Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 19, 2010 12:33:07 GMT -5
Which seven avengers would you choose as the worst ever in the history of the team? I nominate Ant-Man (Eric O'Grady), Ares, Iron Man (alternate teenager version), the Jack of Hearts, Jessica Jones, Sentry and, speaking of teenagers, the NEW Vision.
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Post by starfoxxx on Jun 19, 2010 13:28:23 GMT -5
Nice question, bong, but it will be tough for me. I don't even consider some "members"( such as Two-gun kid, Whizzer, teen Tony, moira brandon (wtf?), Swordsman II, Magdalene, etc......) as "real" members, so it may take me awhile to figure this one out. I'm interested in the replies , though.
But i know the top of my list will be CRYSTAL.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 19, 2010 13:41:51 GMT -5
I don't know that I can stop at seven... Ares, Echo/Ronin, Deathcry (maybe the stupidest name ever...), Sentry, Jessica Jones, Silverclaw, Captain Britain, (nope, can't stop at seven) Sersi, Rage, Sandman, Wolverine, D-Man and Valkyrie.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 19, 2010 14:03:16 GMT -5
I always love these Top Ten/Countdown/List type threads. But--- in light of how hopelessly diffuse the criteria for being an official "Avenger" has become (Do we consider all Young Avengers, New Avengers, Initiative Avengers, Avengers Forever Future Avengers, Dark Avengers, etc? How about length of membership? Do Reed & Sue qualify?)-- are there perhaps more specific criteria we should adhere to?
Just an honest question before I chime in. . .
HB
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Post by bobc on Jun 19, 2010 17:35:34 GMT -5
I'll stick to the non-Bendis Avengers:
1. Reed/Sue: great characters but they didn't belong in the Avengers. Reed Richards is a preeminent leader and has been for decades so just having him hanging out in the Avengers as a "team player" was awkward. Sue, under the right circumstances, might have worked on her own.
2. Dr. Druid. Self explanatory.
3. Two Gun Kid. No.
4. US Agent/Living Lightning/Firebird/Darkhawk (most of the W Coast Avengers never did a thing for me--it's all a big dull blur)
5. Gilgamesh. Good God.
6. Rage. I thought black exploitation ended in the 70's but boy was I wrong.
7. Silver Claw. Just didn't float my boat.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 19, 2010 19:57:54 GMT -5
I should probably give this more thought but I'm just going to chime in anyway.
1. Sentry - The worst character in the history of Marvel.
2. Gilgamesh - Not sure what ever made anyone think this character would fit.
3. Ronin/echo - Even for Bendis, this was bad.
4. Jack of Hearts - This character had potential but just never quite worked out.
5. Deathcry - As a character, she wasn't that bad but she was such a major part of the overuse of the Kree/Shiar stuff that I just wanted her to go away.
6. Dr. Druid - When Stern first introduced him, he had potential. Unfortunately, Stern left the book (I mean that for more reasons than just Druid) and he fell apart along with everything else.
7. Ares - There are no words.
Isn't it funny that nobody introduced in the 60s or 70s makes anyone's list. I don't think that's just because of our love of nostalgia either. I think it's because fewer characters were introduced, thus causing each one that was introduced to make a difference. From the 80s on, characters were just thrown out us right left. Some stuck. Some didn't. It was much more effective when the characters were carefully placed.
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Post by spiderwasp on Jun 19, 2010 20:01:28 GMT -5
Oops, amending my own post, I now notice that Two Gun Kid was on someone's list and he was from the 70s and Whizzer received a mention though I don't think either of this were ever really considered Avengers and were certainly never a part of an actual line-up.
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 20, 2010 3:25:28 GMT -5
I always love these Top Ten/Countdown/List type threads. But--- in light of how hopelessly diffuse the criteria for being an official "Avenger" has become (Do we consider all Young Avengers, New Avengers, Initiative Avengers, Avengers Forever Future Avengers, Dark Avengers, etc? How about length of membership? Do Reed & Sue qualify?)-- are there perhaps more specific criteria we should adhere to? Just an honest question before I chime in. . . HB Like you said, belly, the Avengers seem on the way of becoming what the X-Men were during the '90's: an enormous organization where very often it was next to impossible to keep track on everybody... . If I may exercise a "right" as the originator of the thread, I would leave things like Avengers Forever and other time-travel/alternate reality situations out, unless they had an actual impact in the Avengers main continuity. For example, Teen Tony was native to a different reality, but then he traveled to Earth 616 with "our" Avengers, stayed there and actively participated in a few adventures with the main roster. In my book, I don't consider people like Two-Gun Kid, the Whizzer, Masque or the Guardians of the Galaxy "true" avengers, they were more like Rick Jones, hangers-on, I think. That's why I left them out of my list but, of course, like you said, it's become kinda hopeless to establish a criteria which would satisfy everyone and it's a legitimate subject of debate... .
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 20, 2010 3:31:08 GMT -5
Huh, how quick was I to foget Ronin/Echo... . If I was writing down my list now I would substitute the Jack of Hearts with her.
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Post by owene on Jun 20, 2010 5:20:20 GMT -5
Isn't it funny that nobody introduced in the 60s or 70s makes anyone's list. I don't think that's just because of our love of nostalgia either. I think it's because fewer characters were introduced, thus causing each one that was introduced to make a difference. From the 80s on, characters were just thrown out us right left. Some stuck. Some didn't. It was much more effective when the characters were carefully placed. Aside from the quality of a lot of the late 60s and 1970s stories having positive associations I think it's largely that the 60s and early 70s characters have largely had a shot at rehabilitation at some point. I wouldn't really say Hercules or the Black knight really did anything special in the 60s but they were a great part of Stern's run. There are quite a few really brief 70s ones as well, Black Widow, Falcon, Hellcat, Moondragon even Ms Marvel but most of them had a second chance to shine or were around for at least one good story. More recent avengers who are associated with one particular writer dont seem to get that opportunity I haven't read a lot of the worst runs so i'm sure i'm missing out some really awful ones but 1 Mr Fantastic, I can kind of see what they wanted to do and I doubt if the writers ever thought 'He'd be a really great avenger' but it still doesn't work. Shows a total lack of understanding from the FF writers and editors as well really. 2. Spider-Man. The same really. Peter Parker wanting to be an avenger but realising it wouldn't work out is fine, been part of the character since day one. Spider-man helping out also works but it does something to the character to have him get the badge and the perks, 3 Crystal. To be honest I'd consider putting quicksilver on here too, just not at all interested in their soap opera but Pietro has more good associations with the book (although he himself was rarely what was good about those issueS) . 4 Moon Knight. His backstory just added a few nice touches to the big Time Travel story but just not a character i've ever had any interest in and that seems to be the sum total of his contribution to the avengers history. 5 Human Torch . Without even getting into the Vision stuff what was the point? 6 Rage not dreadful as such, just seemed to be part of an era when the writers didn't have a clue what to do and had an air of desperation around them 7 Gilgamesh, i'm on a real eternals kick at the moment and maybe i'll see more point to him when i reread those issues but from memory I can't really remember anything about him that they couldn't have done better with Hercules or Thor
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 20, 2010 7:58:35 GMT -5
Owen's observation about older characters benefitting from the rehabilitative efforts of subsequent writers is a really, really good point. Possibly, I think I've held it as an unformulated, unconscious opinion for quite some time (well, if that's possible)-- which would explain why I'm generally harping on having under-realized or even disliked characters brought back onto the team at some point & re-worked. Rage, Jack of Hearts, the Gatherer Swordsman & Magdalene, Sandman, even Triathalon and possibly D-Man. And certainly Lionheart (though not as Captain Britain). For a variety of reasons, I can easily see compelling stories being written around these folks-- they may just need the benefit of a new set of eyes and hands to bring them to life.
Anyhoo-- I surfed around & quickly found Wikipedia's List of Avengers Members-- and that strikes me as maybe a good reference point for this particular list, as it gets us up through the Heroic Age recruits, includes traditional Avengers, WCA, New Avengers & Mighty Avengers, and separates out a pretty long list of associates, honoraries, and what-not.
This is also kinda tricky, 'cause I think there's a difference between "worst" and "superfluous" (or "ineffective" or "too brief to judge". . . ). In my book, wrecking the team kinda trumps generally being of no use whatsoever, so---
1) Dr. Druid- He wrecked the team. Via- of all embarrassing things- his personal mid-life crisis. Got his mind controlled (Nebula, was it?), seized control of the team, and that was it. Each issue was making me cringe, but you know what?-- it's okay, 'cause he wasn't the worst because of fouled up writing, he was the worst because that would seem to have been the intent-- although I seem to recall this story's latter moments got mucked up in a writer shift (Stern to Simonson?)
2) Sentry- But I'm not reeeeeally familiar with him. Didn't pick up ANY of his over-hyped introductory materials, and he wasn't deeply explored in the pages of Mighty. Just the whole ret-con existence of him was beyond a horrible idea. And then he, too, fell apart and was destroyed and what was ever the flippin' point, etc, etc.
3) Reed & Sue (Count as one choice! What a bargain!)- This was just a silly, bad fantasy on the writer's part (Simonson?). I think Sharkar pointed out awhile back that Walt was chompin' to write Reed under whatever circumstances he could get ahold of him, and this is the unfortunate contrivance he concocted. And it, too, fell apart almost upon inception when Walt abruptly left the book.
4) Moondragon- I've never seen anything remotely appealing about her; she is absolutely w/out ethics; she's done extremely harmful things to the team in the past; and she's neither personally likable nor interesting.
5) Gilgamesh- I mean, how comically prophetic that he's officially called "The Forgotten One", huh? I THINK that somehow Marvel & DC got a simultaneous tip about the availability of this monster-fighting figure from ancient myth, and the race was on to secure some sort of copyright precedent. He appears out of NOWHERE in the Avengers at the same time as DC (I think it was DC. . .) releases a miniseries by the same name. Judging from the Marvel version's lack of any depth or back story, and the hilariously ugly costume, my guess is that this was the less legitimate creation. Appalling.
6) Two-Gun Kid- Y'know, in spite of references to the contrary, I don't recall him ever actually being an official, on-the-job member of the team. He fought Kang w/ Clint & Thor back in that initial story in the old west (in which he flat-out panicked), then came back to our time w/ them. . . and went on a long "orientation sabbatical" w/ Hawkeye out in the modern west. . . and then. . . went back to his own time after a few months? Am I about right? I mean, there's ineffective & then there's non-attendant.
7) Tough call for the last slot. . . but I'll go with Jewel mostly because of her unacceptable ret-con status, and because I can't possibly see what she brings to the team beyond being Bendis' pet character. Others that could easily be in this slot: Echo/Ronin, D-Man, Silverclaw & Deathcry--- BUT, I think they all might still have rehab potential (well. . . maybe not Silverclaw).
Okay, there's one of those long posts that I write every so often! Catcha all later-
HB
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Post by bobc on Jun 20, 2010 14:50:30 GMT -5
Come to think of it, The Falcon didn't make much of a splash in the Avengers. I like the character but he didn't seem to really bloom while in the group. The Beast was the exact opposite for me--when he joined I thought it would be a mistake, but now he's one of my favorites. He seems to be viewed by most fans as the one Avenger strongly identified with another group who came to be even more beloved in his stint with the Avengers. Unlike Reed and Sue.
Speaking of X-men in other groups working or not working, was I the only one who thought The Champions was a very weird collection of characters? I remember buying the book, but always thought having Iceman and Angel on the team just never clicked.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 20, 2010 20:24:23 GMT -5
Come to think of it, The Falcon didn't make much of a splash in the Avengers. I like the character but he didn't seem to really bloom while in the group. The Beast was the exact opposite for me--when he joined I thought it would be a mistake, but now he's one of my favorites. He seems to be viewed by most fans as the one Avenger strongly identified with another group who came to be even more beloved in his stint with the Avengers. Unlike Reed and Sue. Speaking of X-men in other groups working or not working, was I the only one who thought The Champions was a very weird collection of characters? I remember buying the book, but always thought having Iceman and Angel on the team just never clicked. I think that Falcon's not-blossoming in the group was sort of the quiet point being made. Remember, he was the "minority member" required during the gov't crackdown (bumping Hawkeye from the roster). But he served bravely and willingly (albeit somewhat resentfully at times), and I do think held up his end of the arrangment. Boy, I thought the Champions were All That when they came out! Except I wasn't in love w/ the George Tuska art. And yeah, Bobby & Warren somehow got joined at hip at that point. Champions folded, and then a few years later they went on to keep the Defenders afloat for quite awhile. And appeared in a Hulk Annual, etc, etc. . . HB
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Post by owene on Jun 21, 2010 2:24:20 GMT -5
Boy, I thought the Champions were All That when they came out! Except I wasn't in love w/ the George Tuska art. And yeah, Bobby & Warren somehow got joined at hip at that point. Champions folded, and then a few years later they went on to keep the Defenders afloat for quite awhile. And appeared in a Hulk Annual, etc, etc. . . HB Never read Champions but I read that Hulk annual recently at it's really good. Superb Byrne art on Angel and his desert base that reminded me a lot of the scenes in the Pheonix saga set there. The issue does kind of give the impression of Warren and Bobby as people with powers who aren't particularly super heroes though. when they are attacked by a sentinel they run away in the direction of Hulkbuster base so that the army or hulk can deal with it. I think there should be room for characters around the MU who tried out super heroing but decided it wasn't really them and just appear every now and again when things intersect with their normal lives. But Marvel kept jamming them together with other characters and teams in the hope one of them worked and i'm not sure any of them (including X-factor) really did.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 21, 2010 14:47:36 GMT -5
Boy, I thought the Champions were All That when they came out! Except I wasn't in love w/ the George Tuska art. And yeah, Bobby & Warren somehow got joined at hip at that point. Champions folded, and then a few years later they went on to keep the Defenders afloat for quite awhile. And appeared in a Hulk Annual, etc, etc. . . HB Never read Champions but I read that Hulk annual recently at it's really good. Superb Byrne art on Angel and his desert base that reminded me a lot of the scenes in the Pheonix saga set there. The issue does kind of give the impression of Warren and Bobby as people with powers who aren't particularly super heroes though. when they are attacked by a sentinel they run away in the direction of Hulkbuster base so that the army or hulk can deal with it. I think there should be room for characters around the MU who tried out super heroing but decided it wasn't really them and just appear every now and again when things intersect with their normal lives. But Marvel kept jamming them together with other characters and teams in the hope one of them worked and i'm not sure any of them (including X-factor) really did. Bobby Drake really was that guy (the reluctant or unmotivated superhero) for a while in the early 80's. Went back to college to study accounting. Even had a miniseries (kinda mediocre) that explored this. I strongly suspect that those times are far, far behind him, as his power levels had boosted massively a couple of times even before I stopped following the X-Books. And didn't he have a fling or something w/ Emma Frost? I must confess that I have no clue to his or Warren's current status. That original iteration of X-Factor was, I thought, so horribly ill-conceived and executed that I can barely acknowledge that it was part of MU continuity. It was just a transparent, naked grab for more of those Mutant Mania X-Book $$$'s. Hated it, hated it, hated it. (Boy, hope I haven't offended any Original X-Factor lovers out there!) HB
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Jun 21, 2010 16:06:44 GMT -5
1. Dr. Druid: I droll, C-List Doctor Strange to me, never enjoyed him and while the storyline of him being all evil and trying to take control of the Avengers was at least an interesting attempt to make him something, it failed. Miserably. And hurt my eyes while reading stories dealing with this guy.
2. Gilgamesh: Forgotton one? Already done.
3. Deathcry: Now that I've read everything from issue #1 to the current stuff, she seemed like a bad X-team idea that showed up in the wrong book. Like, even the locomotive "X" titles didn't want her, so they shuffled her over to the next team they could think of.
4. Moondragon: For many reasons HB posted, this character never seemed to be worthy of Avengers membership or even their time due to the fact she's always HURTING the team or going about things a negative way.
5. Wolverine: Listen, I get the fact he's popular, but he's always been an "X" character. I'm more sympathetic to Spider-Man being an Avenger more than Wolverine.
6. Triatholon: I didn't enjoy this character, just wasn't my cup of tea.
7. Reed & Sue: Here's the interesting part of this pick. With how The Thing was used in the early WCA and now in the NA, I can actually ENJOY the idea of good ol' Ben Grimm on the team. However, Reed and Sue I just couldn't enjoy. Maybe it was because I saw them as a pair and not individuals, but Reed never clicked. In the whole "Marvel Adventures" books they have Sue on that version of Avengers, and she's actually well used.
Now, on the slight "Champions" side-discussion. I've picked up the first TPB of issues #1 - 11 and have #15 and 17 in issue form, I've actually enjoyed the complete wackyness of this team. I even have the Annual from 1998(?) where they team up again with X-Force against Pluto. While this team was wacky and I can see why they didn't have the staying power for a book to go past 100 issues (or maybe even 50), they seemed like a team that could have been really cool to keep around and toy with. The West Coast got no love until the WCA showed up!
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Post by Shiryu on Jun 21, 2010 16:17:31 GMT -5
Hasn't Bobby been revealed to be gay at some relatively recent point? I can't remember if it's him or another founding X-Men, but I have a feeling it's him. Angel keeps switching between his normal look and his Archangel form with metal wings. I glimpsed him in the latest issue of Uncanny X-Men, being in the future with Wolverine and a few others, but the X-books are probably those I know the least about. I only picked one last month because Kurt died. Worst 7 Avengers... unlike most, I find it quite hard to make names. I feel that in most instances it's not so much the character that didn't work, but the writer who didn't have enough time with him before he departed, with the later writer making a mess of things. For example, in Stern's run Dr. Druid wasn't that bad to be honest, it was the next guy who ruined him completely, and Monica Rambeau narrowely escaped the same fate. But anyway, a few easy picks are Echo (she was hardly around at all), Sentry (I know he has his fans but I just can't stand him), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew, she seems a bit useless) and Deathcry (I actually like her name, but that's about it). Then there's Gilgamesh, who had potential having a personality different from both Thor and Hercules, but did hardly anything really, and Human Torch/Hammond, who again was around too briefly. Now it gets hard for spot 7. I tend to ignore Reed & Sue (and I did like the friction between Reed and Cap in those few issues when they were together on the team, it really highlighted the differences between FF and Avengers, in team as well as in scope), Two-Gun Kid, Whizzer, Guardians, Yellowjacket/Rita and the likes... I suppose I'll settle for Mockingbird, all she seems to be is Clint's wife/ex/whatever, but she never shines of her own light, if you see what I mean. Take Clint away and I don't think she is very interesting. So, to recap 1) Echo 2) Sentry 3) Spider-Woman 4) Deathcry 5) Gilgamesh 6) Human Torch I 7) Mockingbird BTW hadn't we discussed this somewhere else before?
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 21, 2010 17:10:55 GMT -5
So, to recap 1) Echo 2) Sentry 3) Spider-Woman 4) Deathcry 5) Gilgamesh 6) Human Torch I 7) Mockingbird BTW hadn't we discussed this somewhere else before? Oh we have, we have (even in my slightly year-plus here), but this strikes me as a perfect comfortable, catch-all thread that's probably always worth revisiting, as it's easy to get newer folks talking, and provides a spot for older vets to air out their views-- and makes them (those vets) more familiar and accessible to said newer folks. (Bong, mightn't that have been part of your diabolical plan when you started this thread? Hmm? Hmm? Oh, you shan't rule the world so easily--!) HB
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Doctor Bong
Young Avenger
Master of belly dancing! (No, really...)
Posts: 73
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Post by Doctor Bong on Jun 22, 2010 0:37:29 GMT -5
So, to recap 1) Echo 2) Sentry 3) Spider-Woman 4) Deathcry 5) Gilgamesh 6) Human Torch I 7) Mockingbird BTW hadn't we discussed this somewhere else before? Oh we have, we have (even in my slightly year-plus here), but this strikes me as a perfect comfortable, catch-all thread that's probably always worth revisiting, as it's easy to get newer folks talking, and provides a spot for older vets to air out their views-- and makes them (those vets) more familiar and accessible to said newer folks. (Bong, mightn't that have been part of your diabolical plan when you started this thread? Hmm? Hmm? Oh, you shan't rule the world so easily--!) HB No doubt we have, but I think what we've discussed more often in the past (back when I was making the polls of avengers to be individually rated, for example), was who are the best seven avengers. Only IMO that question is not as interesting, as we usually end up with a combination of the founders -with Cap instead of the Hulk- (or most of them) and the (other) Big Three: Hawkeye, the Vision and the Scarlet Witch.
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Post by rosecarver on Jun 22, 2010 11:19:00 GMT -5
I agree that many members COULD be better Avenger material, based on how they are handled by the writers. Others like Spidey and Wolverine just don't click as Avengers to me. And some members on other people's lists above I actually like! But that is what makes us all fans...we have our own personal opinions and likes/dislikes! On to my 7 worst Avengers list in no particular order:
1. Sentry. 'Nuff said. 2. Lionheart. Maybe if she had more time as an Avenger, she could have been better. 3. Silverclaw. Potential was there, but didn't just didn't do it for me. 4. D-Man. Even if only honorary or however it was handled...just no. 5. Firebird. I liked a lot of the West Coast stories, but she started to get on my nerves. 6. Hellcat. Just never had an interest in her. 7. Hulk. I've got nothing against him, but even more so than Spidey and Wolverine, he just doesn't belong on any team.
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Jun 22, 2010 13:47:29 GMT -5
You know, it's interesting you picked The Hulk because I thought about it too. Aside from being a founding member of the team, he was gone by Issue #2.
And haven't the Avengers FOUGHT him more than TEAMED with him? While I don't discredit the fact he does have such a focal point, I think other than that bit, there wasn't really anything for him to add than just "being around when the team was made."
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Post by sharkar on Jun 22, 2010 18:17:40 GMT -5
That original iteration of X-Factor was, I thought, so horribly ill-conceived and executed that I can barely acknowledge that it was part of MU continuity. It was just a transparent, naked grab for more of those Mutant Mania X-Book $$$'s. Hated it, hated it, hated it. I didn't mind the first X-Factor team, as it comprised Cyke, Jean, Angel, Beast and Iceman --or, as we Silver Age X-lovers refer to them, the O5. I do think the later incarnation of the team (#71)--while it included three of my all-time favorite characters (Havok, Polaris and Quicksilver)--was kind of lame; I have no use for the likes of Multiple Man, Wolfsbane, and Strong Guy. Some of their "colorful" dialogue was downright painful (yes, even when written by the much-lauded Peter David...JMHO!).
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Post by sharkar on Jun 22, 2010 18:51:15 GMT -5
Bong: thanks for starting this thread (you know I've missed your inimitable polls). An exalt is coming your way! And given that I am unabashed, card-carrying nostalgist, for me the seven worst Avengers are any combination of seven members except for the individuals (in whatever attire) shown below: Okay, okay ;D--I'll play fair and narrow it down. Hmmm, no surprises here... my choices are similar to what others have posted: 1. Silverclaw......can't stand her visuals 2. Hellcat...........never liked her 3. Wolverine......not an Avenger in my eyes 4. Spider-Man....ditto 5. Gilgamesh 6. Deathcry 7. Sentry
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Post by sharkar on Jun 22, 2010 19:24:20 GMT -5
Speaking of X-men in other groups working or not working, was I the only one who thought The Champions was a very weird collection of characters? I remember buying the book, but always thought having Iceman and Angel on the team just never clicked. In Back Issue #19 (and elsewhere), Tony Isabella has recounted what led to his creation of the Champions. To summarize (quoted material is from BI): in 1975 Marvel was expanding, so Isabella (and other writers) were ordered to create some new comics in a hurry. One of his new books had to be a team book. Isabella knew he wanted to use two of his favorite characters, Warren Worthington and Bobby Drake, so he pitched the Champions as a "buddy book...a cross between Route 66 and the Odd Couple" (contrasting rich boy Warren with average Joe Bobby ). Then editorial laid down the law regarding what constituted a good team book: teams had to consist of five members (never mind about the FF , Isabella was told); one member has to be woman; one has to be a "strong guy"; one has to have his own book. So Isabella was forced to bulk up his team with, respectively, the Black Widow (she'd just left the Daredevil comic during Isabella's brief tenure on that book, so he was familiar with her); Hercules; and Ghost Rider. You know, I just became interested in Ghost Rider last summer, largely because of the two Champions trade collections. I then promptly bought, and devoured, all three GR Essential volumes. And speaking of obsessions ;D, a few months ago I became enamored of Wally Wood's THUNDER Agents. Hmmm...Bobby's Champions costume looks an awful lot like Dynamo's, doesn't it??
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Jun 23, 2010 14:48:02 GMT -5
And after all this talk of the Champions, I've ordered the remaining four issues I needed to complete the set this morning, along with Sensational She-Hulk #60. This now completes both the Champions AND my complete series of She-Hulk, Savage to Current.
And.. tangent over.
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Post by freedomfighter on Jun 23, 2010 17:16:50 GMT -5
It's funny how tastes differ. I LOVE Moondragon and Jack of Hearts and Quicksilver and cannot stand the She-Hulk. Hate She Hulk with a passion. I am stunned I left her off my expansive list. Ok since I fudged the rules first time around with my dirty dozen or so worsts, I am going to do a rewrite... 1) Sentry- Remember how Bendis couldn't wait to bring this guy into the fold talking about how awesome he was going to be? Not too many people missing the Sentry these days are they? he totally dropped the ball with this one. 2) Ares- A third rate version of Hercules with virtually nothing of any real value added to the team. A pointless, pointless addition. 3) Echo- Can someone just answer why? It seems like BMB just liked to drop these characters in and then do nothing with them. 4) Deathcry- A concession to X-fans, just more of the X-ripoff style that Harras was doing. I mean the Starjammers, Exodus, logos on their uniforms, I didn't hate Harras, but he was really just doing X-Men in Avengers clothing... 5) She-Hulk- I just don't get why people love this character. It stuns me that they keep trying to give her a title. I've lost count of how many times she's been cancelled. She adds nothing that a more interesting character like say Thundra would bring to the table. 6) Jessica Jones- It's just annoying the way that Bendis has just inserted this character into so many past events. It feels like someone took a magic marker and drew this annoying character into the background of so many events. This is the complete definition of shoehorning somebody in... 7) Rage- Just an awful caricature of a character. I understand there was more to the character than his primary appearance and perhaps Hama was trying to play into that; give Rage this stupid gang member on steroids look only to reveal much more depth in this young, almost Capt. Marvel (DC version) type character, but the character never evolved past his look so he just feels like an angry black guy with an attitude and that's just such a dull dishwater character...
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Jun 24, 2010 13:45:54 GMT -5
Hating She-Hulk with a passion? Man, tastes do differ
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 24, 2010 18:14:23 GMT -5
[]I didn't mind the first X-Factor team, as it comprised Cyke, Jean, Angel, Beast and Iceman --or, as we Silver Age X-lovers refer to them, the O5. I do think the later incarnation of the team (#71)--while it included three of my all-time favorite characters (Havok, Polaris and Quicksilver)--was kind of lame; I have no use for the likes of Multiple Man, Wolfsbane, and Strong Guy. Some of their "colorful" dialogue was downright painful (yes, even when written by the much-lauded Peter David...JMHO!). Ooooooh, it's just that the Death of Jean Grey arc was such a landmark event, and I found it so personally moving-- and then bringing her back to life in such a convoluted and contrived manner was, to me, an absolute negation of the validity of that storyline. And, boy, in retrospect I think it was the first little snowclump to start its way down the mountain in a decades-long snowball-effect of retrocons and revisions of bedrock events. Alicia was really a Skrull for several years?? Norman Osborn wasn't dead after all?? Tony Stark was really evil for years, only he didn't know it?? GWEN STACY HAD TWINS? Sentry was always there, only no one knew? Mockingbird (& Jarvis & a bajillion other people we've even been following forever) have been Skrull imposters for god-knows how long?? Heck, I bet we could make a thread out of 'em. . . ! (I must confess that the X-Men actually set this precedent many years earlier when Prof. X died in the mid-60's--- but it proved to be a previously unknown mutant standing in for him. Good grief. But no one was reading the book then, so I don't think it had widespread coverage. . . ) I also thought the dual-identity mutant heroes/mutant catchers thing was awfully silly, and implausible even by comic book standards. And that initial subplot where Hank got dumber every time he exerted himself should never have gotten out of the editorial sessions. A complete dead-end-- either he dies of brain death. . . or they "fix" him-- there's not a prayer of surprise gonna come of that. Now, I kind of did like the book when it shifted over to becoming Val Cooper's bunch, I must say. It's one of the few times I've liked grouchy ol' Quicksilver, 'cause it explained perfectly what living in a slow-motion world was like for him, and our having that understanding perfectly colored all of his interactions for us. But. . . there were too many X-books, and I was collecting too many titles I wasn't reading, so I did let this one lapse. (Dropped most of the X-titles about the time the "Dark Beast" was introduced). I think I was more satisfied once the "05" returned to the X-Men, more or less. It was a little too much like Reed, Sue, Ben & Johnny forming a new, different group that wasn't the FF. It just wasn't. . . sincere enough for me. HB
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Post by tomspasic on Jun 28, 2010 14:38:12 GMT -5
Wolverine: horribly over-exposed "character", and didn't the Avengers charter used to specify "no killing"? Would not be in any Avengers books except as a prop for sales purposes.
Sentry: mildly amusing out-of-continuity mini-series becomes terrible ret-con, meandering aimlessly for several years.
Ronin/Echo: "My friend created this character nobody cares about, so I'm shoe-horning her into the Avengers". Except people still don't care about her. Dull beyond belief.
Spider-Woman: Another Bendis favourite. Dull character even before Bendis wrote her, as she was also a Claremont favourite.
Jessica "jewel" Jones: Ugh. z-list Spider-woman knock-off and Bendis Mary-Sue ret-con into Everything That Ever Happened.
Luke Cage: I loved the Englehart Cage comics, even loved the Tony Isabella cage comics. Under Bendis, Cage is a blustering, bullying blow-hard whose main super power is hitting people who aren't looking at him.
Spider-Man: Perfectly happy with him as a reserve or guest, but seven years of Bendis' "funny" Spider-man dialogue has me rooting for whoever is currently trying to kill Parker.
Dr. "fantandada miftandada" Strange: I know I'm up to 8 now, but quite aside from being a hopelessly incompetent jack-ass, who has managed to lose his job to "Brudder" Voodoo, Strange was made to talk Bendis' own "magic talk", which was so stupid it made my eyes bleed.
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Post by humanbelly on Jun 28, 2010 15:48:02 GMT -5
Wolverine: horribly over-exposed "character", and didn't the Avengers charter used to specify "no killing"? Would not be in any Avengers books except as a prop for sales purposes. Sentry: mildly amusing out-of-continuity mini-series becomes terrible ret-con, meandering aimlessly for several years. Ronin/Echo: "My friend created this character nobody cares about, so I'm shoe-horning her into the Avengers". Except people still don't care about her. Dull beyond belief. Spider-Woman: Another Bendis favourite. Dull character even before Bendis wrote her, as she was also a Claremont favourite. Jessica "jewel" Jones: Ugh. z-list Spider-woman knock-off and Bendis Mary-Sue ret-con into Everything That Ever Happened. Luke Cage: I loved the Englehart Cage comics, even loved the Tony Isabella cage comics. Under Bendis, Cage is a blustering, bullying blow-hard whose main super power is hitting people who aren't looking at him. Spider-Man: Perfectly happy with him as a reserve or guest, but seven years of Bendis' "funny" Spider-man dialogue has me rooting for whoever is currently trying to kill Parker. Dr. "fantandada miftandada" Strange: I know I'm up to 8 now, but quite aside from being a hopelessly incompetent jack-ass, who has managed to lose his job to "Brudder" Voodoo, Strange was made to talk Bendis' own "magic talk", which was so stupid it made my eyes bleed. Hey! Didja notice the amazingly coincidental fact that your choices for seven worst Avengers co-ordinated precisely with Bendis' New Avengers ros---? Oh. Oh yeahyeahyeahyeah, right--- got it. But okay-- what about your take on the non-NA worst, then, eh? I mean, on a level playing field I still prefer most of the folks on your list to, say, Dr. Druid, Gilgamesh, or even Reed/Sue. Well. . . excepting Sentry & Echo/Ronin, I guess. There are limits. . . Exalt to you for comin' aboard-! HB
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