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Post by scottharris on Feb 1, 2010 18:08:13 GMT -5
The new Avengers title will be written by Bendis with art from John Romita, Jr.  |
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Post by Ignore Me! on Feb 1, 2010 20:20:31 GMT -5
Ugh... I can't stand BENDIS! or JR's art. I repeat.... Ugh.
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Post by woodside on Feb 1, 2010 21:53:40 GMT -5
Romita's art, yay!
Bendis . . . ugh. Dude needs to be finish up. It was a good time, lots of fun, enjoyed it, but let's have someone else have a turn!
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Post by scottharris on Feb 2, 2010 0:54:02 GMT -5
I actually like JR Jr a lot depending on what the kinks look like. If it gets to sketchy, it loses me pretty fast. This picture, though, looks pretty sweet. It's got some classic Kirby/Steranko lineage while still being modern. I like it.
Not crazy about Bendis, needless to say, but I'll still be giving it a try. Who knows, maybe he got the crap out of his system and is ready to write something cool.
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Post by woodside on Feb 2, 2010 9:01:14 GMT -5
Not crazy about Bendis, needless to say, but I'll still be giving it a try. Who knows, maybe he got the crap out of his system and is ready to write something cool. As others have often pointed out, Bendis did say that writing New Avengers was like "taking a dump." Maybe he did get all the crap outta his system.  Regardless, I applaud your willingness to give it try. I have to admit that I'm not completely won over by the Heroic Age Avengers -- as much as I have enjoyed Bendis, I'm ready to have someone else take over. |
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Post by freedomfighter on Feb 2, 2010 10:13:49 GMT -5
Marvel has just opened my budget a bit. Between the new price hike and seeing that Bucky/Cap will still be in the Avengers, I'm done with the title and with no Mighty Avengers I won't feel the need to follow the legacy at all.
I've had several years of Bendis and not one issue has ever risen above "ehhh" for me.
And this may be a bit nitpicky, but why the hell does Bucky carry what looks like a modified German Luger?
It's certainly not the best gun available and given his history fighting the Nazis, he probably wouldn't want to carry their weapon of choice.
Just one of those things that Marvel does that makes no sense to me...
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Feb 2, 2010 13:25:53 GMT -5
I think what I'm interested in as these continue to come out, is that it looks how they'll reveal the lineup. Cap is A, so we've got 7 more letters to go if they reveal each character with a different letter: creating some sort of poster-like reveal. While I might be looking a bit to into it, of course, it's possible of having an eight person line-up?
And I'm not a Bendis fan, the art looks fine enough for me to give it a shot, but here's hoping they do something good.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 2, 2010 14:40:05 GMT -5
Uhm, Romita Jr is definitely not my favorite artist, but it could be worse I suppose. I'm sorry to see that Cap will be Bucky, but I was also expecting it, since Steve apparently will be the head of new Shield and several books have made it clear that he won't be back as Cap just yet. But as long as he is alive and around, it's just a matter of time.
Bendis writing was also - sadly - a given. He seems to be glued to writing Avengers, I can't think of many writers who have been around one book as long as him -_-. To his credit however he has given up using those annoying thought bubbles, and his Loki in Siege was fairly consistent with past speech patterns, so there is a glimmer of hope.
Anyway, wonder who the other Avengers will be. Thor and Iron Man are almost certain, Spider-Man is likely, but then?
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Feb 2, 2010 15:52:56 GMT -5
Actually, it doesn't look like they'll spell out the team, but they've just posted more art here: marvel.com/images/653358./from/content.story.11152Looks like we've got Cap-Bucky and Spider-Woman so far. I agree Iron Man and Thor will probably be on the team, I'd probably bet on Clint as Hawkeye (since we saw that bit of teaser art) |
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 2, 2010 17:22:18 GMT -5
Spider-Woman I could have done without -_-
So
1) Cap
2) Spider Woman
3) Thor?
4) Iron-Man?
5) Spider-Man?
6) Hawkeye?
7) ?
I still strongly believe that Spidey will be there, especially with JR Jr at the art. Thor and Iron-Man are very likely, and Kidcage is probably right about Hawkeye. I assume there will also be at least another woman. Ms Marvel? Jessica Jones?
In a way, it would basically be New Avengers with Thor instead of Cage (yeay), Hawkeye for Ronin (yeay x 2 ^^) and Iron-Man for Wolverine (yeay x 3). Considering that Bucky, Spidey, Clint and Spider-Woman have been team-mates for a while now, it would make sense from a certain point of view. And it would be a rather balanced team, all in all.
But I still hope there will be more of the MA team somewhere else, perhaps with a different name. I was enjoying Scott's work over there.
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kidcage
Reservist Avenger
Posts: 167
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Post by kidcage on Feb 2, 2010 18:55:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm curious to where they're going to put certain members of the MA or Initiative, especially since those have been building nicely (in my opinion) lately. Hank Pym, Tigra, Quicksilver, etc. I think maybe one of the casualties of Siege will be USAgent as with two Cap A's running around and lack of using the character, he could be a welcomed casualty without disturbing too much. Where the rest of the Mighty, Initiative, Young Avengers will come in I haven't a clue, but hopefully not obscurity.
In terms of the team we might see, I can agree with Shiryu with the idea of Bucky/Clint/Spiders being a team for some time that would carry over. I think for a final member we'd be looking at either Ms. Marvel, Mockingbird, or someone from the MA.
I don't know if Cage or Jessica Jones will be on the new team, only because I could see this being an opportunity for Marvel to kick out a new Bendis-written Heroes for Hire style book with Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica, and maybe other street level characters being at the helm (Black Widow? Mockinbird if not in an Avengers book?). Instead of a "street level Avengers" team, it'd be Cage's group.
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 2, 2010 20:23:49 GMT -5
Having just read an early review of Siege #2 on Newsarama, I now strongly suspect (but it's just my feeling, not a spoiler) that it's Ares who will die, killed by the Sentry. It would make sense considering his role in the team was more or less that of Thor when the Thunderer was not around. Talking of Ares, has he been heavily retconned somewhere? in Siege #1 he is strongly against the idea of attacking Asgard, saying he would never make war with the Asgardian gods and a bit later Fandral calls him "Lord Ares". Now in #2 apparently he calls Thor and Balder "brothers". I've also glimpsed somewhere that he has and is trying to raise a foster child, so it all sounds very different from the Ares I used to know.  |
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 3, 2010 8:11:35 GMT -5
My view is that this incarnation of Ares is Bendis' sloppy interpretation. He's sort of making it up as he goes, without knowing the nuance of the the Greek God of War's relationship with, not only the Asgardian Gods, but the Olympians as well. Bendis needs "types" for his writing, and this character is merely his Gladiator's-Russell-Crow, 300's-Gerard-Butler, and Wolverine rolled into one. I've had a quick look around and it seems to be more like a company-wide revamp of the character, starting from some stories in 2006. Here is a summary en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares_(Marvel_Comics) |
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Post by woodside on Feb 3, 2010 8:58:10 GMT -5
I do like Bucky-Cap and Bendis' Spider-Woman, so I'm won over on the cast thus far. I'm just not sure if I want to stick with Avengers. Talking of Ares, has he been heavily retconned somewhere? in Siege #1 he is strongly against the idea of attacking Asgard, saying he would never make war with the Asgardian gods and a bit later Fandral calls him "Lord Ares". Now in #2 apparently he calls Thor and Balder "brothers". I've also glimpsed somewhere that he has and is trying to raise a foster child, so it all sounds very different from the Ares I used to know. Ares was revised in the self-titled mini-series by Michael Avon Omeng. His son is actually Phobos and is in Fury's Secret Warriors. Unless he considers the Asgardians brothers as in "god brothers," it doesn't make a lot of sense to call them that. I'd be glad to see J. Jones and Bendis' version of Luke Cage elsewhere. Same here. Hard to imagine him giving up his mojo and crafting something all that different than what he's done in 5 years with the franchise. I think he'll write unsubtle, "Heroic" dialogue, while continuing to forego continuity and what other creators have built up over the decades. Agreed. New Avengers was at its best when it wasn't being heroic and had the whole "on the run" direction to it. Moving it back into the realm of super-heroes might not be the best decision. And this may be a bit nitpicky, but why the hell does Bucky carry what looks like a modified German Luger? It's certainly not the best gun available and given his history fighting the Nazis, he probably wouldn't want to carry their weapon of choice. Just one of those things that Marvel does that makes no sense to me... Best. Nitpick. Ever. |
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 3, 2010 9:46:11 GMT -5
My view is that this incarnation of Ares is Bendis' sloppy interpretation. He's sort of making it up as he goes, without knowing the nuance of the the Greek God of War's relationship with, not only the Asgardian Gods, but the Olympians as well. Bendis needs "types" for his writing, and this character is merely his Gladiator's-Russell-Crow, 300's-Gerard-Butler, and Wolverine rolled into one. I've had a quick look around and it seems to be more like a company-wide revamp of the character, starting from some stories in 2006. Here is a summary en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares_(Marvel_Comics)I checked out this link, thanks-- and you know, it's not like me to say this, but this really does sound like solidly thought-out growth of character to me (as opposed to just making up convenient characterization on the fly). I've not noticed any particular depth with Bendis' handling of Ares, but his overall recent character arc is extremely compelling. Like, I may go and pick up that mini-series. I must submit that I always felt Ares was really poorly handled in his Avengers appearances over the years. For a God of War, which should supposedly carry a mantle of honor, courage, determination & sacrifice along with it, he rarely failed to turn to bluster, dishonor, treachery, and deceit to achieve his ends. It's tricky, 'cause these "gods" have to be real people as well as the archetypes they represent-- but there's no getting around that they must to some degree embody the traits of what they're the "god" of. I mean, would there be a Poseidon that was afraid of water? An Apollo that had a problem with heights? A Dionysus that was a strict tee-totaler? Really, over the years Ares seemed to be generally written like every other one-dimensional, bitter megalomaniac-- and it was left at that. I do think this is much better. Boy, and my favorite exchange ever: ARES: No one calls me broom-head and lives to speak of it!! HULK: Broom-HEAD!!! HB |
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 3, 2010 13:27:23 GMT -5
It's an interesting matter. Ares' first depiction was actually fairly faithful to the Greek myth, especially to the Iliad, where he is essentially portrayed as a battle-loving fighting machine, somewhat despised by the other gods. It's been many years since I last read the Iliad, but I think there are even one or two instances where he cuts down his own allies whilst fighting.
Having said this, Marvel comics are not a mythology compendium, the prime example being Thor who is hugely different from his mythological counterpart, so I agree with HB that after so many decades where he was portrayed as just another one-dimensional villain, an expansion was probably appropriate. I'm more curious about the sudden respect he seems to have obtained from the Asgardians, but having not read the mini mentioned by W it could be explained there, or a result of those events.
BTW, we have confirmed cast member #3: Iron Man
Hence
1) Cap (Bucky)
2) Spider-Woman
3) Iron-Man
4) ?
5) ?
6) ?
7) ?
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Post by freedomfighter on Feb 3, 2010 22:29:47 GMT -5
I checked out this link, thanks-- and you know, it's not like me to say this, but this really does sound like solidly thought-out growth of character to me (as opposed to just making up convenient characterization on the fly). I've not noticed any particular depth with Bendis' handling of Ares, but his overall recent character arc is extremely compelling. Like, I may go and pick up that mini-series. I must submit that I always felt Ares was really poorly handled in his Avengers appearances over the years. For a God of War, which should supposedly carry a mantle of honor, courage, determination & sacrifice along with it, he rarely failed to turn to bluster, dishonor, treachery, and deceit to achieve his ends. It's tricky, 'cause these "gods" have to be real people as well as the archetypes they represent-- but there's no getting around that they must to some degree embody the traits of what they're the "god" of. I mean, would there be a Poseidon that was afraid of water? An Apollo that had a problem with heights? A Dionysus that was a strict tee-totaler? Really, over the years Ares seemed to be generally written like every other one-dimensional, bitter megalomaniac-- and it was left at that. I do think this is much better. Boy, and my favorite exchange ever: ARES: No one calls me broom-head and lives to speak of it!! HULK: Broom-HEAD!!! HB The inherent problem with a God of War is that he's not a God of warriors, but of the act of war itself. And think about how many wars are actually started over noble motives. Not warriors themselves, who are often noble, but actual wars. Most are fought over land, money and other resources. War is actually due to most base human actions. One can probably bring up allies during WW2 and U.S. during the Revolutionary war, but those were defensive actions. The wars themselves were actually started by megalomaniacs seeking power and money. I think it's perfectly in line for Ares to embody a lot of base human emotions. War is essentially the inability to settle a conflict without violence. |
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Post by woodside on Feb 4, 2010 0:04:31 GMT -5
Very interesting analysis, freedomfighter.
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Post by betaraybill on Feb 4, 2010 0:29:58 GMT -5
Ares was revised in the self-titled mini-series by Michael Avon Omeng. Revised how? To the way Bendis writes him? When you read the series from '06 did you get the sense that, apart from estranging himself from his family (the Olympian gods) Ares developed a reverence for Thor and the Asgardians? I get that MAO wrote a compelling story about Ares that showed him basically giving up in his scheming to take over Olympus. I'm just curious if that story connects the dots between Ares and "BMBAres". |
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Post by woodside on Feb 4, 2010 1:28:09 GMT -5
Ares was revised in the self-titled mini-series by Michael Avon Omeng. Revised how? To the way Bendis writes him? When you read the series from '06 did you get the sense that, apart from estranging himself from his family (the Olympian gods) Ares developed a reverence for Thor and the Asgardians? I get that MAO wrote a compelling story about Ares that showed him basically giving up in his scheming to take over Olympus. I'm just curious if that story connects the dots between Ares and "BMBAres". I don't know, honestly, as I never read the mini and didn't have the slightest interest in Ares before MA. Not that I have a ton of interest, but I also digress . . . Well, not really. Was Ares a memorable bad guy? Did he have a great arc at one point? Did his character have any insight or emotions? Yes? No? Let's say he's been changed. Is that a bad thing? |
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 4, 2010 8:59:49 GMT -5
Having just read Siege #2, the point has become a bit moot ^^''
Anyway there are constant references to Asgardians and Olympians having fought side to side in a recent battle, for example with Zeus having listened to Heimdall's advice. Considering that Asgard hasn't been around for a while and that Zeus has just recently come back to life, I'm not sure where this would fit in continuity, but it's probably the source of this new reciprocal respect between Ares and Asgard.
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Post by woodside on Feb 4, 2010 9:05:43 GMT -5
Having just read Siege #2, the point has become a bit moot ^^'' Anyway there are constant references to Asgardians and Olympians having fought side to side in a recent battle, for example with Zeus having listened to Heimdall's advice. Considering that Asgard hasn't been around for a while and that Zeus has just recently come back to life, I'm not sure where this would fit in continuity, but it's probably the source of this new reciprocal respect between Ares and Asgard. I'm honestly not sure. It could have happened in one of the Thor one-shots or in the Hercules book. |
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Post by betaraybill on Feb 4, 2010 9:47:56 GMT -5
Revised how? To the way Bendis writes him? When you read the series from '06 did you get the sense that, apart from estranging himself from his family (the Olympian gods) Ares developed a reverence for Thor and the Asgardians? I get that MAO wrote a compelling story about Ares that showed him basically giving up in his scheming to take over Olympus. I'm just curious if that story connects the dots between Ares and "BMBAres". I don't know, honestly, as I never read the mini and didn't have the slightest interest in Ares before MA. Not that I have a ton of interest, but I also digress . . . Well, not really. Was Ares a memorable bad guy? Did he have a great arc at one point? Did his character have any insight or emotions? Yes? No? Let's say he's been changed. Is that a bad thing? It's just such a leap. Ares was a villain. I understand that villains can become heroes and heroes can become villains, but I'm having trouble seeing this as it's been presented by Bendis, and that's why I think it's more sloppiness on his part, than Marvel revamping a character. Ares was quite treacherous in his scheming. Having been a Thor fan over the years, I try to imagine Hela having a daughter, becoming an Avenger, and falling over herself to speak respectfully of "Lord Hercules". To pull that off would take one hell of a storyline! Sell me on it. I'll buy whatever a talented writer sends my way. I'm not sold on this incarnation of Ares because point "A" does not meet point "B" on it's way to "C", then "D", then "E". Here's his bibliography: marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:Bibliography-Avengers_2007#AresWas Ares a memorable bad guy? Did he have a great arc at one point? Did his character have any insight or emotions? Yes? No? Depends on who you ask, I suppose. Is Jessica Jones a memorable character? Did she have a great arc at one point? Did her character have any insight or emotions? Check out her bibliography, compare, then drastically change her without doing so skillfully. Would you accept her saying, with all bitterness and sincerity, "Ugh! I hate kids!" without a damned good setup to this new worldview? Change isn't a bad thing. Sloppy or nonsensical continuity is. |
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Post by betaraybill on Feb 4, 2010 9:51:27 GMT -5
Having just read Siege #2, the point has become a bit moot ^^'' Anyway there are constant references to Asgardians and Olympians having fought side to side in a recent battle, for example with Zeus having listened to Heimdall's advice. Considering that Asgard hasn't been around for a while and that Zeus has just recently come back to life, I'm not sure where this would fit in continuity, but it's probably the source of this new reciprocal respect between Ares and Asgard. I'm honestly not sure. It could have happened in one of the Thor one-shots or in the Hercules book. It didn't happen there. I collect both. I'll double check in case I missed it. |
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 4, 2010 11:46:57 GMT -5
[modif.not-- FF's quote is below the post. . . totally bollixed the body orientation!]
This is an excellent, excellent point, FF (which is why I wanted to jump back to it). However, I think it's kind of dependent upon a modern, "civilized" worldview. The context of Ares' deity-hood would be much more in keeping with the Iliad and the even more ancient Greeks that created him in the first place. Wouldn't it? And while warfare, and Ares himself, as Shiryu pointed out, was of course relentless, brutal, and savage, it was also viewed as necessary and honorable and, geeze, clearly glorious. (Mind you, I'm sort of championing a mind-set here that I find completely abhorrent. Please make no mistake about that.) What personal qualities does it take to embody that ideal? Physical strength, a reflexively quick mind, an ability to quickly see cause/effect on both the small and large stage, and a willingness to surrender completely to a canny, coldly-burning rage and to turn off whatever compassion may lay within one's breast. That's what one would expect from a God of War.
Hmm. That doesn't really describe Ares as I saw him portrayed over the years in the Avengers (admittedly, not that often)-- but, boy, it doesn't really describe what he is now, either, does it? It's been pointed out more than once to Marvel's Greek pantheon that they suffer from an astonishing inability to exhibit any deep personal growth. They are perpetually making the same, arrogant blunders and atrocities in the mortal world. . . seem to achieve a new level of self-awareness in their regret (usually on Zeus' part). . . and then a couple of years later, just commit the same thoughtless offenses all over again. I think what I LIKE here (whether it's intentional or not) is that Ares- generally portrayed as one of the worst of them- has become a better "person" than the bunch simply by way of deciding. . . to. . . change. And (more or less) sticking to his decision.
Okay, I've gone 'waaaay off-- and I may be projecting more onto the character than is remotely there-- and I of course don't have all the facts at hand-- but I've been enjoying this discussion, so hopefully that mitigates the running on a bit--!
HB
[FreedomFighter's fine quote]
The inherent problem with a God of War is that he's not a God of warriors, but of the act of war itself.
And think about how many wars are actually started over noble motives.
Not warriors themselves, who are often noble, but actual wars. Most are fought over land, money and other resources.
War is actually due to most base human actions. One can probably bring up allies during WW2 and U.S. during the Revolutionary war, but those were defensive actions. The wars themselves were actually started by megalomaniacs seeking power and money.
I think it's perfectly in line for Ares to embody a lot of base human emotions. War is essentially the inability to settle a conflict without violence.[/quote]
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 4, 2010 12:33:40 GMT -5
We have Avenger #4  1) Bucky Cap 2) Spider-Woman 3) Iron-Man 4) Hawkeye 5) ? 6) ? 7) ? So far I like 3 out of 4, not too bad as far as I'm concerned. This is very true, it does all seem a bit too sudden to be realistic. However, both Asgardians and Olympians have often been depicted as... volatile, shall we say, over the years. I remember a Thor issue from not too long ago (early V2 I think) where Thor goes to Olympus and finds it in rubbles. Hercules sees him and attacks him thinking he has had a part of it, or something like that. The two of them have been like brothers, fighting side to side dozens of times against all sorts of enemies and then that's all it takes for Herc to attack Thor? The way I see it - provided that there is some sort of story explaining or at least hinting at it - everyone respecting Ares is a bit like when Loki does something good, or apparently good, and suddenly everyone forgets all his past crimes. Odin, Balder, and even Thor have done it several times over the years, the last of which in last month's Thor title. It appears that they establish most of their bonds by fighting shoulder to shoulder with someone, so, if it has happened with Ares, it could potentially make some sense. |
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Post by goldenfist on Feb 5, 2010 12:52:11 GMT -5
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Post by Shiryu on Feb 5, 2010 13:29:47 GMT -5
1) Cap Bucky 2) Spider-Woman 3) Iron-Man 4) Hawkeye 5) Thor 6) ? 7) ? Two places to go... and the bets are on! For the first ufficial AA forum no-prize, who will be the last 2 members? 2 names only |
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Post by goldenfist on Feb 5, 2010 13:42:11 GMT -5
Spider-Man and Quicksilver
I just have this feeling that Benids might put Spider-Man on the
team but then again who knows who will get the last two spots.
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Post by humanbelly on Feb 5, 2010 14:26:26 GMT -5
1) Cap Bucky 2) Spider-Woman 3) Iron-Man 4) Hawkeye 5) Thor 6) ? 7) ? Two places to go... and the bets are on! For the first ufficial AA forum no-prize, who will be the last 2 members? 2 names only As is often the case, the team is seriously hurting for female members. I would hope that at least one of the two would be a woman. I'm not on top of what their current statuses are (dead, insane, inactive, or just fine), but given the heavy leaning towards established members, I'd say the candidates for #6 would be (in order of liklihood): Warbird, Scarlet Witch, She-Hulk. And #7-- you know what? I bet it's going to be some out-of-the-blue, long-forgotten or never-heard-of "pet" character that BMB will want to build up into the next new big thing. Man, every writer does that on this book! They're all like Lot's wife: they KNOW they shouldn't do something, and yet they're hopelessly compelled to do it anyhow! HB |
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