2:37:27 GMT -5
Strange Tales 108 The Painter of a Thousand Perils By Stan Lee with Robert Bernstein, Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers. Villains: The Painter of a Thousand Perils Guest Appearances: the Fantastic Four So What Happens?: The Torch is making easy work of catching gangsters but is worried that his life will soon be interrupted by a real super villain. Meanwhile mob boss Scar Tobin is visited by failed forger Wilhelm Van Vile who wants to demonstrate the amazing Magic Alien Paints he discovered in a cave while breaking out of the local prison. Everything he paints comes to live and he wants to use Tobin’s men and the magic paint to defeat the Torch. As tobin’s men stage a robbery the painter creates some gigantic fire extinguishers to put the Torch out. The next day he paints some monsters on a rampage through town and a giant wave of sand that swamps the Torch and puts out his flame once more. The Painter wants to get his final revenge by using the rest of the FF against the Torch and paints a scene where they have turned on him with a variety of weapons. This seems to work and radio reports are soon announcing the death of the Torch. However it turns out that the Torch had secretly tracked down Van Nile’s magic paints while Van Nile was asleep and painted his own duplicate. It was this fake torch that had been killed by the FF. So is it any good?: The ending is incredibly lame. It’s all over so quickly it doesn’t even really count as a dramatic twist. One second there is a news report that the Torch had died, presumably at the hands of his sister and closest friends. The next the Torch is announcing that he had seen through all the weird happenings due to spotting artistic shortcuts in Van Vile's work, saying that he had tracked down Van Nile, waited for him to go asleep and then created a stand-in torch to be murdered by his teammates before giving him his paints back. I’m all for twist endings but what?!? Otherwise it’s all pretty silly with quite nice Kirby art. I liked his mad painter visuals a lot but the story doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny at all. Are there any goofy moments? The Torch’s latest new power. The ability to blow mansize smoke rings that constrict and choke people. The painter is such an expert on painting styles that he can tell the alien painting is “about a million years old”. What exactly was he comparing it to? The torch sees through the giant tidal wave of sand because there are no litter baskets in sight so it obviously can’t be a real beach. Which speaks highly of hygiene standards. The painter starts out having to paint things on actual surfaces that then come to life, but pretty soon he’s just painting things in thin air at fantastic speeds. Trivia:The torch used to have a part-time job in a bookstore. Not something I would have guessed as being in character and i doubt if it ever got mentioned again. The Painter reappeared decades later in a Web of Spider-Man story that ended with him exploding in a cloud of bugs. Is it a landmark?:No.
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Post by owene on May 21, 2011 2:49:05 GMT -5
The Stronghold of Dr Strange By Stan Lee, Robert Bernstein, Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers Villains: Dr Strange Guest Appearances: None So What Happens?: Tony Stark’s life is its usual whirl of gala events, world changing inventions and breaking up spy rings. However he still has to constantly charge his chest plate to stay alive and therefore can never find true happiness. As Iron Man demonstrates his suit’s abilities to the inhabitants of a children’s hospital and the watching tv cameras someone seizes control of his actions and armour. The imprisoned evil scientist Dr Strange has found a frequency that can grant him control of the Iron Man armour. He orders Iron Man to break into his prison and release him. Iron Man does so and takes to the air to speed the villain to freedom. Hours later Iron Man finds himself back in control of himself, but Strange has fled to a high tech island staffed by mercenaries and war criminals. Here Strange is reunited with his daughter Carla and vows to take on the whole world. He explodes a nuclear device and makes demands to be given control of the world. The super powers retaliate with nuclear weapons but Strange has a shield that protects his whole island. Iron Man tunnels onto the island and destroys Strange’s generators, opening him up to attack from the world. Drained by his efforts he is unable to use his armour against Strange. However Carla Strange has been sickened by her fathers’ evil and tosses Stark the flashlight he needs to recharge his armour. Undermined by losing his daughters love Strange surrenders and is returned to prison. So is it any good?: It’s an oddity, generally only remembered because the villain’s name was reused a few months later for a hero. In fact it is quite interesting from a marvel universe point of view even if it isn’t a particularly good story and features quite sketchy Kirby art. The villainous Dr Strange is clearly active as a super villain prior to Iron Man’s creation (presumably prior to the FF and everyone else as well) and is dealt with in his earlier villainous career by the US military. I’m surprised that this has never been picked up upon by a continuity orientated writer but I guess the stories obscurity and the difficulties in using a villain called Dr Strange meant that nobody ever bothered. It’s still interesting to consider that there were super villains with fantastically evil plans around prior to the silver age heroes. The number of nuclear weapons tossed around in this one is pretty astounding as well, while Lee was quick to put an ‘atomic’ or ‘nuclear’adjective on every invention, (the FF have easily triggered nuclear locks on the interior doors on the Baxter building) these are actual A-bombs being used against super villain hideouts. When you throw in the potentially world changing inventions that are wheeled out just to show that Stark is an inventor (something that has been repeated, with new breakthroughs, every issue so far) this is quite a weird issue as far as the tone and high stakes go. Perhaps Bernstein’s DC experience meant he was more willing to write every story as if it was a standalone tale where anything outlandish that happened wouldn’t have consequences but whatever the reason it is quite an oddball tale. Iron Man in fact barely gets to act heroic at all, he is easily controlled by the villain and then spends the issue tunnelling to the island only to run out of power and need the battery of a flashlight to recharge. It is actually Strange himself who gives in when he realises he has turned his own daughter against him. Are there any goofy moments?:On a single page Stark installs nuclear howitzers on naval battleships, invents a flesh healing serum that closes any wound in seconds, shields American space probes from radiation and hands the US army an assault rifle that can destroy fortifications with a single shot. Any one of which would change the world. Here they are just short hand evidence for new readers that Stark is a bit bright and on the side of US military before we move on to the actual story. Trivia:Dr Strange’s henchmen and his island were retroactively connected to the Island of the Exiles and the various war criminals who were based there in one of Olshevsky’s Marvel indexes and then the Marvel Universe the appendix site . Artistically they are quite a good fit although that is in part down to both groups being stock Kirby ‘Evil Foreign soldiers’ visually. Is it a landmark?: not really, although the name obviously had its merits
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Post by humanbelly on May 21, 2011 7:19:10 GMT -5
Strange Tales 108 The Painter of a Thousand Perils By Stan Lee with Robert Bernstein, Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers. Villains: The Painter of a Thousand Perils Guest Appearances: the Fantastic Four
O. M. G. Dear Stan, Bob, Jack, and Dick- Fellas. . . miss the deadline, already. Really. Take a cue from the ancient healer's credo and "Do No Harm". . . ! Man, owen, this comes across as being the worst clunker yet, and you've bravely introduced us to quite a few-! HB
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Post by owene on May 21, 2011 15:47:17 GMT -5
Strange Tales 108 The Painter of a Thousand Perils By Stan Lee with Robert Bernstein, Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers. Villains: The Painter of a Thousand Perils Guest Appearances: the Fantastic Four
O. M. G. Dear Stan, Bob, Jack, and Dick- Fellas. . . miss the deadline, already. Really. Take a cue from the ancient healer's credo and "Do No Harm". . . ! Man, owen, this comes across as being the worst clunker yet, and you've bravely introduced us to quite a few-! HB As dopey as this one is it's nowhere near the worst yet. Out of the ones i've read and reviewed I'd go with Journey into mystery 95 but i haven't actually posted that one here yet. Of the ones I've posted here probably Journey into Mystery 90 Maybe I just expect Thor to be better than the Torch or Ant-Man and get more annoyed about his clunkers
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Post by sharkar on May 25, 2011 22:05:27 GMT -5
As much as I dislike Iron Man's clunky old Kirby costume (grey or gold) as shown on this cover, I have to admit it's far more realistic than the later Silver Age red and gold model, which (depending on artist) looked like it was painted on Tony's body and face. Though I guess there are far worse transgressions in comics than seeing a shiny metallic yet very flexible armor hugging Tony's biceps, triceps, abs, thighs, gluteus maximus ;D...
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Post by sharkar on May 25, 2011 22:13:19 GMT -5
I think the worst thing about this issue is the idiotic picture of Johnny in the corner box. The smiling Thor in the JiM corner box is silly enough; but here, Johnny is smiling (I think) and waving! On a related note: I like your "corner box" image aka avatar, Owen.
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Post by Doctor Bong Crosby on May 26, 2011 2:57:44 GMT -5
As much as I dislike Iron Man's clunky old Kirby costume (grey or gold) as shown on this cover, I have to admit it's far more realistic than the later Silver Age red and gold model, which (depending on artist) looked like it was painted on Tony's body and face. Though I guess there are far worse transgressions in comics than seeing a shiny metallic yet very flexible armor hugging Tony's biceps, triceps, abs, thighs, gluteus maximus ;D... In fact, since Tony's performance as a hero depended (for the most part) entirely on his armor suit, AND he was an inventor, multimillionaire playboy AND CEO as well, how come he was as physically fit as, say, Hawkeye or Daredevil...? ;D
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Post by humanbelly on May 26, 2011 14:45:29 GMT -5
In fact, since Tony's performance as a hero depended (for the most part) entirely on his armor suit, AND he was an inventor, multimillionaire playboy AND CEO as well, how come he was as physically fit as, say, Hawkeye or Daredevil...? ;D Yep, always wondered the same thing-- ESPECIALLY when you consider that for a significant portion of the Silver Age he had an incredibly debilitating heart injury (boy, you can picture him & Aunt May sitting in a couple of porch rockers, exchanging harrowing heart-attack yarns. . . ). There's certainly room to say that using the armor still required considerable effort and exertion on the wearer's part, even with the servo-motor assistance. But then---- he was able to use it just as well when he was paralyzed. It became a big ol' exo-skeleton. You know what I've noticed over the years, though? Tony may indeed be one of the physically toughest heroes out there--- really. He has regularly taken tremendous beatings, burnings, and lambastings where his armor gets pretty much destroyed with him inside it, taking the punishment as well. And yet, more than almost anyone else, he's the guy that fights through it regardless, as long as the armor's holding out somehow. He's certainly not the strongest, he has no superpowers at all, he doesn't have a "mutant healing factor" (you'll find that mentioned more than once in old issues of the X-men)-- he just regularly gets really badly hurt, and pushes past it until he's beaten his foe, and then he's laid up in the hospital. He and Jan may be the most hospitalized superheroes ever, in fact. HB
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 18, 2011 5:10:02 GMT -5
*sigh* Say, Owen-- You have another early silver-age groaner (or even classic masterpiece?) to throw our way? I've glummed myself out reflecting on EMHs, and those posts always chipper me right back up. . .
(yer a pal-- ;D)
HB
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Post by owene on Jun 18, 2011 9:45:20 GMT -5
sorry, i've been away from home a lot the last few weeks and haven't had a chance to post much. Nice to know they were missed
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Post by owene on Jun 18, 2011 9:50:51 GMT -5
Duel to the death with the Vulture. By Stan Lee and Steve Ditko Villains: the Vulture Guest Appearances: none So what happens?: The flying criminal the Vulture is stealing at will across New York City and magazine publisher JJ Jameson wants pictures. The idea intrigues Peter who borrows one of Uncle Ben’s old cameras and heads out to look for the criminal. Peter spots the vulture as he delivers boasting letters to the Police, radio, and Jameson vowing to steal a diamond shipment. Peter is so happy to get the pictures that he fails to notice the Vulture sneaking up on him. He grabs spider-man and deposits him inside a nearby water tower. Out of web fluid and unable to climb the wet interior walls Peter seems trapped but eventually manages to use his great strength to leap free. Peter even manages to retrieve his camera and develop the photos. Realising that he is properly in the super hero game now, Peter redesigns his costume to carry a lot more web fluid and even knocks together a scientific device to counter the vultures flight source. Jameson is happy to buy Peter’s photos and even suggests that he should try to get some of spider-man. Finally having made some money from super heroing Peter goes along with his school friends to see if the Vulture can steal the diamond shipment. Guarded by armed police, helicopters and armoured cars the route seems impregnable but the Vulture pops up from a manhole, steals a bag of diamonds and then heads back down into the sewers to fly away. The vulture reappears from a subway station and Spider-man takes to the rooftops to track him. His spider-sense soon finds the villain and the two tussle in the sky. Triggering the device he built to counter the Vulture’s, apparently magnetic, flight powers the villain loses his power and starts to fall to earth. The police find the stranded Vulture, and the diamonds, on the floor and Peter has the time to take some photos of the villain’s arrest. Jameson pays even better for these photos and Peter is soon able to treat Aunt May to some new kitchen appliances. So is it any good?: Yes, it’s probably my favourite Marvel story so far. So many classic elements of the title are already present. The airborne battles with the Vulture are, while short, the most dynamic fight scenes yet seen in any Marvel title. The scene of Spider-Man trapped in a water tower, out of web fluid, is immediately reminiscent of more highly praised scenes of Ditko drawn heroism and having it set in a water tower is somehow fitting as they are such a fixture of Ditko’s work. Despite the threat of the Vulture. Who is one of the few Marvel villains to date whose debut leaves me wanting to see more the real pleasure here comes in Peter getting one over on Jameson and setting up that other staple of the series, Peter the photographer. Everything seems far more down to earth than in the Lee/Kirby titles, despite spider-man’s range of super powers and gadgets. Ditko tends to draw everything quite realistically. Very stylised but clearly based on real life whereas Kirby is forever drawing weird items and vehicles that have to be described in the captions as ‘atomic tanks’ or whatever. Here you have a fantasised but grounded 60s New York where there are daring jewel robberies and any teenage kid with enough bravery can find himself in the news business. It’s no wonder that spider-man became the hit character who people actually wanted to be the most, despite Peter’s bad luck and desperate circumstances. The one slight wrong step is Peter immediately identifying that the vulture uses magnetism to fly and knocking up a countermeasure in his bedroom. Peter’s scientific genius is of course an established part of the character but to me it adds one too many strings to his bow. The web fluid is so essential to the character that I can overlook just how game changing an invention it is but while I like the way Peter is portrayed as intelligent I’m not sure miraculous inventions knocked up in his room after he’s finished his homework are the best way to show it. All in all an excellent issue with dynamic, moody art. Are there any goofy moments? Why does the Vulture get to wear his costume, complete with wings in prison? Trivia:The Staten Island Grain silo the Vulture uses as a base here reappeared in issue 241, the same issue finally gave the vulture an origin. The photos Peter sells to Jameson are for Now Magazine rather than the Daily Bugle Is it a landmark?: Yes, as far as I know the Vulture is still going strong .
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Post by owene on Jun 18, 2011 9:55:14 GMT -5
Still on spider-man 2
The uncanny threat of the terrible tinkerer. By Stan Lee and Steve Ditko Villains: the Tinkerer, Mysterio Guest Appearances: none So what happens?: Peter is so excited about getting to help electronics expert Dr Cobbwell in his free time that he actually stands up to Flash Thompson’s taunts. Cobbwell’s first job for Peter is to pick up his radio from the repair shop of the mysterious ‘Tinkerer’ who had been repairing it for the bargain price of a dime.
Peter is suspicious about the prices and the way his spider-sense keeps getting set off in the shop but brings Cobbwell his radio.
Peter soon finds that his spider-sense keeps going off whenever he is near the radio and opens it up to find a bunch of weird technology inside.
Going back to the Tinkerer’s shop as spider-man, he finds the old man being helped by a bunch of aliens. They had been planting spying devices inside the radios he repaired and were gathering all sorts of scientific and defence secrets.
Spider-man attempts to battle the aliens but is soon imprisoned in a futuristic cell. Luckily it comes with tiny airholes and he manages to send a web through one of the holes to hit the controls holding the cell sealed.
The battle restarts and soon causes a fire to spread through the Tinkerer’s shop, the aliens escape in the smoke and Spider-man is left holding a rubber face mask. Maybe the Tinkerer was also an alien?
Passersby blame spider-man for the fire but he is glad to have stopped the alien threat.
So is it any good?: The plot is stupid, famously so to the point that it was seen as something that needed retconning out of existence. In fact reading the story knowing about the retcon it makes even less sense. It’s clear that it definitely was meant to be an alien invasion story and a Ditko "alien’s are among us" story is far from a bad thing.
Once you get past the plot, the art and a lot of the characterisation of Peter and Flash is actually very good. I know we are meant to identify with Peter’s hard time at school but his unrepentant desire to spend his weekend helping scientists and need to put down his classmates regular high school lives actually makes him seem fairly unlikeable at times.
He is someone who has a hard time but really doesn’t help himself much.
It’s nowhere near as good as the issues lead story but it gives us a better idea of who Peter is and features some nice Ditko art. For a back up story it’s not that bad.
Are there any goofy moments? The whole alien plot is fairly goofy, and even more so given that it was later retconned to be a bunch of crooks in rubber masks, a bunch of crooks who continue to wear the masks and speak about earthlings even when they think they are alone.
The ‘only charge a dime so that important people with access to defence secrets come to us for all their radio repairing needs’ aspect of the story is one of the weirder super villain plans.
Trivia: Mysterio doesn’t really appear in this story, it was retroactively decided that he was playing one of the aliens. This information came to light in Peter Parker 50 which also provided quite a bit of extra detail on this story. I’m not sure if it was that issue, or the Tinkerer’s next appearance in Amazing 160 that revealed that there weren’t actually any aliens involved with the Tinkerer.
Is it a landmark?: not really, the Tinkerer has appeared quite a lot over the years but largely in a supporting role.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 19, 2011 5:17:54 GMT -5
Ahhh, back in the ol' comfort zone. Thanks a million, owen!
Been many years since I read this issue in the first Essential Elements volume. Am I correct in remembering that the portrayal of the Vulture's one-bird, panic-inducing crime-wave was a wee bit over the top? The entirety of the New York City law-enforcement community is so unable to cope with a senior citizen in a flying bird suit, that said old-guy is able to publicly taunt them, announce his crimes, and still carry them off?
Vulture is the perfect example, though, of a villain who, even as a kid, I thought was an implausible threat or challenge for Spidey. . . and yet was happy to buy into him unreservedly 'cause he was fun & handled well. I mean, the creaky old-guy angle is what's always been the enjoyable hook with him, along with crotchety amorality and sense of pride and entitlement. I mean-- the guy's got nothin'-! (Or didn't for a long time) Like Doc Ock, he has no superpowers whatsoever. Heck, like Ock, he's spent most of his life in markedly non-physical activity. Why, Uncle Ben was probably more fit for a brisk hand-to-hand with Spidey, y'know?
It probably would be acceptable to assume that Spidey was hampered in those earlier battles by the fact that he couldn't actually let loose at all for fear of killing the old grub outright. Hence, the battles become protracted exercises in battling a determined foe even while trying to preserve his fragile corporeal form.
Thanks again, owen-- feelin' better already!
HB
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 19, 2011 14:59:03 GMT -5
The one slight wrong step is Peter immediately identifying that the vulture uses magnetism to fly and knocking up a countermeasure in his bedroom. Peter’s scientific genius is of course an established part of the character but to me it adds one too many strings to his bow. The web fluid is so essential to the character that I can overlook just how game changing an invention it is but while I like the way Peter is portrayed as intelligent I’m not sure miraculous inventions knocked up in his room after he’s finished his homework are the best way to show it. I remember the director of the Spider-Man movie made a similar comment a few years ago. Peter is almost a young Reed Richards at this stage, isn't it even stated at some point that with more funds he could have achieved similar results? His intellect will fluctuate a bit over the years but his ability to produce gizmos like this almost out of thin air is possibly his less realistic trait, especially without funds for parts.
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Post by owene on Jun 20, 2011 15:45:51 GMT -5
Ahhh, back in the ol' comfort zone. Thanks a million, owen! Been many years since I read this issue in the first Essential Elements volume. Am I correct in remembering that the portrayal of the Vulture's one-bird, panic-inducing crime-wave was a wee bit over the top? The entirety of the New York City law-enforcement community is so unable to cope with a senior citizen in a flying bird suit, that said old-guy is able to publicly taunt them, announce his crimes, and still carry them off? yeah. It's a difficult one, you can certainly look at it that way and after years and years of marvel comics it does seem a bit overwrought. but the issue really plays up the idea of flight being totally amazing and unstoppable. Other than the human torch, Iron Man, Thor and loki (i'm sure i've missed a few) there haven't really been any flying characters in the MU to this point and aside from the Torch none of those really fly freely, Iron man is still using roller skates for long distance travel. With the realism of Ditko's work it really does make something that would later be taken for granted like flight out of the ordinary and something the cops couldnt deal with. Given just how amazing flight or whatever would be it's weird that there is just no wonder associated with it in comics today, as corny as the vulture is they do get across this feeling that the cops just have no idea how to deal with a flying villain. you are right about the strength thing, I dont think Peter has really been shown to be amazingly super strong yet but you do wonder how the vulture or ock could really stand up to him. Of course both of them get by by being quite bloodthirsty. The first ock story is a really moody creepy one.
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Post by owene on Jun 20, 2011 15:53:54 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #15 The Mad Thinker and his awesome android By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers. Villains: Mad Thinker, Awesome Android Guest Appearances: Willie Lumpkin So What Happens?: The team are brought together at the Baxter Building by Reed sending up the signal flare. He has been working on creating artificial life and seems to have made some breakthroughs but the alert is actually to warn his teammates that gangsters are converging on New York and clearly planning something. The gangsters are in town to meet with the Mad Thinker, a criminal genius who is able to plan for any eventuality. He is determined to take over New York in order to loot the Baxter Building and he signs up the mobsters to be his henchmen. The Thinker engineers job opportunities for our heroes, Johnny leaves the team to help out in his cousin’s circus, Sue is snapped up by a passing movie producer, Ben gets a wrestling contract and Reed is offered a job working for a New England electronics firm. With the Baxter Building empty the Thinker waits for a meteor to strike New York and knock out its power before moving in and studying all of Reed’s inventions. The team all get bored of their new lives and return to the Baxter Building only to find themselves locked out as it is surrounded by a crystal shell. The Torch’s flame gets them in, the Thing deals with the gangsters inside and Reed manages to carry them past his own knockout gas traps. Finally they are faced by an artificial lifeform who Reed recognises from his own unfinished plans. While it can deal easily enough with the Torch and Thing the invisible Sue is able to get to the off-switch Reed had included in his plans. The still have the Thinker to face and his arsenal comprised of Reed’s own weapons. Luckily Reed had planned for this and at that point mailman Willie Lumpkin presses a button downstairs that shuts down all of Reed’s technology. This is the one thing the Thinker hadn’t planned for and he is carted off to prison. So is it any good?:I’m not a huge fan of the Thinker because unless you allow him a lot of off-panel successes his gimmick is essentially that he thinks everything through and never ever gets things right. The writers also have to always include him knowing about stuff he couldn’t possibly account for while also being undone by something fairly obvious that he probably should have worked out. He is one of those characters who if they existed and were as intelligent as they seemed would be doing all sorts of stuff well away from super heroes but there’s no story in that so instead you just get them tripping themselves up over and over until they lose all credibility. This story does in fact allow him to brag about previous successes away from super heroes and allows him to outdo Reed by improving on his ideas for artificial life. Until the huge plot hole at the end it is in fact a pretty good story if you get past your preconceptions based on later Thinker stories. The preamble allows Kirby to draw circuses and wrestlers and Hollywood film sets, three of his favourite sets of visuals, there are also lots of shots of classic Warner Brothers gangster types with tommy guns and cigarettes hanging from their lips. The Thinker himself allows Jack to ape Rodin and the Android is just a classically bizarre Kirby creation. So it’s a great issue to look at and also one that contains a lot of varied action scenes involving the whole team. While we are still in quite a restrictive panel grid we are moving towards the more bombastic dynamic art style of later years. The early sections of the story designed to showcase their powers and get them away from the Baxter building are fun but don’t make a lot of sense. Reed gathers the team to warn them of the gangster threat and then jumps at the chance to go work for an electronics firm while the team take a break, they even stay on the break after New York is paralysed by a meteor strike. I did actually like the scenes at the electronics firm with the scientific and business leaders unsure of why Reed needs to stretch so much when he could just tell them things. It’s a nicely funny scene and a million miles from the idea of everyone being in awe of Reed the world’s recognised super genius. The Thinker’s plan is quite cool, I liked the use of the natural disaster to get past the Baxter Building security but the ending is a bit silly, if there is a button that shuts down all of Reed’s weapons and Reed is going to spend the entire time in the Baxter building worrying about Sue’s safety why didn’t Reed press it himself? I guess the idea that Reed would get their mailman to come along and turn off all the inventions rather than doing it itself is the sort of illogical thing the Thinker just can’t account for. As they team supposedly gather at the Baxter building by chance and find it encased in crystal I’m not sure when Reed decided to get in touch with their mailman and asked him to come along at 4PM and press the magic button but then I guess Lee and Kirby weren’t sure either, or that they never even thought about the ending at all until it came time to draw that last page. Despite the lack of logic it’s a good read that falls a little between the style of the early and classic issues. It still feels close to one of the issues from the first year, the team gets split up in a nonsensical way in order to advance the story much like in issue 9 and it all ends because someone unrelated comes along and presses a reset button. However in between the characters are actually working as a team using their super powers to solve problems physically in a way they rarely actually did in the early issues and the villain is motivated by acquiring the technology stored in the Baxter Building rather than more basic crimes. As with the team landing on the moon in issue 13 and getting a parade to celebrate it in issue 14 it seems to find the creators realising they can base their stories on the world of their own imaginations and have the events there matter as landmarks rather than the basing the stories on the real world or emulating DC comics. When the Thinker out does Reed using Reed’s own plans for artificial life it is an important moment in the marvel universe because we are starting to see Reed’s scientific breakthroughs as more than just window dressing or a writer’s shorthand to show he is smart. We are starting to see something recognisable as the (fairly) internally consistent Marvel Universe taking form with its own history of events that will matter beyond the story in question. It’s not there yet, it is still totally absent from all the books other than FF and even here it is competing with the earlier more traditional super hero style but it is starting to exist. They are clearly starting to trust themselves more and growing in confidence with every story. Are there any goofy moments?Reed holds up a jar containing a weird fish like specimen and claims to have only been able to create single celled life forms so far. I’m not sure how many science classes Lee and Kirby (or maybe Reed?) took. It’s a prime issue for sexist Sue depictions. When everyone else is feeling sad about the team splitting up she is happy because she will get to wear some different clothes from now on. She also goes invisibly through the streets of New York as she can’t bear anyone to see her in her hair curlers. One of the Thinker’s previous successes came when he knew in advance a passing monkey would set the evidence linking him to a crime on fire. I guess when you are that sure of what will happen next you can afford to leave the evidence lying on the floor in the first place. Trivia:I can’t seem to find any references to suggest that the Storm’s cousin Bones ever appeared again. Just one more case of Lee and Kirby’s obsession with circuses. The Mad Thinker is one of the most prominent Marvel characters to never be given a real name. Is it a landmark?:Yes, the Mad Thinker has been a persistent foe and the Awesome Android a cult favourite over the years.
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Post by owene on Jun 20, 2011 15:56:29 GMT -5
The one slight wrong step is Peter immediately identifying that the vulture uses magnetism to fly and knocking up a countermeasure in his bedroom. Peter’s scientific genius is of course an established part of the character but to me it adds one too many strings to his bow. The web fluid is so essential to the character that I can overlook just how game changing an invention it is but while I like the way Peter is portrayed as intelligent I’m not sure miraculous inventions knocked up in his room after he’s finished his homework are the best way to show it. I remember the director of the Spider-Man movie made a similar comment a few years ago. Peter is almost a young Reed Richards at this stage, isn't it even stated at some point that with more funds he could have achieved similar results? His intellect will fluctuate a bit over the years but his ability to produce gizmos like this almost out of thin air is possibly his less realistic trait, especially without funds for parts. One of the spider-man/FF or spider-man/torch mini series stated something about him being as good as reed at the same age. I liked the mini but it kind of oversold both peter's ability and his connection to the FF It's just classic stan though, as soon as someone is known to be a scientist they can make do literally anything out of nothing. Even Don Blake was at it in some of the early stories
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 20, 2011 19:53:29 GMT -5
I remember the director of the Spider-Man movie made a similar comment a few years ago. Peter is almost a young Reed Richards at this stage, isn't it even stated at some point that with more funds he could have achieved similar results? His intellect will fluctuate a bit over the years but his ability to produce gizmos like this almost out of thin air is possibly his less realistic trait, especially without funds for parts. One of the spider-man/FF or spider-man/torch mini series stated something about him being as good as reed at the same age. I liked the mini but it kind of oversold both peter's ability and his connection to the FF It's just classic stan though, as soon as someone is known to be a scientist they can make do literally anything out of nothing. Even Don Blake was at it in some of the early stories Yes, early in the Hulk's run in Tales to Astonish, Bruce Banner (a nuclear physicist, mind you) had a whole string of projects "in the pipeline" for the military. One of these was a functioning time machine. (I kid you not. It could only go forward-- so I suppose this is a glaring limitation for Bruce's abilities. As I recall, Reed was pretty much relying on Doom's time machine tech at that point. . . ). HB
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 26, 2011 16:55:12 GMT -5
Owen, I was going through the older pages of this topic (check your email for the reason why ;D) and Tales to Astonish #37 is missing, despite it being an Ant-Man story. Is it intentional or did you just forget it?
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Post by owene on Jun 28, 2011 12:59:36 GMT -5
Not sure how I missed this landmark Trapped by the Protecter By Stan Lee with Larry Leiber, Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers. Villains: The Protector Guest Appearances: none So What Happens?: Gerald Marsh, prominent jeweller reports a robbery to the police, and of course unknowingly to the ever present ants who monitor the city for Ant-man. Ant-Man heads across the city to interview the crime victim and learns that he had been robbed by a masked villain calling himself the Protector who had used a ray gun to turn sections of the shop to dust before robbing Marsh. Ant-Man leaves, monitored by a mystery figure as he goes. Back at his lab Pym sets his ants to watch all of the cities jewellery stores. He soon hears of the Protector arriving to extort another shop keeper. Ant-Man throws a necklace worth of pearls on the floor to trip him up but the Protector fights back with a stolen water pistol and attempts to wash Pym down the drain. Pym is rescued by a passing ant but the Protector escapes. Pym decides to set a trap, renting a shop he waits for the Protector to come around and try to extort money from him. The Protector duly obliges and leaves Pym with a disintegrated counter and a demand for $300 a week. However the villain leaves with a few ants on board his car and Pym heads off in pursuit, able to follow their electrical signals with his helmet. He follows the signals to a deserted tenement building but when he goes inside to investigate he gets caught up in a vacuum cleaner. Luckily Pym still has the strength to rip his way out and the foresight to have sent a bunch of ants to the nearest police station where they line themselves up to spell out directions to the Protector’s lair. The police arrive and unmask the Protector as Gerald Marsh. So is it any good?:No, I quite like the hulking Protector design which plays to Kirby and Ayers strengths but the whole thing is shot down by the story. All the other Marvel heroes had quite ambiguous relationships with authority, it was one of the things that set the tone of the books, Ant-Man seems to always rely on the authorities arriving and saving him at the end. This is when he isn’t being saved by his ants from meeting his demise falling down the drain or managing at the last moment to punch his way out of a paper vacuum cleaner bag. Despite his amazing powers he never fails to give the impression that he is actually less capable than the average person forever in danger from everyday objects. Pym still doesn’t have any personality and Lee and Leiber are still writing sub-Scooby Doo mysteries that expect you to care about the identity of villains in stories that have only had one speaking part. Amazingly it is a thirteen page story that manages to drag. . Are there any goofy moments? Ant-Man’s catapult can apparently be programmed to shoot his tiny form to addresses all over the city, he of course has time to summon a big pile of ants to cushion his landing. It clearly doesn’t always work, the second time he tries it Pym has to land in a baby carriage after the ants fail to make the necessary landing pad. The Protector stealing a water pistol from a convenient kid and using it to wash Ant-Man towards a drain is pretty funny. As is the sight of him trying to glue shut the vacuum cleaner bag he has trapped Ant-Man in. Does any other hero get stuck in such lame traps? Or win the day in such lame ways? Turning on a fan to blow vacuum cleaner dirt in the villains (goggled) face so it hurts his eyes? Trivia: The Protector never appeared again, probably because the name has been reused a bunch of times. Still it takes something for a villain this old to have escaped the clutches of all the various retro writers over the years. Is it a landmark?:No. Where can I read it?: In the Essential Ant Man or the first Ant Man/Giant Man Masterwork.
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Post by owene on Jun 28, 2011 13:22:29 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery #93 Thor versus the mysterious Radio-active man By Stan Lee with Robert Bernstein, Jack Kirby and Dick Ayers Villains: Radio-Active Man Guest Appearances: none So what happens?:Don Blake is helping with the international relief effort on the Indian border with China. He decides that his talents would be better spent repulsing the Chinese as Thor than just helping deal with the wounded and quickly manages to deal with a tank division and seal the pass between the two nations that the Chinese have been using to attack. The Communists vow revenge and hand the job to top scientist Chen-Lu. The nuclear physicist manages to bombard himself with enough radiation to turn himself green and give himself complete control over all forms of radioactivity. He is quickly spirited away in a submarine and dropped off in New York City. His arrival makes quite a splash, especially as Don Blake is in the middle of an operation and can’t change into Thor until it is over. Once he does arrive he finds that both his hammer and his lightning bolts have no effect on Chen-Lu. Furthermore any damage that did get through Chen-Lu’s shields would cause him to explode with the power of an H-bomb in the middle of New York. Chen-Lu radioactively hypnotises Thor and orders him to throw his hammer away. Thor does so rather more fervently than Chen-Lu wanted and tosses it into the Hudson. As Radio-active Man goes searching for the hammer Thor becomes Don Blake again and escapes the hypnosis. Blake manages to escape to his office and jury rigs his x-ray machine to scan the harbour for Thor’s hammer. He drives down to the river and dives down to retrieve the hammer. Lame Dr Blake has a hard time reaching the river bottom but eventually manages it and contact with the Hammer turns him back into Thor. He flies back to find Radio-Active Man and before the villain can react has him wrapped up in a cyclone that will carry him back to China. He lands with a huge nuclear explosion. So is it any good?: The art is superb, I’m a huge fan of 70s Kirby, all prominent black borders around stylised figures and solid black shading everywhere and despite it's vintage this issue really has that look, it’s far better than most 1963 Kirby. The points of view are imaginative, the science all Kirby-techy and the story told with brilliantly dynamic style. It is the closest issue so far to the look of Kirby original pencils. A great ink job by Dick Ayers. I really liked the communist response to Thor’s intervention in Asia. Ok the story is barely concealed anxiety about Chinese nuclear power but you get the impression that Chen-Lu is a genius and genuinely patriotic as well as having a bizarre, menacing design. While he is villainous and his communist masters are painted with the same broad strokes (and glowing yellow colours) as in previous communist stories Chen-Lu himself comes across as a worthwhile foe for Thor, probably the first one we’ve seen apart from Loki. The problem is that thor and chen-Lu don’t meet until page 9 of a 13 page story and all the good work on Radio-Active man’s origin goes out of the window in the rushed conclusion. With the thematic coherence and almost limitless power of generation and control over radioactivity was there any need to give Chen-Lu a totally unrelated hypnotism power whose only purpose is to stop us getting a real Thor/Radio-Active Man battle and causing some truly stupid Don Blake scenes. By the time Blake is back as Thor and facing the villain again we are a few panels from the end and Thor wraps everything up with an inter-continental cyclone that Radio-Active Man doesn’t even get a chance to react to. It’s a frustrating issue. They create a worthwhile super villain and a few years later there would have been a multi-page, large panel slugfest and most likely a second issue to the story. But we are a few years away from that kind of thing. We are still in the period of 13 page stories with a strict perpendicular grid of small panels with stories being concluded by the arrival of a new or inconsistent power. It’s a shame because the Radio-Active Man didn’t appear in Thor again and was soon relegated to being a henchman in the Masters of evil. For a well conceived character whose powers mirror the contemporary fears about radiation that is a shame. It’s very tempting to lay the blame on Bernstein. This feels like a DC story, a lot of Marvel’s from this period do. But I think it is largely the constraints of having to wrap everything up neatly in 13 pages. Kirby doesn’t really help to be honest, I think a lot of the silly stuff after the hypnotism must have largely been the scripter trying to explain away the weird stuff they found in the art but Blake inventing an underwater scanner from things hanging around his surgery is a bit much. Are there any goofy moments? “After an hour of frantic electronic experiments” is the writer’s way of covering Blake turning an X-ray into a screen that receives perfect pictures of the bottom of the Hudson River and can track down Thor’s hammer. Ok Not goofy as such but Bernstein seems very reluctant to call the Indian army Indians, maybe because of the prevalence of Westerns?, so instead he repeatedly calls them Hindus. Kirby and the colourist on the other hand has drawn a bunch of slightly swarthy white guys in Sikh turbans making the hindu comments even stranger. Trivia: Don Blake apparently drives a Rolls Royce. No wonder he can afford to swan around the world helping battle communism. Radio-Active Man is an interesting case. In many ways originally nothing more than a personification of the fear of communist china. He would evolve into a regular crook, then someone who saw himself as a hero of his homeland and eventually into someone who could be a protagonist in Thunderbolts. Kurt Busiek seems to have been something as a fan, using him twice in Untold Tales of Spider-Man as well as prominently in Marvels and in flashbacks in Thunderbolts. Is it a landmark?: Yes, Chen-Lu might not have appeared all that often in Thor but he has turned up in a lot of other places over the years. Where can I read it?: Essential Thor volume 1 or the first Masterworks or omnibus volumes
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 28, 2011 17:00:20 GMT -5
Thanks for that TtA The JiM issue is interesting, I've always believed that Stan was more confortable creating enemies for Thor than he was for Marvel's other powerhouse, the Hulk. Chen-Lu is the type of all-round character that could have kept the Hulk's book afloat a bit longer, and with gamma radiation powers he could have made a tough opponent. He was cleverly used in similar fashion in Avengers/JLA, when he produces kryptonite radiation against Superman.
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