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Post by goingtogeorgia on Oct 10, 2010 14:09:34 GMT -5
Hi!
I'm a college student seeking suggestions for doing research for a paper that includes characters from the Avengers. My paper examines how women were portrayed in comics from 1965-1980, and I'm hoping to specifically include Wasp, Black Widow and Scarlet Witch (and some non-Avengers: Wonder Woman, Invisible Girl/Woman and Phoenix).
So here's my problem: I'm not a collector and, as a college student, I absolutely cannot afford to buy the issues I need to look at, even reissues, since I need at least 20. Does anyone here have suggestions for how I could find them (and/or the relevant WW & X-Men issues), perhaps online or in a comics library? I've tried looking for private collectors but haven't had any luck. I live in San Francisco and can travel to the larger Bay Area, if anyone knows a person or an archive near here. Thank you in advance.
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Post by dlw66 on Oct 10, 2010 19:28:02 GMT -5
Hi, and welcome!
I would suggest seeking out a large public library or college library that would have a good-sized database for researching inter-library loans.
It sounds to me like you should have the various DVD-ROMs of Marvel Comics. These were available in the mid-2000s, but are generally only for sale nowadays at inflated prices on eBay. You would need to obtain the DVD-ROMs for the Fantastic Four, Avengers, and X-Men -- this would get you through much of your research for the Invisible Girl, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, and Marvel Girl/Phoenix.
For the Wasp, you might also want to get ahold of the Essential Ant-Man volumes 1 and 2.
Additionally, for the Black Widow -- there was a recently-issued hardcover that contained reprints of her adventures in a comic called Amazing Adventures. You would also need to get your hands on the Essential Daredevil, probably volumes 3 and 4, as she co-starred in that title for several years.
As to Wonder Woman, many of her adventures are reprinted in a paperback series called "Showcase Presents". There was also a trade paperback collection (two volumes, if I recall) of the stories that were published around 1970 when the character was de-powered for a few years.
A search for these titles or characters on Amazon should get you specific information on exact titles, volumes, etc.
I hope this helps -- someday, when the paper is all done and graded A+, you should post it somewhere! Be sure to let us know where, as I for one would like to read the results of your research!
Best of luck,
Doug
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Post by bobc on Oct 12, 2010 12:37:56 GMT -5
Basically the female super-heroes were all kidnapped every other issue. This started to change in the late 70's, particularly in the X-men when females like Storm, Polaris and Phoenix were the most powerful people on the team.
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 12, 2010 16:37:14 GMT -5
One of my "favorite" negative portrayals of women was the way the women often talked about themselves. I actually remember phrases like "I know I'm only a woman, but I have to do something," , "If only Reed were here. How can a woman possibly understand these controls?" or "We need to wrap this fight up quickly. There's a sale at Bloomingdales." Stan didn't even let them take themselves seriously.
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Post by goingtogeorgia on Oct 13, 2010 15:46:18 GMT -5
I actually remember phrases like "I know I'm only a woman, but I have to do something," , "If only Reed were here. How can a woman possibly understand these controls?" or "We need to wrap this fight up quickly. There's a sale at Bloomingdales." Ahh see this is exactly the kind of thing I need! Unfortunately I can't include quotes unless I have specific comics. Even if I can't find the issues themselves, anywhere that lists relevant quotes with issue numbers is also great. Thanks for the feedback, everyone. If you have any more ideas I'd love to hear them and I'll certainly post a link to the paper once it's finished in December.
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Post by sharkar on Oct 13, 2010 20:07:34 GMT -5
I live in San Francisco and can travel to the larger Bay Area, if anyone knows a person or an archive near here. Thank you in advance. San Fran, eh? Then you are probably already aware of the famous comics historian Trina Robbins--she's based in SF. As you may know, her specialty is women and comics. I have her book "The Great Women Super Heroes " and I can recommend it as a basic chronological overview of comic book heroines. It contains a chapter on the very time period you're interested in (plus b&w reproductions of panels from DC and Marvel comics from that time, most are captioned with issue numbers). The book can be ordered from her website...and her contact info--her email address--is available on her website, too.
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Post by bobc on Oct 15, 2010 9:05:49 GMT -5
Hee hee! Spiderwaspie I love that stuff too! Remember when the Hate Monger turned his ray on the Fantastic Four and their real feelings about Sue came out? The Human Torch shoved her and said "Outta the way, USELESS!!" And then there was the time Doctor Doom set up some hologram showing Reed swapping spit with some other chick, and Sue shrieked "I thought you loved me?!!" and Reed replied "LOVE YOU?!! You're lucky I even TOLERATE YOU!!"
Hee hee!
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Post by goingtogeorgia on Oct 19, 2010 17:36:50 GMT -5
Hee hee! Spiderwaspie I love that stuff too! Remember when the Hate Monger turned his ray on the Fantastic Four and their real feelings about Sue came out? The Human Torch shoved her and said "Outta the way, USELESS!!" And then there was the time Doctor Doom set up some hologram showing Reed swapping spit with some other chick, and Sue shrieked "I thought you loved me?!!" and Reed replied "LOVE YOU?!! You're lucky I even TOLERATE YOU!!" Hee hee! Seriously guys stop torturng me! Which issues are these in???
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 19, 2010 22:13:05 GMT -5
Hee hee! Spiderwaspie I love that stuff too! Remember when the Hate Monger turned his ray on the Fantastic Four and their real feelings about Sue came out? The Human Torch shoved her and said "Outta the way, USELESS!!" And then there was the time Doctor Doom set up some hologram showing Reed swapping spit with some other chick, and Sue shrieked "I thought you loved me?!!" and Reed replied "LOVE YOU?!! You're lucky I even TOLERATE YOU!!" Hee hee! Seriously guys stop torturng me! Which issues are these in??? lol. Wish it was that easy. I clearly remember the incident Bob is referring to too but pinpointing issues isn't as easy. I'll try thumbing through my Essentials and let you know if I spot anything.
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Post by humanbelly on Oct 20, 2010 6:56:39 GMT -5
Seriously guys stop torturng me! Which issues are these in??? lol. Wish it was that easy. I clearly remember the incident Bob is referring to too but pinpointing issues isn't as easy. I'll try thumbing through my Essentials and let you know if I spot anything. Actually, GTG (Heh. . . you could disguise yourself as "Galactus the Great" or similar--) if you're not terribly familiar with the canon of Marvel you really, really might want to consider picking up the Marvel Encyclopedia as well. And Wikipedia is pretty darned thorough with its entries. Look up Thundra (FF #129) for instance. She was an early-ish attempt at creating a powerhouse-type female character. Hate Monger appeared in FF #21 (just looked through the covers at Mile High Comics-- knew his first appearance was really his main one for quite a long time). But if your looking for long-term trends, I don't think you'll have any option beyond picking up the relatively inexpensive early volumes of Essential Fantastic Four, Essential Avengers, Essential Classic X-Men (I believe), and Essential Ant-Man (Sharkar, does that indeed exist?) and really buckle down for a couple of weeks of reading, note-taking, & collating-- (Boy, and that's just for the Marvel part of the equation-!) This in fact sounds like an enviable project to most of 'round here, I imagine. If only we weren't overtaken by the rigors of an over-scheduled middle-age. . . HB
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Post by Shiryu on Oct 20, 2010 10:34:53 GMT -5
Have you tried looking on peer to peer software for scanned comics? pretty much everything Marvel and DC have ever published is there, and, being for reserch purposes, I don't suppose there would be any legal issue as long as you delete the files after your work is done.
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Post by sharkar on Oct 20, 2010 14:05:02 GMT -5
But if your looking for long-term trends, I don't think you'll have any option beyond picking up the relatively inexpensive early volumes of Essential Fantastic Four, Essential Avengers, Essential Classic X-Men (I believe), and Essential Ant-Man (Sharkar, does that indeed exist?) Yes, HB, believe it or not--an Essential Ant-Man volume does exist! (As does Essential Human Torch--those god-awful Johnny Storm stories from Strange Tales!) My two cents: The counsel provided by HB and Doug is probably the best way to go here. The Marvel Essentials collections are a great option and if one is interested in older comics (beyond securing some quotes for a term paper), then taking the plunge and buying these now would pay dividends in the future in terms of further research and/or just personal interest in the topic. The Essentials (and the 4-volume paperback collection of the de-powered Wonder Woman Doug mentioned) are available through Amazon and other online vendors. And local Borders stores and Barnes and Noble often have Essentials too but if $$$ is a real issue at this time, I would think that one could go to the bookstores, grab a latte, and settle in and thumb through the books for a couple of hours. Also, reading at least some of the actual stories will help you get a feel for the characters and situations involved. If you just use quotes out of context (even if you're citing the issue it appeared in), then you run the risk of misinterpreting/misrepresenting the characters/situations in question. HB mentioned a great website (Milehighcomics) where one can see covers, but I would think a simple search engine would suffice: for example, a search of a couple of the keywords Bob mentioned: "Fantastic Four+Hate-Monger" would have returned FF #21 as the result. And as for the Dr. Doom hologram scenario (also mentioned by Bob), I'll save everyone the trouble of looking it up : it's in FF Annual #2.
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Post by bobc on Oct 20, 2010 14:48:07 GMT -5
Georgia--I have always wanted to research how many times the Wasp was captured in the early days of the Avengers. Maybe I'll come up with a list for you this weekend. It really was virtually every issue. At one point it got so bad that she was kidnapped and they didn't even bother to show how it happened. Sue Richards was also captured a lot.
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Post by spiderwasp on Oct 20, 2010 21:37:20 GMT -5
Make sure you check out the backup story in FF # 11 (1st appearance of one of my favorite characters - the Impossible Man). Here's a sample of the dialogue:
Reed: We've come a long way since those early days...and had many almost unbelievable adventures! Sue: But they were your adventures -- the three of you---much more than mine! Reed: Sue! What are you talking about? What do you mean? Sue: I-I hadn't wanted to mention it Reed, but I've gotten some letters lately--some disturbing letters! Ben: You? I can't believe it! Let us see 'em Sue! Sue: There! A number of readers have said that I don't contribute enough to you -- you'd be-- better off without me! And perhaps they're right! Reed: She's not exaggerating, Ben! Look! Ben: I never expected anything like this!
They then go on to cite examples of Sue bravely tripping a Skrull and pushing a button (Which she and the Wasp often did)
Ben later says "If you readers wanna see women fightin' all the time then you go see lady wrestlers!"
Until I typed this, I don't think I'd ever noticed how much they overused the exclamation mark! It virtually came at the end of every sentence that wasn't a question! I guess it was just a part of Stan's love of hyperbole!
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Post by bobc on Oct 21, 2010 9:35:31 GMT -5
Waspie--I remember that!! I remember that exchange, and thinking, well duh!
Yeah definitely it was Sue and the Wasp who got the shaft in the early years. How can any of us forget when Hank Pym sent his poor wife into battle against the Sub-Mariner with a safety pin stuck to her wrist? And it bent when she stung him? Then Hank really upped the ante by giving her a compressed air gun as a stinger! You know, like the stuff you buy to clean the inside of your computer! Good GOD it's a wonder the Wasp wasn't dead by issue #1!!
Even my beloved Mark Millar made a reference to the Wasp's uselessness in the Ultimates. When the Liberators captured all of the world's super heroes except the Wasp, one of the soldiers made mention of that fact--and the other soldier replied "Who cares? Who cares about someone who can make herself smaller and weaker?" He had a point! And when they finally captured the Wasp, one of the thugs said "How did someone as pathetic as you even get a spot on this team? I mean is that what you do? Sneak around looking for a REAL super hero?"
Hee hee! Fortunately things got better for Jan over the years!
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