|
Post by spiderwasp on Dec 17, 2009 22:10:58 GMT -5
I have a confession to make, to all of you who've gotten to know me alittle this past years... my fellow Avengers fans, many of whom I suffer with under the current Brian Michael Bendis regime... ...I bought New Avengers Annual 3. I'm sorry, it was an impulse. We'll forgive you this time Bill. Just don't let it happen again. We all have our moments of weakness but if you start to reach for the Bendis in the future - remember we're here for you. We can talk you through it.
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Dec 18, 2009 17:12:41 GMT -5
This is kind of a neat poser you've posed here, Bill. Geeze, if the flippin' book wasn't $5, I'd go pick it up just so's I could see those references.
That type of "mental torment" as a convention strikes me as silly, shallow, cliche', and poorly thought out (big surprise). What human being doesn't have scores of moments like that? Good grief, how mundane. It makes no sense at all, particularly for extraordinarily determined folks like Clint, who tend to compensate by taking complete ownership of their mistakes and failings (sooner or later), set their jaw, and tromp back out there to do better next time. But EVERYONE lives with that kind of burden every day, for pete's sake. It's just part of being a living, social creature. Oy.
But hey, what would I put on that list (pulling only from the pool of what I remember, offhand, about Hawk's history)?
1) The TOTAL contempt & disrespect he showed for Cap shortly after he joined the team.
2) There was a point with Natasha where his temper caused him to erupt into an argument w/ her right when he needed to be offering a tender side--- and I think it was pretty much at the terminal point of their relationship. Circa issue #45-ish, maybe?
3) Holding on to the hurt from his feelings of betrayal by his brother Barney until it was juuuuust too late. (#64)
4) Oh, criminy-- the way he threw himself at Wanda just as she was admitting her feelings for the Vision to herself. Omigod-- the humiliation & the embarrassment!
5) His unbelievable (and I maintain, uncharacteristic) dismissal of his own wife after the awful incident w/ Night Rider. That's really the worst, I think.
6) Sleeping w/ Jan. Good god.
7) I would say, being completely taken in by that Champion guy--- except he saved all of California w/ (another) unbelievable bow shot---- so it's probably mitigated a bit.
8) Well-- there's gotta be something w/ the WCA--- but it's been YEARS since I've read through them. Anyone?
9) Actually-- same w/ the Thunderbolts. Did he end up sleeping w/ Karla? Anyone, again?
10) ------ agh--- gotta go, blizzard looming in the DC metro area. Need to bring some more wood in. Plus son has a basketball game (pep band). And a party after.
This is no way to live.
HB
|
|
|
Post by starfoxxx on Dec 18, 2009 18:47:06 GMT -5
I have a confession to make, to all of you who've gotten to know me alittle this past years... my fellow Avengers fans, many of whom I suffer with under the current Brian Michael Bendis regime... ...I bought New Avengers Annual 3. I'm sorry, it was an impulse. We'll forgive you this time Bill. Just don't let it happen again. We all have our moments of weakness but if you start to reach for the Bendis in the future - remember we're here for you. We can talk you through it. I'm with spiderwasp. hey, it took me 50 issues of New Avengers before I could take NO MORE! BTW, anyone interested in buying New Avengers #1-50? 50 bucks and they're all yours. ;D
|
|
|
Post by betaraybill on Dec 18, 2009 23:16:46 GMT -5
This is kind of a neat poser you've posed here, Bill. Geeze, if the flippin' book wasn't $5, I'd go pick it up just so's I could see those references. That type of "mental torment" as a convention strikes me as silly, shallow, cliche', and poorly thought out (big surprise). What human being doesn't have scores of moments like that? Good grief, how mundane. It makes no sense at all, particularly for extraordinarily determined folks like Clint, who tend to compensate by taking complete ownership of their mistakes and failings (sooner or later), set their jaw, and tromp back out there to do better next time. But EVERYONE lives with that kind of burden every day, for pete's sake. It's just part of being a living, social creature. Oy. But hey, what would I put on that list (pulling only from the pool of what I remember, offhand, about Hawk's history)? 1) The TOTAL contempt & disrespect he showed for Cap shortly after he joined the team. 2) There was a point with Natasha where his temper caused him to erupt into an argument w/ her right when he needed to be offering a tender side--- and I think it was pretty much at the terminal point of their relationship. Circa issue #45-ish, maybe? 3) Holding on to the hurt from his feelings of betrayal by his brother Barney until it was juuuuust too late. (#64) 4) Oh, criminy-- the way he threw himself at Wanda just as she was admitting her feelings for the Vision to herself. Omigod-- the humiliation & the embarrassment! 5) His unbelievable (and I maintain, uncharacteristic) dismissal of his own wife after the awful incident w/ Night Rider. That's really the worst, I think. 6) Sleeping w/ Jan. Good god. 7) I would say, being completely taken in by that Champion guy--- except he saved all of California w/ (another) unbelievable bow shot---- so it's probably mitigated a bit. 8) Well-- there's gotta be something w/ the WCA--- but it's been YEARS since I've read through them. Anyone? 9) Actually-- same w/ the Thunderbolts. Did he end up sleeping w/ Karla? Anyone, again? 10) ------ agh--- gotta go, blizzard looming in the DC metro area. Need to bring some more wood in. Plus son has a basketball game (pep band). And a party after. This is no way to live. HB That's good rundown. 2, 3, 4, and 9 are in the collage (well, close enough to the timeframe to give BMB credit for including it). I would put his accidental killing of Egghead in there. He was shaken up by it and since it happened in the pages of the Avengers it would've fit better than others that were included. #1, disrespecting Cap, is something I would've expected to see in the collage. #5, his reaction to Bobbi after the Night Rider incident is a biggie. In fact, it's one of Clint Barton's biggest mistakes ever. #6, sleeping with Jan is another! #8, a West Coast Avengers incident, could've been the time he reacted adversely to Rhodes revealing himself as Iron Man in the Limited Series. #10, fireplace wood & basketball party preparation, is a bit of a stretch. I might've gone with "Rushing to the grocery store for bread and milk", myself if confronted by impending snow.
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 22, 2009 15:13:35 GMT -5
I'm a sucker for montages so I just ran out to get a look at this issue (I'm at my job). I'm back at work now (yes, working hard as you tell! ) and my impression is there's a nice selection of images, including the last panel from Avengers #93 (by Adams), some early Heck stuff from Hawkeye's Tales of Suspense appearances (with a seductive shot of Natasha), the wedding scene from Giant-Size Avengers #4 (Wanda-Vizh-Swordy-Mantis), Swordsman teaching Hawkeye (Avengers #19, Heck again), the cover to Daredevil #99, Clint and Bobbi taking a bubble bath in that heart-shaped tub, etc. I loved the trip down memory lane! (And as for the present, I've got to say Mike Mayhew draws a very attractive Clint- -I was almost tempted to buy this comic instead of merely thumbing through it! But ultimately I resisted that unholy impulse...) I was surprised, however, that the catalogue of Clint's "every embarrassment" failed to include this: 2) There was a point with Natasha where his temper caused him to erupt into an argument w/ her right when he needed to be offering a tender side--- and I think it was pretty much at the terminal point of their relationship. Circa issue #45-ish, maybe? Just curious, HB, are you referring to Avengers #47 (in which Hawkeye is short with Natasha, though it's understandable because Cap has just shocked the Avengers by announcing his sudden resignation from the team)...or #57, when Natasha decides to resume her costumed BW identity but Hawkeye has to rush off to answer Hank's page?
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Dec 22, 2009 19:40:13 GMT -5
2) There was a point with Natasha where his temper caused him to erupt into an argument w/ her right when he needed to be offering a tender side--- and I think it was pretty much at the terminal point of their relationship. Circa issue #45-ish, maybe? Just curious, HB, are you referring to Avengers #47 (in which Hawkeye is short with Natasha, though it's understandable because Cap has just shocked the Avengers by announcing his sudden resignation from the team)...or #57, when Natasha decides to resume her costumed BW identity but Hawkeye has to rush off to answer Hank's page? Ohmanohmanohmanohman, Shar-- you're really gonna pin me down like that? Um, um--- maybe I'm remembering the spirit of both, maybe? The images in my head are of Hawkeye coming to see Natasha (at her place, I believe) intending to propose, and somehow it all going south, and him stalking off in a huff, and either he or she having immediate regrets. Boy, sometimes my memory is solid, right down to panel details & placement, and other times I seem to recall subtext more than actual, pictured event. Do my memories pair up w/ either of those issues? Both? And wow, that circa issue #99 costume of Hawkeye's--- oy, I believe we've discussed it even in my short time here! This is one of the more overtly masculine, testosterone-driven characters in the Marvel Universe--- and he shows up out of the blue dressed like a giggling, wood-nymph tart! My pal Bryan and I were beyond being able to adequately articulate our horror at this development! I mean-- lord help us if he was wearing that kilt thingy in full Scotts fashion. . . (I mean, the guy swings OVERHEAD on ROPES all the time!!!). HB
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 23, 2009 20:40:27 GMT -5
Ohmanohmanohmanohman, Shar-- you're really gonna pin me down like that? Um, um--- maybe I'm remembering the spirit of both, maybe? The images in my head are of Hawkeye coming to see Natasha (at her place, I believe) intending to propose, and somehow it all going south, and him stalking off in a huff, and either he or she having immediate regrets. Boy, sometimes my memory is solid, right down to panel details & placement, and other times I seem to recall subtext more than actual, pictured event. Do my memories pair up w/ either of those issues? Both? Sorry, HB , I didn't mean to put you on the spot. It was just that you sounded relatively sure about the timeframe since you mentioned "circa" issue #45 (so, Silver Age Avengers). I was genuinely wondering what scene you were referring to. But no, the scene you've described is not in #47 or #57 (the two Avengers issues I brought up as possibilities)...and I can tell you with certainty what you've described is not in any Silver Age Avengers comic. So, it could possibly be a figment of your own "subtext" (as you said), but more likely it's a scene (or scenes) from any one of the thousands of other Marvels (could be a Daredevil issue, or any one of Hawkeye or BW solo series, or post-Silver Age Avengers) that have been published! Actually, what you described was a bit similar to some scenes in Earth's Mightiest Heroes Volume 2, which features Hawkeye and Natasha's problems in maintaining their relationship (only there's no hint of a proposal in EMH2, and Hawk and 'Tash are pretty civil to one another here for the most part). Anyway, if you do recall where you've seen that scene, please let me know because I'd love to read it--I like anything to do with Natasha and Hawkeye's history!
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Dec 24, 2009 14:29:12 GMT -5
But no, the scene you've described is not in #47 or #57 (the two Avengers issues I brought up as possibilities)...and I can tell you with certainty what you've described is not in any Silver Age Avengers comic. So, it could possibly be a figment of your own "subtext" (as you said), but more likely it's a scene (or scenes) from any one of the thousands of other Marvels (could be a Daredevil issue, or any one of Hawkeye or BW solo series, or post-Silver Age Avengers) that have been published! Heh- no, as I reflect on it more deeply, I'm convinced this is a case of me "remembering" a scene as my mind wanted it to play, and not as it was truly represented. Possibly as a short-hand account of the nature of Hawkeye & Natasha's relationship during that whole Silver Age period? Oh, it's all psychological, is what it is. . . Thanks for clearing my head, though! HB
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 29, 2009 11:01:12 GMT -5
HB, your backstory shows you have more perception about these characters than some comic book writers I could name! ;D Come to think of it what you described is not so unlike as what occurred in DD #99/Avengers #110-111, when Clint goes to Natasha's house (as you mentioned) and battles DD for her fair hand. There's no proposal, but 'Tasha does express regrets (as you also mentioned). From Avengers #111--Steve Englehart at his soapiest!
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Dec 29, 2009 20:56:40 GMT -5
HB, your backstory shows you have more perception about these characters than some comic book writers I could name! ;D Come to think of it what you described is not so unlike as what occurred in DD #99/Avengers #110-111, when Clint goes to Natasha's house (as you mentioned) and battles DD for her fair hand. There's no proposal, but 'Tasha does express regrets (as you also mentioned). From Avengers #111--Steve Englehart at his soapiest! OMG, Shar, that is, like, the funniest single panel ever, on a number of levels (sort of like Michidiers' posting of that talking/floating head cover)! 1) The panel is just RIPPED from almost any page of a "True Heartbreak of Our Love"-type comic. The fact that it's taking itself seriously is almost heartbreakingly hilarious--- except it's rude to laugh at other folks' mistaken self-perceptions. 2) The pose: Agonizing over a studio photo of the beloved? I think even then this was a jaw-dropping cliche' 3) If Natasha's with DD, why does she still have Hawkeye's picture hangin' around? Does she figure that, being blind, he'll never see it?? 4) Does ANYONE picture Hawkeye as the type of guy that would have photo-portrait made of himself? Seriously? 5) Monologue: Uh--- who are "they"? The ones what warned Natasha that Hawk was a child? All of her close circle of girlfriends? The KGB? Ivan? SHIELD? Pietro & Wanda? (Now, that maybe I could see. 6) Monologue again: Natasha's uttering a string of lovelorn cliche's. . . but they don't actually make proper sense. Especially in the second balloon. The first half of the sentence doesn't match the second half of the sentence. Kinda poignant that her syntax is failing her right alongside her multiple roles as a woman. 7) Even after all this heartbreak, he's still "Hawkeye" and not "Clint". The idea of having such an intense, protracted, agonizing romance with someone, and yet not being actually on a first-name basis with them has tickled me forever. Heck, I'm sure I've mentioned it here, at some point. Yep, Emotional Maturity 101 doesn't seem to even be offered as an elective in the superhero realm. Ah well. Oh, this is great stuff. It's brightened me up considerably after a tough day. And YES, I'm sure this somewhat later plot thread is what was lodged in my head-- at least partially. This panel was part of what was coming to my mind's eye. Ha-- Shar, you always manage to goad me into rambling on forever about this kind of minutiae. You are tricky, yes indeed! HB
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Dec 30, 2009 13:12:26 GMT -5
Glad you got a kick out of it, HB. 4) Does ANYONE picture Hawkeye as the type of guy that would have photo-portrait made of himself? Seriously? Yep, my thoughts exactly as to why that panel is so inane. You see, she's in CLINT'S ROOM at Avengers mansion...what on earth is such a portrait doing in his room??? You may have already looked at #111, but let me set the stage for this ludicrousness: Hawkeye battled DD in DD #99 and at the end of that issue, the Avengers show up to ask for help from Hawkeye, DD, and Natasha (Magneto has captured Wanda and the X-Men). Hawkeye refuses, but DD and Natasha accept and fly back to NY with the Avengers. The story continues in Avengers #111. En route to NY, Natasha says she "can't believe" Hawkeye didn't join them. The Vision says he can believe it, and offers his helpful assessment of the situation by referring to Clint (Vizh's erstwhile rival for Wanda) as a "child": And even though the Avengers are preparing to square off against the mighty Magneto, no one seems to mind when Natasha decides to blow off their strategy session: She makes a beeline for Clint's room: 7) Even after all this heartbreak, he's still "Hawkeye" and not "Clint". The idea of having such an intense, protracted, agonizing romance with someone, and yet not being actually on a first-name basis with them has tickled me forever. Heck, I'm sure I've mentioned it here, at some point. Yep, Emotional Maturity 101 doesn't seem to even be offered as an elective in the superhero realm. Ah well. Yes. Especially disappointing is the notion that this was published in 1973--several years after Marvel had incorporated the frequent/realistic use of civilian names into their superhero comics (with exceptions; Hawkeye, for example, wasn't given a civilian name until 5 years after his debut!)--so one would expect better from Marvel at this stage. Yet Englehart's broad strokes dialogue here reads more like what you'd find in a mid-1960s DC comic. EDIT: fixed a picture link
|
|
|
Post by humanbelly on Dec 31, 2009 7:22:37 GMT -5
Wow, glad you got me all contextually put back together, Shar-! I had no recollection at all that this was taking place at Avengers Mansion. *sigh*-- the brain cells just fade with time. Okay, but I DO now remember wondering why in the world Clint would keep a framed picture of himself in his own room, yes. Granted, he may be a bit vain & cultivates a noteworthy ego-- but Pepe le Pew he ain't--! (heh) I wonder if Steve E's 1966-esque tone was influenced by Don Heck's art style-- which may have also been unfortunately evocative of that earlier period? HB
|
|
|
Post by tschamp on Dec 31, 2009 21:31:40 GMT -5
I liked it. I personally felt it was the stronger of the two annuals that Bendis did compare to the Dark Avengers.
|
|
|
Post by sharkar on Jan 4, 2010 18:17:39 GMT -5
I wonder if Steve E's 1966-esque tone was influenced by Don Heck's art style-- which may have also been unfortunately evocative of that earlier period? Yep, once again you have read my mind, HB ;D...the panel in question is vintage Heck (experienced romance comic book artist that he was). This sort of panel wouldn't have been out of place in a '60s Iron Man story--Pepper mooning over a photo of Tony Stark. (Note: I am a Heck fan, but I do think at this stage Heck's pencils weren't as complete and tight as in the past, so there's too much Esposito here--and I never thought they were a good match.) And while SE naturally had to tailor his words to complement the art provided- -and and even though SE was still new to the Avengers (he'd started with #105)- -I think he could have steered the panel by a more judicious use of dialogue. (I mean, did Heck in anyway indicate this was Hawkeye's room? Naw, that was Englehart's contribution! ) And from what I've seen of SE's work during that time, SE's "relationship" dialogue (as here, or with Vizh-Wanda, Mantis-Swordy) tended toward the sappy regardless of artist (Tuska, Brown and others).
|
|