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Post by bobc on Nov 6, 2009 14:05:46 GMT -5
Hey guys--and this is a thread for us old-timers--
Which Avenger, over the years, gets the Most Improved Player award?
I pick the Wasp, hands down. I recently purchased The Essential Ant Man edition, and I swear to God the Wasp gets kidnapped virtually every issue. I am not exaggerating. Just off the top of my head, in that volume and the first Essential Avengers volume, the Wasp was captured by The Human Top, Masters of Evil, Porcupine, Enchantress, Madame Macabre, Count Nefaria, Attuma, my GOD the list goes on and on. She was even bested by a fly swatter made of webbing, a spray can of DDT, a sparrow, and even lost a fight to a bumble bee. It got so bad that in one issue, Jan is actually captured off-screen (can't recall who got her that time--there were so many times I get confused) and they don't even bother showing how.
So basically, the Wasp was a complete liability for the first few years of her tenure at Marvel.
John Byrne, of course, ramped up Jan's powers considerably in Marvel Team-Up in the 80's, and in that same decade she came into her own as a leader and a fighter in the Avengers. But in those first few years, she was basically just kidnap bait.
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Post by medinnus on Nov 6, 2009 16:42:27 GMT -5
Wasp would be my pick as well, for all the aforementioned reasons.
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Post by starfoxxx on Nov 6, 2009 17:17:49 GMT -5
She-Hulk , IMO, really blossomed as an Avenger, and brought her personality to the FF as well.
To a lesser degree, Tigra as well (for her West Coast tenure, where she was very underused).
Also, Captain Marvel II, although she was never a favorite for me. (kind of boring......IMO)
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Post by medinnus on Nov 6, 2009 17:23:03 GMT -5
Also, Captain Marvel II, although she was never a favorite for me. (kind of boring......IMO) Captain Monica never really did much for me; she was clearly Stern's favorite, but I keep re-reading those issues and can't for the life of me see where she had grown into something that was suited for leading the Avengers. She was powerful, yes, and not a bad character; I mean, I didn't dislike her (until her recent handling, which IMO altered the character beyond recognition), but Avengers Leadership material? She was neither inspiring, strategically, nor tactically brilliant. Its like BENDIS pushing his pet Jessica Jones; it comes off as -at best - artificial, and at worst, like bad fanfic. |
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 6, 2009 17:52:11 GMT -5
Hey guys--and this is a thread for us old-timers-- Which Avenger, over the years, gets the Most Improved Player award? I pick the Wasp, hands down. I recently purchased The Essential Ant Man edition, and I swear to God the Wasp gets kidnapped virtually every issue. I am not exaggerating. Just off the top of my head, in that volume and the first Essential Avengers volume, the Wasp was captured by The Human Top, Masters of Evil, Porcupine, Enchantress, Madame Macabre, Count Nefaria, Attuma, my GOD the list goes on and on. She was even bested by a fly swatter made of webbing, a spray can of DDT, a sparrow, and even lost a fight to a bumble bee. It got so bad that in one issue, Jan is actually captured off-screen (can't recall who got her that time--there were so many times I get confused) and they don't even bother showing how. So basically, the Wasp was a complete liability for the first few years of her tenure at Marvel. John Byrne, of course, ramped up Jan's powers considerably in Marvel Team-Up in the 80's, and in that same decade she came into her own as a leader and a fighter in the Avengers. But in those first few years, she was basically just kidnap bait. Hey! Hey! There he is! Bobc! Bobc-- go over to the "Horrible Drawing of Cap" thread-- a couple of us were looking for your professional insight. (As an incentive, it will TOTALLY give you an opportunity to go off on today's lackadaisical, mercenary, slacker group of young artists. You can hardly EVER pass that up! Don't fail us, brother. . . ) Hang on, Comaboy. I'm sure he'll be around shortly. . . HB |
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 7, 2009 11:42:52 GMT -5
It's probably kind of important to define what the Most Improved equation encompasses. Attitude? Power levels? Indispensability? A combination of the three? It's almost a given that it would have to be an individual Avenger who was an extremely questionable teammate when they first started, one way or another.
But, okay, I do yield that Jan is unquestionably the winner here. I think Hawkeye may be a fairly close second, though, given his entire history. The only other one I can think of who made the jump from villain/liability to dependable mainstay is probably Simon Williams. Most everyone else, I think, was pretty much solid from their introduction (and didn't need much improving), or started weak and didn't hang around long enough to improve (Swordsman I, Silverclaw, Gilgamesh, etc, etc). One very late member that was ripe for growth & improvement was Jack of Hearts-- but alas it looks like we'll never know.
As far as Cap Marvel Monica goes--- geeze, I always liked her! I didn't appreciate how she was summarily dispatched by. . . Walt Simonson, was it?. . . but it was unbelievably refreshing to have such a competent, centered, focused, capable heroine in the group (who didn't seem to carry any requisite sexpot baggage, I might add). And, if anything, her extensive law-enforcement background (Coast Guard, wasn't it?), made her a particularly qualified team-leader. It's kind of easy to forget that she wasn't just "some young woman" who gained these powers, but someone who was already trained to think clearly in emergency situations.
She should certainly be on the list simply because she went from rookie to dependable heavy-hitter in such a short span of time.
My goodness, it's getting on to lunchtime. . .
The Belly calls. . . (I wonder if I can sneak some more Halloween candy. . . )
HB
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Post by bobc on Nov 7, 2009 17:38:37 GMT -5
Hey HB! Where is the Cap thread?
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Post by Ignore Me! on Nov 8, 2009 4:17:13 GMT -5
One very late member that was ripe for growth & improvement was Jack of Hearts-- but alas it looks like we'll never know. HB Not that I really read comics anymore, but if I'm not mistaken someone posted a page from Hercules taking a trip through Hades I think. He came upon a gambling casino where the dead were trying to win back their lives. I'm pretty sure Jack won the slots and excitedly screamed he was next to leave. Not sure if was part of some plan or just a joke, but I keep expecting Jack to pop up again. |
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 8, 2009 6:41:19 GMT -5
One very late member that was ripe for growth & improvement was Jack of Hearts-- but alas it looks like we'll never know. HB Not that I really read comics anymore, but if I'm not mistaken someone posted a page from Hercules taking a trip through Hades I think. He came upon a gambling casino where the dead were trying to win back their lives. I'm pretty sure Jack won the slots and excitedly screamed he was next to leave. Not sure if was part of some plan or just a joke, but I keep expecting Jack to pop up again. One has to wonder why in the world Jack's soul/spirit/essence would be consigned to Hades, of all places-?? The Olympians' particular version of Hell? I mean, Jack was a grouch & all-- but come on. . . And did Jack strike us as someone whose religion of choice was the ancient Greek pantheon? Wouldn't that be kind of a requisite for entering into their realm of afterlife? I mean, I know we're talking bizarre fantastical elements, here-- but I had a very wise scenic design teacher once point out that even the most outlandishly unrealistic concepts have to be logically correct and consistent--- or they're just undisciplined nonsense. Given all that, though--- I'd sure like to see Jack given another chance. His situation was unbelievably dire, and therefore quite dramatically interesting. HB |
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Post by bobc on Nov 9, 2009 9:23:58 GMT -5
I love what Bendis has done with Spiderwoman.
I just said that to be annoying. Did it work?
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comaboy
Great Lakes Avenger
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Post by comaboy on Nov 9, 2009 9:42:28 GMT -5
Hang on, Comaboy. I'm sure he'll be around shortly. . . HB We shall see.  |
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Post by sharkar on Nov 9, 2009 19:31:00 GMT -5
So basically, the Wasp was a complete liability for the first few years of her tenure at Marvel. Sure. But let's face it--she didn't have the physical strength of, say, Hank, or DC's Ray Palmer...much less their intellects (and she shouldn't)--so she was an easy target. IMO her later, amped-up version (both in powers and personality) always felt forced. (I feel the same way about Sue--she became oh-so-wise and a spokesperson of sorts for the FF). Now, I fully understand why this is done--new generations of talent, new generations of audiences and all that (the damsel-in-distress is a stereotype best left in the past); but the "ideal" Jan in my mind will always be the charming, extroverted, somewhat flighty Wasp as she appeared back in the late 1960s. A matter of perspective, I suppose. Anyway, I did like how the other members reacted when she first said she wanted to be the leader (they were surprised); and I liked how Hercules questioned her every decision; and it was hilarious when lovestruck Dane kept bolstering her ego--I cracked up every time he said things like "Don't give up, Jan--we need you as leader!" or "You're doing a great job, Jan!" ;D . |
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Post by sharkar on Nov 9, 2009 20:04:09 GMT -5
Okay, now for my pick for "Most Improved Avenger:" Pietro. Sure, we were always told he was arrogant (when he first joined the Avengers); but apart from some spats with Hawkeye (and occasionally with Cap) we didn't really see that side of him too much. And when Hank, Jan, Natasha and Hercules became regulars in the Avengers book, Pietro (and Wanda) faded into the background. Well, at least Quickie showed some spirit and ferocity when he left the Avengers (#49)! But even when he returned in #75, he was still fairly one-dimensional...until the Wanda-Vision hook-up (which obviously benefited those two characters, too, in terms of growth and exposure). This is when the Quicksilver character started to become interesting, IMO. His nasty side really came to the forefront.
Then Pietro's marriage to Crystal connected him to the Inhumans and opened up lots of possibilities (for both of these previously-bland characters).
And the icing on the cake: the connection to Magneto. With all this emotional baggage, no wonder Pietro's been good...and bad (sure, Maximus usually has a hand in this but I wouldn't discount Pietro's innate irascibility)...and good again...and so on; I find it perfectly in character.
Pietro's intelligence and sense of superiority--as well as his vulnerability (I felt so bad for him in Av. volume 3 when he remarked on his failure as a husband and father)--make this guy a fascinating character. Granted, the bulk of Pietro's growth over the years has taken place in books other than the Avengers (X-Factor, his own limited series, etc.); and he's not an A-Lister in most peoples' eyes; but it's a real treat for me to see him, flaws and all, back with the team in the pages of the Mighty Avengers.
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 10, 2009 13:05:02 GMT -5
Okay, now for my pick for "Most Improved Avenger:" Pietro. Sure, we were always told he was arrogant (when he first joined the Avengers); but apart from some spats with Hawkeye (and occasionally with Cap) we didn't really see that side of him too much. And when Hank, Jan, Natasha and Hercules became regulars in the Avengers book, Pietro (and Wanda) faded into the background. Well, at least Quickie showed some spirit and ferocity when he left the Avengers (#49)! But even when he returned in #75, he was still fairly one-dimensional... until the Wanda-Vision hook-up (which obviously benefited those two characters, too, in terms of growth and exposure). This is when the Quicksilver character started to become interesting, IMO. His nasty side really came to the forefront. Then Pietro's marriage to Crystal connected him to the Inhumans and opened up lots of possibilities (for both of these previously-bland characters). And the icing on the cake: the connection to Magneto. With all this emotional baggage, no wonder Pietro's been good...and bad (sure, Maximus usually has a hand in this but I wouldn't discount Pietro's innate irascibility)...and good again...and so on; I find it perfectly in character. Pietro's intelligence and sense of superiority--as well as his vulnerability (I felt so bad for him in Av. volume 3 when he remarked on his failure as a husband and father)--make this guy a fascinating character. Granted, the bulk of Pietro's growth over the years has taken place in books other than the Avengers (X-Factor, his own limited series, etc.); and he's not an A-Lister in most peoples' eyes; but it's a real treat for me to see him, flaws and all, back with the team in the pages of the Mighty Avengers. You make a pretty good general case for Pietro here, Shar. And he was on my quick list of candidates (that list included, for various reasons, Hank Pym, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Wonderman, Jocasta, and Namor). The main criteria that holds him back, in my opinion, is that he didn't seem to present any liability when he joined the team. He was a pretty solidly capable superhero from square one. The most overtly "super" of the Kooky Quartet, in fact. "Most Improved" can't help but suggest that there was a lot of ground to make up right off the bat. Granted, he learned to sort of fly (by vibrating his legs at super-speed) somewhere around issue #90 or so, I think. Unfortunately, that ability was completely forgotten and abandoned almost immediately. BUT, I do completely agree with your assessment of his growth as a character. And I'm glad that writers in the last 15 years or so have been able to nail him down more consistently. Much like Prof Snape in the Harry Potter series, he presents a rather unlikable, unpleasant, self-important nature that seems to be without sympathetic appeal. AND YET-- there is no questioning that he is without a doubt heroic, self-sacrificing, courageous--- basically all of the core qualities of a true hero, as it were. He just isn't likable (which he himself is aware of). He's singularly un-charismatic. I do remember back when he was in that 2nd or 3rd iteration of X-Factor he explained that, operating in the world was, to him, something like being stuck in the slowest, stupidest line at the Dept of Motor Vehicles. All the time. (It was some similar analogy) Hence, moderate aggravation would be just about the best mood he could ever hope to achieve. While this couldn't possibly excuse a lot of his mistakes, it certainly goes a long way toward explaining them. Still can't get past the creepy, unhealthy torch he seemed to carry for his sister for all of those years, though. Yeesh. (I mean, wouldn't it have seemed kinda. . . squirmy. . . to Stan & Roy as well, when they were writing those early stories?) Whew-- I've had another flurry of long posts--- holding back now for a bit-- HB |
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Post by bobc on Nov 10, 2009 14:47:41 GMT -5
I loved the improvements in the Wasp! It came slowly over decades so it seemed like a natural progression. Remember Jan was under age when she first met Hank Pym, so maturing and eventually becoming a real force in the Avengers doesn't seem far-fetched to me. After reading those early Ant Man stories --it got really, really old that the Wasp was captured every issue. Jan was still slightly flighty (hey! that rhymes!) when her powers got revamped by Byrne, so I think it's reasonable to conclude that her power ramp-up gave her increased confidence.
Re: Pietro--I put him in the same category as Namor--they make any group more interesting because of the mixture of nobility and arrogance, hero and villain, etc. But most improved? Not in the sense I meant when I started this thread, but I can see the argument. He certainly got more interesting over the decades.
I'd put pre-Bendis Wanda near the top of the Most Improved list as well. Did you all know (I know HB already knows) that the first appearance of Wanda's "hex sphere" was in the Hulk, not the Avengers?
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 10, 2009 16:21:12 GMT -5
Did you all know (I know HB already knows) that the first appearance of Wanda's "hex sphere" was in the Hulk, not the Avengers? (sigh) Hulk #128. Scarlet Witch, Black Panther, Quicksilver, Vision, and Goliath Clint. "Maybe if I try using both hands. . . " (or similar paraphrase). Mysterious hex sphere encases the helicopter Hulk's about to throw, and it blows up in his hands. Okay, okay. . . so I knew this off the top of my head and didn't have to check. It's STILL not like I'm a middle-aged geek who's spent most of his life wasting precious intellectual resources or anything. . .maintaining decades-old pop-cultural minutiae in his limited supply of brain cells. It's NOT! (grumble) HB |
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Post by bobc on Nov 10, 2009 17:16:16 GMT -5
Hey join the club HB! I doubt anyone here could point the finger! I'm the same way with the Avengers, prior to say issue #130 or so.
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Post by sharkar on Nov 10, 2009 20:50:11 GMT -5
Did you all know (I know HB already knows) that the first appearance of Wanda's "hex sphere" was in the Hulk, not the Avengers? Why, bob, of course we all knew that! Who among us can ever forget that immortal discussion we had on this very topic just this past July?  To wit: ...at the end of #76, Wanda--who'd somehow lost her powers when she was grazed by a bullet in Avengers #49--was told by Arkon her powers had been restored. So in Hulk #128, Wanda discovers that by gesturing with both hands she can produce her powers--and apparently her power generation is now somewhat visible and she calls it a "hex sphere." (In the past, she only needed to gesture with a hand or even a finger and she could induce entropy.) Roy Thomas was writing both the Avengers and the Hulk at the time... Enough frivolity. On to more important matters: Okay, okay. . . so I knew this off the top of my head and didn't have to check. It's STILL not like I'm a middle-aged geek who's spent most of his life wasting precious intellectual resources or anything. . .maintaining decades-old pop-cultural minutiae in his limited supply of brain cells. Hey join the club HB! I doubt anyone here could point the finger! I'm the same way with the Avengers, prior to say issue #130 or so. Hey, can I join the club too? ;D |
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Post by sharkar on Nov 10, 2009 21:35:49 GMT -5
Granted, he learned to sort of fly (by vibrating his legs at super-speed) somewhere around issue #90 or so, I think. Unfortunately, that ability was completely forgotten and abandoned almost immediately. Actually it was much earlier than that: #43, one of John Buscema's earliest Avengers issues. But you're right that Pietro's new "power" was basically forgotten soon after its introduction; IIRC, he was shown "flying" on the cover of Avengers #45 and when he disposed of a bomb in #46. As far as I recall, that was it (true, he left the team soon after, but even when he returned a couple of years later I don't think used this new power...not for quite some time, anyway). Still can't get past the creepy, unhealthy torch he seemed to carry for his sister for all of those years, though. Yeesh. (I mean, wouldn't it have seemed kinda. . . squirmy. . . to Stan & Roy as well, when they were writing those early stories?) I know what you mean. There's a panel in Av. #19 in which Wanda and Pietro are doing monitor duty; he's in the foreground, and she's in the background reclining on a chaise longue or something, she's not wearing her headdress... But Marvel eventually saw the light and so they hooked up Pietro with Crystal (in the early '70s). This was done in part to dispel the notion that--despite appearances (and readers' suspicions) to the contrary--he was not romantically/sexually interested in his sister. (Though at some point he remarked that Crystal reminded him of Wanda...hmmm...) |
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Post by freedomfighter on Nov 10, 2009 22:57:12 GMT -5
Hey, hey, hey. Maybe you guys haven't dealt with too many Eastern European older brothers/ fathers. They can be very overbearing and also Wanda never seemed to be particularly reticent to accept her brother's protection (altho I understand the Ultimates has pretty much leaned towards an incest angle. bleh...)
In any case, the most improved Avenger in my view is...(well was) two sides of the same coin- Wonder Man and Vision, up to a point. The two of them became a very interesting dynamic. Wonder Man was a cipher, a good guy with standard powers. But dying and rebirth made him interesting, far more than his abilities. And Vision, well he started out just kinda cool, but then became a lot more, a tortured soul. And then he loved Wanda and it became one of the most interesting love stories in comicdom. Who deserves Wanda, the man with the original soul or the synthezoid who doesn't know what he is? Are his thoughts even his? This was an incredibly interesting debate for years. Some writers expanded it, some contracted it, some ignored it but to me it's still one of comics very best love stories ever.
Sadly in the modern era, only Kurt Busiek seemed to understand the poignancy of the Vision's plight, and for some reason we're now stuck with Teen Vision and I'm just depressed over the idiocy in that decision, but if you want the most interesting characters who made each other grow by leaps and bounds because of their relationship, in a very compelling saga, I like Vizh and Wondy...
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 11, 2009 12:41:24 GMT -5
Did you all know (I know HB already knows) that the first appearance of Wanda's "hex sphere" was in the Hulk, not the Avengers? Why, bob, of course we all knew that! Who among us can ever forget that immortal discussion we had on this very topic just this past July? To wit: Enough frivolity. On to more important matters: Hey join the club HB! I doubt anyone here could point the finger! I'm the same way with the Avengers, prior to say issue #130 or so. Hey, can I join the club too? ;D I thought that reminiscence had a familiar feel to it. . . Great Jumping Codfish, Shar-- how could you join the club? I think we've already inducted you as our patron saint! I'm sure we're supposed to be giving you offerings or tribute or something. . . (heh) HB |
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 11, 2009 12:50:11 GMT -5
Hey, hey, hey. Maybe you guys haven't dealt with too many Eastern European older brothers/ fathers. They can be very overbearing and also Wanda never seemed to be particularly reticent to accept her brother's protection (altho I understand the Ultimates has pretty much leaned towards an incest angle. bleh...) In any case, the most improved Avenger in my view is...(well was) two sides of the same coin- Wonder Man and Vision, up to a point. The two of them became a very interesting dynamic. Wonder Man was a cipher, a good guy with standard powers. But dying and rebirth made him interesting, far more than his abilities. And Vision, well he started out just kinda cool, but then became a lot more, a tortured soul. And then he loved Wanda and it became one of the most interesting love stories in comicdom. Who deserves Wanda, the man with the original soul or the synthezoid who doesn't know what he is? Are his thoughts even his? This was an incredibly interesting debate for years. Some writers expanded it, some contracted it, some ignored it but to me it's still one of comics very best love stories ever. Sadly in the modern era, only Kurt Busiek seemed to understand the poignancy of the Vision's plight, and for some reason we're now stuck with Teen Vision and I'm just depressed over the idiocy in that decision, but if you want the most interesting characters who made each other grow by leaps and bounds because of their relationship, in a very compelling saga, I like Vizh and Wondy... You've come up with a good qualifier here, FF. "Most Improved" doesn't necessarily mean that the "improved" status has had to remain forever intact once it was achieved. I do think the Vision particularly fits very well into those parameters. An absolute mainstay & the center of the team for many years, after starting out as basically a weapon for Ultron. The downfall during these later years doesn't really have to have to diminish that at all. HB |
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Post by bobc on Nov 11, 2009 14:40:28 GMT -5
Okay--let me define the term "Most Improved" as the Avenger who grew to be a major asset to the team, from meager beginnings. I meant in a battle sense, not in the sense of character development.
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Post by humanbelly on Nov 11, 2009 15:01:12 GMT -5
Okay--let me define the term "Most Improved" as the Avenger who grew to be a major asset to the team, from meager beginnings. I meant in a battle sense, not in the sense of character development. Okay, that simplies it. Although I think the list stays much the same: 1) Wasp 2) Scarlet Witch 3) Hawkeye 4) Wonder Man 5) Jocasta (maybe) HB |
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Post by starfoxxx on Nov 11, 2009 15:54:00 GMT -5
and for some reason we're now stuck with Teen Vision There was a time when I bought just about EVERY Avengers appearance in any Marvel Title (it was called the 1980s)...... but now with the New, and Dark, and blah,blah,blah Avengers.....well, I'm not buying EVERYTHING Avengers (or what some writers consider Avengers) by any means..... so maybe the Assembled can help me out with a question.... I'm reading and enjoying Cap: Reborn, and the Vision appears in issue#4. So is this the TEEN Vision?  He seems like the old Vizh to me (well, judging by this ish), and he seems to have the memories of the old Vizh, so what's the deal?? |
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Post by bobc on Nov 12, 2009 16:30:19 GMT -5
Well not to feed into the insanity/stupidity, but the Vision was never born, so I am trying to figure out how he could suddenly be a teenager. Sigh. That is just stupid. Even for bad comics.
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comaboy
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 34
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Post by comaboy on Nov 13, 2009 9:20:54 GMT -5
Sadly in the modern era, only Kurt Busiek seemed to understand the poignancy of the Vision's plight, While I agree with you I feel as though Kurt largely didn't know what to do with the Vision. He spent large chunks of the Busiek run on the sidelines or missing all together. I don't know if this was because the Vision's powers were seen as redundant given who else was on the team at the time or because he didn't want to retread old story lines. The current Vision as written by Heinberg I like, what's happened to him since I'm much more disappointed with. And to get back to the thread's actual topic, , my vote is for the Wasp largely for all the reasons enumerated above. The Scarlet Witch is a close second. |
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Post by bobc on Nov 13, 2009 10:12:53 GMT -5
I agree Wanda is number two
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Post by scottharris on Nov 13, 2009 13:41:02 GMT -5
Dave, I have to disagree with you about Captain Monica. I suspect it's partially because of the different eras we started reading in (Monica was already on the team when I began reading Avengers), but I have always felt her development was well handled by Stern. When she joins, she's very hesitant, takes a back seat as she learns, etc. Over time she develops into a full-fledged, solid member of the team (say, around when I started reading, in #256 when she's just gotten stuck in space and has to deal with Nebula's space pirates) and eventually gains enough confidence to become team leader. But even then, she's still a new team leader and is shown making mistakes and learning on the job in the Olympian arc (#281-285) for example.
I understand the comparison you are making, but for me she is more comparable to the Vision under Roy Thomas.
As for her abrupt dismissal from the team (and relevance) I have to stand up for Simonson, because this plot point was editorially mandated by Mark Gruenwald.
On a different note, I also want to take issue with sharkar's (probably widespread) opinion that Vision's relationship with Scarlet Witch "benefited those two characters, too, in terms of growth and exposure". When Assembled 3 comes out you'll see more of my opinion on this, but in my book, Wanda is a giant anchor around Vision's neck and I think the character was much better off without her. Instead of getting married, I really wish he had decided to break off their relationship after his flirtation with Mantis showed him there were other fish in the sea, because Wanda has been nothing but bad news for him and his character ever since.
Finally, the current Vision has all of the original Vision's memories (as they were downloaded into his current body) but he retains no emotional connection to them (much like when he was reborn as the white Vision under Byrne). He acts like a teenager because he used Iron Lad's brain patterns as the basis of his personality at the end of the first Young Avengers arc. The fact that Vision has the same brain patterns and (as we have seen with Wonder Man over the years) therefore similar emotional tendencies as Kang is something that has been completely ignored so far and just one a dozens of great Vision story possibilities created by Heinberg that have been totally forgotten in favor of this teen romance Jonas Brother nonsense.
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comaboy
Great Lakes Avenger
Posts: 34
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Post by comaboy on Nov 13, 2009 15:08:01 GMT -5
When Assembled 3 comes out you'll see more of my opinion on this, but in my book, Wanda is a giant anchor around Vision's neck and I think the character was much better off without her. I think this might make for a good thread all on its own as I'd be interested in hearing the reasoning behind the statement. |
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He seems like the old Vizh to me (well, judging by this ish), and he seems to have the memories of the old Vizh, so what's the deal??